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Discussion on doctrinal issues
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tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.

During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.

80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.

39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.

In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.

Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.

after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.

Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.

This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.

There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.

If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.

for forced approval I have explained before

An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it

" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."

This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.

THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.

Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.

As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.

HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.

Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.


well, I am really not interested in your long-wended, beating around bush answer, really.

It's a very simple question I asked you. You aparantly see something very seriously wrong with these concepts! So, why are you so shy to tell us what's wrong? The only possible explanation, I could think of, is that you really don't understand what does it say.

Concept of God
the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.
Concept of Imam
In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

My final Salvo is still pending of question no1.

I have given my understanding to of question no 2 n 3 of what is Imam
to me and God to me.( no copy paste as I have a mind of my own)

Understanding of concept paper can differ person to person.I do not sing the tune of the leaders.IT IS NOT A FARMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Concept papers are academics of religion for a part of syllabus then.
'Academics of religion' are are very very different to 'Inspiration of Faith.' by noorani hidayat blessed upon the Pir n Dais
material both of them being approved.

Academics of religion can be interpreted/ tweaked by board or institution or IIS,whether approved or not.

when the word 'TAUGHT' is used, It is specifically to change the phrases or lines in teaching material of academic in nature.

You have answer question no 2.
I will cross examine only after all the question are answered
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

My final Salvo is still pending of question no1.

I have given my understanding to of question no 2 n 3 of what is Imam
to me and God to me.( no copy paste as I have a mind of my own)

Understanding of concept paper can differ person to person.I do not sing the tune of the leaders.IT IS NOT A FARMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Concept papers are academics of religion for a part of syllabus then.
'Academics of religion' are are very very different to 'Inspiration of Faith.' by noorani hidayat blessed upon the Pir n Dais
material both of them being approved.

Academics of religion can be interpreted/ tweaked by board or institution or IIS,whether approved or not.

when the word 'TAUGHT' is used, It is specifically to change the phrases or lines in teaching material of academic in nature.

You have answer question no 2.
I will cross examine only after all the question are answered

Well, still you didn't answer my question.

Forget leaders, IIS, the word taught. Forget everything!

It's very simple and not rocket science. What do you see wrong with the two concepts?


Very simple question. At least be humble in your ignorance.

BTW, I do have the answer to your question, but only in any debate, you answer a question, you get a question. I answered your first question, and you will get the answer when you answwer this question.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Other questions from No.3-12 are in queue.
The questions are very simple to read and answer n the choice is also given to make it easier. even a 10 year old Ismalie attending JK regularly can answer like a champion.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Other questions from No.3-12 are in queue.
The questions are very simple to read and answer n the choice is also given to make it easier. even a 10 year old Ismalie attending JK regularly can answer like a champion.
There's a saying "do it to others before they do it to you"

So you are avoiding my question by asking your own question. If you want to be respected, respect others. If you want answer, give answer (right or wrong).
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.

Now comes a simple question no 3.Only 9 more to go.

Do you accept and have absolute Faith/Imaan in the Kalima we recite at the end of our Tasbih?

A) Yes. B) No.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.

Now comes a simple question no 3.Only 9 more to go.

Do you accept and have absolute Faith/Imaan in the Kalima we recite at the end of our Tasbih?

A) Yes. B) No.
I very much believe you are mistaken. And wrongly interpret the Kalina. I know exactly what you are referring to.

Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen Ali-ullah

You are specifically referring to last part. Now let me ask you similar and simpler question and you will find your answer in it.

When a Muslim says:

La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.

What "Rasul-ullah" means?
What " Ali-ullah" means?

If you its not clear, then I will chime in.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Brother tret
ASAK

La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
It means
there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his Prophet
Rasool-ullah means Rasool of Allah

Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen
Pledge that Hz Ali is leader of momineen

Ali-ullah
Now what this means?

I do not want to derail your dialogue but please elaborate afterwords.

Salaam
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Post by a_27826 »

zznoor wrote:Brother tret
ASAK

La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
It means
there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his Prophet
Rasool-ullah means Rasool of Allah

Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen
Pledge that Hz Ali is leader of momineen

Ali-ullah
Now what this means?

I do not want to derail your dialogue but please elaborate afterwords.

Salaam

Allow me to answe, if you really dont know.

Third part of Kalima of Nizari Ismailis (Aliyun Ali-Ullah) differs from Twelvers (Aliyun Wali-Ullah).

Aliyun Ali-Ullah = Ali is Exalted of God

Aliyun Wali-Ullah = Ali is Friend of God
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Allow me to answe, if you really dont know.
I know various versions.
JAK
Where can I find third part in Quran?
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Post by a_27826 »

zznoor wrote:
Allow me to answe, if you really dont know.
I know various versions.
JAK
Where can I find third part in Quran?
Kilimas are just statements/declarations believed to be true for the believers.

The Shia kalima can be based on 004:059

"O believers, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you"

You can add few more statements if you like and believe in them eg "God is the Master of the Day of Judgement", "Jesus is the Spirit of God" and so on.

I hope Tret and Nuseri can get back on their discussion.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

I hope Tret and Nuseri can get back on their discussion.
Agreed, IA
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To tret:Ya Ali madad.
The question in 'What is wrong with resolution of the conference?

Firstly the circumstance is very very important when certain issue come from the leaders and and not as Farman.
during that period,Each had its own meaning of the the word GOD and Imam in communication to those outside of tariqa.

Imamat office then did not have professional PRO set up then.
In order as to communicate to various government.donors,media,Shariati with influence and other.
in various countries.
A standard definition of ACADEMIC IN NATURE.was intelligently drafted
by sharp legal mind then for one standard stereo type to concern people wishing to know the exact view of Ismailis toward Imam n God.
The same wok is taken over by Imamat Secretariat and IIS and the definition may gone futher changes.
It was NOT a direction of faith for Ismailis
only IMAM has the absolute right on that by virtue of Farmans

98% of Ismailis do not know about the resolution in the first place
and and they have Farmans ,Ginan n Qasidas for directing and inspiring thier faith.
The resolutions drafting was made by people like you n me may be elder
in age than us at that time
SO DOES OUR COLLECTIVE CONCEPT OF FOLLOWERS BECOME DIRECTION OF FAITH?
NO NO NO.
Concept meanS an idea or plan which has a shelf life,iT can die down if there are no takers

I would say not even peanuts a starters in a a lavish meal like Ginan n Qasida ,Which are Noor as said By our Imams.

I do not see any thing wrong in spelling or grammar of the definition/Concept.
I see it in right earnest (need of the hour then) by the leaders NOT IMAM
a resolution as to have standard PRO hand out to be used by all leaders
and volunteers who interact with Non Ismailis then for the cause of Imamat
I acknowledge and accept the resolutions as a good academic study material and a guideline for us when we tackle Non Ismaili diplomatically.

I appreciate that your academic search has bought to light this forgotten
resolutions.
If I would have in the team of drafting committee I may have tweaked
it little more in a refined diplomatic manner.
tret
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Post by tret »

I appreciate your POV and reply. Surely enough, context and circumstances are important when a political statement is made, by public figures and it must be really given careful thoughts. I also understand how you are analysing this. But, I believe, if we study doctrine of Ismailies and the school of thoughts of Ismailies, way before this resolution (during the Fatimid, the work of great Dai's and Pir's, who's work is now being published and are made available to Jama'at), I don't see anything off about the two concepts in question. Personally, and according to my belief, I honestly don't see anything off (or wrong) with the two concepts. I am not sure if this resolution was addressed exclusively to volunteers and/or ismailie leaders. Even if it was addressed to leaders, then it makes leaders responsible to pass these information to the Jama'at.

You said, that:
SO DOES OUR COLLECTIVE CONCEPT OF FOLLOWERS BECOME DIRECTION OF FAITH?
NO NO NO.
Concept meanS an idea or plan which has a shelf life,iT can die down if there are no takers
I would say not even peanuts a starters in a a lavish meal like Ginan n Qasida ,Which are Noor as said By our Imams.
Even if this was put together by leaders and approved by MHI, I really believe it's aligned with Ismailie doctrine and theology. And that's why I did pose the question, if according to you it's not correct, please do let us know how and why?

I believe, that if we know something, it is our duty and moral responsibility to let others know. Then it's upto the observer, whether to take it, or leave it. So, I am simply asking your stand, if anything is wrong.

At the end of the day, I certainly believe that even within our faith, we have difference of opinion on various topics, simply because we have a very rich and diverse Jama'at, and I really believe that's our strenght. I certainly respect everyone's view and belief, even if that is different than mine. Definitly, I don't expect everyone to agree with what I believe, but I certainly, want to learn from what others know.


and I assume, you have got the answer to your last question about our Shahada? Please if not, I can as well chime in.
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Post by nuseri »

To tret: Ya Ali Madad.

Question no 4.

Do you absolutely believe,follow and have Faith/Imaan on the Farman of the Imams?

A) Yes B) No.

Still awaiting answer to question NO 2 and 3.

There is one member an intellectual,If you see his postings of last 3 years He had a hardline Tariqati stand and even mocked at some Farmans.

As I observe closely the same member has a conviction of Haqiqati from last 6 months now as I seem to understand from his posting.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:
Do you absolutely believe,follow and have Faith/Imaan on the Farman of the Imams?

A) Yes B) No.
A)
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Tret:Ya Ali madad.

You still have not given the answer for question no 2 and 3.
with the selection choice of A or B. from that.
after that other 5-12 will follow.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To Tret:Ya Ali madad.

You still have not given the answer for question no 2 and 3.
with the selection choice of A or B. from that.
after that other 5-12 will follow.
I must have overlooked question 2 and 3.

What was it?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

Please see few postings earlier in this thread,you know it very well.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

Please see few postings earlier in this thread,you know it very well.
Yeah, it's A) and A)
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Post by nuseri »

To Admin;Ya Ali Madad.

I just did posting on this thread few hours back.

It was seeking answers from ALL to my question no '2' posted earlier by me meant for Tret.

What was the reason of deleting it?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.

At your level.Who is Aql E Kul/Universal Soul,Is it Imam of the time or Allah?

PLEASE NO EXPLANATIONS NEEDED.

Your concept make you mostly see in two's.It may be because you carry great set of two EyeBALLS.
tret
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Post by tret »

nuseri wrote:To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.

At your level.Who is Aql E Kul/Universal Soul,Is it Imam of the time or Allah?

PLEASE NO EXPLANATIONS NEEDED.

Your concept make you mostly see in two's.It may be because you carry great set of two EyeBALLS.

Short answer is no.

You actually mentioned 4 entity/concept in your question. According to my understanding God's Will (Command of God/Amr of God) is God's Essence, who's first creation is First Intellect (Aql-e-Kul). Then Universal Soul (Nafs-e-Kul) came to existence from It who's potentially perfect. To actualize itself (Nafs-e-Kul), It generates movements and causes the universe to exist.

These (Universal Intellect and Soul) are cosmic entities and have their proof on this physical world.

I understand Imam as locus of manifestation of Command of God, Who is perfect in actuality. The Imam is a very importent and necessary medium (wasilah) through which man can realize God.

At that level, the distinction can be as white and whiteness.
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Post by agakhani »

To nuseri,
There are too many "GADDARS" who consider themselve as an Ismailis but never goes in JK doesn"t pay the dasond and doesn"t believe H.Ali as a ....h they are really worst then bro tret " they are killing my imamat" this words are not mine but SMS told in his one farmans so leave bro Tret alone he atleast believes in imamat concept and as he mentiond that he goes in JK so he is lot better then those gaddar ismalis who kills imamat.
By the way I know what exactly you want uttered from Tret"s mouth but I do not thi.k he will give you clear cut answer.
Sorry for puting my two cents comments, if you do not like it then you are,free to keep asking him. But JE TAL MA TEL J NATHI EMA THI TEL KYATHI NIKLSHE?
tret
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Post by tret »

agakhani wrote:To nuseri,
There are too many "GADDARS" who consider themselve as an Ismailis but never goes in JK doesn"t pay the dasond and doesn"t believe H.Ali as a ....h they are really worst then bro tret " they are killing my imamat" this words are not mine but SMS told in his one farmans so leave bro Tret alone he atleast believes in imamat concept and as he mentiond that he goes in JK so he is lot better then those gaddar ismalis who kills imamat.
By the way I know what exactly you want uttered from Tret"s mouth but I do not thi.k he will give you clear cut answer.
Sorry for puting my two cents comments, if you do not like it then you are,free to keep asking him. But JE TAL MA TEL J NATHI EMA THI TEL KYATHI NIKLSHE?
If we start interpreting Farameen Mubarak this way, God forbid we'll end up like what Sunnies have with so many unauthentic hadis.

I am sure the Imam's Farmaan must have a context and audience. We can't take just a sentence from the Farmaan and use it in a different context, which will lose it's intended meaning in that particular context.

Imamat can not be killed. If you know Ismailie history, there have always been attempts to terminate Imamat, but every attempt has always failed, and will always fail. The Imamat mandate and institution will continue till the hows-e-kawsar.
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Post by Admin »

Obviously Imamat can not be killed. I read one farman by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says - during Imam Hussein's time, there was one Shimar but now there are a thousand and out of them hundred are sitting in front of me....
tret
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Post by tret »

Admin wrote:Obviously Imamat can not be killed. I read one farman by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says - during Imam Hussein's time, there was one Shimar but now there are a thousand and out of them hundred are sitting in front of me....
Such shimrs have always existed through out history of Islam and Ismaili. Who this would be applicable to then in this case?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.
In one of your early post,where original extract I presume was posted.
God existed and order was given.If these do not refer to Imam or Allah.
then this piece of garbage is mentioned as reference.

If God created everything,Whys this crap word of Aql/Nafs e Kul was coined
He does need to recreate himself. these word are not mentioned In Quran.

your shallow level of faith is making you to distort the truth and cunningly put up statements(you are precisely doing this from day

I got some info lately that out of approx 100000 Ismailis in India,Only 6-8 seniors of religious board know about 'Paris conference concept resolutions and 3 from those know it's actual content.It may not be there in their archives being 39 years old.
If this concept paper were at all circulated to see it as our cardinal Ismaili
doctrine by traitors of Imam,I am sure there would have been one more
sect or breakaway within us.
History tell the main reason for many Shia subsects was due very high level cleverness/cunningness and shallow faith persons who led the breakaway group.
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Post by Admin »

tret wrote:
Admin wrote:Obviously Imamat can not be killed. I read one farman by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says - during Imam Hussein's time, there was one Shimar but now there are a thousand and out of them hundred are sitting in front of me....
Such Shimars have always existed through out history of Islam and Ismaili. Who this would be applicable to then in this case?
I suppose this may be a symbol to say there are many Shimar and some are near the Imam.

There is also another Farman saying Yazid was better, he only wanted to kill the body of the Imam but today there are many who try to kill his Light.

And I think we can all understand that Farmans are the Light of Imam and many are trying to stop us from having access to the Light. These are the people who try to darken our lives.

SMS said those who stop you from reading my Farmans are the Din Ja Dushman - the enemies of our Faith.

I would say the same of people editing Farmans or people forging Imam's signature.
tret
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Post by tret »

Admin wrote:
tret wrote:
Admin wrote:Obviously Imamat can not be killed. I read one farman by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says - during Imam Hussein's time, there was one Shimar but now there are a thousand and out of them hundred are sitting in front of me....
Such Shimars have always existed through out history of Islam and Ismaili. Who this would be applicable to then in this case?
I suppose this may be a symbol to say there are many Shimar and some are near the Imam.

There is also another Farman saying Yazid was better, he only wanted to kill the body of the Imam but today there are many who try to kill his Light.

And I think we can all understand that Farmans are the Light of Imam and many are trying to stop us from having access to the Light. These are the people who try to darken our lives.

SMS said those who stop you from reading my Farmans are the Din Ja Dushman - the enemies of our Faith.

I would say the same of people editing Farmans or people forging Imam's signature.
Such people has always existed, and will continue to exist. But, the Jama'at is so blessed in today's day and age, that we receive the Farameen of the Imam first hand.

Even those group of people who tries to stop the Jamat to have access to the Farameen, and/or try to tamper the Farameen Mubarak, they will sooner or later fail miserably. Because to the Imam, everything is clear; even our motives.

But, I am not sure why this topic is relevant to what's being discussed in this thread?
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