5 Pillars of Islam

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:37 am

"tret"

For zznoor and others alike: I strongly suggest to go through the following link to clarify misperception about Ismaili interpretation of the pillars of Islam.

http://ismailignosis.com/2012/09/30/the ... f-walayah/

Five founding principal and Six belief are firmly established for last 1400 hundred years.

Nearly 1.6 B less 20 M Ismailis do not need new interpretations.
Please post interpretation of Hz Ali or your MHI.

Thanks for link and I have read it.

Ramadan Kareem to you even though you have different interpretation.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:29 am

zznoor wrote:
"tret"

For zznoor and others alike: I strongly suggest to go through the following link to clarify misperception about Ismaili interpretation of the pillars of Islam.

http://ismailignosis.com/2012/09/30/the ... f-walayah/
Five founding principal and Six belief are firmly established for last 1400 hundred years.

Nearly 1.6 B less 20 M Ismailis do not need new interpretations.
Please post interpretation of Hz Ali or your MHI.

Thanks for link and I have read it.

Ramadan Kareem to you even though you have different interpretation.

I posted this link, in the hope to clear some of your confusion and mis-conception about Ismaili belief in the principals and pillars of Islam; but it added more to your confusion. Just for your information, in this article references are taken from the Imams, Ismailie thinkers and philosophers and even Ibn-Arabi. So, either you didn't read the article entirely or you didn't quite understand it.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:43 am

tret
I posted this link, in the hope to clear some of your confusion and mis-conception about Ismaili belief in the principals and pillars of Islam; but it added more to your confusion. Just for your information, in this article references are taken from the Imams, Ismailie thinkers and philosophers and even Ibn-Arabi. So, either you didn't read the article entirely or you didn't quite understand it.

Only Quran, Prophet and Ali will convince me.
All these quotes must be supported by Quran or not against Quranic teachings.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:22 pm

Ramadan Kareem to you even though you have different interpretation.

Can you tell me what different interpretation we ( Ismaili ) have on Ramadan?
We Ismailis also believe in holy month of Ramadan!, many Ismailis also keeps fasting in this month and none of our Imams has yet restricted us not to keep roza in this month! so how you can tell that we have different interpretation!? that is different story that not all Ismailis keep fasting all month but there are many who does that.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:29 am

You have to go through Ismaili history to find the interpretations given by our Imams and Pirs.

In brief the fasts that have been said to be compulsory by the Imam (Beej) are the one we are bound to respect and not miss.

The fasts for which there is no specific Farmans (such as satima jo Rojo - the fast of the 7th day) are left to each Murids choice.

And the fasts that have been declared haram by the Imam [or any Imam and not be contradicted by any farmans) are not to be observed (even though we may repsect others who do)

Shariat and Haqiqat are worlds apart, these will never meet, as much as one tries.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:37 pm

Admin wrote:
And the fasts that have been declared haram by the Imam [or any Imam and not be contradicted by any farmans) are not to be observed (even though we may repsect others who do)...

So what are those fasts that are declared haram?

Post by **Admin** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:34 pm

That has already been discussed at lenght in some other sections of this Forum and will not be re-discussed here. Just do your research...

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:42 am

Admin wrote:That has already been discussed at lenght in some other sections of this Forum and will not be re-discussed here. Just do your research...

Your search doesn't work, btw.

these different types of fast that you named, are specific to jama'at of indian subcontinent and not for other ismaili jama'at at large, such as central asia. The fast that is observed is the same fast as is observed by all muslim ummah, and apparently we ismaili emphasize on its esoteric values and morals than simply its exoteric practices, such as refraining from food and water.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:27 pm

I think Admin is talking about some fasts we Indo-Pak Ismailis used to keep and their are some Ismailis still keeping it specially ladies, but these fasting has no religious significant behind them like Bar Pahori Beej, like Sati Ma jo Rozo, Bibi Fatema's Rozo e.t.c.
Admin correct me if I am wrong.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:27 pm

I am not talking of these fast. The Bar Pohori fast exist still in the form of Shukarwari Beej. This is one of the compulsory fast for those who want to be part of the promises of the Imam to save the soul of countless Murids.

Satima jo Rojo is only compulsory to those who want to avail themselves of the special blessing needed for Mushkil Asaan as this Rojo is dedicated to the Manifestation of Mowlana Ali on the 7th Day. But since the Imam has not made it compulsory for all, the decision is left to the individual. In any case, it is a half day fast in remembrance.

As far as Ramadan fast is concern, those who are keeping it will die rather then accept that they may have been wrongly interpreting the matter. As far as I am concern, I do not wish to indulge in controversies in this regard.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:39 pm

Admin wrote: As far as Ramadan fast is concern, those who are keeping it will die rather then accept that they may have been wrongly interpreting the matter

I'd love to see a Farmaan or any credible reference.

I think this is the very most appropriate forum and thread to discuss this topic, as the topic is pillars of Islam, and so is Fast.

I'd like you to read the following article and reflect and let us know if you agree or disagree.

http://ismailignosis.com/2014/06/27/ram ... l-fasting/

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:48 pm

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.

How does it feel n see on your face from switching from 100% pure skin glow cream to 85% fake face n eye rings saver cream you are using now?
There is no escape from reality.
Do you live now in year 2014 or living a life of 1400 years old ?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:18 am

tret wrote:
Admin wrote: As far as Ramadan fast is concern, those who are keeping it will die rather then accept that they may have been wrongly interpreting the matter
I'd love to see a Farmaan or any credible reference.

I think this is the very most appropriate forum and thread to discuss this topic, as the topic is pillars of Islam, and so is Fast.

I'd like you to read the following article and reflect and let us know if you agree or disagree.

http://ismailignosis.com/2014/06/27/ram ... l-fasting/

From above link

In many places today it must become commonplace for people to sleep during most of the day – the time of fasting – and then feast through the entire night when fasting is not required. In many such places more food is consumed by people during the month of Ramaḍān than any other month. In such cases the spirit of fasting becomes lost and obscured. However, the Exoteric Fasting is merely the outermost layer of this practice.

This is oft repeated canard by doubter of Islam. Who use excuse like this to escape fasting during Ramadan.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:47 am

zznoor wrote:
tret wrote:
Admin wrote: As far as Ramadan fast is concern, those who are keeping it will die rather then accept that they may have been wrongly interpreting the matter
I'd love to see a Farmaan or any credible reference.

I think this is the very most appropriate forum and thread to discuss this topic, as the topic is pillars of Islam, and so is Fast.

I'd like you to read the following article and reflect and let us know if you agree or disagree.

http://ismailignosis.com/2014/06/27/ram ... l-fasting/
From above link
In many places today it must become commonplace for people to sleep during most of the day – the time of fasting – and then feast through the entire night when fasting is not required. In many such places more food is consumed by people during the month of Ramaḍān than any other month. In such cases the spirit of fasting becomes lost and obscured. However, the Exoteric Fasting is merely the outermost layer of this practice.
This is oft repeated canard by doubter of Islam. Who use excuse like this to escape fasting during Ramadan.

zznoor - those who escape, will always find a way to do so. I am sure there are people in any religion and faith who escapes the religious duties; however, we are not talking about that. The article that I post, a) should clarify your mis-conception about Ismailis at large, and Ismailis do believe in the essence of Ramadan and Fast [esoteric interpretation]. b) to indicate and emphasize the importance of esoteric moral of the Fast, than exoteric [zahiri] practice of it.

It's entirely up to you how you take it and interpret it, and we are totally fine with that. After all, in faith there's no compulsion.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:47 pm

tret
Ismailis do believe in the essence of Ramadan and Fast [esoteric interpretation].

Show me "Esoteric Ramadan Fast" in Quran or Sunnah of Prophet.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:20 pm

zznoor wrote:
tret
Ismailis do believe in the essence of Ramadan and Fast [esoteric interpretation].
Show me "Esoteric Ramadan Fast" in Quran or Sunnah of Prophet.

go through that link I posted; don't really want to baby sit you. If you are looking for answers, you should be able to get yours by materials in your disposal; if you have other intentions, then nothing will convince you, not even if the Prophet Himself comes down.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:51 pm

I do not need baby sitting.
Quran asks you to fast
Nowhere batin or haqikati fast is mentioned.
You know 1.2 B Muslims are reminded every Jumma hadith of Innovation.
Did Prophet, Ali ever do Batin and Haqikati fast?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:55 pm

why you guys always quote Quranas a reference when FASTING question arises? Do not forget that fasting was there even before Islam was not there and Quran was not revealed yet! I get disappointed when i read that fasting is just Islamic or quranic roots. You are wrong Tret/Sheri , ZZNoor yes you are totally wrong.
Go and read other religions first and then after put your half knowledge inputs.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:57 pm

tret
not even if the Prophet Himself comes down

Prophet did come down, delivered Allah's message and showed us how to implement it (Sunna ).

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Prophet was sent with Quran to implement religion of Islam.
What was before are just stories.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:45 pm

If what was before are just stories, you have deleted all of the Prophets of Allah with once sentence, something even the worst of Allah's enemies never succeeded doing though they tried in the past as hard as you do in the present.

And to pretend that the Holy Quran existed only after the Prophet came is an affront to reason. Even Jews and Christians amongst others are called as the People of the Book. Is the Book not referring to Quran? What exactly is your religion?

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:57 pm

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
I am awaiting your answer.I know what % it would be true.
Move away from the compulsory low cost dieting debate.
Fasting is nothing but 8.33% percent of physical time of the year for God,
but in reality n biologically helping one's body.It remind the person to serve
in the cause of God/ALI.
there are lot of relief n set off for persons in few Ayats who may or cannot keep fast.
for the people of understanding it is s spiritual inspiration and for the people
at ignorance level it arouses religious sentiments (dharmik bhavna).
We go by what the Living Quran/ALI/MHI says as Quran do have many inner meaning n fasting is one of them.
It is foundation to Khidmat where a person with physical control is cause of faith n move forward to serve humanity in the cause of GOD/ALI with
intellect n wealth etc.
Fasting is good for those who can keep it.
I see it as the cheapest dieting n detoxification package plan available.
It show how Intelligent ALI is in prescribing it in Quran with relief n set off
for those who cannot keep it,I assume one set off is charity or scrifice
in kind of wealth,which agian corealtes to khidmat in offering form in
which Ismailis are million years ahead of any when it come to giving n generosity.
In Islam the underlying message of Ramadan is not go hungry but giving
alms n generosity practice in that month starting at 8.33 % and be blessed to make it full 12 month practice.
I have different way to look at an issue,I always try to tell the truth as I perceive.

Shariatis get one month to practice Khidmat n we Ismailis are blessed to be born into it
24 X7 n 365 days in a year of giving time ,knowledge n wealth for the cause of Humanity and one month reminders with street side Mullahs,
Maulvi n Kazi going bonkers over their mike in that month and repeatedly remind them to serve cause of GOD/ALI.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:12 pm

agakhani wrote:...Go and read other religions first [/b] and then after put your half knowledge inputs.

Which other religion? Hinduism? And why would I leave my religion and study Hinduism?

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:15 pm

Admin - btw, I am still awaiting your respond about your assertion of fast being haram. ..

Post by **Admin** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:27 pm

Any fast forbidden by the Imam would be Haram in my eyes. It may be lawful in other people eyes so there is no need to kill each other for this matter and I will not start listing here the fast forbidden to us, it is up to each one to find his way.

Shariat and Haqiqat are world apart and they shall never meet. Nor should the opinions of Shariati people ever meet those of the Haqiqati people.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:22 am

Jews and Christians are called people of book but their books were changed and hence need for new and final book.

Jews are allowed to consume wine. Muslim are not. Christians are allowed to consume Pork and non Halal meat. Muslims are not. This is in Quran.

If Jews were required to fast on certain days, we are not obliged to fast on those days. Muslims are to fast in the month of Ramadan and that is crystal clear.

Allow me to quote some Ahadith.

shahi Bukhari, book of Belief

Hadith no: 38
Narrated / Authority of: Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever observes fasts during the month of Ramadan out of sincere faith, and hoping to attain Allah's rewards, then all his past sins will be forgiven

Hadith no: 45
Narrated / Authority of: Talha bin Ubaidullah
A man from Najd with unkempt hair came to Allah's Apostle and we heard his loud voice but could not understand what he was saying, till he came near and then we came to know that he was asking about Islam. Allah's Apostle said, "You have to offer prayers perfectly five times in a day and night (24 hours)." The man asked, "Is there any more (praying)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "No, but if you want to offer the Nawafil prayers (you can)." Allah's Apostle further said to him: "You have to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." The man asked, "Is there any more fasting?" Allah's Apostle replied, "No, but if you want to observe the Nawafil fasts (you can)." Then Allah's Apostle further said to him, "You have to pay the Zakat (obligatory charity)." The man asked, "Is there any thing other than the Zakat for me to pay?" Allah's Apostle replied, "No, unless you want to give alms of your own." And then that man retreated saying, "By Allah! I will neither do less nor more than this." Allah's Apostle said, "If what he said is true, then he will be successful (i.e. he will be granted Paradise)."

"Is there any more fasting?" Allah's Apostle replied, "No, but if you want to observe the Nawafil fasts (you can)."
Why didn't he say yes you may do Batini fast or Haqiqati fast or Marafati fast?

And finally let me quote hadith from book of faith, Bukhari

Hadith no: 25
Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Umar
Allah's Messenger said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Messenger of Allah, and perform as-salat [perform as-salat (prayers)] and give zakat (obligatory charity) so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and properties from me except for Islamic laws, and their reckoning (accounts) will be with (done by) Allah."

Salam brothers

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:04 am

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
you are again going back 1400 years with hear say crap n rubbish.
next time when you refer to any of this Bull s..t crap you MUST in bracket
make a disclaimer of being 85% fake with the reference no and quack narrator name.
where is your answer on own face example on skin cream?

To Admin;The word haram is not the right word against fasting period or action.the word not needed or not desired may be more polite.
it is advised n not an absolute order by ALI in Quran for self discipline in those times to give beyond self discipline more time ,wealth n Intellect to co believers of faith n humanity.
I feel zznoor n tret are both right in their angle of observation.
A simple question by going hungry for few hour and re balancing it grand
two meals(67%) just make a person in reality consume 33% less food in the course of the day.
Does it help other beside saving food grains.NO NO NO.
The act of generosity propagated in that month and actual doer of that act
may be helping others or filling coffers of the Mullahs.
By fasting one is not favoring God but retoning its diet,only by act of charity n khidmat it can considered working in cause of ALI.
All the hadith with reward blah,blah is 100% false.
I wish to see an Ayat what rewards ALI has said in Quran for those who observe n practice plain vanilla fasting.(33% less food intake temporarily).
There is nothing to go GAGA over this candle on it face value but beyond
that with sunlight it takes a person forward to even achieve upto 33%
in combination n total of all three wealth,intellect n time in cause for ALI n Humanity.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:36 am

Which other religion? Hinduism? And why would I leave my religion and study Hinduism?

So, that you can come out from your narrow thinking, because that is only way you know what is the reality is! what is truth is.

BTW:- you do not need to read Hinduism just read the history of Arabia before Islam and you will find that. i.e. there were fasting in Jarthoshties, Yahudi and in Christianity before Islam sirf Islam ne hi roza ka izara nahi le rakha hai! SO COME OUT FROM YOUR NARROW THINKING.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:18 am

agakhani wrote:
Which other religion? Hinduism? And why would I leave my religion and study Hinduism?
So, that you can come out from your narrow thinking, because that is only way you know what is the reality is! what is truth is.

BTW:- you do not need to read Hinduism just read the history of Arabia before Islam and you will find that. i.e. there were fasting in Jarthoshties, Yahudi and in Christianity before Islam sirf Islam ne hi roza ka izara nahi le rakha hai! SO COME OUT FROM YOUR NARROW THINKING.

Wow, what a brilliant statement!

That's exactly why everyone follows their own path. Ours [ismaili] path is the straight path [sirat-ul-mustaqim]. You are more than welcome to follow christianity, judasim, hindusim, wahabism etc and read gita, sita, rama, sharma..., but for me, I am sticking with my own ismaili tariqa and let jews follow judasim, hindus follow hindusim.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:48 am

Admin wrote:Any fast forbidden by the Imam would be Haram in my eyes. It may be lawful in other people eyes so there is no need to kill each other for this matter and I will not start listing here the fast forbidden to us, it is up to each one to find his way.

Shariat and Haqiqat are world apart and they shall never meet. Nor should the opinions of Shariati people ever meet those of the Haqiqati people.

Not only fast, but anything forbidden by the Imam must be avoided by murids. What I want from you to explain to your ignorant brother what are those fasts? Because the fast that I have come to know as an Ismaili muslim is the fast that we observe during the month of Ramadan. There's not matter of killing one another, I am asking a legitimate question, for I truly don't know any other type of fasts. Bottom line, I need to know if you are referring to the same fast that muslims [including ismailis] observer during the month of ramadan, as being declared 'haram'? or there is something else?

About you shariat and haqiqat assertion: I never disagreed with that, and I don't really see what's the relevance of this to the topic of discussion?

Besides, I see shariat and haqiqat as different stages of one's journey in wayfaring. You cannot get to haqiqat without passing through shariat. In other words think of it as elementary, secondary and higher education grades. You cannot move to secondary level, without passing primary level. While they are apart, but one must pass through each stages.