Ya ali madad.
please posr evey qasida of shams tabriz n nasir khusraw line by line with
your translation and we also some body to tranlate the same.
let start lineir theme n line of thinking which is a quasi approved as they are recited day in day out.
your screwed up mind is trying to find all typer of useless wordf
talla.falla,suhan.
when there is one word from quran for sunni that is 'Allah' n for haqiqati it is ALI.
please debate on word by word of Farman of earlier 3 imams
n word by word qasida of above two entity.
if not
IN ISMAILI IS IS LEVEL OF INSPIRATION AT VARING VERTICAL LEVEL N
NOT HORIZONTAL OF PLURALISM IN DIFFERENT RELIGION
[Note from Admin: Personal attacks and insults have been deleted]
"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri
Since my POV has been asked, here it is - some will agree and some will start a shouting match:tret wrote: Admin - Can you please give your POV on the old Du'a and current Du'a.
There is no difference between the ld Dua and the present Dua. The present Dua is shorter and contains only Arabic of which a lot was already in the old Dua. As a matter of fact the concepts are all there in the shorter version. There is no difference between Ali Sahi Allah as written in the old manuscripts of the Dua and the Ali Ullah that we recite today. People are free to translate as they wish but fundamentally these expression means the same.
There is a discussion on the present Dua and on how with the advent of Pakistan, the Dua given by the Imam and which contained a prosternation to the Imam was removed by some people who refuse to recite it in pakistan and ultimately for the sake of unity and uniformity the pakistan way of saying it was adopted "Allah huma laka sujudi wa tati)
Go to that discussion thread, for matter on the subject, there is no need to discuss it here.
Ya Ali Madad.
If one read n understand the Quran in Baatin.
there is no upstairs or abode above earth level for human bodies to have
n survive.
GOD has made earth as HIS abode among it children(difficult to digest it).
There is no heaven or hell up somewhere.
all feature of hell( like volcano) and heaven ( blissful life in blessed surrounding as an Ismalie or from other religion is on earth ONLY.
Human souls have grinding on earth n earth only with reward n punishment.
why would GOD keep hanging in mid air without food or oxygen
when he himself created earth with all good b not so good features.
what foxes one mind hoe a human being be GOD.
in Quran it is said that he made human out of his figure n from one soul.
so the owner,custodian or father of the soul has to be one entity
God in human form.
if heaven n hell are here where GOD should be?
all these come by conviction in ismaili faith.
it is not printed unless one believes in printed farmans.
Also no khoja origin Haqiqati Ismali will ever try to distort or fake farman to make their point of view.
because there is farman if anyone does that he will thrown into hell fire.
(50 degrees Celsius ai sub sahara africa for million life cycle of beggarly
destitute life.)
Either one believes in HIM or have the guts to ask him.
the guts will never come unless ALI decides who is capable of asking him.
Till then explore mystery of Allah talla hiding away from his creation.
my sincere advice to stop reading all the junk which are not said in JK.
meditate with the word 'YA ALI'.
the first level of surety will come by glow of light you observe on your body n face .it will take few month or years.
this happens by default and rest further is his Grace.
even non Ismailis whom I have told see light on their faces.
even a Ayat is there stating them as resident of paradise.
If one read n understand the Quran in Baatin.
there is no upstairs or abode above earth level for human bodies to have
n survive.
GOD has made earth as HIS abode among it children(difficult to digest it).
There is no heaven or hell up somewhere.
all feature of hell( like volcano) and heaven ( blissful life in blessed surrounding as an Ismalie or from other religion is on earth ONLY.
Human souls have grinding on earth n earth only with reward n punishment.
why would GOD keep hanging in mid air without food or oxygen
when he himself created earth with all good b not so good features.
what foxes one mind hoe a human being be GOD.
in Quran it is said that he made human out of his figure n from one soul.
so the owner,custodian or father of the soul has to be one entity
God in human form.
if heaven n hell are here where GOD should be?
all these come by conviction in ismaili faith.
it is not printed unless one believes in printed farmans.
Also no khoja origin Haqiqati Ismali will ever try to distort or fake farman to make their point of view.
because there is farman if anyone does that he will thrown into hell fire.
(50 degrees Celsius ai sub sahara africa for million life cycle of beggarly
destitute life.)
Either one believes in HIM or have the guts to ask him.
the guts will never come unless ALI decides who is capable of asking him.
Till then explore mystery of Allah talla hiding away from his creation.
my sincere advice to stop reading all the junk which are not said in JK.
meditate with the word 'YA ALI'.
the first level of surety will come by glow of light you observe on your body n face .it will take few month or years.
this happens by default and rest further is his Grace.
even non Ismailis whom I have told see light on their faces.
even a Ayat is there stating them as resident of paradise.
Admin wrote:Since my POV has been asked, here it is - some will agree and some will start a shouting match:tret wrote: Admin - Can you please give your POV on the old Du'a and current Du'a.
There is no difference between the ld Dua and the present Dua. The present Dua is shorter and contains only Arabic of which a lot was already in the old Dua. As a matter of fact the concepts are all there in the shorter version. There is no difference between Ali Sahi Allah as written in the old manuscripts of the Dua and the Ali Ullah that we recite today. People are free to translate as they wish but fundamentally these expression means the same.
There is a discussion on the present Dua and on how with the advent of Pakistan, the Dua given by the Imam and which contained a prosternation to the Imam was removed by some people who refuse to recite it in pakistan and ultimately for the sake of unity and uniformity the pakistan way of saying it was adopted "Allah huma laka sujudi wa tati)
Go to that discussion thread, for matter on the subject, there is no need to discuss it here.
Thanks Admin for providing your POV; and it's certainly appreciated.
One last clarification.
The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
Can you tell me what's its literal translation? (I know every may interpret it differently, but just literal, word to word translation).
Is Sahi = Correct/True/Real
or Is Sahi derived from the word "Shah"?
To nuseri -
To post and translate and interpret every single Qasida; is realistically beyond the scope of these threads.
Second, in order to better understand the Qasidas, you must also study their works to understand the intention of the Qasida.
This is what I have been trying to explain since this whole debate started. To me personally, all their Qasidas are aligned with the principal theme of their teaching, which is the oneness of almighty Allah, free from any type of association, imagination. Inspite of praising Ali to that extend, yet it's not compared or equated to Allah/God. That's why it's important to study their work as well.
You admire the Qasidas of Nasir-e-Khusraw, but call his work crap. This is very selective of yours; something, you admit something from the Qur'an that suits your convenience, but dismiss the ones that opposes your belief system, such as Surah Ikhlas, for example. In ismaili tariqa, even you accept most, but dismiss the very first principal of the ismaili constitution, which is Tawhid. I don't think faith is about convenience and selectiveness what we like, it's about conviction and accepting it in its totality and trying to ponder upon things that are not clear, as opposed to dismissing it all together.
Categorizing people into x y z, is really should not be one of the qualities of us[ismailies]; it really doesn't suite us. Try and reflect on what MHI has always emphasized, Plurality, diversity, and mankind has been created from a single soul, and yet here you are, call one person 'screwed up', the other person 'barking', the other one so on and so forth. It appears that only your version of ismailism is correct, and yet you fail to provide ground for your arguments, except your opinion.
You always talk about varying level of inspiration, then tell me what's your inspiration? you already found god apparently, then why would you need any inspiration. it becomes irrelevant to you [or anyone who thinks found god]. The very nature of human is to know. and To Know, is what keeps you motivated and you need something to inspire you. But once you know what you needed to know, inspiration becomes irrelevant. Remember the story of the moth and candle I gave you earlier? That's sufi way of unity with God, which is the closest that can get with our way of thinking, the only difference is that we balance between Din and Dunya. However, the point I was making was, until you don't 'burn'[renounce life] entirely into the 'flames' of the 'Candle'[God], understanding of God remains mystery. The explanation of the moth who just saw the candle, and the one who touched it a little, was not even close to the reality. So, again whoever claims that have found god, without renouncing life and every attachments of it, and passing through the 7 valley of wayfaring, is simply fooling himself and is confused in denial. This is not me, but it's in accordance with the sufi and ismaili ways of thinking, in particular.
Heaven and Hell: I am not sure how these topic found its way into the conversation. These are entirely separate topic and deserves their own thread. Discussing them here, would only side track, as it is already. Anyways, I would gave my 2 cents, since you asked. I don't anyone has claimed ever, that there's a world, in hereafter for human body. However, I certainly believe that there IS for human SOUL. It's your understanding and belief that heaven and hell are in this world, and I never dispute that. But the real question to ask, is what is heaven and hell, according to you in this world? In a nutshell, I believe to receive knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time is the heaven metaphor, and to live in ignorance is the hell.
Your question -- according to your level of understanding -- is legitimate, that why would God hang out somewhere else totally disconnected from us[temporal world], without oxygen and air? And it deserves an answer.
It's a very good question, and I will try to do my best to answer it.
a - according to all Abrahemic faith, including Islam's theology in general, and Ismaili theology in particular God is the all powerful, transcending which transcends human intellect in every dimension. What this means is that human intellect is not capable of understanding The God. However, mankind must realize the existence of God.
b - God's Essence is His Amr (aka Divine Command/Kalima/God's Will); which was there always, which the origination of creation. Even in Qur'an, it says something like God willed and the universe existed. It's the Command of God/Will of God which is the origination of the creation.
c - The First creation is the First Intellect (aka Universal Intellect[al-aql-e-awal]/The One/Eternal Imam/Nur-e-Imamah), which was created without any mediation directly from the Will of God[Command of God] and IT is perfect and actualized.
d - From IT [First Intellect], came to existence the Universal Soul, which came into existence by mediation that is potentially perfect. To actualize ITself [Universal Soul], it generates movements which causes the universe came to existence. The very essence of the universe is the Individual Soul, which needs to be saved.
e - So, to do the analogy of the creation of the universe is like : Mr. A is a very wealthy and famous man. Mr A wants a mansion to be built on a lake-side. So, he gives order to agents to built the mansion. When the mansion at last is built; it would be called Mr. A's mansion. Now, in reality we all know that Mr. A physically didn't built the house, but yet it's called Mr. A's mansion. This is because Mr. A gave the order to built the mansion. It was Mr. A's will.
You can see from this analogy, God has willed the universe to be created, and God's Command was the origination of the all creation. The actual creation is done by Universal Intellect and IT continues to create and sustains the creation. We also see numerous Farameen of the Imams saying that WE are the creator, we are the sustainer and similar expression. In those instances the Imams are speaking as the Eternal Imam and not necessarily as Manifest Imam. That's why those words are very powerful and can not be understood by a layman.
I would like you to clarify what do you mean by junk not read in JK? So I will pay attention and next time don't read them.
To post and translate and interpret every single Qasida; is realistically beyond the scope of these threads.
Second, in order to better understand the Qasidas, you must also study their works to understand the intention of the Qasida.
This is what I have been trying to explain since this whole debate started. To me personally, all their Qasidas are aligned with the principal theme of their teaching, which is the oneness of almighty Allah, free from any type of association, imagination. Inspite of praising Ali to that extend, yet it's not compared or equated to Allah/God. That's why it's important to study their work as well.
You admire the Qasidas of Nasir-e-Khusraw, but call his work crap. This is very selective of yours; something, you admit something from the Qur'an that suits your convenience, but dismiss the ones that opposes your belief system, such as Surah Ikhlas, for example. In ismaili tariqa, even you accept most, but dismiss the very first principal of the ismaili constitution, which is Tawhid. I don't think faith is about convenience and selectiveness what we like, it's about conviction and accepting it in its totality and trying to ponder upon things that are not clear, as opposed to dismissing it all together.
Categorizing people into x y z, is really should not be one of the qualities of us[ismailies]; it really doesn't suite us. Try and reflect on what MHI has always emphasized, Plurality, diversity, and mankind has been created from a single soul, and yet here you are, call one person 'screwed up', the other person 'barking', the other one so on and so forth. It appears that only your version of ismailism is correct, and yet you fail to provide ground for your arguments, except your opinion.
You always talk about varying level of inspiration, then tell me what's your inspiration? you already found god apparently, then why would you need any inspiration. it becomes irrelevant to you [or anyone who thinks found god]. The very nature of human is to know. and To Know, is what keeps you motivated and you need something to inspire you. But once you know what you needed to know, inspiration becomes irrelevant. Remember the story of the moth and candle I gave you earlier? That's sufi way of unity with God, which is the closest that can get with our way of thinking, the only difference is that we balance between Din and Dunya. However, the point I was making was, until you don't 'burn'[renounce life] entirely into the 'flames' of the 'Candle'[God], understanding of God remains mystery. The explanation of the moth who just saw the candle, and the one who touched it a little, was not even close to the reality. So, again whoever claims that have found god, without renouncing life and every attachments of it, and passing through the 7 valley of wayfaring, is simply fooling himself and is confused in denial. This is not me, but it's in accordance with the sufi and ismaili ways of thinking, in particular.
Heaven and Hell: I am not sure how these topic found its way into the conversation. These are entirely separate topic and deserves their own thread. Discussing them here, would only side track, as it is already. Anyways, I would gave my 2 cents, since you asked. I don't anyone has claimed ever, that there's a world, in hereafter for human body. However, I certainly believe that there IS for human SOUL. It's your understanding and belief that heaven and hell are in this world, and I never dispute that. But the real question to ask, is what is heaven and hell, according to you in this world? In a nutshell, I believe to receive knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time is the heaven metaphor, and to live in ignorance is the hell.
Your question -- according to your level of understanding -- is legitimate, that why would God hang out somewhere else totally disconnected from us[temporal world], without oxygen and air? And it deserves an answer.
It's a very good question, and I will try to do my best to answer it.
a - according to all Abrahemic faith, including Islam's theology in general, and Ismaili theology in particular God is the all powerful, transcending which transcends human intellect in every dimension. What this means is that human intellect is not capable of understanding The God. However, mankind must realize the existence of God.
b - God's Essence is His Amr (aka Divine Command/Kalima/God's Will); which was there always, which the origination of creation. Even in Qur'an, it says something like God willed and the universe existed. It's the Command of God/Will of God which is the origination of the creation.
c - The First creation is the First Intellect (aka Universal Intellect[al-aql-e-awal]/The One/Eternal Imam/Nur-e-Imamah), which was created without any mediation directly from the Will of God[Command of God] and IT is perfect and actualized.
d - From IT [First Intellect], came to existence the Universal Soul, which came into existence by mediation that is potentially perfect. To actualize ITself [Universal Soul], it generates movements which causes the universe came to existence. The very essence of the universe is the Individual Soul, which needs to be saved.
e - So, to do the analogy of the creation of the universe is like : Mr. A is a very wealthy and famous man. Mr A wants a mansion to be built on a lake-side. So, he gives order to agents to built the mansion. When the mansion at last is built; it would be called Mr. A's mansion. Now, in reality we all know that Mr. A physically didn't built the house, but yet it's called Mr. A's mansion. This is because Mr. A gave the order to built the mansion. It was Mr. A's will.
You can see from this analogy, God has willed the universe to be created, and God's Command was the origination of the all creation. The actual creation is done by Universal Intellect and IT continues to create and sustains the creation. We also see numerous Farameen of the Imams saying that WE are the creator, we are the sustainer and similar expression. In those instances the Imams are speaking as the Eternal Imam and not necessarily as Manifest Imam. That's why those words are very powerful and can not be understood by a layman.
I would like you to clarify what do you mean by junk not read in JK? So I will pay attention and next time don't read them.
In Urdu: it means "Allah comes from Ali." This is absurd. If Allah comes from Ali then were is Allah, because we have Ali.tret wrote:Thanks for clarification.agakhani wrote:"Sahi" means True not only in Urdu, Gujarati, as you mentioned above AJ, but its has same meaning in Hindi, Sindhi, Katchhi, Sanskrit and Prakrit languages too.The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
In Gujarati: "True" in Roman English is "Sacum" - here is the google translate.
https://translate.google.com/#auto/gu/true
Without the original text, it is really difficult to determine which language this is?
tret wrote: The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
Can you tell me what's its literal translation? (I know every may interpret it differently, but just literal, word to word translation).
Is Sahi = Correct/True/Real
or Is Sahi derived from the word "Shah"?
In some context of sentences, "sahi" means "correct".
But in this case of "Ali sahi Allah", it can be interpreted as "Ali is true God" or "truly, Ali is God"
I tried to give my reasoning and understanding and i can back these information by the work of ismaili thinkers and philosophers of Fatimid period. And i tried to lay them out as stright as i could.sheri wrote:In Urdu: it means "Allah comes from Ali." This is absurd. If Allah comes from Ali then were is Allah, because we have Ali.tret wrote:Thanks for clarification.agakhani wrote: "Sahi" means True not only in Urdu, Gujarati, as you mentioned above AJ, but its has same meaning in Hindi, Sindhi, Katchhi, Sanskrit and Prakrit languages too.
In Gujarati: "True" in Roman English is "Sacum" - here is the google translate.
https://translate.google.com/#auto/gu/true
Without the original text, it is really difficult to determine which language this is?
Thanks.a_27826 wrote:tret wrote: The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
Can you tell me what's its literal translation? (I know every may interpret it differently, but just literal, word to word translation).
Is Sahi = Correct/True/Real
or Is Sahi derived from the word "Shah"?
In some context of sentences, "sahi" means "correct".
But in this case of "Ali sahi Allah", it can be interpreted as "Ali is true God" or "truly, Ali is God"
Ya Ali Madad.
I meant reading junk other than what is read,said n heard in JK.
We have from absolute order with no pik or choose horizontally FROM IT.
dua,tasbih,farmans,ginan,qasidas n Ibaadat.
(please note speeches are not inclUded)
There are main food for moving upward to varing level vertically.
the junk in general to all material like attar,isani ,nathoo ,tattu N GATTU.
and 100 others who HAVE written about ismailism at tieIr own level
of conviction,INTELLECT as an Ismaili or non Ismaili, out of love or even hatered n jealousy.
As there is baatin involved in many material ,just to pick a paragraph
n copy paste is easy an dangerous as well
Some of good material from these acknowledge by Imam i.e Masnavi of rumi (at baatin level) can supplementary as Academics of religion
but the inspiration of Faith are part of daily JK routine material
A true Ismaili will seek answer first from Farmans ,Ayats(veri tough),
ginan n qasidas, etc as there are official menu for us.
one can even ask Al waez or tariqa board for clarity.
True Ismaili will get wealth n wealth material from it.
Only person with academic passion and time suspicious or jealous
will go material outside of it,many of it could be deceiving or at zahiri
level.
Only above from JK n Ibaadat can show way to Baatin and move a person
to marifat/Tawhid.
Leaving the rich main food n running outside the house of father to find junk food is sign of rebellion or disobedient child.
there are Ayats what can happen to those who discard signs
of ALI.
(from today onwards I will NOT waste time in typing ALI+lah=Allah.
It is natural that varying vertical level is there in faith.
the lower ones are mostly ignorant of higher level.
please note the level of inspiration is not co related with
one's reading,intelligence or cleverness or cuningness
but depth of conviction of Imam out your your own heart n self belief.
AB TO ALI AUR ALI SIRF ALI ALI ALI.
I meant reading junk other than what is read,said n heard in JK.
We have from absolute order with no pik or choose horizontally FROM IT.
dua,tasbih,farmans,ginan,qasidas n Ibaadat.
(please note speeches are not inclUded)
There are main food for moving upward to varing level vertically.
the junk in general to all material like attar,isani ,nathoo ,tattu N GATTU.
and 100 others who HAVE written about ismailism at tieIr own level
of conviction,INTELLECT as an Ismaili or non Ismaili, out of love or even hatered n jealousy.
As there is baatin involved in many material ,just to pick a paragraph
n copy paste is easy an dangerous as well
Some of good material from these acknowledge by Imam i.e Masnavi of rumi (at baatin level) can supplementary as Academics of religion
but the inspiration of Faith are part of daily JK routine material
A true Ismaili will seek answer first from Farmans ,Ayats(veri tough),
ginan n qasidas, etc as there are official menu for us.
one can even ask Al waez or tariqa board for clarity.
True Ismaili will get wealth n wealth material from it.
Only person with academic passion and time suspicious or jealous
will go material outside of it,many of it could be deceiving or at zahiri
level.
Only above from JK n Ibaadat can show way to Baatin and move a person
to marifat/Tawhid.
Leaving the rich main food n running outside the house of father to find junk food is sign of rebellion or disobedient child.
there are Ayats what can happen to those who discard signs
of ALI.
(from today onwards I will NOT waste time in typing ALI+lah=Allah.
It is natural that varying vertical level is there in faith.
the lower ones are mostly ignorant of higher level.
please note the level of inspiration is not co related with
one's reading,intelligence or cleverness or cuningness
but depth of conviction of Imam out your your own heart n self belief.
AB TO ALI AUR ALI SIRF ALI ALI ALI.
To nuseri -
Farameen-e-Mubarak, Qasida/Ginan, Tasbih, Ibadat, Du'a are all performed, recited in JK, as part of our Tariqa, and one need to follow them without a doubt. However, realistically there's no scope and feasibility to start reading books and other materials during formal JK hours, is it? Therefore, each JK -- or at least the JK that I am attending and the ones that I have been so far, here in north america -- has a library which is filled with books and reading material, which is at Jama'at's disposal. So, are you suggesting that those reading materials in JK's library are all junk? Then why JK has library in the first place? Why these reading materials are there, if they are considered 'junk' according to you? who approved them to be at Jama'at's disposal? Or maybe the JK that you are attending doesn't have a library? Maula Ali says it beautifully that "Do not hate what you do not know, for the greater part of knowledge consists of what you do not know." - Maula Ali. We should not hate something that we are not aware of it. I personally don't understand Ginans, simply because I don't understand the language; but should I start hating it? No way. I have as much respect for Ginans as I do for Qasidas, for example. Should I have the opportunity to learn the language, then for sure, I would start exploring them. There's no harm in seeking knowledge from reliable resources, and I believe in our local JK's these reading materials are available. So, I am sorry to tell you, that the materials at local JK's library are not considered 'junk' -- at least according to me. If you consider them junk, then please refrain from reading them; but I don't believe you must advocate for others that they are junk.
From the pattern of your responses and the way the discussion is moving, is the following that I have observed.
We are not here to show our love and Iman and conviction towards Maula. Our love towards Maula, our Iman and our faith is our personal affair and must remain personal. No one's interested in your love towards Maula because it's your personal affair; similarly, no one would be interested if I start shouting that I love Ali the most. Because it's my personal affair and my personal relation with my Maula and mine alone. It's no body's business. Besides that, there's no way we can quantify and measure our love towards Maula. We can demonstrate our love towards Maula by shouting on top of our lung that Ali is Allah, or I love Ali the most. Doesn't prove anything. I think the best thing we can do to prove that we truly love Maula is to obey his Farameen. Follow what HE encourages us to do and avoid what HE forbids us to do. If we do that, the result will manifest in our actions and speeches, naturally. You wouldn't have to prove yourself how much you love Ali.
What we are doing here, in these forums of discussion is to exchange and share knowledge to share. Remember knowledge and Love are two things. by acquiring knowldge of Tawhid, you get closer to Mahrifat. Different level of Souls are because of their proximity to the Divine source. I gave you an example, If a person is looking at a burning fire on top of a mountain from, say 100 KM, he might think that this light is a star. As the person gets closer and closer to the mountain and to the light, he starts thinking that maybe this light isn't a star; then he start questioning, what could it be? As he gets even closer and closer, there reaches a point that he for sure knows that the light wasn't a star, but it's a burning fire. That's the moment of certainty that he realizes the truth. But, as he gets to the top of the mountain, right besides the burning fire, then the distance, proximity, doubt, knowledge everything becomes irrelevant. He knows everything about the fire, mountain, the distance that he was there once.
The moral is that our soul/knowledge status depends on our proximity to the divine. As we nourish our soul by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time, we get closer to the divine. knowledge[Intellect] combined with love[Soul] and Iman, is the true mahrifat. One without the other is in vain.
What I want from you, is to share information [whether you copy/paste, paraphrase in your own words, etc...] not your conviction. After all your conviction is yours and yours alone and none of my or other's business. If someone believes that the idol is the true god, because god can manifest in anything, then that's that person's believe and conviction, and there's nothing you and I can do. However, we can provide him reasoning based on our understanding that god doesn't not manifest into just anything, but only Manifest Imam.
Farameen-e-Mubarak, Qasida/Ginan, Tasbih, Ibadat, Du'a are all performed, recited in JK, as part of our Tariqa, and one need to follow them without a doubt. However, realistically there's no scope and feasibility to start reading books and other materials during formal JK hours, is it? Therefore, each JK -- or at least the JK that I am attending and the ones that I have been so far, here in north america -- has a library which is filled with books and reading material, which is at Jama'at's disposal. So, are you suggesting that those reading materials in JK's library are all junk? Then why JK has library in the first place? Why these reading materials are there, if they are considered 'junk' according to you? who approved them to be at Jama'at's disposal? Or maybe the JK that you are attending doesn't have a library? Maula Ali says it beautifully that "Do not hate what you do not know, for the greater part of knowledge consists of what you do not know." - Maula Ali. We should not hate something that we are not aware of it. I personally don't understand Ginans, simply because I don't understand the language; but should I start hating it? No way. I have as much respect for Ginans as I do for Qasidas, for example. Should I have the opportunity to learn the language, then for sure, I would start exploring them. There's no harm in seeking knowledge from reliable resources, and I believe in our local JK's these reading materials are available. So, I am sorry to tell you, that the materials at local JK's library are not considered 'junk' -- at least according to me. If you consider them junk, then please refrain from reading them; but I don't believe you must advocate for others that they are junk.
From the pattern of your responses and the way the discussion is moving, is the following that I have observed.
We are not here to show our love and Iman and conviction towards Maula. Our love towards Maula, our Iman and our faith is our personal affair and must remain personal. No one's interested in your love towards Maula because it's your personal affair; similarly, no one would be interested if I start shouting that I love Ali the most. Because it's my personal affair and my personal relation with my Maula and mine alone. It's no body's business. Besides that, there's no way we can quantify and measure our love towards Maula. We can demonstrate our love towards Maula by shouting on top of our lung that Ali is Allah, or I love Ali the most. Doesn't prove anything. I think the best thing we can do to prove that we truly love Maula is to obey his Farameen. Follow what HE encourages us to do and avoid what HE forbids us to do. If we do that, the result will manifest in our actions and speeches, naturally. You wouldn't have to prove yourself how much you love Ali.
What we are doing here, in these forums of discussion is to exchange and share knowledge to share. Remember knowledge and Love are two things. by acquiring knowldge of Tawhid, you get closer to Mahrifat. Different level of Souls are because of their proximity to the Divine source. I gave you an example, If a person is looking at a burning fire on top of a mountain from, say 100 KM, he might think that this light is a star. As the person gets closer and closer to the mountain and to the light, he starts thinking that maybe this light isn't a star; then he start questioning, what could it be? As he gets even closer and closer, there reaches a point that he for sure knows that the light wasn't a star, but it's a burning fire. That's the moment of certainty that he realizes the truth. But, as he gets to the top of the mountain, right besides the burning fire, then the distance, proximity, doubt, knowledge everything becomes irrelevant. He knows everything about the fire, mountain, the distance that he was there once.
The moral is that our soul/knowledge status depends on our proximity to the divine. As we nourish our soul by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time, we get closer to the divine. knowledge[Intellect] combined with love[Soul] and Iman, is the true mahrifat. One without the other is in vain.
What I want from you, is to share information [whether you copy/paste, paraphrase in your own words, etc...] not your conviction. After all your conviction is yours and yours alone and none of my or other's business. If someone believes that the idol is the true god, because god can manifest in anything, then that's that person's believe and conviction, and there's nothing you and I can do. However, we can provide him reasoning based on our understanding that god doesn't not manifest into just anything, but only Manifest Imam.
I wish this forum had something like "I like It" button, so that readers can appreciate a good post.tret wrote:To nuseri -
Farameen-e-Mubarak, Qasida/Ginan, Tasbih, Ibadat, Du'a are all performed, recited in JK, as part of our Tariqa, and one need to follow them without a doubt. However, realistically there's no scope and feasibility to start reading books and other materials during formal JK hours, is it? Therefore, each JK -- or at least the JK that I am attending and the ones that I have been so far, here in north america -- has a library which is filled with books and reading material, which is at Jama'at's disposal. So, are you suggesting that those reading materials in JK's library are all junk? Then why JK has library in the first place? Why these reading materials are there, if they are considered 'junk' according to you? who approved them to be at Jama'at's disposal? Or maybe the JK that you are attending doesn't have a library? Maula Ali says it beautifully that "Do not hate what you do not know, for the greater part of knowledge consists of what you do not know." - Maula Ali. We should not hate something that we are not aware of it. I personally don't understand Ginans, simply because I don't understand the language; but should I start hating it? No way. I have as much respect for Ginans as I do for Qasidas, for example. Should I have the opportunity to learn the language, then for sure, I would start exploring them. There's no harm in seeking knowledge from reliable resources, and I believe in our local JK's these reading materials are available. So, I am sorry to tell you, that the materials at local JK's library are not considered 'junk' -- at least according to me. If you consider them junk, then please refrain from reading them; but I don't believe you must advocate for others that they are junk.
From the pattern of your responses and the way the discussion is moving, is the following that I have observed.
We are not here to show our love and Iman and conviction towards Maula. Our love towards Maula, our Iman and our faith is our personal affair and must remain personal. No one's interested in your love towards Maula because it's your personal affair; similarly, no one would be interested if I start shouting that I love Ali the most. Because it's my personal affair and my personal relation with my Maula and mine alone. It's no body's business. Besides that, there's no way we can quantify and measure our love towards Maula. We can demonstrate our love towards Maula by shouting on top of our lung that Ali is Allah, or I love Ali the most. Doesn't prove anything. I think the best thing we can do to prove that we truly love Maula is to obey his Farameen. Follow what HE encourages us to do and avoid what HE forbids us to do. If we do that, the result will manifest in our actions and speeches, naturally. You wouldn't have to prove yourself how much you love Ali.
What we are doing here, in these forums of discussion is to exchange and share knowledge to share. Remember knowledge and Love are two things. by acquiring knowldge of Tawhid, you get closer to Mahrifat. Different level of Souls are because of their proximity to the Divine source. I gave you an example, If a person is looking at a burning fire on top of a mountain from, say 100 KM, he might think that this light is a star. As the person gets closer and closer to the mountain and to the light, he starts thinking that maybe this light isn't a star; then he start questioning, what could it be? As he gets even closer and closer, there reaches a point that he for sure knows that the light wasn't a star, but it's a burning fire. That's the moment of certainty that he realizes the truth. But, as he gets to the top of the mountain, right besides the burning fire, then the distance, proximity, doubt, knowledge everything becomes irrelevant. He knows everything about the fire, mountain, the distance that he was there once.
The moral is that our soul/knowledge status depends on our proximity to the divine. As we nourish our soul by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time, we get closer to the divine. knowledge[Intellect] combined with love[Soul] and Iman, is the true mahrifat. One without the other is in vain.
What I want from you, is to share information [whether you copy/paste, paraphrase in your own words, etc...] not your conviction. After all your conviction is yours and yours alone and none of my or other's business. If someone believes that the idol is the true god, because god can manifest in anything, then that's that person's believe and conviction, and there's nothing you and I can do. However, we can provide him reasoning based on our understanding that god doesn't not manifest into just anything, but only Manifest Imam.
Admin, what do think of this idea/suggestion ?
Old Du'a has Ali SAHI ALLAH -sheri wrote:I have not had the chance to validate the "Vadi Firman" quoted, so I won't comment on that. However, everything else that you have claimed has a flaw in the evidence provided.
Dua - there was no change. Old dua has Aliyuallah. New dua has Aliyuallah.
Ali'yuallah as I earlier defined means "Ali chosen by Allah" or "Ali from Allah"
Old Dua - there are two versions floating around. One has Hindu concepts (Haji Bibi link), while the other one does not have Hindu concepts (posted on this website). So, which one is correct.
Ginans - They were right for the time to convert the Hindu to Muslims. Therefore, the ones with Hindu concepts are either being changed or shelved.
Firman - Yes, I accept the firman with Noor of Alllah. However, if you claim that Pir and IMAM both were Allah at any level, then Hazart Muhammad was also Allah. This claim is just outrageous, regardless of it being at a physical, spiritual or marifat level. This will never be supported in the Islamic doctrines. I still need to check the Vadi JK firman.
So far, nothing substantial quoted that would lead me to agree with your hypothesis. I hope the Vadi Firman exists, and the original translation is what you have quote so we can settle this matter.
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah at the Mission Conference validates this.
Who are you going to listen to? a text that you have or the word of the Imam.
The old Du'a had ALI SAHI ALLAH.
I have the text - both in Gujrati and Khojki - both have Ali Sahi Allah.
Now it is upto you.
It is late in China - i am off to bed.
Shams
haven't you figured it out - we don't question our Imam - He said it was a hadith - it was a hadith.zznoor wrote:This is fabricated hadith. Please post original Arabic, book and page, Narrator, chain of narrators..agakhani wrote:Imam Hasan Ali Shah's farrman # 3
ઈમામ હસન અલી શાહે ફરમાવ્યું : એક દિવસ નબી રસૂલ પોતાનો અતિ પવિત્ર પરિવાર સાથે બિરાજમાન હતા ત્યારે જનાબે ફાતેમા -તું - ઝોહરા (સ.અ.) પૂછ્યું , યા અબ્બાજાન, મને ખુદા દેખાડો, ત્યારે હુઝુરે ફરમાવ્યું, ખુદાનો હાથ ઈમામ હુસેન (સ.અ.) ઉપર છે, એ વખતે મૌલા મુર્તઝાઅલી (અ.સ.) પોતાનો હાથ મુબારક હઝરત હુસેન ઉપર રાખ્યો ત્યારે માતા ફાતેમા (સ.અ.) બીલી ઉઠયા હૈ: મૌલા અલી પોતેજ સહી ખુદા - અલી સહી અલ્લાહ છે.
Imam Hasan Ali Shah told: One day prophet Mohd was sited with his holy family then bibi Fateha (s..a.) asked him: hai dad! please show me the Allah? then rasool told her that Allah's hand on Imam hussein. at this moments H. Ali put his own hand on the head of Imam hussein, then bibi Fatema told with joy "mowla Ali him self is the Allah - Allah sahi Allah. Mumbai Aasho sanwat date 25 sanwat 1928 , Date 25th year 1872.
It is impossible, Bibi Fatema would say Ali is Allah in presence of Prophet without being corrected.
So far you haven't proved the 5 pillars are required for Muslims - or the 5x prayer - and you ask us to question our Imam?
Shams
Ofcourse the prophet did agree to Ali Allah.zznoor wrote:I admire your faith in your Imam. Beside Ismailis no Muslim consider them infallable. This hadith would mean that even Prophet agreed Ali=Allah. Allah is not = any human being. Period.Admin wrote:What Bibi Fatima said is as old as the compiled Quran is but what our Imams have said is very recent. And as I said many times each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of the previous Imam. For example when Shah Karim became our Imam, he said that and again in 1961 he said "I want you to remember the Farmans of my late Grandfather" (Dar es Salam ,Upanga JK, 7 Dec 1961 at 4:30pm and he also told me personnaly in 2010 that Farmans of previous Imams are also His Farmans because they are the Farmans of the Imam of the Time.
Hadith - Google it. and yes it is accepted by Shia.
To look at the face of Ali is to do Ibadat.
Also - let me ask you this.
The Quran says -
Obey Allah
Obey the Apostle? correct?
So explain to me - why when the Prophet asked for a pen and paper on his deathbed - Umar who is one of your Caliphs said - the Prophet is uttering rubbish?
Did the injunction of obeying the Apostle go out the Window? did Muhammad stop being a prophet?
FYI - this is an authenticated Hadith accepted both by Sunni and Shia Scholars.
You will find it in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
To make it easier WikiPedia has it too...
Also this begs another questions- the general Sunni populace assumes the prophet was illiterate - or Ummi - however in this instance - the Prophet is asking for a pen and paper? so - illiterate?
how's the shoe feeling zznoor?
Shams
Only difference is that I would hold Ginans above Qasidas - unless the Qasidas are written by Imams or the Pirs (imam Mustawda).tret wrote:To nuseri -
Farameen-e-Mubarak, Qasida/Ginan, Tasbih, Ibadat, Du'a are all performed, recited in JK, as part of our Tariqa, and one need to follow them without a doubt. However, realistically there's no scope and feasibility to start reading books and other materials during formal JK hours, is it? Therefore, each JK -- or at least the JK that I am attending and the ones that I have been so far, here in north america -- has a library which is filled with books and reading material, which is at Jama'at's disposal. So, are you suggesting that those reading materials in JK's library are all junk? Then why JK has library in the first place? Why these reading materials are there, if they are considered 'junk' according to you? who approved them to be at Jama'at's disposal? Or maybe the JK that you are attending doesn't have a library? Maula Ali says it beautifully that "Do not hate what you do not know, for the greater part of knowledge consists of what you do not know." - Maula Ali. We should not hate something that we are not aware of it. I personally don't understand Ginans, simply because I don't understand the language; but should I start hating it? No way. I have as much respect for Ginans as I do for Qasidas, for example. Should I have the opportunity to learn the language, then for sure, I would start exploring them. There's no harm in seeking knowledge from reliable resources, and I believe in our local JK's these reading materials are available. So, I am sorry to tell you, that the materials at local JK's library are not considered 'junk' -- at least according to me. If you consider them junk, then please refrain from reading them; but I don't believe you must advocate for others that they are junk.
From the pattern of your responses and the way the discussion is moving, is the following that I have observed.
We are not here to show our love and Iman and conviction towards Maula. Our love towards Maula, our Iman and our faith is our personal affair and must remain personal. No one's interested in your love towards Maula because it's your personal affair; similarly, no one would be interested if I start shouting that I love Ali the most. Because it's my personal affair and my personal relation with my Maula and mine alone. It's no body's business. Besides that, there's no way we can quantify and measure our love towards Maula. We can demonstrate our love towards Maula by shouting on top of our lung that Ali is Allah, or I love Ali the most. Doesn't prove anything. I think the best thing we can do to prove that we truly love Maula is to obey his Farameen. Follow what HE encourages us to do and avoid what HE forbids us to do. If we do that, the result will manifest in our actions and speeches, naturally. You wouldn't have to prove yourself how much you love Ali.
What we are doing here, in these forums of discussion is to exchange and share knowledge to share. Remember knowledge and Love are two things. by acquiring knowldge of Tawhid, you get closer to Mahrifat. Different level of Souls are because of their proximity to the Divine source. I gave you an example, If a person is looking at a burning fire on top of a mountain from, say 100 KM, he might think that this light is a star. As the person gets closer and closer to the mountain and to the light, he starts thinking that maybe this light isn't a star; then he start questioning, what could it be? As he gets even closer and closer, there reaches a point that he for sure knows that the light wasn't a star, but it's a burning fire. That's the moment of certainty that he realizes the truth. But, as he gets to the top of the mountain, right besides the burning fire, then the distance, proximity, doubt, knowledge everything becomes irrelevant. He knows everything about the fire, mountain, the distance that he was there once.
The moral is that our soul/knowledge status depends on our proximity to the divine. As we nourish our soul by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the Imam of the Time, we get closer to the divine. knowledge[Intellect] combined with love[Soul] and Iman, is the true mahrifat. One without the other is in vain.
What I want from you, is to share information [whether you copy/paste, paraphrase in your own words, etc...] not your conviction. After all your conviction is yours and yours alone and none of my or other's business. If someone believes that the idol is the true god, because god can manifest in anything, then that's that person's believe and conviction, and there's nothing you and I can do. However, we can provide him reasoning based on our understanding that god doesn't not manifest into just anything, but only Manifest Imam.
Ginans written by Pirs (Imam Mustawda) to me have the status of Farmans.
Shams
Thanks Shams,Old Du'a has Ali SAHI ALLAH -
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah at the Mission Conference validates this.
Who are you going to listen to? a text that you have or the word of the Imam.
The old Du'a had ALI SAHI ALLAH.
I have the text - both in Gujrati and Khojki - both have Ali Sahi Allah.
Now it is upto you.
It is late in China - i am off to bed.
That is what I am keep telling this folks from a week that IN OLD DU'A THE WORD USED IS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH" not ALIYULLAH. but every one (and may be Admin too) do not believe that, they may think I am not telling the truth!! but I am telling the truth.
I asked them a question which option you would believe or accept as a solid proof that, in old dua Ali Sahi allah word used?
There are 4 options which are as follows:-
1: Original Manuscripts which are still available in Khojaki and Gujarati language? which shows word "ALI SAHI ALLAH" NOT ALIULLAH! which were published by Recreation Club of India.
or
2: A translators's wrong translation who does not know Khojaki or Gujarati?
or
3, A OLD GATPAT AND OLD REGULAR DU'A PERFORMER before new du'a was introduced? my uncle, who is still alive and confirmed with me that he and every other dua reciters were used to speak the real word as 'ALI SAHI ALLAH" not ALIULLAH in Jamat Khanas. period.
or
4, FARMANS OF HASAN ALI SHAH, ALI SHAH AND SULTAN MOHAMMED SHAH IN WHICH FARMANS THEY ALL THREE CLAIMED THEMSELVES AS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH'?
Unfortunately nobody has given me answer of above option yet. but what you think? which options you will accept?
ShamsB wrote:
Only difference is that I would hold Ginans above Qasidas - unless the Qasidas are written by Imams or the Pirs (imam Mustawda).
Ginans written by Pirs (Imam Mustawda) to me have the status of Farmans.
Shams
Is this your assumption that Qasidas are written by others? Or you actually know it for fact?
If it's simple assumption, then how would you draw the conclusion?
Do you know who were the Hujjat[Pir] during Imam Mustansir billah?
I stated my ignorance about Ginan; however, I didn't discriminate the status of Ginan. However, when you make that assertion, either you must know entirely Qasidas, as well as Ginans to make the comparison and draw the conclusion. Otherwise your conclusion is biased and influenced based on background and history.
FYI, Nasir-e-Khusraw was Hujjat-e-Azam of his time [Hujjat = Pir].
Okay, I am accepting it and you are correct.agakhani wrote: That is what I am keep telling this folks from a week that IN OLD DU'A THE WORD USED IS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH" not ALIYULLAH. but every one (and may be Admin too) do not believe that, they may think I am not telling the truth!! but I am telling the truth.
Now what? What should we do?
My main point wasn't to hold Qasida and Ginan above one another or otherwise; my main point for this example was to show that what we don't know, should not be hated/refused.ShamsB wrote:
Only difference is that I would hold Ginans above Qasidas - unless the Qasidas are written by Imams or the Pirs (imam Mustawda).
Ginans written by Pirs (Imam Mustawda) to me have the status of Farmans.
Shams
Here we are separate in thinking!, Nasir-e-Khusraw was not authorized pir, as per the history of pirs, he didn't hold the pir position any time, however we are calling him as a 'PIR' to give him a respect because of tremendous and unforgettable works in Central Asia, he made many Ismailis over there, however he was not actual JOMADHARI/SATTADHARI PIR at all. if you look the list of pirs (not only for Indian pirs but all pirs) then you won't find his name in it!! Why? because he was not authorized "joma pir".FYI, Nasir-e-Khusraw was Hujjat-e-Azam of his time [Hujjat = Pir].
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
My goodness, you guys are still fighting it out !!!
Can't we refer to the holy quran and settle this once and for all ???
21:73
And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
32:24
And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.
17:71
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams
Can't we refer to the holy quran and settle this once and for all ???
21:73
And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
32:24
And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.
17:71
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams
zznoor wrote:Shiraz.virani wrote: All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imamsSome Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory. He also knew when and where each Aya were revealed. If it was compromised he would have corrected it. He was Amir ul Mumin for all Muslims for more then 5 years.Admin wrote:Please refer to the discussion on the compilation of the Mushaf (Written present book known as Quran) after the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and after Allah had declared since long time to have completed the Faith of Islam.
shiraz.virani wrote:My goodness, you guys are still fighting it out !!!
Can't we refer to the holy quran and settle this once and for all ???
21:73
And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
32:24
And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.
17:71
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams
You have no idea
To further allude, please carefully read the following verse. It appears as if God is speaking in third person, but is He?
This will require deeper discussion; whoever wants to take this verse to the next level, please let me know. Secrets are hidden in this verse.There is no God except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. (6:102)