Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni

[kmaherali]

Can you post Tawil and Tafsir of Quran as per Ginan
Let us start with sura al Fateha

The Ginan HAK TU(N) PAAK TU BAADSHAAH BY PEER SHAMS can be considered as a tafseer of sura al-Fateha. The Ginan with the meaning follows.

hak tu(n) paak tu(n) baadshaah maher baan bee Ya Ali tu(n)hi tu...1

You are the Just, You are the Sinless,
Oh Ali the Gracious Heavenly King, You are indeed all.


rab tu(n) rahemaan tu(n) ya ali aval akhar kazi tu(n)hi tu........2

You are the Sustainer, You are the Merciful,
Oh Ali, You are the First and the Last Judge, You are indeed all.


te upaayaa te nipaayaa sirjann haar ya ali tu(n)hi tu.............3

You are the one who originated and You are the one who created,
Oh Ali you the Creator, You are indeed all.


jal thal mull mandal haar naa ya ali hukam teraa bi tu(n)hi tu....4

In the water and on the land, You have laid the roots (foundations, of creation),
Oh Ali everything therein and on is at Your command, You are indeed all.


teri dostee me boliyaa peer shamsh me bandaa teraa bi tu(n)hi tu..5

In Your frienship says Peer Shamsh: "I am also Your created being",
You are indeed all.

[samramzan]

I think it was on the Zanzibaar 1st visit farman where SMS said every tafseer of Quran is present in Ginans.

Fact remains
None of Devine persons who claim to be "Bolta Quran" has recited Quran as revealed to Prophet. Nor they have published so called authentic tafseer. We have many tafseers by Sunni, Shia, Ahmediya scholars but none from Ismaili Imamas.

Zznoor, In today's world I think we do not see such need to publish guidance in Arabic language, as it was the requirement of that time. However Imam SMS said He's also sent arabic version to Iranian Ismailies as well.

Today we might have the complete quran in the form of Ginan, we can not surely say as Only Moula bapa knows eirither is complete or not but i can say there's nothing we need is missing till now for us. Moula is guiding us time to time as Bolta Quran and again i m saying Quan is not only a text wirtten in arabic language but its the guidance which is coming through the light of Prophet Mohommed. It was coming continuously through our peers in written and today its still coming through Hazir Imam orally.

How can they believe in "Bolta Quran" when they have never heard him recite complete Quran?

I don't understand why are u taking Quran as just a published copy and Why the means hv become end

I heared in Abu Ali's Waaz that in Quran, the litrature was according to arab people, the history and stories in Quran was all belonging to them. If Allah and Hazrat Mohammed would hv explained the story belonging to Hindustan or China or any other unknown part of the world, Arab people could never understand.

Today we have all guidance in our own language, the stories and all in it, belongs to us. We can not exactly match the individual Quranic verses with our Ginans and farmans but final outcome is same.

It doesn't mean that Quran is less valued for us, It has the immense value as it conains the words from Allah, but if you are talking about the missing content and to understanding Quran for today's world interpretation, explore Ginans and farmans.

Majority of Muslims never Accepted concept of Imamat after the death of Prophet. They do not accept it today and will not accept tomorrow.
Reason given by them
No explicit pronouncement from Prophet.
No explicit Aya in Quran on Imamat.

This is completely a different debate, lets start the new thread for it if admin agrees else lot of stuff can be found in shia forums

and lets forget about the words of Gadir-e-Khom, It was the last stroke by Prophet mohammed, my request is to start with the ahadith for Hazrat Ali before starting the debate

[samramzan]

Can you support this with authentic quote?

useful link
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 747AAOAKME

or you can google it, Quran Compliation hisotry or Quran compilation by hazrat Ali

[nuseri]

TO:ZZnoor

Before I expand the 3 points of my last postings.
Please answer the below ,it can b replied in one word each.

1.Are you an Ismaili?

2.If yes,then do you love,admire, respect and obey our beloved Hazar Imam?.

[zznoor]

TO:ZZnoor

Before I expand the 3 points of my last postings.
Please answer the below ,it can b replied in one word each.

1.Are you an Ismaili?

2.If yes,then do you love,admire, respect and obey our beloved Hazar Imam?.

1. I am Muslim, I do not belong to any sects
Quran in present format is my guide.

2 I admire and respect Hazar Imam for his leadership of Nizari Ismaili Shia sect, his world wide philanthropy and his diplomatic skills.
He is one of best Muslim leader.

[zznoor]

Can you post Tawil and Tafsir of Quran as per Ginan
Let us start with sura al Fateha

The Ginan HAK TU(N) PAAK TU BAADSHAAH BY PEER SHAMS can be considered as a tafseer of sura al-Fateha. The Ginan with the meaning follows.

This Ginan cannot be tafseer of Siraj al Fateha.
Hz Ali is not Allah the subprime lord of Muslims.

[nuseri]

To: Zznoor

On your debate with kmaherali.(I do not know the exact topic ,but do know his rock solid blessed Imaan)

so.you are not an Ismaili,but disliker of Ismaili faith and practices
as for your reply to Kmaherali on above matter.

The Pirs ,who were inspired sufi and also all convinced Ismailis are absoulutly certain that ALLAH (ali+la) is ALI.
Firstly muslim have not understood the word 'Allah' and going on talking big about it.
they do know ANY Baatin concept nor experienced the supernatural.
all their rubbish theory n info is out of reading of Zahiri material
with near zero concept of Baatin and understanding of one single ayaat
in esoteric essence.
the Pir of Ismailis beautifully presented it to us to lead us to the Imam
of the time.
We have a very beautiful n rich DUA for recital ,which is short sweet n rewarding for all Ismailis .
Shariatis who believe in all fancy Islamic word n medieval pracitices are better identified with Beard ,Burqa and a blast somewhere.

you seem be a Shia 12er feeling good intelligently to be among Ismaili debaters as you may have realized other sites are full of morons and fatwas.

This website is very generous to non Ismailis abusers also.

I feel this Ismaili heritage site is a blessed castle to be kept away from Devils n witches demeaning our glorious faith,traditions n practices.

Our Imams may be seen offering Prayer as Human being.
In ABSOLUTE REALITY he is ONE who
is receiving and blessing the prayers of all human beings on this planet
earth.

ISHQ ALI PE HAI ABAADI TUMARI
MAAN ALI PE HAI SALAMATI TUMARI
SHAQUE ALI PE HAI KASOTI TUMARI
NAFRAT ALI PE HAI AAFAT TUMARI.

Evaluate yourself where you stand on it.and is s the right forum for you to be or try your antiques on other sites

[agakhani]

agakhani wrote:
Quote:
Can you support this with authentic quote?


Off course! how many quotes you need? I have many sources which support my above quotation which sources would you prefer Sunnis and Shia?


Both please

Sorry, it takes little time to find all the references below about Hazarat Umar rejected Hazarat Ali's compiled Quran and Quran has been changed:-

1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.


When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) sent the message that,

"I have taken a promise that I will not step out of my house, except for Salat : till the time I collect the Quran"
the people remained silent for a few days.

When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,

"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "

Umar rejected this by saying,

"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."

On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home. 1 Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.

above Reference is taken from ;-1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186. in addition you can find same references in these books too.
2, Al-Intkaan part -1 - page#62 written by well known Sunny Scholar Allama Jalaluddin Siyuti
3, Tabakat Ibne Samad part -2 page # 338
4, Tarikh-E- Kholfa PAGE # 130 Delhi Publication
5, Sawaik -E- Mohareka Page @ 73 (Urdu)
6, Shekh-E- Sakifah : written by Janab Ali Akabar Shah.
7, Had Assarik Page # 144
8, Al Kholfa Bajwabe Al-Murtaza Part # 2 Page # 296/297
9, Isteaab Fi Mareftussaaha Part # 2 Page # 555
10, Nahjul Balagah written by Hazarat Ali

[agakhani]

useful link
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 747AAOAKME

or you can google it, Quran Compliation hisotry or Quran compilation by hazrat Ali

Thanks bro, but why are you not quoting any references which you have been ever read by your self? goggling or quoting "yahoo answers" or Wikipedia OR LISTENING SOME ONE ELSE, are not solid proof to prove yourself, therefore you need to read books written by either Sunnis or shiats scholars and authors.
The names of those books and authors are given by me in my above post, please read it it is in English, Urdu, Arabic and Gujarati languages, but wait if you still need more references and if you promises me to read all those books, then please let me know, I will give you more references from Sunnis/Shias scholars which backing that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) had his own compiled Quran which Quran had been rejected by H. Omar. That is it period, and I wish "ZZNOOR" and "NUSERI" also reads this post. I am sorry, I don't have time to spend hours and hours to find these and other references and nobody utilize it!! after all I am not a missionary or AL-waeaz, I am a student as I proclaimed many times earlier.

[shiraz.virani]

1. I am Muslim, I do not belong to any sects
Quran in present format is my guide.

Zznoor, with all due respect, as far as I know, there is no such thing called muslim, period !!!........Who taught you how to perform namaz ??...If you try to connect the links one after the another, like for ex: Its your father who taught you, he inturn was taught from his father, who inturn followed his father uptil you reach Imam Mallik or some Imam who actually invented that school of thought.

The salat that you pray has to come from some place right ??.....We all are muslim zznoor but we follow different set of rules [school] like you have malliki school[Imam Mallik Ibn Anas] , hanifi school[ Imam Abu Hanifa] and so on

The problem zznoor is that even those so called Imams never told their students to follow them, Infact all of them said and I quote

"This is my opinion. If anyone brings a better explanation, I will accept that one." - Abu Hanifa

"If the Prophet's words become evident to a person, it is not correct to leave aside the sunna in favour of anybody's word" - Imam Shafi

Even the hadith zznoor, you would never ever hear rasool[saw] talking directly...so and so would hear it from somewhere that rasool[saw] said this...well who knows what rasool[saw] meant and what was actually written ??

Lets just stop here because I dont wanna go into further detail...I just want you to know that the namaz that you perform is nowhere mentioned in holy quran...what allah[swt] orders us is that we should recite any amount of verses that glorifies him ....this whole standing up, ruku and what not is all man made [In every faith]....God does not want you to perform martial arts, hez more interested in your niyat...unfortunately we ismailis forget that.

You can call yourself a muslimah, you have a right to do so...Its just something that I wanted to share with you and FYI all the so called Imams that I mentioned @ above were the students of the greatest Imam of shia's ...IMAM JAFAR AL-SADIQ who was the power house of knowledge just like his father

[kmaherali]

This Ginan cannot be tafseer of Siraj al Fateha.
Hz Ali is not Allah the subprime lord of Muslims.

Tafseer is always an interpretation. There can be many tafseers depending upon one's interpretation of faith. Quran was revealed in parables so there can be many interpretations.

[samramzan]

Thanks bro, but why are you not quoting any references which you have been ever read by your self? goggling or quoting "yahoo answers" or Wikipedia OR LISTENING SOME ONE ELSE, are not solid proof to prove yourself, therefore you need to read books written by either Sunnis or shiats scholars and authors.
The names of those books and authors are given by me in my above post, please read it it is in English, Urdu, Arabic and Gujarati languages

Yes bro right but as u know its very time consuming to gather all such references so just thought why not to use technology.. but yes its very important to read by ourself and not only go with other's research.. anyways thanks for your ref. I’ll surely explore it n plz also refer me some authentic ahadiths book

[agakhani]

The Ginan HAK TU(N) PAAK TU BAADSHAAH BY PEER SHAMS can be considered as a tafseer of sura al-Fateha.

Indeed brother Karim, you are absolutely right, there were and there are controversies about the status of Hazarat Ali (s.a.), some peoples consider him as a human being or as a 4th caliphs, but were and there are still some peoples who you consider Hazarat Ali (s.a.) above the human being or as a caliph off course, I am from that who believes that H. Ali had and still have in our current Imam a divine power, has a "NOOR" of Allahtallah.I considered him and consider Ismailis current imam as a " HOLDER OF A NOOR" means he is everything for me and I consider him as a " ..... " as Nuseri did more than 1400 years ago.

[nuseri]

To Agakhani:
Ya ali madad
Momanbhai chum che?
What post do u want me to read?
Stating too much n trying to find from old writings is taxing at times.
WE have as our Imam a Bolti Koran,regardless what others say.
our Imaan stays put.
All material and actions at Zahiri level is like a candle light which has near zero value against sunlight (our Imam n Farmans).
I personally do not wish to see any types of candle lights debates leading
to opinion of futile value.
I personally see more value and reasoning in Farmans over Ginans and Qasidas.

[agakhani]

Brother Nuseri,
There are many many interesting posts in this website, you can choose any interesting subjects no matter it is written by me or any other scholars.
FYI But I should salute you for your loves towards Hazarat Ali (s.a.) and our old dua also say clearly that : "ALI SAHI ALLAH".

[agakhani]

I’ll surely explore it n plz also refer me some authentic ahadiths book

Thanks Samramzam,
There are many Hadith books available in market but I will suggest you to read Mishkat-ul-Masabih (4 volumes) it is available in English and other languages too this book is very authentic and you wouldn't find any unauthentic hadiths in it.
Besides above book you can also read
1.Sahih Bukhari, collected by Imam Bukhari (d. 870), includes 7275 ahadith
2.Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875), includes 9200 ahadith
3.Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
4.Sunan Abu Dawood, collected by Abu Dawood (d. 888)
5.Jami al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
6.Sunan ibn Majah, collected by Ibn Majah (d. 887)

But many Shia scholars do not prefer above Hadith books because there are many hadiths, specially quoted by "Abu Hurera" and " Ummul Mominin Hazarat Aayesha" doesn't seems authentic.

[shiraz.virani]

Brother Nuseri,
There are many many interesting posts in this website, you can choose any interesting subjects no matter it is written by me or any other scholars.
FYI But I should salute you for your loves towards Hazarat Ali (s.a.) and our old dua also say clearly that : "ALI SAHI ALLAH".

This idea of IDOL WORSHIPPING is what makes the newer generation run away from our rich traditions.

Never ever in the lifetime of any imams have their claimed to be god head....they are the representatives of allah[swt]...not god themselves.

H.Ali[as] himself used to pray to allah[swt]....He was targeted and poisoned while he was praying so I dont see why you would go back to IDOL worshipping

Infact it was H.Ali[as] along with rasool[saw] who destroyed all the idols that were there in holy kaaba [which supposedly included the sculptures of H.Ibrahim[as]]...what was the whole point of doing that ??...That was done so that the jaahils[ fire worshippers/ Idol worshippers/ animal worshippers and what not] should worship one god...THE SUBLIME

Even our constitution, if you read says

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.

[Admin]

There is no Idole worshiping in Ismailism. There has never been.

There are only people who misunderstand the fact that the Imam is the bearer of the Noor of Allah and Allah is Noor Himself.

Ismaili do bow to the Light of Allah. Not every tom dick and harry is able to see the Light of Allah. Some of them only see "shirk".

The prolem is not with those who bow to the Light of Allah, the problem is people looking and not understanding what is happening.

When the wise man points to the moon with his finger, the idiots looks at the finger.

[tret]

3. Do Ismailis outside the Indian subcontinent have scriptures besides the Ginans?

no , throughout the world ismailis recite ginan, yes there might be the difference in laguage but we dont have any other scriptures apart from quran whose actual meaning is given in ginans

Maulana Hazir Imam has mentioned in one of His interview on NDTV (Walk the Talk with The Aga Khan), what's the definition of an educated person in 21st century? And it's that one should have the knowledge of the world.

It's interesting that our own ismailie brother doesn't know of another ismailie brother living elsewhere than indian sub-continent!

There are many Imams who ruled in Persia and there are works of Imams in Persian scripture. Many great Dai's Pir's and even Imams have books/works in Persian language and scripture. Qasida's are prime examples of work of Pir's, Dai's and Imams. Please do some research about the diversity of our rich tariqa, before giving inaccurate information.

[a_27826]

3. Do Ismailis outside the Indian subcontinent have scriptures besides the Ginans?

no , throughout the world ismailis recite ginan, yes there might be the difference in laguage but we dont have any other scriptures apart from quran whose actual meaning is given in ginans

Maulana Hazir Imam has mentioned in one of His interview on NDTV (Walk the Talk with The Aga Khan), what's the definition of an educated person in 21st century? And it's that one should have the knowledge of the world.

It's interesting that our own ismailie brother doesn't know of another ismailie brother living elsewhere than indian sub-continent!

There are many Imams who ruled in Persia and there are works of Imams in Persian scripture. Many great Dai's Pir's and even Imams have books/works in Persian language and scripture. Qasida's are prime examples of work of Pir's, Dai's and Imams. Please do some research about the diversity of our rich tariqa, before giving inaccurate information.

Not only that but also i think majority of Nizari Ismailis living outside indian subcontinent.

that is majority of the Nizari Ismailis are not Khojas.

correct me if i am wrong in my thinking.

[shiraz.virani]

tret wrote :

Maulana Hazir Imam has mentioned in one of His interview on NDTV (Walk the Talk with The Aga Khan), what's the definition of an educated person in 21st century? And it's that one should have the knowledge of the world.

It's interesting that our own ismailie brother doesn't know of another ismailie brother living elsewhere than indian sub-continent!

There are many Imams who ruled in Persia and there are works of Imams in Persian scripture. Many great Dai's Pir's and even Imams have books/works in Persian language and scripture. Qasida's are prime examples of work of Pir's, Dai's and Imams. Please do some research about the diversity of our rich tariqa, before giving inaccurate information.

Please read the whole content in which I wrote that and that too almost a year ago....Glad you finally woke up ,lol..What I was trying to let that brother who asked me this question know is that ginans are the vital part of our tariqah.

For example : If I go to Afghanistan their language and qasidas might be different than what we recite in India but the concept remains the same.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

On a lighter note....Please don't take out your frustration on the wrong person

[tret]

tret wrote :

Maulana Hazir Imam has mentioned in one of His interview on NDTV (Walk the Talk with The Aga Khan), what's the definition of an educated person in 21st century? And it's that one should have the knowledge of the world.

It's interesting that our own ismailie brother doesn't know of another ismailie brother living elsewhere than indian sub-continent!

There are many Imams who ruled in Persia and there are works of Imams in Persian scripture. Many great Dai's Pir's and even Imams have books/works in Persian language and scripture. Qasida's are prime examples of work of Pir's, Dai's and Imams. Please do some research about the diversity of our rich tariqa, before giving inaccurate information.

Please read the whole content in which I wrote that and that too almost a year ago....Glad you finally woke up ,lol..What I was trying to let that brother who asked me this question know is that ginans are the vital part of our tariqah.

For example : If I go to Afghanistan their language and qasidas might be different than what we recite in India but the concept remains the same.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

On a lighter note....Please don't take out your frustration on the wrong person

It was meant to be just a correction, and not frustration.

Even, then if we look at the questions, it's "scriptures besides Ginan", then I would say Qasida is comparable to Ginan, but we have loads of work done by our Pir's and Dai's and even Imams, are they in this context considered as scripture?

[shiraz.virani]

tret wrote :

Even, then if we look at the questions, it's "scriptures besides Ginan", then I would say Qasida is comparable to Ginan, but we have loads of work done by our Pir's and Dai's and even Imams, are they in this context considered as scripture?

I dunno whether you can call it a scripture but you are right they are and should be considered as inspiration...May be I did not express myself enough [ and that too almost a year ago] and hence the correction

[zznoor]

But many Shia scholars do not prefer above Hadith books because there are many hadiths, specially quoted by "Abu Hurera" and " Ummul Mominin Hazarat Aayesha" doesn't seems authentic.

" Ummul Mominin Hazarat Aayesha" doesn't seems authentic"

Well only witness to Al Kisa hadith was Aisha RA

Here is Hadith

A narration attributed to 'A'isha reports:
“ that God's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: God only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)" ”
Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Sahih Muslim

This Hadith is one of foundation of Shiism.
How convient to accept Hadith when it serves purpose and reject when it will hurt Shia point.!!

[tret]

But many Shia scholars do not prefer above Hadith books because there are many hadiths, specially quoted by "Abu Hurera" and " Ummul Mominin Hazarat Aayesha" doesn't seems authentic.

" Ummul Mominin Hazarat Aayesha" doesn't seems authentic"

Well only witness to Al Kisa hadith was Aisha RA

Here is Hadith

A narration attributed to 'A'isha reports:
“ that God's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: God only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)" ”
Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Sahih Muslim

This Hadith is one of foundation of Shiism.
How convient to accept Hadith when it serves purpose and reject when it will hurt Shia point.!!

I respect bebe Aisha, because she was Prophet's wife. But, if she started a battle against Maula Ali, who was rightfully chosen by the Prophet himself, then once may start questioning her motive? beloved Prophet himself said on many occasions that ALI and I are from the same noor. Whoever is I am the master, ALI is also their master. So, when our beloved Prophet gives so much importance to Maula ALI, then whoever is against ALI's will is in essence against our beloved Prophet's will! You draw the conclusion!

[agakhani]

Not only that but also i think majority of Nizari Ismailis living outside indian subcontinent.

Nope, brother you are wrong! the major Ismaili population is still Indian subcontinent if you count some countries which were once counted in Soviet Russia. Ismailis never had any official population calculation around the world;so we have to guess but as per the many waez of well known missionary; the majority Ismailis are still in Indian subcontinent.

[agakhani]

Even, then if we look at the questions, it's "scriptures besides Ginan", then I would say Qasida is comparable to Ginan,

Sorry, to say brother Tret! but you can not compare Qasidas with Ginans at any level. period. I have posted my arguments many times before so I do not want start it all over here again but I will suggest you just go back little bit and read it again.

[agakhani]

I respect bebe Aisha, because she was Prophet's wife. But, if she started a battle against Maula Ali, who was rightfully chosen by the Prophet himself, then once may start questioning her motive? beloved Prophet himself said on many occasions that ALI and I are from the same noor. Whoever is I am the master, ALI is also their master. So, when our beloved Prophet gives so much importance to Maula ALI, then whoever is against ALI's will is in essence against our beloved Prophet's

I totally agree with you on your above comments, thanks to put it here which refresh my memory that Ayesha was fought a battle 'JANG E JAMAL' against H. Ali (s.a.)
BTW:- Do you or any other readers in this forum knows; how she was killed terribly by Muawia? why he killed her? Sunny scholars always remain silent about her death if you ask them but..... let it go may be next time

[tret]

Even, then if we look at the questions, it's "scriptures besides Ginan", then I would say Qasida is comparable to Ginan,

Sorry, to say brother Tret! but you can not compare Qasidas with Ginans at any level. period. I have posted my arguments many times before so I do not want start it all over here again but I will suggest you just go back little bit and read it again.

I couldn't find your argument. Please enlighten me! I do certainly know Qasida and the meaning. However, I don't understand Gujrati to understand the meaning of Ginans. So, please tell us what are the differences between Qasida and Ginan and why not comparable?

[Admin]

Most of the Qasidas are part of what we call devotional litterature. The equivalens in the Indian Subcontinent would be kawalis and Geets of Mowla ji Shaan

The Qasidas such as those written by our Imams, are considered not devotional litterature but sacred litterature.

The Ginans written by the"Satadhari" Pirs (Hujjat ul-Imam) appointed by the Imam also are part of the sacred litterature.

There are no khoja Pirs. Over the years, the Imam have either kept the Light of Piratan with themselves or pointed to us the "Satadhari" Pirs which were all either Persians, Arabs or Turkish. They were all from Imam's descendants.

This of course this is a diversion so lets come back to the thread of this discussion.