I do not have to post what Immortal means!Sister Noor we are not kinder garden students so you have to show defination of certain words! To show your presence
After death
agakhani wrote:Let me ask you this question : are you believe in reincarnation? and I know the answer "no"
Second posting your above comment you are trying to say Ismaili pirs were wrong! Which is an insult of our pirs because all pirs said the same that H. Ali was dasmo naklanki avtar,
Sorry admin I do not agree with your menifestation or reincarnation theory, which is not logical to me.
Sister Noor we are not kinder garden students so you have to show defination of certain words! To show your presence.
Now you really sound like zznoor, from where I see. Please re-read what I stated! I said, the version of the interpretation that you are saying, is not what I believe. I said, reincarnation could also mean, elevating your soul into higher sphere. I know it's not what you want to hear. So, I am not sure why are we blaming zznoor, if we even can't tolerate each others POV, and we talk about tolerance and pluralism.
When Pirs and Dais preach, one has to reflect and try and find the (Tah'weel) batini meaning of the Tanzil. Please read my comments carefully, and don't draw false conclusion. I would never disrespect our great Dai's and Pir's. What I was suggesting, to reflect on what they preach. And try to find the esoteric meaning of their thoughts. Remember, in this physical world, everything is nothing, but sign and reflection of what's further and deeper away. It's the secret of life and one has to seek it through tayi'd and tah'weel, not just simply take the literal translation of the words.
It's kind of ironic, that you specifically asked Admin to make a comment, but when he did, aparently it wasn't what you wanted to hear.
I 100% agree with Admin that Imamat is not about reincarnation, it's manifestation.
First, we have to agree on the concept of reincarnation. Which we did, is to purify soul. In case of Imams, that argument is null and void. So, logicially speaking, it can't be true.
tret wrote: - Resurrection : Qiamah, or epoch of knowledge where the truth is revealed in a much wider and intense manner. Resurrection is not one day, it's a cycle. It can last as long as it takes for the men to come to realization. At 49th Imam (our present beloved MHI) the cycle of Resurrection has began, where the mandate of Imamat extends at a global scale. We witness today the activities of Imamati institutions where it impacts humans life for the betterment and qualities of life beyond Jama'at, at a global scale.
And this based on the following from Qur'an.
"And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87
Every seventh Imam is the Lord of Resurrection and in that era (dawr) further truth is revealed. 49th Imam is actually the start of the Resurrection cycle.
After six Major Prophets (Natiq) namely Adam, Noha, Abraham, Moses, Jesup and finally Muhammad, the seventh will be the Lord of Resurrection. Until then, the Imamat will continue.
If you pay attention in every seventh, there's a Resurrection where further truth is revealed.
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
This is a pending from earlier posting of yours in subject locked in earlier topic.
You stated what MHI approves( matter written by tom ,dick n harry) is 100% correct.
Forget MHI and follow tom,dick n Harry's presentation n concept papers.
assuming your stand
then
What MHI says at speech and gathering at large is 100% correct.
What MHI n earlier Imams is 100% correct and 100% true.
Absolute belief in the Farman is 100% Imaan.
This is a pending from earlier posting of yours in subject locked in earlier topic.
You stated what MHI approves( matter written by tom ,dick n harry) is 100% correct.
Forget MHI and follow tom,dick n Harry's presentation n concept papers.
assuming your stand
then
What MHI says at speech and gathering at large is 100% correct.
What MHI n earlier Imams is 100% correct and 100% true.
Absolute belief in the Farman is 100% Imaan.
Ya Ali Madad:
Just read some of the posts.
Is the Noor of Allah in Imamat lineage is the manifest Imam.
Is is not that Shah Karim has the same soul (Noor) of Hazrat ALI of earlier time,?Then by logic it is clear that he is the reincarnation of Hazrat Ali.
Reincarnation is a living person identified with the soul from past life/lives.
It then a greatest Miracle of Soul/Noor going foward in progeny In Imamat only while in normal person It is as directed by will of God upon birth
What Pir's( approved stuff) have written on Reincarnation is True
and Farman of Imam SMS stating he is 'Murtaza Ali.'
Read it as Manifest Of Noor for a person ,who may fell shy to say that MHI is none other than Hazrat Ali.( reincarnation).
If not then the whole concept of Imamat becomes null n void and also the Ayats stating of rebirth.relife ,life again n again said by our beloved
Ali+lah=Allah.
Just read some of the posts.
Is the Noor of Allah in Imamat lineage is the manifest Imam.
Is is not that Shah Karim has the same soul (Noor) of Hazrat ALI of earlier time,?Then by logic it is clear that he is the reincarnation of Hazrat Ali.
Reincarnation is a living person identified with the soul from past life/lives.
It then a greatest Miracle of Soul/Noor going foward in progeny In Imamat only while in normal person It is as directed by will of God upon birth
What Pir's( approved stuff) have written on Reincarnation is True
and Farman of Imam SMS stating he is 'Murtaza Ali.'
Read it as Manifest Of Noor for a person ,who may fell shy to say that MHI is none other than Hazrat Ali.( reincarnation).
If not then the whole concept of Imamat becomes null n void and also the Ayats stating of rebirth.relife ,life again n again said by our beloved
Ali+lah=Allah.
Now you really sound like zznoor, from where I see. Please re-read what I stated! I said, the version of the interpretation that you are saying, is not what I believe. I said, reincarnation could also mean, elevating your soul into higher sphere. I know it's not what you want to hear. So, I am not sure why are we blaming zznoor, if we even can't tolerate each others POV, and we talk about tolerance and pluralism.
Sorry, I can not accept your above interpretation and theory on reincarnation to me its just not looks logical for some reason, so let me accept and believes what I wrote earlier and what our great pirs has told about reincarnation and manifestation in ginans.[/b] rather then giving your theory I would say please read ginans first and then after give your philosophy.
About pluralism?
I do not know which pluralism are you talking about? it seems to me
that you are trying to ignore our ginans and e our pirs and give more important to Dais?? is this pluralism are you talking about?
about my pluralism please read what I wrote earlier almost 4 years ago, let me give you exact date 18th September 2011:-
"
Quote:
- Are Momnas are superior then Khojas?
No, Let me answer your last question first, all Murids of Hazar Imam are equals and same, the status in the eyes of Imam for his different Murids like Momana, Khoja, Shamsi, Gupti, Afghan, Badkshani, Russian, Chinese and Iranian Ismailis are same and equal, Mowla always treat them as his equivalence Murids, no one is superior or better for him, you can find many farmans of MSM and current Imam regarding this, so there is no question arising for superiority for any murids and if someone consider themselves as a superior then that is totally wrong.
This is a solid proof of my own pluralism.
Well, you do not have to become puppet of Admin!I 100% agree with Admin that Imamat is not about reincarnation, it's manifestation.
First, we have to agree on the concept of reincarnation. Which we did, is to purify soul. In case of Imams, that argument is null and void. So, logicially speaking, it can't be true.
I asked him a question and if he has guts then he will give me an answer.
Forget about manifestation just for now untill Admin gives more clarification but your logical interpretation on reincarnation is totally wrong that is for sure. period
Well done brother, beautifully explained in just few words!What Pir's( approved stuff) have written on Reincarnation is True
and Farman of Imam SMS stating he is 'Murtaza Ali.'
This applaud is not for because your thinking match with mine but for being decent person to put the truth- when every one in this thread pulling hard differently and trying to prove that they are right!! and others are wrong!
To Agakhani;Ya Ali Madad.
I appreciate your faith in Ginans.
These are approved material of traditions and not absolute of Tariqa.
If you take the words of Ginan as absolute,you may be at times find yourself falling short of explaining or convincing the absolute truth.
If you just bank on word of Pir's over the Farman then you may be putting full stop to your intellectual search.
I personally take the word of Pir's with some reservations as observed by me.
Take the words of the Farman of an Imam as 101% correct n true.
that's Tariqa,Imaan and not traditions.
If I feel I am personally blessed with what I posses today is that is see,observe and feel MHI as ALI n ALI only and nothing less and if time n circumstances demand I do acknowledge him as Karim Aga Khan.
Get carried away to the heavens by words of Imam ONLY and not solely from the approved words of mr XYZ.
I appreciate your faith in Ginans.
These are approved material of traditions and not absolute of Tariqa.
If you take the words of Ginan as absolute,you may be at times find yourself falling short of explaining or convincing the absolute truth.
If you just bank on word of Pir's over the Farman then you may be putting full stop to your intellectual search.
I personally take the word of Pir's with some reservations as observed by me.
Take the words of the Farman of an Imam as 101% correct n true.
that's Tariqa,Imaan and not traditions.
If I feel I am personally blessed with what I posses today is that is see,observe and feel MHI as ALI n ALI only and nothing less and if time n circumstances demand I do acknowledge him as Karim Aga Khan.
Get carried away to the heavens by words of Imam ONLY and not solely from the approved words of mr XYZ.
agakhani wrote:Well, you do not have to become puppet of Admin!I 100% agree with Admin that Imamat is not about reincarnation, it's manifestation.
First, we have to agree on the concept of reincarnation. Which we did, is to purify soul. In case of Imams, that argument is null and void. So, logicially speaking, it can't be true.
I asked him a question and if he has guts then he will give me an answer.
Forget about manifestation just for now untill Admin gives more clarification but your logical interpretation on reincarnation is totally wrong that is for sure. period
So, according to you, if one agrees with someone else, he's automatically a puppet? Wow! mindblowing analysis and observation.agakhani wrote: Well, you do not have to become puppet of Admin!
Let me reverse the question to you. Had Admin agreed with you, who would be puppet of who, then?
Maybe it is wrong, may be it's not! But, that's pluralism is all about, isn't it? Everyone's welcome to belief what they want! If one believes that God reincarnates into Cow, then that's his belif. Or if he believes God reincarnates into shah rukh khan, then that's his belief!agakhani wrote: I asked him a question and if he has guts then he will give me an answer.
Forget about manifestation just for now untill Admin gives more clarification but your logical interpretation on reincarnation is totally wrong that is for sure. period
You belief, Imams are reincarnation of previous Imams, that's your belief, and I respect that. I don't not agree with that, and I simply express my opinion and belief. You wish to ignor or explore.
Speaking of logical. Let's see if your logical analysis makes sence.agakhani wrote: Sorry, I can not accept your above interpretation and theory on reincarnation to me its just not looks logical for some reason,
You said reincarnation is to purify soul! Meaning, that if one commits sin, then he comes back to life to get purified, and you always give example of 100 lives, 18000 lives, so on and so forth. So, why would one comes back to life 100 times? the reason -- and you believ too -- is to purify your soul of the sins you commit!
The above is your belief about reincarnation.
Now is this logical according to you, when you say Imams are reincarnation of previous Imams: Then the concept of reincarnation doesn't make sence, for simple fact that Imams are infalible and don't commit sin, neither do Imams need to purify their soul!
This is where the concept of reincarnation doesn't imply to Imams. It's rather manifestation.
I know you [and some other members] are not too keen to learn about these topics, but I can only encourage.
At the end, it's all up to you what you belief. It's always best to beg to differ, than to quarrel, is what I believe.
I asked you a question, but either you didn't understand or you simply choose to ignore. Here is it again.agakhani wrote: so let me accept and believes what I wrote earlier and what our great pirs has told about reincarnation and manifestation in ginans.[/b] rather then giving your theory I would say please read ginans first and then after give your philosophy.
which category of ginans?
- category A?
- category B?
- category C?
Please try to figure out which ginans belong to which category, first! Then when you make a reference to ginan, also mention which category it belongs to.
I think you have trouble understanding plain english!!! refusing a concept is different, then interpreting it differently!!!agakhani wrote: About pluralism?
I do not know which pluralism are you talking about? it seems to me
that you are trying to ignore our ginans and e our pirs and give more important to Dais?? is this pluralism are you talking about?
it's like zznoor says, ismailies don't pray 5 times, but the fact is we do pray and it may not be the same prayer as she knows. Our Du'a is the prayer and rememberance of Allah. But, yet she says no, you have to do it x5 times, in specific order and so on... Now, you say the same thing! I am only correct, if I accept your version of interpretation in this regard. Well, no! I have my version. Now, you can't say I ignore what Pir's and Dai's teachings!!
And yet you categorise as Qasida lovers/Ginan haters/etc../etc..agakhani wrote: Quote:
- Are Momnas are superior then Khojas?
No, Let me answer your last question first, all Murids of Hazar Imam are equals and same, the status in the eyes of Imam for his different Murids like Momana, Khoja, Shamsi, Gupti, Afghan, Badkshani, Russian, Chinese and Iranian Ismailis are same and equal, Mowla always treat them as his equivalence Murids, no one is superior or better for him, you can find many farmans of MSM and current Imam regarding this, so there is no question arising for superiority for any murids and if someone consider themselves as a superior then that is totally wrong.
According to my understanding, this is not correct!nuseri wrote:Is is not that Shah Karim has the same soul (Noor) of Hazrat ALI of earlier time,?Then by logic it is clear that he is the reincarnation of Hazrat Ali.
Noor of Imamat is not equal to Soul [individual soul].
I believe each Imam has their own individual soul and that's why each Imam accomplishes the mandate of Imamat in their own style and manner. But, it's the same mandate of Imamat. That's why we can't say, Imams are reincarnation of previous Imam.
This is not even my indirect speech! The underlined, is your added flavour of spice, based on your personal judgement, influenced by hate, anger and frustration! Besides, if you choose not ignore, you still can find your answer in that same locked thread! But, since you asked, I will repeat one more time, and if yet you choose to ignore, then I really can't help you.nuseri wrote: You stated what MHI approves( matter written by tom ,dick n harry) is 100% correct.
In matters of faith, MHI and MHI alone, enjoys the full authority in the interpretation of faith. I don't know about you, but to me [and most all ismailies], the concept of God and Imam, IS MATTERS OF FAITH. And no tom/dick/harry has [or should have] any authority whatsoever, to put anykind of concept anywhere for interpretation of faith!!!
This shows your lack of faith, and questioning Maula's authority, from where I see.
This was the answer to your question:
Now, you failed to answer a couple of my questions in that locked thread, how convinient.
Question:
1. What's so wrong with what has been approved by MHI, regarding concept of God and Imam? Did you try to reflect and see what it really means?
2. What's Allah (God) according to you? [Please spare us the saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
3. What's Imam according to you? [Please spare us by saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
To tret ;Ya Ali Madad.
Your conviction of each Imam is individual soul.
This the MOST immature and of worst than a shallow Tariqati statement seen by me.
YOU ARE UNFIT TO BE AN ISMAILI.
Shia tariqa is living on the same Noor/Soul in each passing Imam.
Again the word SAME SAME SAME.
The persona and appearance biologically id distinct and differant but NOT the Noor/soul.
Ask any alwaez or mukhi.
why you sat ya ali ya hazar imam in tasbih.
Are they two different souls or one Noor/soul only.
ask this question to other Ismaili members of the Forum.
Being clever is expression of your utter shallow conviction of MHI.
and the concept of Noor of Imamat.
Your screwed up status advantage is also been taken by a Shariati.
As form conviction of Imam is Ali and he same as Allah.
please read all my posts from begining ,if not then closely read word word farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah and farmans of Imam SMS recorded
ones and in written words by asking Agakhani/ShamsB/Admin to email
you if you give them your email address.
Your posting is trying to make Haqiqati's n others to FALL down to lowest
level of tariqat to line of thinking.
Your conviction of each Imam is individual soul.
This the MOST immature and of worst than a shallow Tariqati statement seen by me.
YOU ARE UNFIT TO BE AN ISMAILI.
Shia tariqa is living on the same Noor/Soul in each passing Imam.
Again the word SAME SAME SAME.
The persona and appearance biologically id distinct and differant but NOT the Noor/soul.
Ask any alwaez or mukhi.
why you sat ya ali ya hazar imam in tasbih.
Are they two different souls or one Noor/soul only.
ask this question to other Ismaili members of the Forum.
Being clever is expression of your utter shallow conviction of MHI.
and the concept of Noor of Imamat.
Your screwed up status advantage is also been taken by a Shariati.
As form conviction of Imam is Ali and he same as Allah.
please read all my posts from begining ,if not then closely read word word farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah and farmans of Imam SMS recorded
ones and in written words by asking Agakhani/ShamsB/Admin to email
you if you give them your email address.
Your posting is trying to make Haqiqati's n others to FALL down to lowest
level of tariqat to line of thinking.
In a debate, it's simple! You ask a question, and you get an answer!! You are asked a question, and you give an answer!nuseri wrote:To tret ;Ya Ali Madad.
Your conviction of each Imam is individual soul.
This the MOST immature and of worst than a shallow Tariqati statement seen by me.
YOU ARE UNFIT TO BE AN ISMAILI.
Shia tariqa is living on the same Noor/Soul in each passing Imam.
Again the word SAME SAME SAME.
The persona and appearance biologically id distinct and differant but NOT the Noor/soul.
Ask any alwaez or mukhi.
why you sat ya ali ya hazar imam in tasbih.
Are they two different souls or one Noor/soul only.
ask this question to other Ismaili members of the Forum.
Being clever is expression of your utter shallow conviction of MHI.
and the concept of Noor of Imamat.
Your screwed up status advantage is also been taken by a Shariati.
As form conviction of Imam is Ali and he same as Allah.
please read all my posts from begining ,if not then closely read word word farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah and farmans of Imam SMS recorded
ones and in written words by asking Agakhani/ShamsB/Admin to email
you if you give them your email address.
Your posting is trying to make Haqiqati's n others to FALL down to lowest
level of tariqat to line of thinking.
Until, you don't give an answer, then you don't get to ask any question.
If you don't give an answer to a question you are asked, it's assumed, you don't have [or better yet, you don't know] any answer.
Forget who's unfit to be an ismailie, or who's so fit to be an ismailie. I am pretty sure, it's not yours or my call. Let's leave it to MHI to judge. At this stage, yours is to provide a logical and intellectual answer to my questions [which you have failed multiple times over], and mine, is to provide your with an intellectual and logical answer, which I did multiple times over, and yet you failed to digest them.
So, I am not sure what else do you want?
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
To me Imam is the guide of time whom we call as MHI in plain vanilla meaning.
Now as an Ismaili ,I firmly believe the Farman of Imams as an absolute ordinance on me.
In already stated the Farman of Imam SMS that is the same Murtaza ALI
and confirms being the same Noor/soul.
and in an earlier Farman of 47 th Imam Aga Ali Shah he has clearly mentioned his status of Ali Allah in simple language and stating Allah
(word n name of Allah came from ALI).
So 'what is Imam to me'?
Confirming my absolute belief in above two farmans and many many others
one linking Hazar Imam with Ali
and Status ALI Allah said in other Farman.
There is NO if,but,or rocket science logic and suppose stories to challenge n condemn it.by me .
So MHI of an Ismaili is Moula Ali and who is Allah himself on Earth.
This is plain belief n conviction.
Belief being conviction which cannot be seen and at time proved physically can be argued by many to see Imam as a plain normal looking
behaving human being on Earth.
They are also right at there own level.
If you do not trust the Farman ,our wordings in our Dua n tasbish.
It means U lack trust in words Of Imam, Dua ,Tasbih.
You are cursing yourself to shallow belief by default by being born an Ismaile and as worse as an devil or any orthodox Shariati of your non belief.
Even moderate Shariati consider him as Sayyed " An ordinary soul from the lineage of Prophet".Little more respect given to ant normal muslim."
Too much of stand against the Farman of Imam for the sake of debate is like calling for curse in your next phase of Life.
Even downgrade from borderline suspicious Tariqati status to Shariati in next life From Shariat to Tariqat could be few hundred Life cycles of Ignorance n disbelief.
I also some time play a role of devil's advocate in my consultancy service
to manipulate.tear apart and distort the facts of a case for professional reasons even at time I may be not on the right side because the company seeking consultancy was not on the right side.I stay helpless n service them with all my Intellectual ability
To me Imam is the guide of time whom we call as MHI in plain vanilla meaning.
Now as an Ismaili ,I firmly believe the Farman of Imams as an absolute ordinance on me.
In already stated the Farman of Imam SMS that is the same Murtaza ALI
and confirms being the same Noor/soul.
and in an earlier Farman of 47 th Imam Aga Ali Shah he has clearly mentioned his status of Ali Allah in simple language and stating Allah
(word n name of Allah came from ALI).
So 'what is Imam to me'?
Confirming my absolute belief in above two farmans and many many others
one linking Hazar Imam with Ali
and Status ALI Allah said in other Farman.
There is NO if,but,or rocket science logic and suppose stories to challenge n condemn it.by me .
So MHI of an Ismaili is Moula Ali and who is Allah himself on Earth.
This is plain belief n conviction.
Belief being conviction which cannot be seen and at time proved physically can be argued by many to see Imam as a plain normal looking
behaving human being on Earth.
They are also right at there own level.
If you do not trust the Farman ,our wordings in our Dua n tasbish.
It means U lack trust in words Of Imam, Dua ,Tasbih.
You are cursing yourself to shallow belief by default by being born an Ismaile and as worse as an devil or any orthodox Shariati of your non belief.
Even moderate Shariati consider him as Sayyed " An ordinary soul from the lineage of Prophet".Little more respect given to ant normal muslim."
Too much of stand against the Farman of Imam for the sake of debate is like calling for curse in your next phase of Life.
Even downgrade from borderline suspicious Tariqati status to Shariati in next life From Shariat to Tariqat could be few hundred Life cycles of Ignorance n disbelief.
I also some time play a role of devil's advocate in my consultancy service
to manipulate.tear apart and distort the facts of a case for professional reasons even at time I may be not on the right side because the company seeking consultancy was not on the right side.I stay helpless n service them with all my Intellectual ability
nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
To me Imam is the guide of time whom we call as MHI in plain vanilla meaning.
Now as an Ismaili ,I firmly believe the Farman of Imams as an absolute ordinance on me.
In already stated the Farman of Imam SMS that is the same Murtaza ALI
and confirms being the same Noor/soul.
and in an earlier Farman of 47 th Imam Aga Ali Shah he has clearly mentioned his status of Ali Allah in simple language and stating Allah
(word n name of Allah came from ALI).
So 'what is Imam to me'?
Confirming my absolute belief in above two farmans and many many others
one linking Hazar Imam with Ali
and Status ALI Allah said in other Farman.
There is NO if,but,or rocket science logic and suppose stories to challenge n condemn it.by me .
So MHI of an Ismaili is Moula Ali and who is Allah himself on Earth.
This is plain belief n conviction.
Belief being conviction which cannot be seen and at time proved physically can be argued by many to see Imam as a plain normal looking
behaving human being on Earth.
They are also right at there own level.
If you do not trust the Farman ,our wordings in our Dua n tasbish.
It means U lack trust in words Of Imam, Dua ,Tasbih.
You are cursing yourself to shallow belief by default by being born an Ismaile and as worse as an devil or any orthodox Shariati of your non belief.
Even moderate Shariati consider him as Sayyed " An ordinary soul from the lineage of Prophet".Little more respect given to ant normal muslim."
Too much of stand against the Farman of Imam for the sake of debate is like calling for curse in your next phase of Life.
Even downgrade from borderline suspicious Tariqati status to Shariati in next life From Shariat to Tariqat could be few hundred Life cycles of Ignorance n disbelief.
I also some time play a role of devil's advocate in my consultancy service
to manipulate.tear apart and distort the facts of a case for professional reasons even at time I may be not on the right side because the company seeking consultancy was not on the right side.I stay helpless n service them with all my Intellectual ability
The answer should be very simple. A two liner or a paragraph for each one of my question would suffice. Please write your answers in below space. Then we can proceed.
Question:
1. What's so wrong with what has been approved by MHI, regarding concept of God and Imam? Did you try to reflect and see what it really means?
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2. What's Allah (God) according to you? [Please spare us the saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3. What's Imam according to you? [Please spare us by saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The questions in the above post do not provide for the fact that Mowlana Hazar Imam's Farmans can be interpreted differently by 2 different persons so they may agree that Imam is never wrong but still interpret the guidance according o their own beliefs and upbringing. This is why the Imam talks of Pluralism even in matter of faith.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
Admin wrote:The questions in the above post do not provide for the fact that Mowlana Hazar Imam's Farmans can be interpreted differently by 2 different persons so they may agree that Imam is never wrong but still interpret the guidance according o their own beliefs and upbringing. This is why the Imam talks of Pluralism even in matter of faith.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
What I really want to know -- for my own benifit and for everyone else's benifit for that matter -- is to findout from other participants, what's so not correct about the resolution that was approved by MHI, regarding concept of God and Imam, that he's so worked up? I am putting it here for the sake of argument.
@nuresi - Please tell me what's so wrong with these two concept?
Concept of God
Concept of Imamthe concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.
In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].
Concepts that are explained in Farameen mubarak are directly subject to observer's level of understanding and preception. For murids (Mustajeb), the way to be inspired is through tah'leem (Teaching) of Farameen mubarak through Muhalem (Dai/Pir). Where as for Dai/Pir/Hujjat, the inspiration is through taiyyid(Divin inspiration) from the Imam. Unless, we don't seek proper knowledge (tah'leem), inspiration can not come easily.
The other thing I want to mention is the most participant use (believe) that Soul and Nur of Imamat are one and the same for the Imams.
My understanding is that Soul (individual Soul of the Imams) and the devine Nur of Imamat are totally two different entities.
When Imams say, I am the same level/status of Imam Ali or we are from one Nur; I don't believe the Imams mean we are one person. But rather, Imams are from the Same Nur of Imamat or rather manifestation of the Nur of Imamat.
To me,
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
Please kindly show me, where have I not concurred with Farameen Mubarak? As an Ismaili, I really don't think there's a need for me to tell you (or for you to tell me) the importance of Farameen. Please try and understand the question first, then draw a conclusion.agakhani wrote:To me,
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
To tret;Ya Ali Madad.
You have asked question which may contain many alphabets,I will surely answer the concept papers n not conviction papers not coming from lips of the Imam.
Two line line to second n third question.
2. God is what I feel of my soul within me and Identified as MHI( as noor n person both) as a part of baatin Didar blessed upon me at the age of 14.
3. Imam to me at tariqat physical eyes level guider of time embedded with Noor of Allah.Beyond that is one conviction or Imaan.
as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
You have asked question which may contain many alphabets,I will surely answer the concept papers n not conviction papers not coming from lips of the Imam.
Two line line to second n third question.
2. God is what I feel of my soul within me and Identified as MHI( as noor n person both) as a part of baatin Didar blessed upon me at the age of 14.
3. Imam to me at tariqat physical eyes level guider of time embedded with Noor of Allah.Beyond that is one conviction or Imaan.
as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
nuseri wrote: as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
Thank you for replying to my two questions.
About my question number 1, let's put aside all those factors about leaders belief status, circumstances, etc, etc,. I asked you, specifically what do you see wrong with those concepts? Is there anything wrong with those two concepts? If yes, what is it? It should be really simple, and we don't need to answer 10 other questions, just to answer this one simple question.
Everyone's welcome to participate and give their POV, but let's start with you. Once you answered this, then I can gladly move on with your questions, whether these concepts invalidates previous Farameen or Du'a Mubarak or Tasbih (I can tell you that it does not invalidate, more details to come, after your reply to my question #1)...
So you are now relying on academic info? I recall correctly, you had stated that academic knowledge is useless and one shouldn't bother with it.nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
As I am awaiting academic info from scholars.There are now 12 set of questions requiring just one alphabet answer, I will post 4 at a time for peaceful sleep for you.
Besides, I really don't see why "other scholars" answer should have an impact on what think is correct? That tells me that you don't know the answer and rely on someone else?
What I concluded from your replies and how you reflect on it is the following.
You are actually implying 2 things here:
1. You imply that what was approved my MHI, about the concept of God and Imam, was actually crafted by someone else (other than MHI Himself).
2. You also imply that what was approved by MHI about the concept of God and Imam is not correct.
I challenged you on both of your assertions as follow.
In response to your assumption #1: I said "in matters of Faith, MHI alone enjoys full authority in interpretation of faith"
In response to you assumption #2: I asked you a very specific question, which you still failed to say anything, WHAT DO YOU WRONG WITH THE CONCEPT OF GOD AND IMAM, that was approved by MHI.
My friend, if you don't have any answers that's totally fine. No one knows everything. It's better to decently accept rather giving inaccurate information.
Btw, the reason why I am curious to know your respond is for my own benefit alone; no other intention is meant.
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
sounds like complex question fallacynuseri wrote: please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
Curiosity is rooted in human nature. Without it, one would lose the chance of motivation and inspiration. And btw, curiosity doesn't kill donkies and cats; it's the lack (absence) of intellect that does! Intellect can be nurished by receiving tah'leem (Teaching) from Muhaleem-e-Sadiq (Dai's / Pir's), who's work you repeatedly refused in your previous replies!
Now, about your question: It is as if you ask a christian if he believes in Jesus. If you did ask such a question from a christian, you'd probably get a slap accross the face. lol, you know what I mean.
But, I am respectful to my spiritual brothers, so of course answer is A).
So, my assumptions were correct about you! That a) you believe that what was approved by MHI was crafted by someone else other than MHI. and b) it's simply not the reality.
Now, you have absolutly no answer to tell me what is wrong with the concept of Imam and God that was approved!
You also contradict/violate the very belief and principal of Ismailie, and the very important artical of Ismailie constitution, which is the following.
In matters of faith, MHI and MHI alone, enjoys the full authority in the interpretation of faith!.
I very much believe that concept of God and Imam is one of the very important element of Shia faith, and apart from MHI, no one else should have any authority to put any kind of description.
My good friend, from where I see, you don't have any framework of belief and absolutly no idea about ismailie doctrine, theology and school of thoughts.
I wish you well though.
Ya Ali madad.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.
During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.
80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.
39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.
In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.
Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.
after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.
Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.
This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.
There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.
If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.
for forced approval I have explained before
An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it
" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."
This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.
THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.
Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.
As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.
HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.
Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.
During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.
80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.
39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.
In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.
Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.
after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.
Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.
This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.
There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.
If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.
for forced approval I have explained before
An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it
" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."
This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.
THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.
Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.
As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.
HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.
Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.