Abe Shafa

shirazkali · Post by **shirazkali** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:09 am

what is the spiritual significance of the Abe Shafa? and why do we recite three dua's
"Dua Abe Shafa Isthapan"
"Dua Abe Shafa Uthapan"
"Dua Abe Shafa Qayam"

why does the particular part of the "dua" or "Quranic Verses" were selected for each Abe Shafa's Dua.

How does the meaning of these "Quranic verses" relate to the each Abe shafa's Dua.

what is the concept behind the "Abe Shafa" and whole "Ghat Paat." how significant are the Bowls, Plate and other items?

I am also concerned about using the "Agar Bati", while some uses different thing. what is the effect of using the "Agar Bati", and its significance?

how many times we should say " Farman" during our fifth part, if you are reciting dua? some say seven and say nine. why do we say "farman"?

why do we stand up for the "Dua Abe Shafa Qayam". while we stand up for "Dua Abe Shafa Qayam", some pickup the Ghat Paat and put it down, does it necessary. i don't see this in the Pakistan, but i see in the USA(in some jamat khana's).

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:33 pm

Aab-e-Shafa means water of purity. It is also called as Amee jal or Amee ras which means holy water. By drinking this sins are forgiven and one can become pure.
Hazir Imam said in His Farman that only when you drink it with iman and true faith than your heart will be cleansed.
At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH], there was also concept of Niyaz. He used to dip His Holy Finger in water and than gave it to momins to drink and that was niyaz.
It was also at the time of Raja Haree Chandra and Taara Rani.
Once Gandhi Came in Jamat Khana and ismailis were drinking Niyaz. Gandhi asked Mukhi can I drink it? Missionary stopped it and said it is only for those who have made bayyat to Imam.You can not drink it. Ginan was being recited at that time
sugra ho so bhar bhar pyee
nugra jayee pyaassa
The one who has true lord drinks it One who has not true lord goes thirsty.
Gandhi said I am nugra [without gur/Imam].

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:00 pm

star_munir wrote:Once Gandhi Came in Jamat Khana and ismailis were drinking Niyaz. Gandhi asked Mukhi can I drink it? Missionary stopped it and said it is only for those who have made bayyat to Imam.You can not drink it. Ginan was being recited at that time
sugra ho so bhar bhar pyee
nugra jayee pyaassa
The one who has true lord drinks it One who has not true lord goes thirsty.
Gandhi said I am nugra [without gur/Imam].

YAM Star_Munir

Interesting story about Gandhi stepping inside JK. Where did you hear this and is this info credible?

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:12 pm

Mowla Ali Madad
This is real story. I heard it from many people and also once Abu Ali Said this is his waez and Gandhi was given permission to come Jk

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:30 pm

By the way I am happy with your question as you asked me reference. It is very shameful that some people make false stories about Imam,Prophet etc and than spreat it but dont worry I do not post any story or any thing which I think is unreliable or are not authentic.

Faria · Post by **Faria** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:50 am

Can anyone explain the difference between Abe Safa and Abe Shifa?
Why do people run to drink the Niaz after the first dua - I was told because the niaz heals ur body - where is that referenced?

Betty · Post by **Betty** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:11 am

Faria wrote:Why do people run to drink the Niaz after the first dua - I was told because the niaz heals ur body - where is that referenced?

Do you mean after the second Du'a?

Faria · Post by **Faria** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:40 am

No actually after Ghat Phat Uthapan.

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:09 pm

Faria wrote:Can anyone explain the difference between Abe Safa and Abe Shifa?
Why do people run to drink the Niaz after the first dua - I was told because the niaz heals ur body - where is that referenced?

It is called Abe Safa before Dua Uthapanji. It purifies the soul.

After Dua Uthapanji, you can take it [or take home], it is called Abe Shifa because it heals the body.

Personal opinion, no flames please.

Nagib

Faria · Post by **Faria** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:26 pm

Yes Nagib
That is exactly what I have always heard. Just wondering if anyone knows where this belief stems from, any reference?

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm

Faria wrote:Yes Nagib
That is exactly what I have always heard. Just wondering if anyone knows where this belief stems from, any reference?

I think I have seen a Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah that one should take Nyaz to sick people for them to heal. That counts for Abe Shifa.

When the Gat Pat Uthapanji dua ends, all the angels [330 millions] go home so the intensity of their prayer is not there anymore to help us purify our souls. These angels are always attending the ceremonies between Gat Pat Sthapna and Ghat Pat Uthapna and add their prayer to those of the people drinking Nyaz.

By the way, some times Hazar Imam pronounces "Nyadj" like typical indian desi

Nagib

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:36 pm

nagib wrote:
Faria wrote:Can anyone explain the difference between Abe Safa and Abe Shifa?
Why do people run to drink the Niaz after the first dua - I was told because the niaz heals ur body - where is that referenced?
It is called Abe Safa before Dua Uthapanji. It purifies the soul.

After Dua Uthapanji, you can take it [or take home], it is called Abe Shifa because it heals the body.

Personal opinion, no flames please.

Nagib

Nagib,

This was a farman of Aga Ali Shah in his joma as the Pir.

also it is not proper to say dua diyo aabeshaafa staphanji..because only MHI can establish/create niyaz/aabeshaafa
the correct word is Ghatpat Staphanji..because you are praying to establish Ghatpat which means Ghat - Community/Jamat & Paat which means Unity...(not paath the table).
The word ghatpaat hails from the Purbi Basha which used to be spoken in Eastern Sindh/Western Gujrat at the time of Pir Sadardeen.
somehow in translation..people changed ghaatpaat to aabeshaafa.
When we say Dua diyo aabeshaafa staphanji..we are claiming to be hazar imam - because we are claiming to establish/create niyaz.
Also - think of it this way..Niyaz/aabeshaafa..is already aabeshaafa...doesn't need any prayer.

As for standing up/sitting down when doing dua diyo ghatpaath staphanji..the prescribed method is to sit down and recite the dua...however...in the early 60's a rather heavy gentleman was given ghatpat dua varo in Darkhana in Nairobi and he said it standing up..so everyone assumed that this was the new directive and we followed it ever since.

Please let me know if there are more questions or concerns.

This is a major part of my thesis...so i'll be glad to answer.

Shamsb

shak00 · Post by **shak00** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:31 pm

ShamsB wrote:
As for standing up/sitting down when doing dua diyo ghatpaath staphanji..the prescribed method is to sit down and recite the dua...however...in the early 60's a rather heavy gentleman was given ghatpat dua varo in Darkhana in Nairobi and he said it standing up..so everyone assumed that this was the new directive and we followed it ever since.

Then why hasn't this been corrected ever since? It makes you think how many more things we may be doing wrong in Jamat Khana on the account of an Ismaili misleading the Jamat.

I have heard that Imam SMS (AS) directed the ceremonies performed in Jamat Khana. So I assume the correct method of Ghat Paat Ceremonies was also shown at the time?

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:57 pm

shak00 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
As for standing up/sitting down when doing dua diyo ghatpaath staphanji..the prescribed method is to sit down and recite the dua...however...in the early 60's a rather heavy gentleman was given ghatpat dua varo in Darkhana in Nairobi and he said it standing up..so everyone assumed that this was the new directive and we followed it ever since.
Then why hasn't this been corrected ever since? It makes you think how many more things we may be doing wrong in Jamat Khana on the account of an Ismaili misleading the Jamat.

I have heard that Imam SMS (AS) directed the ceremonies performed in Jamat Khana. So I assume the correct method of Ghat Paat Ceremonies was also shown at the time?

Hazar Imam both in this Joma and the previous joma said numerous times, do not forsake your old traditions, do not think they have no values, and also said that ONLY THE IMAM HAS THE AUTHORITY TO CHANGE ANY PRACTICES OF THE FAITH. And he's also said..our faith is one of conviction, not one of convience and you can either follow the faith or leave it..but can not change it, yet we are trying to make the faith follow our needs..an example of this...chandraat being held on saturdays in parts of canada, or majlises being moved to accomdate picnics and weddings, or AKF events being held till late on Friday nights impacting attendance on morning Jamat Khanas.
We do a lot of things in Jamat Khana that aren't exactly kosher (pardon the expression), you might notice that in the US, in some jamat khanas there is no light lit during ghatpat - however in Canada, Europe and East Africa as well as most other parts of Asia that has the Ghatpat Ceremony the light is present.
This light is meant to signify the presence of Noor during Ghatpat Ceremony.
(For those ismailies from Bagamoyo might have heard the myth of the candle igniting itself alight during ghatpat dua in the late 1800s. (have not been able to verify it..but have heard this one from a number of sources))

There was a Farman of MSMS that whereever Ghatpat is established, I will be there giving you niyaz - and he requested that ghatpat be in front of the jamat khana..not to the sides...how many jamatkhanas actually follow this rule?

The ghatpat utensils are also supposed to be purifed by Lobaan.
This is a prerequiste not only mentioned by the Pir..but also in the Quran. However we choose not to follow that.
How many jamat khanas use agarbati at all? forget lobaan.

In terms of making sukreet.. the Pirs have given us a very specific recipe, yet our sukreet umedvars tend to overdo this as well.
Pir states :Kheer (milk) Khand (sugar) Grath (Ghee) bhojan (Suji) Amrat (niyaz)....those are the ingredients of sukreet..nowhere is there mention of nuts or raisins or saffron...
seems that the sikhs have managed to keep to this recipe a lot better than we have (ofcourse without amrat).
Each one of the items that the pir mentions in sukreet has a meaning to it.
It is a lesson to us in terms of what sort of Momins we should be. there is no signficance of the nuts or the raisins (unless it means us khojas ofcourse

)
If folks are interested in learning, I will put out a posting breaking it down.

As for MSMS directing the ceremonies to be performed in Jamatkhana, this was done by him during his first visit to Zanzibar in 1899, MSMS spent 2 months in Zanzibar and used to come to Jamatkhana daily and established most of our practices and educated the Jamat on how to perform most of our ceremonies and rites and rituals, from the recitation of Dua to how to do Nandi and the protocols for Mukhi/Kamadia Sahebs.

Another example of something that is being discontinued but shouldn't be is Mowla na Rojo or Satima Rojo Majlis in the US. Note this is only happening in the US not anywhere else in the world, where the directive is coming from...no one knows. And if one were to study history and hadiths one will discover that all of these traditions are not new fangled creations but have been practised and instituted by the Holy Prophet himself, including Ghatpat and Chantas.

Vasanji,
I will have no problems answering any questions or sharing what i have learnt and my source..i've been at this for about 5 years now..and have been asking for extentions everytime I think i am done, because i come across new information.
I am even willing to have a separate mailing list where I can answer direct questions from what I have learnt or direct folks in the correct direction to have their questions answered.

Please feel free to email me [email protected].

Shamsb.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:40 pm

And one more example of something that is being discontinued is recitation of Chogadia Ginans in India.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:15 pm

Over the last few days - I've observed this occurence..maybe someone else has seen it happening too.
A girl (mid 20s) has been coming to me for dua karavi over the past 2-3 days and says tobho tobho
however she ends it after Bando Sirta Pa Guneghar - she does not say Ya Shah tu....
so today..after JK was over, i approached her and asked her why she did that?
(I mean i have folks that say Ya Ali tu Rahem Kar instead of ya Shah..but that's okay to as there is a plea for forgiveness in there not just acceptance)
Her response to me was that a Mukhisaheb in Atlanta has been instructing people not to say Ya Shah Tu Bakshiye Bakshan Haar...and i explained to her that that was one of the purposes of Dua Karavi - pointing out the origin of the Tobho Tobho Taksidar from our Old Dua. What concerned me was that apparently this Mukhisaheb has been instructing Night School teachers in the atlanta area to teach the tobho tobho taksidar without the Ya Shah to bakshie Bakshan Haar.

Does anyone have any insight into this issue? this is the first i am hearing of this...
My understanding is...any changes have to COME FROM HAZAR IMAM!

Shams

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:21 pm

I dont think that changes have come from Hazar Imam otherwise every one would be saying the same. But however, a girl from Karachi told me that that they are taught not to say Ya Shah tu...the reason was simply that ki only Allah can forgive the sins.
Shame on the people who are making changes. Thats Kaljug where people commit sins in house of prayers. If some one is doing wrong practise it is better to guide them in light of Ginans and Farmans.
One more surprising thing is Arabic is taught in Pak night schools. I wonder when Imam made Farman to learn Arabic language.
Why dont people try to understand "Quran" in light of "Ginans" although Imam has said that Ginans are tafseer of Quran but for some people value of Ginans is just like conversion tool only. How many times we want Imam remind all the things again and again for us? Some people thing Tariqa board and Council etc has complete authority over Ginans, Farmans and every thing. Thats totally wrong concept. Yes, we should respect Tariqa board, council etc but if they are doing any thing against Farman, Ginans etc then there is no need to follow them. Only Supreme authority is Imam and Pir. No one else is perfect !

Virgo2 · Post by **Virgo2** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:55 pm

I am curious, brother Shams, after the girl said Tobo Toba Taksidar...Gunegar,

How did you give her du'a? Reading you in this forum, I believe you must have followed the usual protocol and told her may Mowla forgive her sins, etc. May be you should have asked her how the Mukhi in Atlanta responds when she does the "du'a karavi".

I wonder how these people can call themselves Ismailis. They do not seem to know the basics of Ismailism. Imam is the foundation of not only Ismailis but Shi'as too.

Without the acceptance of Imam everything we do in the name of religion is null and void.

Please watch the following which is written and produced by a Pakistani. May be the Mukhi of Atlanta needs a refresher course from a non-Ismaili Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=AzYEqnGLjUs

Virgo2

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:57 pm

Virgo2 wrote:I am curious, brother Shams, after the girl said Tobo Toba Taksidar...Gunegar,

How did you give her du'a? Reading you in this forum, I believe you must have followed the usual protocol and told her may Mowla forgive her sins, etc. May be you should have asked her how the Mukhi in Atlanta responds when she does the "du'a karavi".

I wonder how these people can call themselves Ismailis. They do not seem to know the basics of Ismailism. Imam is the foundation of not only Ismailis but Shi'as too.

Without the acceptance of Imam everything we do in the name of religion is null and void.

Please watch the following which is written and produced by a Pakistani. May be the Mukhi of Atlanta needs a refresher course from a non-Ismaili Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=AzYEqnGLjUs

Virgo2

I did the usual..Niyat Murad Kabul Kar, Kul Gunah Maaf Kare, Sukhi Salamat...etc.
The other thing that I have observed and this is common across the U.S., no where else in the world where my travels have taken me, the mukhi/kamadia saheb(a)s that actually say Kul Gunah Maaf kare is not a high percentage either. I think I am one of 2 or 3 that say it in my Jamat Khana...no one else does, the same thing during channtas....very few actually understand that the Chaandraat Channta is for different sins, the Baiytul Khayal Channta is for different things, the other majlis Channta equate to different things....

I think this goes back to the reason Irshad v/s Farmans - MHI is hinting to us, that you don't consider me as the Imam, I will stop giving Farmans!

Shams

Virgo2 · Post by **Virgo2** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:21 pm

Sorry, brother Shams, Please be patient with me.

I need a little more clarification. When you said Niyat Murad puri Kar.

Did you Proceed by "Mowla tamari Niyat Murad puri Kare" or you just said" Niyat Murad Puri Kar". If the latter, then it does not make sense to me. Who is suppose to do Niyat Murad puri Kare?

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:16 am

Virgo2 wrote:Sorry, brother Shams, Please be patient with me.

I need a little more clarification. When you said Niyat Murad puri Kar.

Did you Proceed by "Mowla tamari Niyat Murad puri Kare" or you just said" Niyat Murad Puri Kar". If the latter, then it does not make sense to me. Who is suppose to do Niyat Murad puri Kare?

I meant i did the whole thing..was just paraphrasing..trying to keep some things private - aliyuallah niyat murad kabul kare...etc...hazar imam kul gunah..etc.....

that's what i said.

am just saddened by the whole incident where we have ismailies trying very very hard to reduce the status of the Imam.
what next - remove the words Tawasalu indel masahibu bi mowlakumin Haziril Maujid (just an example) from the dua?

Wake up folks...understand your faith...

Shams

zubair_mahamood · Post by **zubair_mahamood** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:11 pm

ShamsB wrote:am just saddened by the whole incident where we have ismailies trying very very hard to reduce the status of the Imam.
what next - remove the words Tawasalu indel masahibu bi mowlakumin Haziril Maujid (just an example) from the dua?
Wake up folks...understand your faith...
Shams

Brother shamsB I don’t think anyone can change Imam Status…. I think it depend on Individuals perception of Imam, Imam for some is just an interpreter (one who interprets Faith), for some Imam is a teacher, for some Imam is Guide and for some Imam is everything…! It will be difficult to balance a ship If all come or stay at a side. I think Imam is always constant but we are seating at different places being in a same ship, so from our seats we see Imam differently…. Just imagine if my father came to town with 100 euros and after 25 years he is a successful business man then it don’t mean I must also leave home with 100 euros to start my life….! So I think we must start from where they are to make them understand our faith… with your knowledge I think it’s easy for you to explain our concepts….

I don’t understand Gujarati; I had funny incidence cause of it. When I meet Ismailies they ask me again n again how come u don’t understand Gujarati (may be they think how do I understand instructions, I think we don’t need language we need an heart for understanding) If someone’s perception of Imam is not as yours or as ours is then it don’t mean they don’t understand faith may be they r bought up in difficult time… well u can help them to understand concepts and we must understand that we all don’t come from same back ground… !

Zubair Mahamood

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:57 pm

zubair_mahamood wrote:
ShamsB wrote:am just saddened by the whole incident where we have ismailies trying very very hard to reduce the status of the Imam.
what next - remove the words Tawasalu indel masahibu bi mowlakumin Haziril Maujid (just an example) from the dua?
Wake up folks...understand your faith...
Shams
Brother shamsB I don’t think anyone can change Imam Status…. I think it depend on Individuals perception of Imam, Imam for some is just an interpreter (one who interprets Faith), for some Imam is a teacher, for some Imam is Guide and for some Imam is everything…! It will be difficult to balance a ship If all come or stay at a side. I think Imam is always constant but we are seating at different places being in a same ship, so from our seats we see Imam differently…. Just imagine if my father came to town with 100 euros and after 25 years he is a successful business man then it don’t mean I must also leave home with 100 euros to start my life….! So I think we must start from where they are to make them understand our faith… with your knowledge I think it’s easy for you to explain our concepts….

I don’t understand Gujarati; I had funny incidence cause of it. When I meet Ismailies they ask me again n again how come u don’t understand Gujarati (may be they think how do I understand instructions, I think we don’t need language we need an heart for understanding) If someone’s perception of Imam is not as yours or as ours is then it don’t mean they don’t understand faith may be they r bought up in difficult time… well u can help them to understand concepts and we must understand that we all don’t come from same back ground… !

Zubair Mahamood

So brother zubair you are saying it is okay for someone to stand up and change a tradition that is centuries old based on that individuals perception of the IMAM?

That is what this Mukhisaheb in Atlanta did effectively enforce his VIEW/PERCEPTION of the IMAM on the Jamat.

Shams

st0necol · Post by **st0necol** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:12 pm

Well..There's lots of discussion going around on 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar'

Well...Since I was in Nightschool here in Darkhana Karachi Pakistan. I have attended night school till 8th.

I've been taught only 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar'

Maybe the future teachers couldn't pick me up, but as far as I remember, It was only 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar' and till today now i am 18 and i still say the same thing. Only ShamsB corrected me [:P]

Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar 'Ya Shah Tu Baksie Bakshan Haar'

Could anyone please explain the meaning of it completely?

And also one question's answer I couldn't get here and it's that why do we recite on Fridays or on majlises in the first dua (Ya Ali Ya Mohammad on Farman? in the middle of the dua when the one who recites dua says Farman!)

And why seven times?

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:07 pm

st0necol wrote:Well..There's lots of discussion going around on 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar'

Well...Since I was in Nightschool here in Darkhana Karachi Pakistan. I have attended night school till 8th.

I've been taught only 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar'

Maybe the future teachers couldn't pick me up, but as far as I remember, It was only 'Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar' and till today now i am 18 and i still say the same thing. Only ShamsB corrected me [:P]

Tobo Tobo Taksie Daar 'Ya Shah Tu Baksie Bakshan Haar'

Could anyone please explain the meaning of it completely?

And also one question's answer I couldn't get here and it's that why do we recite on Fridays or on majlises in the first dua (Ya Ali Ya Mohammad on Farman? in the middle of the dua when the one who recites dua says Farman!)

And why seven times?

StoneCol - the correct thing to say is and this is from our old dua for those that want the reference:

Tobho Tobho Taksidar, Bando Sirta Paguneghar, Ya Shah Tu Bakshie Bakshan Haar.

I repent, I repent, I am sinful from head to toe, O lord please forgive me, you are the forgiver of sins.

<In recent days, I have observed people saying Ya Shah Bando Guneghar when doing Dua Karavi, which does throw one off when giving dua ashish>

I will roll in the answer to the Ghatpat question in as well.
In relation to that the complete phrase in the old dua was:

Tobho Tobho Taksidar, Bando Sirta Paguneghar, Ya Shah Tu Bakshie Bakshan Haar - Dua to Pir parave, Bando to Vinanti Kari

the addition means - Dua is recited by the Pir, the Bando (slave) can only beg/beseech; thus establishing that the recitation of the Dua is the job of the Pir. At the beginning of the dua, the reciter asks "Amr Mukhisaheb(a) i.e. Do i have the Authority Mukhisaheb?..and Mukhisaheb says Amr Hazar Imam - Upon the Authority of Hazar Imam - you have the authority.
During the recitation of the dua - even the Mukhisaheb is under the authority of the reciter of the dua.

During Ghatpat Dua, the closed Kumbh symbolizes the Jamat/the Unity of the Jamat - at the start - the Kumbh is handed to the reciter of the dua with the phrase "HAI ZINDA" (Note: it is not GHAT JAMAT KE HAIZINDA - we are not proclaiming that the Jamat is Haizinda (ever living), we are proclaiming the IMAM is Hai Zinda - we have turned Hai Zinda into a greeting of sorts)
Then the reciter starts the Staphan ji dua - the establishment of the unity in the community.
The opening of the Khumbh in a way symbolizes the creation story - the individual pyali's symoblize the jamat - the niyaz which is also known as noor is poured into each pyali - according to the ginans/old dua/1899 directions of MSMS - each individual pyali should be filled not 5 or 7 or 11..but EACH PYALI should be filled as should each plate of Siro have niyaz poured over it....one - it symbolizes that there is abundance in the house of the Imam - each pyali is filled, two - each pyali (being) is filled with NOOR - (i.e creation - soul)
When the reciter says Farman - it symbolizes that the water was made into Niyaz by the Farman of the Imam - the Jamat responds Ya Ali Ya Mohammed - signalling acceptance that it was by the Farman of the Shah/Pir that the Niyaz was created.

During Ghatpat, all pyalis should always have niyaz in them until Uthapan ji dua, as should the Kumbh have niyaz in it.
All Ghatpats should have a light on it - that should be lit, that symbolizes Noor....in the U.S. some jamat khana's don't have this, the irony is that in this GJ year, we read Sura Noor in jamat khana for the tasbihs on Big days - the sura talks about a light, a lit light...but somehow some of our brethern fail to see the significance.

One other thing I will bring up - is for the folks that give the Siro/Sukreet Umedwari - The recipe given to us by Pir Sadardeen is : KHEER, KHAND, GRATH, AMRAT, BHOJAN; there is no Kesar, there is no badam, there is no Kaju, why can't we follow that simple recipe? Somehow the Sikhs have managed to keep it that way.

Anyways..sorry for the long post....
Feel free to ask more questions - I will do my best to answer.

Shams

st0necol · Post by **st0necol** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:45 pm

So shams you mean that it's not necessarily required to do it seven times?

And I am a bit confused here. Are there seven pyalis in that plate cos we normally have 5 pyalis in a plate? so that every pyali is filled and the reciter of the dua says Farman!!

each individual pyali should be filled not 5 or 7 or 11..but EACH PYALI should be filled as should each plate of Siro have niyaz poured over it....one - it symbolizes that there is abundance in the house of the Imam - each pyali is filled, two - each pyali (being) is filled with NOOR - (i.e creation - soul)

but EACH PYALI should be filled as should each plate of Siro have niyaz poured over it.

We pour niyaz on Siro after dua right? Here it happens when there are announcements going on or ginans just few minutes before all the activities are taken place. [/i]

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:04 am

st0necol wrote:So shams you mean that it's not necessarily required to do it seven times?

And I am a bit confused here. Are there seven pyalis in that plate cos we normally have 5 pyalis in a plate? so that every pyali is filled and the reciter of the dua says Farman!!

each individual pyali should be filled not 5 or 7 or 11..but EACH PYALI should be filled as should each plate of Siro have niyaz poured over it....one - it symbolizes that there is abundance in the house of the Imam - each pyali is filled, two - each pyali (being) is filled with NOOR - (i.e creation - soul)

but EACH PYALI should be filled as should each plate of Siro have niyaz poured over it.

We pour niyaz on Siro after dua right? Here it happens when there are announcements going on or ginans just few minutes before all the activities are taken place. [/i]

The number of pyalis on a plate varies by the Jamatkhana, I have seen where there are 4 pyalis to where there are 7-8 pyalis, each pyali on every plate that came out of that kumbh need to be filled along with the SIRO during the 5th part of dua. NOT AFTER THE DUA. Niyaz is poured on DURING THE DUA along with the PYALIS and FARMAN BEING SAID.
So if there are 2 plates that came out of the kumbh with 4 pyalis (i.e. 8 pyalis) and 2 plates of siro - there should be a total of 11 Farmans being said - 1 for the Kumbh, 10 for the pyalis/Sukreet.

I have heard that in the interest of saving time or reducing noise, there are jamat khanas that only do it 2/3 times (yes, i know it's going to take an extra 20-30 seconds, but we're about abbreviating our ceremonies these days, these 20/30 seconds will probably hinder our jamat's gossiping and business dealings - yes i am being fastidious and sarcastic)

Hope this answers your questions.

Shams
Shams

st0necol · Post by **st0necol** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:15 am

Hmm Thank you..

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:42 am

There is a parallel thread on this issue at:

Rites and Ceremonies --> An Interpretation of the Ghat Paat Ceremony

Post by **Admin** » Mon May 06, 2013 3:54 am

as received

From: Amyn Gilani

I am unable to login to the site to post this question as such emailing
you. What do we recite before having Niyaz. I have heard various different
things so I just want to verify this.

Thanks for all your help in advance.

Thanks,
With Regards

www.ismaili.net

Abe Shafa

Abe Shafa

An interesting Occurence.

abe shafa

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