"My words are the words of my father, and the words of my father are the words of my grandfather, and the words of my grandfather are the words of my great grandfathers, Imam al-Hasan and Imam al-Husayn, and their words are the words of Imam Ali, and the words of Imam Ali are the words of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.S.) and (finally) the words of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are the words of Allah (God) the Almighty, the Great."
Imam Jaffer Al-Sadiq (A.S.), Usul al-Kafi, Book 2, Chapter 17, Tradition 14
Who could be considered a Muslim
Ya Ali Madad.
it means the words of Imam are the word Allah from the conclusive take away from above posting.
Allah speaks in parables says Quran.
Even most Imam reply or say in parables and not straight point answer
when asked specifically on their status as GOD and rebirth when speaking in public domain or gathering.
It is good to see tret using farman of Imam Jaffer Sadiq who says
his words are the words of Allah thru lineage strategy.But shying from the same from qasidas and more latter farmans of Imam Aga ali shah n SMS.
Tariqati cannot run awy from haqiqat but enter it searching deep into Imam's
Farman and Ayats and accept is as 100% true and NOT with if but or said as a joke etc.
The central theme of Ismailis is IMAAN of ALI within them
it means the words of Imam are the word Allah from the conclusive take away from above posting.
Allah speaks in parables says Quran.
Even most Imam reply or say in parables and not straight point answer
when asked specifically on their status as GOD and rebirth when speaking in public domain or gathering.
It is good to see tret using farman of Imam Jaffer Sadiq who says
his words are the words of Allah thru lineage strategy.But shying from the same from qasidas and more latter farmans of Imam Aga ali shah n SMS.
Tariqati cannot run awy from haqiqat but enter it searching deep into Imam's
Farman and Ayats and accept is as 100% true and NOT with if but or said as a joke etc.
The central theme of Ismailis is IMAAN of ALI within them
I agree. In Qur'an spiritual matters are explained in parables and symbolism and not straight forward. I think that's the point. I think it's for us to contemplate and search to findout.nuseri wrote:Allah speaks in parables says Quran.
Even most Imam reply or say in parables and not straight point answer
If it wasn't for us to findout the truth, then God would have said it straight and not in parables. Everyone would reflect on the words of God and Imam differently, and that's totally fine.
To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.
In which other religious scriptures is ALI mentioned or referred.
please put it in few lines.
when you use word HZ (hazarat ALI) is refers to living first imam of the past.
the word hazrat is use to mention first physical tenure of Imam Ali and when you use the standalone word 'ALI' only it means the same God of all religions.
can anybody post sermon of Imam Jaffer sadiq on which he that this word is above all the names of the Gods taken by Humanity.
to tret: Ya Ali Madad.
as said by Albert Einstein.
" For any issue if a person can explain it simply,it means he has understood it.
If that person has not explained it simply it means that person has NOT understood the issue well/at all in the first place."
Please frame this and keep it.
It may change your intent,content and direction of all your new postings.
In which other religious scriptures is ALI mentioned or referred.
please put it in few lines.
when you use word HZ (hazarat ALI) is refers to living first imam of the past.
the word hazrat is use to mention first physical tenure of Imam Ali and when you use the standalone word 'ALI' only it means the same God of all religions.
can anybody post sermon of Imam Jaffer sadiq on which he that this word is above all the names of the Gods taken by Humanity.
to tret: Ya Ali Madad.
as said by Albert Einstein.
" For any issue if a person can explain it simply,it means he has understood it.
If that person has not explained it simply it means that person has NOT understood the issue well/at all in the first place."
Please frame this and keep it.
It may change your intent,content and direction of all your new postings.
First, I don't see what's the relevance of albert einstein in here... lolnuseri wrote:
to tret: Ya Ali Madad.
as said by Albert Einstein.
" For any issue if a person can explain it simply,it means he has understood it.
If that person has not explained it simply it means that person has NOT understood the issue well/at all in the first place."
Please frame this and keep it.
It may change your intent,content and direction of all your new postings.
Second, I'd rather frame the sayings and teachings of our Imams rather than any tom, dick, harry, according to your own slang...
.I'd like to challenge albert's saying with MHI's Farmaan.
The Divine Intellect, Aql-i Kull, both transcends and informs the human intellect. It is this Intellect which enables man to strive towards two aims dictated by the faith: that he should reflect upon the environment Allah has given him and that he should know himself. It is the Light of the Intellect which distinguishes the complete human being from the human animal, and developing that intellect requires free inquiry. The man of faith, who fails to pursue intellectual search is likely to have only a limited comprehension of Allah's creation. Indeed, it is man's intellect that enables him to expand his vision of that creation. - (Aga Khan IV, AKU Convocation Speech, Karachi, Pakistan, November 11, 1985)
I highlighted and underlined keywords to stick to mind. I suggest you frame this and hopefully it might change your perception of life as a whole.
Don't get me wrong albert was a very fine scientist, but I don't compare his sayings even one bit with our Imams' teachings. Sorry can't frame it.
Third, I' want to ask you a very simple question, by quoting your own statement, that "God and Imam speaks in parable". Why God and Imam speaks in parable and make everyone to think and contemplate? Why not laying it down stright forward and use simple language? Some food for thought.
To tret:
Farmans of MHI and past imams are to be framed and kept not speeches.
they can be of academic interest to audience at large.
Nothing to go ga ga over it excerpts.
my lost post was to not the sermon visavis saying of Einstein.
you again misunderstood the message.
A scholar or a Sufi main aim or objective is to give the message of parables or Baatin of Quran n Imams
to to believers n non belivers to SIMPLE layman language.
because in the simplicity of composing the poems n sermons by past Pirs/Dais output has made us Ismailis today.
if they went to use same parable and made complicated fancy messages to then audience,there would by near zero Ismailis today.
This message for not per se to Imam jaffer sadiq sayings.
It was for most of your posting trying to make fancy to read to un warranted lines ,which makes one feel that you your are posting garbled message not understood by you in first place.
now reply in simple one:
does the saying of Imam Jaffer Sadiq posted:
A. to show his status as important Imam to readers using his name make their POV.
B.to show your conviction(?) with this saying that Imam= Allah.
I used his name that it does not matter how many X time Imam JS prayed,we Ismailis have to follow what is MHI farman for Dua today for us.not his speeches not whether he himself prays X times a day.
that is Imaan.
Following HIS farman in toto is Imaan.
and his speeches can by tom dick n harry of the world.
Here is one point agenda by demonized Shariati how from some trying to impress upon old data of Imams( 1000+ years old).that Ismaili should
follow Imam no 1 or 5 period and are strayed with present Imam of the time.
Unless that witch is not cut down to size by simply not accepting any rubbish (btw there is no legal record of it) for medieval ages n pull compulsive suckers on 5 stinking candles in debate going over 15 pages
over 20 times in last few years.
She feel you are suckers for as she is trying to seduce you as she is aware of your faith level very close to hers.Others wont even spit at her face forget getting seduced by her postings.
here is a understanding in a joking way of breaking the word 'SHARIAT'
it is seven letters word.
we can break it into two letter+ one letter+ four to get sense of it.
it can be.
'AR A SHIT'.
Sound funny but for me I firmly believe they are one.
Farmans of MHI and past imams are to be framed and kept not speeches.
they can be of academic interest to audience at large.
Nothing to go ga ga over it excerpts.
my lost post was to not the sermon visavis saying of Einstein.
you again misunderstood the message.
A scholar or a Sufi main aim or objective is to give the message of parables or Baatin of Quran n Imams
to to believers n non belivers to SIMPLE layman language.
because in the simplicity of composing the poems n sermons by past Pirs/Dais output has made us Ismailis today.
if they went to use same parable and made complicated fancy messages to then audience,there would by near zero Ismailis today.
This message for not per se to Imam jaffer sadiq sayings.
It was for most of your posting trying to make fancy to read to un warranted lines ,which makes one feel that you your are posting garbled message not understood by you in first place.
now reply in simple one:
does the saying of Imam Jaffer Sadiq posted:
A. to show his status as important Imam to readers using his name make their POV.
B.to show your conviction(?) with this saying that Imam= Allah.
I used his name that it does not matter how many X time Imam JS prayed,we Ismailis have to follow what is MHI farman for Dua today for us.not his speeches not whether he himself prays X times a day.
that is Imaan.
Following HIS farman in toto is Imaan.
and his speeches can by tom dick n harry of the world.
Here is one point agenda by demonized Shariati how from some trying to impress upon old data of Imams( 1000+ years old).that Ismaili should
follow Imam no 1 or 5 period and are strayed with present Imam of the time.
Unless that witch is not cut down to size by simply not accepting any rubbish (btw there is no legal record of it) for medieval ages n pull compulsive suckers on 5 stinking candles in debate going over 15 pages
over 20 times in last few years.
She feel you are suckers for as she is trying to seduce you as she is aware of your faith level very close to hers.Others wont even spit at her face forget getting seduced by her postings.
here is a understanding in a joking way of breaking the word 'SHARIAT'
it is seven letters word.
we can break it into two letter+ one letter+ four to get sense of it.
it can be.
'AR A SHIT'.
Sound funny but for me I firmly believe they are one.
Allah has spoken and it is recorded in Quran both in Parables and straightforward understandable language. It was Prophet's job to explain parables and I am sure he did in his time to Sahabas.tret
Third, I' want to ask you a very simple question, by quoting your own statement, that "God and Imam speaks in parable". Why God and Imam speaks in parable and make everyone to think and contemplate? Why not laying it down stright forward and use simple language? Some food for thought.
We are warned not to dwells too much on Parables and leave it to learned scholars and sages. Ismaili religion claims it is their Imam's role to extract wisdom from Quran and dispense it to Murids in the form of teachings and Farmans.
Do we really need more "goobli gook" from anybody? Certainly not from a Ali worshipper.
Salaam
To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
Your faith is screwed up upto 92.5% level.with 85% of fake hadiths and
100% false tafseer by quacks.
If it is one's faith, then you very well know that faith n belief of Ismailis is on the Imam of time and his Farmans.( no dead entities blah blah blah)
This has nothing to do with you
then what are you doing on this site?
Let them enjoy their faith as well as their fate.
while your suffering make you post here.
better commit suicide if you cannot see others enjoy their faith with zeal
passion n pride.
All my interpretation reaches Imam,as leaders know who I am.
ALI know that Nuseri is his hitman and most loyal attorney among
many many Ismailis other than Ahle Bayt living in present times.
When I draw my sword in cause of ALI,I spare no blood.
You better sleep tight n seduce the jihadis for your frustration.
Taking me on will be hell ride for you.
Your faith is screwed up upto 92.5% level.with 85% of fake hadiths and
100% false tafseer by quacks.
If it is one's faith, then you very well know that faith n belief of Ismailis is on the Imam of time and his Farmans.( no dead entities blah blah blah)
This has nothing to do with you
then what are you doing on this site?
Let them enjoy their faith as well as their fate.
while your suffering make you post here.
better commit suicide if you cannot see others enjoy their faith with zeal
passion n pride.
All my interpretation reaches Imam,as leaders know who I am.
ALI know that Nuseri is his hitman and most loyal attorney among
many many Ismailis other than Ahle Bayt living in present times.
When I draw my sword in cause of ALI,I spare no blood.
You better sleep tight n seduce the jihadis for your frustration.
Taking me on will be hell ride for you.
zznoor wrote:Allah has spoken and it is recorded in Quran both in Parables and straightforward understandable language. It was Prophet's job to explain parables and I am sure he did in his time to Sahabas.tret
Third, I' want to ask you a very simple question, by quoting your own statement, that "God and Imam speaks in parable". Why God and Imam speaks in parable and make everyone to think and contemplate? Why not laying it down stright forward and use simple language? Some food for thought.
We are warned not to dwells too much on Parables and leave it to learned scholars and sages. Ismaili religion claims it is their Imam's role to extract wisdom from Quran and dispense it to Murids in the form of teachings and Farmans.
Do we really need more "goobli gook" from anybody? Certainly not from a Ali worshipper.
Salaam
Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq has said that in Qur'an there are 4 categories of Ayats.
1. Ebarat - Declarative statements = This is for general people, like you and I and are stright forward.
2. Esharat - hints = This is for special group of people such as Da'i/Hujjats etc... General people may or may not understand it.
3. Lataif - Parables or symbolism = this is for Awlia [or friends of God -- Imams and Prophets are certainly Awlia of the God].
4. Aqaiq - the Truth or reality = This is only for the Prophets and Imams.
Prophet's duty was to deliver the message of God. Imam's duty is to deliver the ta'wil of these parables.
nuseri wrote:To tret:
Farmans of MHI and past imams are to be framed and kept not speeches.
they can be of academic interest to audience at large.
Nothing to go ga ga over it excerpts.
my lost post was to not the sermon visavis saying of Einstein.
you again misunderstood the message.
A scholar or a Sufi main aim or objective is to give the message of parables or Baatin of Quran n Imams
to to believers n non belivers to SIMPLE layman language.
because in the simplicity of composing the poems n sermons by past Pirs/Dais output has made us Ismailis today.
if they went to use same parable and made complicated fancy messages to then audience,there would by near zero Ismailis today.
This message for not per se to Imam jaffer sadiq sayings.
It was for most of your posting trying to make fancy to read to un warranted lines ,which makes one feel that you your are posting garbled message not understood by you in first place.
now reply in simple one:
does the saying of Imam Jaffer Sadiq posted:
A. to show his status as important Imam to readers using his name make their POV.
B.to show your conviction(?) with this saying that Imam= Allah.
I used his name that it does not matter how many X time Imam JS prayed,we Ismailis have to follow what is MHI farman for Dua today for us.not his speeches not whether he himself prays X times a day.
that is Imaan.
Following HIS farman in toto is Imaan.
and his speeches can by tom dick n harry of the world.
Here is one point agenda by demonized Shariati how from some trying to impress upon old data of Imams( 1000+ years old).that Ismaili should
follow Imam no 1 or 5 period and are strayed with present Imam of the time.
Unless that witch is not cut down to size by simply not accepting any rubbish (btw there is no legal record of it) for medieval ages n pull compulsive suckers on 5 stinking candles in debate going over 15 pages
over 20 times in last few years.
She feel you are suckers for as she is trying to seduce you as she is aware of your faith level very close to hers.Others wont even spit at her face forget getting seduced by her postings.
here is a understanding in a joking way of breaking the word 'SHARIAT'
it is seven letters word.
we can break it into two letter+ one letter+ four to get sense of it.
it can be.
'AR A SHIT'.
Sound funny but for me I firmly believe they are one.
I think there's a difference between how you see things and how I do.
For you, speeches of MHI is of no importance, but only Farmaans are. To me, they are both equally important, especially in today's day and age, where the activities of MHI extends beyond our Jama'at. Today, MHI is involved with the entire world and I believe that every word of MHI, be it speech or Farmaan carries a very deep meaning and must not be considered of no importance as you done so.
Anyways, I don't really want to go down this avenue with you my friend, as I have kind of feeling where we will end up like last time. But nonetheless I wish you will and best of luck.
As for zznoor seducing me... I like the humor
Maula Ali says give your enemy 100 reason to become your friend, but don't give your friend even a single reason to become your enemy.
I don't allow myself to give you even a single reason to become my enemy, because I consider you as friend, not only that but a spiritual brother. However, I give zznoor more than 100 reason to become our friend.
Some copy paste from gents consider the following cannonical prayer from the Christian Faith
Psalms 23
The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell[a] in the house of the Lord
Forever.
ZZnoor do you understand your cannonical prayers? Do you understand their structure why the namazes and the specific texts of the namaz is organized in a particular way? The Quran orders you to believe in Psalms and the Torah. Have you read those books?
Psalms 23
The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell[a] in the house of the Lord
Forever.
ZZnoor do you understand your cannonical prayers? Do you understand their structure why the namazes and the specific texts of the namaz is organized in a particular way? The Quran orders you to believe in Psalms and the Torah. Have you read those books?
This is you see it. Eternal Imam shall always exist, and shall always manifest into manifest Imam. It's really hard even impossible to explain this to you, so I save my and your time. Besides it's your opinion alone.zznoor wrote: 48 imams have come and gone. 49 has been around for long time.
According to who? According to you? and why?zznoor wrote: Every parable should have been explained with one standard text.
Imams have failed in their job
The Tah'wil is done according to time and space when needed. I think this has been mentioned to you more than once, but you don't even try to listen.
zznoor wrote:Can you post Tahwil of just couple of Ayas by present Imamtret
According to who? According to you? and why?
The Tah'wil is done according to time and space when needed. I think this has been mentioned to you more than once, but you don't even try to listen.
And why would I do that?
FYI, it comes to us in form of Farameen to guide us through and according to time. You just have to take my words. There's not really much I can do.
If Torah and Psalms were still valid, there was no need of Quran reevaluation top Prophet Muhammad. I need not read those books since they were corrupted.ZZnoor do you understand your cannonical prayers? Do you understand their structure why the namazes and the specific texts of the namaz is organized in a particular way? The Quran orders you to believe in Psalms and the Torah. Have you read those books?
Do you really believe in Namaz/salat. Read reams of post on it on Ismaili.net.
Yep! go ahead and laugh as much as can just for today only because tomorrow will be our day for laugh and hiding time for you!! hope you have not forget what I told you couple days ago i.e. who can consider Muslim? well I already put my friend's comments about men, but tomorrow I will put who can consider Muslim in ladies? I had meeting with my Sunny turned no-religion friend yesterday all day and he told me some exciting unheard true facst about Muslim ladies, so keep your finger crossed!!!!!I have to laugh at this
Hope Admin do not delete my tomorrow's post.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
It is apparent for your posts that you are not here to learn but to spread your idiotic beliefs in god and his messages.
I just told you to go read the works of Imam Jafer As Sadiq[as] and here you are arguing with an equally confused soul i.e Nuseri
Noor, as each day passes... I see you are sinking deep into the swamp of hatred for ismailis and their imams.Can you post Tahwil of just couple of Ayas by present Imam
It is apparent for your posts that you are not here to learn but to spread your idiotic beliefs in god and his messages.
I just told you to go read the works of Imam Jafer As Sadiq[as] and here you are arguing with an equally confused soul i.e Nuseri
If Torah and Psalms were still valid, there was no need of Quran reevaluation top Prophet Muhammad. I need not read those books since they were corrupted.
Do you really believe in Namaz/salat. Read reams of post on it on Ismaili.net.[/quote]
ZZ consider the following ayats
3-3 He sends down on you the Book in parts with the truth, confirming (the Divine origin of, and the truths still contained by) the Revelations prior to it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel
5-48 We have sent down to you (O Messenger) the Book with the truth (embodying it, and with nothing false in it), confirming (the Divine authorship of and the truths that are still contained by) whatever of the Book was revealed before it, and guarding over (all the true teachings in) it. Judge, then, between them by what God has sent down (to you), and do not follow their desires and caprices away from the truth that has come to you. For each (community to which a Messenger was sent with a Book) have We appointed a clear way of life and a comprehensive system (containing the principles of that way and how to follow it). And if God had so willed, He would surely have made you a single community (following the same way of life and system surrounded by the same conditions throughout all history); but (He willed it otherwise) in order to test you by what He granted to you (and thereby made you subject to a law of progress). Strive, then, together as if competing in good works. To God is the return of all of you, and He will then make you understand (the truth) about what you have differed on.
4-163 We have revealed to you (O Messenger) as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him; and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Prophets who were raised in the tribes, and Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms
Quran was not sent as a replacement for the Psalms, Torah and Bible, merely to complete them. By stating that you donot believe in the Psalms at least by Quranic standards, are saying that you are not a Muslim? After all a Muslim has to believe in everything that God has sent not just bits and pieces.
Also are you denying the Bible and Torah, in which case you are also denying Gods books and his messengers. I thaught that you were a sunni Muslim, but now im wondering whether you are a Muslim at all?
Do you really believe in Namaz/salat. Read reams of post on it on Ismaili.net.[/quote]
ZZ consider the following ayats
3-3 He sends down on you the Book in parts with the truth, confirming (the Divine origin of, and the truths still contained by) the Revelations prior to it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel
5-48 We have sent down to you (O Messenger) the Book with the truth (embodying it, and with nothing false in it), confirming (the Divine authorship of and the truths that are still contained by) whatever of the Book was revealed before it, and guarding over (all the true teachings in) it. Judge, then, between them by what God has sent down (to you), and do not follow their desires and caprices away from the truth that has come to you. For each (community to which a Messenger was sent with a Book) have We appointed a clear way of life and a comprehensive system (containing the principles of that way and how to follow it). And if God had so willed, He would surely have made you a single community (following the same way of life and system surrounded by the same conditions throughout all history); but (He willed it otherwise) in order to test you by what He granted to you (and thereby made you subject to a law of progress). Strive, then, together as if competing in good works. To God is the return of all of you, and He will then make you understand (the truth) about what you have differed on.
4-163 We have revealed to you (O Messenger) as We revealed to Noah and the Prophets after him; and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Prophets who were raised in the tribes, and Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon; and We gave David the Psalms
Quran was not sent as a replacement for the Psalms, Torah and Bible, merely to complete them. By stating that you donot believe in the Psalms at least by Quranic standards, are saying that you are not a Muslim? After all a Muslim has to believe in everything that God has sent not just bits and pieces.
Also are you denying the Bible and Torah, in which case you are also denying Gods books and his messengers. I thaught that you were a sunni Muslim, but now im wondering whether you are a Muslim at all?
@fayaz006
Question : Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?
This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
I ask you to ONLY give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this.
Now when i ask this from a Shia i receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).
Question : Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?
This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
I ask you to ONLY give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this.
Now when i ask this from a Shia i receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams. [Ahmed Ali]
On the day when We shall summon every group along with its leader [Ahmed Raza Khan]
Then think of the Day We shall summon every community with its leader [Abul Ala Maududi]
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; [Mohammad Habib Shakir]
The Day will surely come when We shall summon every people with their leader.[Wahiduddin Khan]
Noor did you ever read suratul Isra ??...Ayah 71 in particular ??? You people manipulated the meaning of Imams...Thank goodness we have few intelligent interpreters who have interpreted the verse with its real meaning :This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams. [Ahmed Ali]
On the day when We shall summon every group along with its leader [Ahmed Raza Khan]
Then think of the Day We shall summon every community with its leader [Abul Ala Maududi]
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; [Mohammad Habib Shakir]
The Day will surely come when We shall summon every people with their leader.[Wahiduddin Khan]
Even after knowing that the discussions are baseless you still wanna do it ????Now when i ask this from a Shia i receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).
Imam al Baqir said that there were 4 parts in the Quran. One part was on History, another on Prophecies and a third on commandments. The last part was on Imamat which is now missing in the Usmani compilation. All that is known in history.zznoor wrote:@fayaz006
Question : Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?
[quote="zznoor"]@fayaz006
Question : Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?
This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
At this point zz im begining to doubt you intentions, but attached are the following ayats
2-124 (You refuse to believe in and follow Muhammad chiefly because Prophethood was not retained with you and so he did not appear amongst you. Now, you surely do admit Abraham’s Prophethood, so) remember that his Lord tested Abraham with commands and ordeals (such as his being thrown into a fire, the destruction of the people of his kinsman Lot, and his being ordered to sacrifice his son Ishmael), and he fulfilled them thoroughly. He said: "Indeed I will make you an imam for all people." He (Abraham) pleaded: "(Will You appoint imams) also from my offspring?" He (his Lord) answered: "(I will appoint from among those who merit it. But) My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.
17-71 On the Day when We will call every human community with its leader: whoever (has followed a leader towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter) is given his Record (of his life) in his right hand – those will read their book with contentment and they will not be wronged by
21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
32:24 And so long as they remained patient (in adversity they met on the path of God) and they had certainty of faith in Our Revelations, We appointed from amongst them Imams (leaders) guiding by Our command (in accordance with Our ordinances)
36:12 Surely it is We Who will bring the dead to life; and We record what they send ahead (to the Hereafter) and what they leave behind (of good and evil). Everything We have written down and kept in a Manifest Imam
In the Quran arabic word imam is used to describe a leader.
You still havent answered my question whether you believe in Quran completely or bits and pieces?
Question : Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?
This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It’s importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
At this point zz im begining to doubt you intentions, but attached are the following ayats
2-124 (You refuse to believe in and follow Muhammad chiefly because Prophethood was not retained with you and so he did not appear amongst you. Now, you surely do admit Abraham’s Prophethood, so) remember that his Lord tested Abraham with commands and ordeals (such as his being thrown into a fire, the destruction of the people of his kinsman Lot, and his being ordered to sacrifice his son Ishmael), and he fulfilled them thoroughly. He said: "Indeed I will make you an imam for all people." He (Abraham) pleaded: "(Will You appoint imams) also from my offspring?" He (his Lord) answered: "(I will appoint from among those who merit it. But) My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.
17-71 On the Day when We will call every human community with its leader: whoever (has followed a leader towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter) is given his Record (of his life) in his right hand – those will read their book with contentment and they will not be wronged by
21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
32:24 And so long as they remained patient (in adversity they met on the path of God) and they had certainty of faith in Our Revelations, We appointed from amongst them Imams (leaders) guiding by Our command (in accordance with Our ordinances)
36:12 Surely it is We Who will bring the dead to life; and We record what they send ahead (to the Hereafter) and what they leave behind (of good and evil). Everything We have written down and kept in a Manifest Imam
In the Quran arabic word imam is used to describe a leader.
You still havent answered my question whether you believe in Quran completely or bits and pieces?
@Admin
I think if all Muslims would follow the Quran completely, they will not be able to get away from the Imamat question. I mean anybody who likes to pick their faith apart would have come across the Philosophical question of whether Imam's are guided by God and does Imamat exists? However sir unfortunately most Muslims simply tow the line, not question their faith and learn about their faith and the result is people that have the mindset of exclusion (im right and everyone else is going to hell).
Alas the Quran should be believed in completely and not cherry picked, and if one does that the only message you come away with is the message of Plurality, ethics and keeping our spiritual life in balance with the material life (Farmans of MHI).
I think if all Muslims would follow the Quran completely, they will not be able to get away from the Imamat question. I mean anybody who likes to pick their faith apart would have come across the Philosophical question of whether Imam's are guided by God and does Imamat exists? However sir unfortunately most Muslims simply tow the line, not question their faith and learn about their faith and the result is people that have the mindset of exclusion (im right and everyone else is going to hell).
Alas the Quran should be believed in completely and not cherry picked, and if one does that the only message you come away with is the message of Plurality, ethics and keeping our spiritual life in balance with the material life (Farmans of MHI).
If Imamat after Prophet SAW was absolutely necessary., don't you think Allah would have very clear command like " establish Salat" or "fast in Ramadan" or "do Wadu or Gusal, or pray Jumma" etc. etc.fayaz006 wrote:@Admin
I think if all Muslims would follow the Quran completely, they will not be able to get away from the Imamat question. I mean anybody who likes to pick their faith apart would have come across the Philosophical question of whether Imam's are guided by God and does Imamat exists? However sir unfortunately most Muslims simply tow the line, not question their faith and learn about their faith and the result is people that have the mindset of exclusion (im right and everyone else is going to hell).
Alas the Quran should be believed in completely and not cherry picked, and if one does that the only message you come away with is the message of Plurality, ethics and keeping our spiritual life in balance with the material life (Farmans of MHI).
So Allah in his wisdom forgot to say like this:
After you O Muhammad there will be leader from your family, generation after generation"
Why were Ansars gathered to elect new Khalif from their group? Didn't they know that Hz Ali was already declared Maula?
Imam Jafer openly preached in Muslim Masjids (there were no Shia, Sunni or Ismaili prayer halls). Was he able to sell Imamat to all except to his Shia?
Why so many contender for Imamat?
Regarding word
Imam
Here is what Yusuf Ali says
I really do not think Ismailis will be able convince other Shia to accept MHI as Imam. Nor majority will accept notion of Imamat.124 Imam:
the primary sense is that of being foremost: hence it may mean:
(1) leader in religion;
(2) leader in congregational prayer;
(3) model, pattern, example;
(4) a book of guidance and instruction ( 11:17 );
(5) a book of evidence or record (36:12). Here, meanings 1 and 3 are implied. In 9:12 the word is applied to leaders of Unbelief or Blasphemy.
Comment on 2:124
ZZ there is an issue with your understanding. You are picking and choosing what to follow from the Quran and you are ignoring the rest. This is either a mistake from you or deliberate. Either way it is not a sign of decent Muslim. Again as per ayat 2-124zznoor wrote:If Imamat after Prophet SAW was absolutely necessary., don't you think Allah would have very clear command like " establish Salat" or "fast in Ramadan" or "do Wadu or Gusal, or pray Jumma" etc. etc.fayaz006 wrote:@Admin
I think if all Muslims would follow the Quran completely, they will not be able to get away from the Imamat question. I mean anybody who likes to pick their faith apart would have come across the Philosophical question of whether Imam's are guided by God and does Imamat exists? However sir unfortunately most Muslims simply tow the line, not question their faith and learn about their faith and the result is people that have the mindset of exclusion (im right and everyone else is going to hell).
Alas the Quran should be believed in completely and not cherry picked, and if one does that the only message you come away with is the message of Plurality, ethics and keeping our spiritual life in balance with the material life (Farmans of MHI).
So Allah in his wisdom forgot to say like this:
After you O Muhammad there will be leader from your family, generation after generation"
Why were Ansars gathered to elect new Khalif from their group? Didn't they know that Hz Ali was already declared Maula?
Imam Jafer openly preached in Muslim Masjids (there were no Shia, Sunni or Ismaili prayer halls). Was he able to sell Imamat to all except to his Shia?
Why so many contender for Imamat?
Regarding word
Imam
Here is what Yusuf Ali saysI really do not think Ismailis will be able convince other Shia to accept MHI as Imam. Nor majority will accept notion of Imamat.124 Imam:
the primary sense is that of being foremost: hence it may mean:
(1) leader in religion;
(2) leader in congregational prayer;
(3) model, pattern, example;
(4) a book of guidance and instruction ( 11:17 );
(5) a book of evidence or record (36:12). Here, meanings 1 and 3 are implied. In 9:12 the word is applied to leaders of Unbelief or Blasphemy.
Comment on 2:124
2-124 (You refuse to believe in and follow Muhammad chiefly because Prophethood was not retained with you and so he did not appear amongst you. Now, you surely do admit Abraham’s Prophethood, so) remember that his Lord tested Abraham with commands and ordeals (such as his being thrown into a fire, the destruction of the people of his kinsman Lot, and his being ordered to sacrifice his son Ishmael), and he fulfilled them thoroughly. He said: "Indeed I will make you an imam for all people." He (Abraham) pleaded: "(Will You appoint imams) also from my offspring?" He (his Lord) answered: "(I will appoint from among those who merit it. But) My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.
Ibrahim A.S was a messenger before Mohammad A.S. He did not decide on his own to become an Imam rather it was God who appointed him. Imamat did not start after Mohammad it started with Adam. It is the Imam as per 17-71, 21:73 who have the express duty to Guide. Messengers do not guide according to the Quran. Mohammad A.S in his capacity as a Guide and Leader of the Ummah was a God appointed Imam. In your response you chose to ignore ayats 17-71 21-73 32-24 36-12. It is true that the Quran mentions Imams who have led their community astray. Do you think they were appointed by God?
Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah. Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S. When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
Also your statements about whether or not God would have mentioned Imamat explicitly smack of arrogance. You don't want to be the one telling God what to do?
As for us convincing other Shias of our religion, quite frankly Ismailis could care less. We have better things to worry about, like bettering our selves as human beings, bettering humanity, so when we die we die like Muslims going home.
ZZ are you a Muslim? Do you believe in the entirety of Quran? I am beginning to doubt that you do.