USA is big on religious freedom.do not surprise if ban on Hejab comes in USA.
If Muslimah wants to wear Hijab, why does it bother anybody?
BTW there is Hijab thread somewhere. Let's discuss it there.
Who could be considered a Muslim
This is example of religious tolerance in USA
Under new rules, Muslim inmates in L.A. County jails observe Ramadan
-http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame. ... ceID=78969
Under new rules, Muslim inmates in L.A. County jails observe Ramadan
-http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame. ... ceID=78969
Laws in USA changes rapidly, and quick, laws changes in USA almost every other days!! so, be patience, Ban on Hejab is coming, this is my own prediction and I, do not see it is too far!!! it will happen pretty soon off course very soon, write down in your notes that , one of day you have to through away your smelly Hejab in USA, which spread bad odors from the bodies of " Burkhas wearing females and you are one of them!!!
BTW:- this is my own thoughts, it has nothing to do with my ' best friend!!! who once considered himself as a strict SUNNY but now a days, he has" no religion" at all!!!
I will put his views after my Wednesday meeting with him. and I promise you, it will burn you from head to tow.
BTW:- this is my own thoughts, it has nothing to do with my ' best friend!!! who once considered himself as a strict SUNNY but now a days, he has" no religion" at all!!!
I will put his views after my Wednesday meeting with him. and I promise you, it will burn you from head to tow.There are mellians of non observant Muslims in this world. They do not bother me. There are 2 indo pak and 3 Iranians in my office. Muslim in name only.agakhani wrote:
[/b] BTW:- this is my own thoughts, it has nothing to do with my ' best friend!!! who once considered himself as a strict SUNNY but now a days, he has" no religion" at all!!!
I worry about me only.
It might not bother you at least now! but it will soon.
By the way Wednesday is not far in my thinking!! just couple of days away and as I told you earlier that be ready for bombshell, which will burned you down from the top part your smelly hiaab to to your smelly foot knees because of hijab, Remember this Hijab is old ritual it is not necessary in this modern, advance and rapidly changing worlds where Burkhas are turning in " BIKINI " fashions very rapidly not in USA only but even in Muslim worlds!!! will you like to see that bikini pictures of Muslim women, whose ancestor were strict Muslims
By the way Wednesday is not far in my thinking!! just couple of days away and as I told you earlier that be ready for bombshell, which will burned you down from the top part your smelly hiaab to to your smelly foot knees because of hijab, Remember this Hijab is old ritual it is not necessary in this modern, advance and rapidly changing worlds where Burkhas are turning in " BIKINI " fashions very rapidly not in USA only but even in Muslim worlds!!! will you like to see that bikini pictures of Muslim women, whose ancestor were strict Muslims
Hey Agakhani you are kind of getting personal there with zznoor. Any way Shiraz you are correct that i have my mind kind of made however i still wanted there to be a discussion, since this topic kind of divides the Ummah.
ZZnoor, of all the ayats that you have posted there is not one reference to a true Muslim saying the Shahada to be called or considered a true muslim in God's eyes. So based on the ayats that you have provided, would you change your view that any person be it of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or Hindu (there are hindu traditions that believe in only One God) could be considered a Muslim (one who submits to God), if they are regular in their prayers and are very ethical people. I know of Jesuit priest who are a sect of Catholic Christians, who study the Quran as part of their education. Also zz if still hang on to your belief of the Shahada defining a true Muslim, i would like to know why?
Thanks
ZZnoor, of all the ayats that you have posted there is not one reference to a true Muslim saying the Shahada to be called or considered a true muslim in God's eyes. So based on the ayats that you have provided, would you change your view that any person be it of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or Hindu (there are hindu traditions that believe in only One God) could be considered a Muslim (one who submits to God), if they are regular in their prayers and are very ethical people. I know of Jesuit priest who are a sect of Catholic Christians, who study the Quran as part of their education. Also zz if still hang on to your belief of the Shahada defining a true Muslim, i would like to know why?
Thanks
Hello ZZnoor,
There are no Farmans in the Quran ordering any women to cover their faces, be it prophet's wives or any Muslim women. The ayat you are referring to is as follows
33:32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the other women, provided that you keep from disobedience to God in reverence for Him and piety (and therefore act with awareness of your special status). So (even more than other believing women) do not be complaisant in your speech (when addressing men), lest he in whose heart is a disease should be moved to desire, but speak in an honorable way.
33:33 And (prefer to) remain in your homes (unless there is a need. If you do go out for a need) do not go out flaunting your charms as (women used to do) in the former times of Ignorance. And establish the Prayer in conformity with its conditions, and pay the Prescribed Purifying Alms, and obey God and His Messenger (in whatever they command). God only wills to remove from you, O members of the (Prophet’s) household, all that may be loathsome, and to purify you to the utmost of purity.
Remember that the ayat addresses only the wives of the prophet, based on the time round about 600 ad. The Quran did not wish the Prophet's wives to be involved in the political prophets since it could sully them and potentially bring dishonor to their names. Aisha actually went to war against Aly (A.S). Therefore there has never been an ayat that has ordered to wear veil, that has been the biggest myth in the Muslim world.
There are no Farmans in the Quran ordering any women to cover their faces, be it prophet's wives or any Muslim women. The ayat you are referring to is as follows
33:32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the other women, provided that you keep from disobedience to God in reverence for Him and piety (and therefore act with awareness of your special status). So (even more than other believing women) do not be complaisant in your speech (when addressing men), lest he in whose heart is a disease should be moved to desire, but speak in an honorable way.
33:33 And (prefer to) remain in your homes (unless there is a need. If you do go out for a need) do not go out flaunting your charms as (women used to do) in the former times of Ignorance. And establish the Prayer in conformity with its conditions, and pay the Prescribed Purifying Alms, and obey God and His Messenger (in whatever they command). God only wills to remove from you, O members of the (Prophet’s) household, all that may be loathsome, and to purify you to the utmost of purity.
Remember that the ayat addresses only the wives of the prophet, based on the time round about 600 ad. The Quran did not wish the Prophet's wives to be involved in the political prophets since it could sully them and potentially bring dishonor to their names. Aisha actually went to war against Aly (A.S). Therefore there has never been an ayat that has ordered to wear veil, that has been the biggest myth in the Muslim world.
Shahada falls under "Muslim creed and commandments"
Just by taking Shahada it does not make you practicing Muslim.
There are 5 founding principle (for Sunni) and 6 belief.
Christian and Jews have different way to pray.
Quran is basic guide for Muslims.
Two element of Shahada is in Quran 2:163 and 48:29
Prophetic Sunnah supplements and/ or explains Quranic commands.
Just by taking Shahada it does not make you practicing Muslim.
There are 5 founding principle (for Sunni) and 6 belief.
Christian and Jews have different way to pray.
Quran is basic guide for Muslims.
Two element of Shahada is in Quran 2:163 and 48:29
Prophetic Sunnah supplements and/ or explains Quranic commands.
Who could be considered Muslim?
I will quote Prophet on that
From
Shahi Bukhari
Book of prayers (Salat)
Hadith no: 386
Narrated / Authority of: Anas bin Malik
I will quote Prophet on that
From
Shahi Bukhari
Book of prayers (Salat)
Hadith no: 386
Narrated / Authority of: Anas bin Malik
Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah's and His Apostle's protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection."
It is not hidden in this forum that I am behind specially two persons one you mentioned in your above post and other is her puppet Tret.Hey Agakhani you are kind of getting personal there with zznoor
My job is Keep them and others readers straight in this forum and for this whenever necessary arise I criticise them I even criticize Admin, Kbhai , Nuseri and others whenever I see they are going out of tracts
As long ZZNoor's concern she is big a criticizer and lier in this forum when criticism's on Ismailism are concern! she had heavily criticized Ismaili sect, our Imam and our tradition in past and she is still doing and telling that she is not saying any thing bad!! what a big lie she telling us??? BTW:- I have collected all his criticism you may not know but once she was an Ismaili and turned in Sunnism. and teaches us what is right and what is wrong!!!?? shame to her.
ZZnoor personally speaking I don't put much faith in hadiths since their authenticity are suspect. Any time you write something down almost two hundred years after it was said is liable to be off. That being said we shall agree to disagree on the shahada issue. Although if you read the Quran thoroughly in God's eyes a very ethical Agnostic is Muslim because the Quran defines service to mankind, helping the poor etc as Prayer. There is a minority movement in Sunni Islam that doesn't believe in any hadiths since authenticity cannot be verified.
On your topic of Hejab in Quran ill again make the point, there no ayats, or surahs to support the claim that Quran wants women to cover up. There are several Ayats that demand modesty in dressing from both men and women but none that require a women to wear a veil. The closest ayat that comes to mind is as follows,
33-59 O (most illustrious) Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters, as well as the women (wives and daughters) of the believers, to draw over themselves some part of their outer garments (when outside their homes and when before men whom they are not forbidden to marry because of blood relation). This is better and more convenient for them to be recognized (and respected for their decency and decorum) and not harrassed. God is indeed All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
You need to learn the history of preislamic Arabia in order to get a context for the ayat. Muslims were a minority and plenty of men and women in that time were engaged in prosititution and other unsavory social habits. This ayat was to distinguish and separate believing women from the rest and nothing more.
You need to read and understand the Quran on your own rather than rely on others interpretation. Again the written Quran is only a book. Therefore the time in which it was compiled and the history of every single ayat matters.
Thanks
On your topic of Hejab in Quran ill again make the point, there no ayats, or surahs to support the claim that Quran wants women to cover up. There are several Ayats that demand modesty in dressing from both men and women but none that require a women to wear a veil. The closest ayat that comes to mind is as follows,
33-59 O (most illustrious) Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters, as well as the women (wives and daughters) of the believers, to draw over themselves some part of their outer garments (when outside their homes and when before men whom they are not forbidden to marry because of blood relation). This is better and more convenient for them to be recognized (and respected for their decency and decorum) and not harrassed. God is indeed All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
You need to learn the history of preislamic Arabia in order to get a context for the ayat. Muslims were a minority and plenty of men and women in that time were engaged in prosititution and other unsavory social habits. This ayat was to distinguish and separate believing women from the rest and nothing more.
You need to read and understand the Quran on your own rather than rely on others interpretation. Again the written Quran is only a book. Therefore the time in which it was compiled and the history of every single ayat matters.
Thanks
zznoor wrote:Does that include Gadhir and hadith in praise of Hz Ali?ZZnoor personally speaking I don't put much faith in hadiths since their authenticity are suspect. Any time you write something down almost two hundred years after it was said is liable to be off.
my take on ahadis is that those ahadis that are aligned with the Qur'an and Qur'an's teachings are credible. But everyone know -- including ahl-e-sunnah -- that there are quite a lot of unauthentic and un-credible hadis that are around. If we use common sense most of unauthentic hadis can not be associated with our beloved Prophet and His teachings. It's hard to say which one's authentic which one isn't, since ahadis are third person's narration about the Prophet.
i.e. there's a hadis that reports that beloved Prophet said that invite people to Islam and if they refuse, kill them.
I am paraphrasing this, and don't know the exact wording, but we can not simply associate these types of hadis to the Prophet. Because Qur'an teaches us that there is no compulsion in Islam and the Prophet would never say such thing.
There are contradictory Hadiths, so many of them.
Those who attempt to say Hadiths are infallible should go back to the drawing board and educate themselves on the subject.
In fact very few hadith would be authentic. And they were for their time. I have no problem with people who prefer Toyota over Honda or Mercedez or BMW. But today we live in different times. As I said, those who prefer to take camels should not live on North Pole or attempt inter-galactic travel. That would be haram for them. let them live in the past.
Those who attempt to say Hadiths are infallible should go back to the drawing board and educate themselves on the subject.
In fact very few hadith would be authentic. And they were for their time. I have no problem with people who prefer Toyota over Honda or Mercedez or BMW. But today we live in different times. As I said, those who prefer to take camels should not live on North Pole or attempt inter-galactic travel. That would be haram for them. let them live in the past.
Why should we Ismailis have to go and dig Hadiths for the event of Ghadir and about H. Ali? When It is clear cut quoted in Quran? Open your eyes ZZnoor read and try to understand what Quran really say about appointment of H.Ali and what messege was really delivered by Allah during that event. BTW;For your and others information H.Ali is not only mentioned in Quran and Hadiths !but he is also mentioned in Tauret, Zaboor, Bible , Hindu religion and also Shikh"s religion "Gurbani" do not you believe this? then go ahead and find in these holy books! but one thing for sure, you will not find the names of those K e.. Umar, Usman and Abu Bakar who snatched the khilaphats from H.Ali in these holy books this ia my promiss.
Zznoor eid mubarak to you as well
I have similar views about the hadith as the admin. Now for your question about ritualistic prayers, well the Quran refers to them as the Prescribed Prayers which are supposed to be performed as an obligation. According to the Quran the job of the messenger was only to give the message. Also according to the Quran the job of guidance was the Imam's prerogative.
Therefore there were several messengers that also served as Imams. It is the Imam's job to hand out the prescribed prayers to the believing people as well as to guide them. Abraham (A.S) gave his people a specific way o perform prayers, Moses (A.S) to his, Jesus to his and Prophet Mohammad (SAWS) to his. These methods of prayers were different since these Messengers/Imams served God and humanity in different times and served in different cultures.
The Imam of Time, MHI derives his authority from the Quran and by extension God, therefore our ritualistic prayers come from MHI as they should. Again for us the sunnat of Prophet Mohammad doesn't apply since he is not the Imam of the Time. Rather for us the sunnat of MHI applies since it is his prerogative given by the Quran and God to guide. Hope this helps.
I have similar views about the hadith as the admin. Now for your question about ritualistic prayers, well the Quran refers to them as the Prescribed Prayers which are supposed to be performed as an obligation. According to the Quran the job of the messenger was only to give the message. Also according to the Quran the job of guidance was the Imam's prerogative.
Therefore there were several messengers that also served as Imams. It is the Imam's job to hand out the prescribed prayers to the believing people as well as to guide them. Abraham (A.S) gave his people a specific way o perform prayers, Moses (A.S) to his, Jesus to his and Prophet Mohammad (SAWS) to his. These methods of prayers were different since these Messengers/Imams served God and humanity in different times and served in different cultures.
The Imam of Time, MHI derives his authority from the Quran and by extension God, therefore our ritualistic prayers come from MHI as they should. Again for us the sunnat of Prophet Mohammad doesn't apply since he is not the Imam of the Time. Rather for us the sunnat of MHI applies since it is his prerogative given by the Quran and God to guide. Hope this helps.
Well other branches of Islam including Ismaili branches would disagree.The Imam of Time, MHI derives his authority from the Quran and by extension God, therefore our ritualistic prayers come from MHI as they should. Again for us the sunnat of Prophet Mohammad doesn't apply since he is not the Imam of the Time. Rather for us the sunnat of MHI applies since it is his prerogative given by the Quran and God to guide. Hope this helps.
Why MHI had to announce that he was going to give uniform Namaaz?
Well other branches of Islam including Ismaili branches would disagree.
Why MHI had to announce that he was going to give uniform Namaaz?[/quote]
On your first response the Ismaili branch may not disagree, but then again we have diversity of opinion in our branch.
But on your second message as to why MHI was going to give a uniform Namaaz/ Dua/ Salat? Well that's his prerogative as per the Quran. He can change the Prescribed Prayers as he see's fit because he has the God given authority to do so. Just as Prophet Mohammad did, and just as Imam Jaffer Sadiq did, just ask the Hannafi Sunnis.
Why MHI had to announce that he was going to give uniform Namaaz?[/quote]
On your first response the Ismaili branch may not disagree, but then again we have diversity of opinion in our branch.
But on your second message as to why MHI was going to give a uniform Namaaz/ Dua/ Salat? Well that's his prerogative as per the Quran. He can change the Prescribed Prayers as he see's fit because he has the God given authority to do so. Just as Prophet Mohammad did, and just as Imam Jaffer Sadiq did, just ask the Hannafi Sunnis.
According to my understanding, from Fatimid and pre-Fatimid texts, the offices of Imamat and Hujjatship has been there through out human history and shall continue to exist till Qyiamat.fayaz006 wrote:@ Tret I would argue that a lot more than 49 Imams delivered the message of humanity. The Quran considers Abraham (A.S) as an Imam.
Thanks
before Prophet Muhammad [During major cycle], the office of Imamat was occupied by Natiqeen [6 major Prophets, Adam, Ibrahim throught Prophet Muhammad], and after major cycle, the office of Imamat is now occupied by Imam Ali as first manifest Imam and the successive Imams.
So, technically we could say Ibrahim was an Imam in the sense that He was occupying the office of Imamat; but the proper term would be Natiq.
ZZnoor from your posts i get the distinct feeling that instead of trying to learn on this forum you are trying to preach and prove people wrong. That was not my intention of opening this thread. The question you asked about Imam Jaffer Sadiq is highly complex and frankly it digresses from the jist of this post.
From your posts i feel that you do not have a good handle on our religion and its diversity of different traditions. My only advice would be to put your critical thinking hat on before you start reading the Quran and analyzing the hadiths. ill leave you to ponder the following, it is God who created the Jew, the Christian, the Hindu and all other humans on the face of the earth (7 billion). You must ask yourself, is your path the only correct path to reach God? in which case God has just committed a great injustice by creating everybody but people who follow your way of life.
Or do all paths lead to God? food for thought
From your posts i feel that you do not have a good handle on our religion and its diversity of different traditions. My only advice would be to put your critical thinking hat on before you start reading the Quran and analyzing the hadiths. ill leave you to ponder the following, it is God who created the Jew, the Christian, the Hindu and all other humans on the face of the earth (7 billion). You must ask yourself, is your path the only correct path to reach God? in which case God has just committed a great injustice by creating everybody but people who follow your way of life.
Or do all paths lead to God? food for thought
Ya Ali Madad.
For Ismailis will do what Imam the time tells via Farman.
it may not concern what 48 past Imam told in the past.
it is highly valued for academic purpose but following the Present living Imam is 'Siratal Mustakeem' for us.
so what Imam Jaffer Sadiq did 1300 year back has noting to do with us now.
even Imam as late till 47th Imam kept beards.
it is gone means gone.
if you want to debate with sense(not shit of the past)on what Ismailis do Today
and what Imam or Entity XYZ did in medieval ages?
your strategy to put past ages copy paste has become boring for all.
BTW. the original n generic name of GOD is ALI.
he does go by many brands name thru periods
like Allah,Holy father,Brahma,Krishna,etc.
which do you like?.
For Ismailis will do what Imam the time tells via Farman.
it may not concern what 48 past Imam told in the past.
it is highly valued for academic purpose but following the Present living Imam is 'Siratal Mustakeem' for us.
so what Imam Jaffer Sadiq did 1300 year back has noting to do with us now.
even Imam as late till 47th Imam kept beards.
it is gone means gone.
if you want to debate with sense(not shit of the past)on what Ismailis do Today
and what Imam or Entity XYZ did in medieval ages?
your strategy to put past ages copy paste has become boring for all.
BTW. the original n generic name of GOD is ALI.
he does go by many brands name thru periods
like Allah,Holy father,Brahma,Krishna,etc.
which do you like?.
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
"You must tell missionaries the essence of history, They must preach in Jamat Khana the history of Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq and the Prophet"
- Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah (Ismailia Association Conference, Karachi,1952)[/quote]
Imam Sadiq[as] is one of those who formed and strengthened a society called Ikhwan-As-Safa [Breathen of Purity]...If at all you get a chance just dig into it to get more details about it.
What did Imam Jafar change? 5 prayers?
He attended same mosque as other Muslim of that time. There is no record that he changed prayers.
"You must tell missionaries the essence of history, They must preach in Jamat Khana the history of Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq and the Prophet"
- Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah (Ismailia Association Conference, Karachi,1952)[/quote]
Imam Sadiq[as] is one of those who formed and strengthened a society called Ikhwan-As-Safa [Breathen of Purity]...If at all you get a chance just dig into it to get more details about it.