Is Quran compilation complete?

[zznoor]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

-------------

What you wrote and which I quoted above shows that 40 pages were not enough for you to understand that what you are calling Quran and what Others are calling Quran is not the same. You are confused between what is Quran of Allah and what is Mushaf of Usman.

Ismailis have always respected the Quran of Allah, they have always considered it a Perfect Book to be followed to the end of time. A Book that is for all the People of the Book.

[agakhani]

Not only 40 pages but if we write 40 trillions pages in same topic i.e. quran is complete or not then I think we will not find satisfactory answes or decision which make both party happy, some one will still believe that quran is complete while other hand some peoples will believe that quran is incomplete.
This kind discussion is century old dizcussion and big ulemas,big quranic scholars,big muffasirs, big muhaddis and quranic translators still can not find that whether quran is complete or not ?. then who the heck we are who is looking for the solution. I agree with admin late decision to close this thread on Sunday.

[agakhani]

Tret,
I do not have any objection with all quranic ayas, but I have objection on some contradictory and out dated ayas, I collected more then 100 these kind ayas which reveal different messages but it is too late because I already have withdrawn my self from this debate so there is no queztion for that
The quranic ayas which I recites in my daily prayers does not contain any information wnich I can object means these five ayas not objectory and these ayas are choosen by our 48th imam so I have to obey his farmans.
Let me give you a. example suppose you have infectios in your tow, doctor advise that if you cut off infected tow then it is ok!now let me ask you this? would you just give permission to cut off just tow or entirs leg? Why are you not give permission to cut off entire leg? why toe is not part of your leg? Same way I do not believe some ayas which are infected with viruses, that does not mean I totally ignore quran.

[tret]

Tret,
I do not have any objection with all quranic ayas, but I have objection on some contradictory and out dated ayas, I collected more then 100 these kind ayas which reveal different messages but it is too late because I already have withdrawn my self from this debate so there is no queztion for that
The quranic ayas which I recites in my daily prayers does not contain any information wnich I can object means these five ayas not objectory and these ayas are choosen by our 48th imam so I have to obey his farmans.
Let me give you a. example suppose you have infectios in your tow, doctor advise that if you cut off infected tow then it is ok!now let me ask you this? would you just give permission to cut off just tow or entirs leg? Why are you not give permission to cut off entire leg? why toe is not part of your leg? Same way I do not believe some ayas which are infected with viruses, that does not mean I totally ignore quran.

Beautifully said. I agree with you on that. But, you need to see a 'doctor' to tell you if your toe is really infected. You may thing your toe is infected, but it could be a temporary pain. Only a 'doctor' can tell you if your toe need to be cut off.

In this case that you have come up with some ~100 ayas, that you think are contradictory, have you seen a 'doctor' to tell you if you need to discard them? who have you asked about these ~100 ayas? Has our MHI said to discard these ayas?

So, here's what my take is I respect Qura'an to the fullest, and don't doubt it. I obey the Farameen of MHI and follow it. It's out MHI's responsibility to do the tafsir of Qura'an -- depending on time and period -- and it will come to us as form of Farameen. It's not your job to find mistakes of Qura'an. I advise you leave it to MHI as He knows it best. If there are verses in Qura'an that are truly contradictory to our tariqa and Islam in general, I truly believe that MHI would properly interpret them and would guide us through.

Your mistake is that you try to do what MHI is supposed to do. You maybe correct or maybe not, but I don't think it's your call (or anyone else's call) to conclude that Qura'an is wrong/false/outdated or what not.

[ShamsB]

Can anybody quote a single Aya given to us by Imam Ali thru Imam Karim?

If not then why this myth of Bolta Quran?

Yes we can
Please do. A Aya which is not part of so called Uthman Quran but missing or omitted Aya.

Millions of them - go read the Farmans and the Ginans.
I have also read Farmans posted on this site
problem is..you don't want to read them...and you're not actually here to learn but rather shove your shairat down our throats.
I am only asking proof from the mouth of Imams. A deleted word, additional word or Aya not included in Quran.
Why shove something down our throat that you, yourself are unable to digest?
I am not trying to shove down mainstream Islam down anybody's throat. I am defending Quran.
First accept the IMAM as the IMAM
Yes you have living Imam. He is nice leader. He is not my religious leader nor of rest of Muslims.

or as your Quran calls him

IMAM-E-MUBEEN
That is Ismaili version. We believe it is Quran
then go from there...

We are kafiroon....leave us alone...read and follow your own quran.

"to you yours, and to me mine".

Shams

Appeal to Ismaili brothers

Please stop this. Respect that mainstream Muslim's belief that Quran is sacrosanct, eternal and unedited holy book. So far no solid proof has been furnished of missing or edited part of Quran. I am talking about from the mouth of Imams. Mere mention of doubt is not proof. Farmans has no meaning for non Ismailis.

Ginan and other Ismaili religious material are sacrosanct to Khoja Ismaili and I respect that.

Please remember this 40+ pages will remain as a proof that many of you lack faith in Quran in the book form.

Salaam

So your true motive comes out. We have no problems with what other muslims believe.
We just don't like you (ZZNOOR) shoving your garbage down our throats.
You want to believe that the Quran is complete - please go for it.
And if you choose to do that - than FOLLOW IT COMPLETELY - NOT SELECTIVELY as you have been doing. (These 40+ pages prove that).

Ofcourse these 40+ pages prove that we don't have faith in the QURAN AS IS - because the SUNNI CALIPHS ALTERED IT TO BOLSTER THEIR POLITICAL CLAIMS.

FOR AN ISMAILI - THE IMAM'S WORD IS SACROSANCT

I don't care if you believe it or follow it..that is not for me to judge or decide.

I WILL FOLLOW IT. IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMED SHAH CLEARLY STATED THE QURAN AS IS - IS NOT COMPLETE AND IT HAS BEEN ALTERED.

We have presented AUTHENTICATED HISTORICAL PROOF TO YOU FROM THE SUNNI PERSPECTIVE

but you have your head up your ass.

Once again - we are kafiroon - please leave us alone

THE QURAN - which you claim to follow 100% says - "to you is yours, to me is mine"

Please leave us alone.

Oh - and if you haven't noticed - this is ismaili.net
not sunni.net.

Shams

[zznoor]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

-------------

What you wrote and which I quoted above shows that 40 pages were not enough for you to understand that what you are calling Quran and what Others are calling Quran is not the same. You are confused between what is Quran of Allah and what is Mushaf of Usman.

Ismailis have always respected the Quran of Allah, they have always considered it a Perfect Book to be followed to the end of time. A Book that is for all the People of the Book.

this is not my post. Somebody is fooling around with web site. Admin take notice

[agakhani]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

And if some one tells same thing about "Usman Quran, a miss guided book; an altered book; a tampered book; an incomplete book then what would you say??

[agakhani]

. I obey the Farameen of MHI and follow it. It's out MHI's responsibility to do the tafsir of Qura'an -- depending on time and period -- and it will come to us as form of Farameen

Same way I like to do, but lets think you have question about Surat ul Nisa or any other ayas from Quran which you can not understand properly and you want answer very quickly, you may first talk with Mukhi Kamadia saheban and they will refer some waezin and waezin will refer you to ask Tariqa Board, now suppose if they do not have satisfactory answer then what? What would you do ? can you call Hazar Imam? off course not, can you write a letter to him? yes, you can! but do you think Hazar Imam( busy person) will answer your letter!!?? brother do not expect that you will receive answer of your question, and if you lucky enough that Tariqa Board forwarded your letter to MHI( which happen little) you won't receive answer soon As a ex- council members in two countries I can tell you this your local Tariqa Borad will never forward your letter to MHI!! I am telling you the truth I have witnessed that many time then whom do you call for your query? you have to rely on your own answer brother. you have to translate that ayas by your own, it may be right, it may be wrong! who knows? that is what I am doing for my self.
By the way I never denied that we do not have to seek advise from "Rasikun fil Ilm" our Hazar Imam. and in Kalam -e- Mubin Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah( s.a.) has told that soon or latter one Ismaili Imam will be bring the 10 missing paras, Imam Ali Shah (s.a.) also told same that in quran 10 paras are still missing and one of day one Imam will be introduce it again. now believe this or not it is up to you and if you want the farman # date of this farmans and place of this farmans please e-mail me.

[zznoor]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

And if some one tells same thing about "Usman Quran, a miss guided book; an altered book; a tampered book; an incomplete book then what would you say??

Agakhani Bhai
Ya Allah Madad

Admin has massacred my post of Posted on Oct 2013 12:08 am .

My quote "For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period." Premised said what you said. Like you and your fellow Ismilies I said that Quran in book form is defective book.

Comments underneath this sentence is Admin's opinion.

Salaam

[zznoor]

Premised said what you said. Like you and your fellow Ismilies I said that Quran in book form is defective book.

Correction

Preciously said what you said. Like you and your fellow Ismilies I said that Quran in book form is defective book.

[zznoor]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

And if some one tells same thing about "Usman Quran, a miss guided book; an altered book; a tampered book; an incomplete book then what would you say??

If I had opportunity to interview your MHI, I will ask him this

Your followers believe this

Usman Quran, a miss guided book; an altered book; a tampered book; an incomplete book then what would you say??

And see what he says.

My guess is he will pussyfoot around it. It needs guts to express your inner feeling.
In the meanwhile
Let him publish Farman on Ismaili Salah/Namaaz., he did promise it few years back.

[agakhani]

If I had opportunity to interview your MHI, I will ask him this

Our Hazar Imam does not have time to listen BS (FALTU BAATE) from ex- Ismaili who converted in Sunnism like you!.when, at THIS time peoples around the world try to convert themselves in one and only one 'SHIRATAN MUSTAKIM SECT "ISMAILI" and look at you you left this true path 'SHAME TO YOU' don't you think it is foolish step from you?, think this sister it is not too late, please come back and kick out Sunnism and I promise you will not regret for that.

Meanwhile give your self a favor!, ask the same question to your mentor, or your Ustad or any Mullah Molvis, i.e. tell them that not only Ismailis but all Shiates sects telling "Usman Quran" is incomplete, tampered, altered quran, let me know what they reply? I bet you our Hazar Imam will not answer what your Mullah, Molwi will give you, cursing Shiates sects, GALIYA DENGE SISTER GALIYA.

[tret]

. I obey the Farameen of MHI and follow it. It's out MHI's responsibility to do the tafsir of Qura'an -- depending on time and period -- and it will come to us as form of Farameen

Same way I like to do, but lets think you have question about Surat ul Nisa or any other ayas from Quran which you can not understand properly and you want answer very quickly, you may first talk with Mukhi Kamadia saheban and they will refer some waezin and waezin will refer you to ask Tariqa Board, now suppose if they do not have satisfactory answer then what? What would you do ? can you call Hazar Imam? off course not, can you write a letter to him? yes, you can! but do you think Hazar Imam( busy person) will answer your letter!!?? brother do not expect that you will receive answer of your question, and if you lucky enough that Tariqa Board forwarded your letter to MHI( which happen little) you won't receive answer soon As a ex- council members in two countries I can tell you this your local Tariqa Borad will never forward your letter to MHI!! I am telling you the truth I have witnessed that many time then whom do you call for your query? you have to rely on your own answer brother. you have to translate that ayas by your own, it may be right, it may be wrong! who knows? that is what I am doing for my self.
By the way I never denied that we do not have to seek advise from "Rasikun fil Ilm" our Hazar Imam. and in Kalam -e- Mubin Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah( s.a.) has told that soon or latter one Ismaili Imam will be bring the 10 missing paras, Imam Ali Shah (s.a.) also told same that in quran 10 paras are still missing and one of day one Imam will be introduce it again. now believe this or not it is up to you and if you want the farman # date of this farmans and place of this farmans please e-mail me.

Okay, I see your point. But, my hole argument was, whether to conclude or decide which ayas are tampered and which are missing, is not really yours or my place to say about Qura'an. Qura'an may be tampered, but we have Ayas in our Dua'a, from the same Qura'an. Our MHI is the best who can decide which one to follow which one not, in the form of Farameen. So, I don't think there's any daily issues that have not been addressed by Farameen of MHI (or for that matter Farameen of previous Imams).

Since the whole debate is around beating ones wife, I think everyone would agree, that God would never order men to beat their wife. I know the God I believe in, would never order that.

[tret]

ZZNOOR said
A scholarly end of debate. For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period.

And if some one tells same thing about "Usman Quran, a miss guided book; an altered book; a tampered book; an incomplete book then what would you say??

Agakhani Bhai
Ya Allah Madad

Admin has massacred my post of Posted on Oct 2013 12:08 am .

My quote "For Ismaili Quran is a defective book, period." Premised said what you said. Like you and your fellow Ismilies I said that Quran in book form is defective book.

Comments underneath this sentence is Admin's opinion.

Salaam

Even if you get the opportunity to ask this question, if you are not open minded, it wouldn't do you any good. Let me ask you a question of my own. Please be honest and instead of answering this to me, try to answer it to yourself.


When someone was giving bayat to become a Muslim, during the era of our beloved Profit Mohammad (PBUH), one would go to him and take His Hand for bayat to become a Muslim and the Profit would accept his bayat. So, now a days if one (a non muslim) wants to take bayat and become muslim who's hand should he take? Is it that man's (non-muslim's) fault that he was not born during the era of the Profit Mohammad? That hand (the Profit's hand) must be present today. Nasir-e-Kusraw spent most of his life searching for that hand, and he eventually found that hand. Try to search for that hand.

[a_27826]

Since the whole debate is around beating ones wife, I think everyone would agree, that God would never order men to beat their wife. I know the God I believe in, would never order that.

It always amazes me that people think what God can and cannot do.

God in Quran has not ordered husbands to beat their wives around.

In 004:034, God orders the husband to correct his wife by punishing IF she is perverted.

[tret]

Since the whole debate is around beating ones wife, I think everyone would agree, that God would never order men to beat their wife. I know the God I believe in, would never order that.

It always amazes me that people think what God can and cannot do.

God in Quran has not ordered husbands to beat their wives around.

In 004:034, God orders the husband to correct his wife by punishing IF she is perverted.

Well, that clarification should be directed to agakhani, right? since he was the one bringing up this very topic.

[ShamsB]

Since the whole debate is around beating ones wife, I think everyone would agree, that God would never order men to beat their wife. I know the God I believe in, would never order that.

It always amazes me that people think what God can and cannot do.

God in Quran has not ordered husbands to beat their wives around.

In 004:034, God orders the husband to correct his wife by punishing IF she is perverted.

once again it's all about interpretation of the word punishment.

Our interpretations of the quran and our faith are all very individualistic and to me that is perfectly fine - we can not be prescriptive in how one should follow the faith. For after all isn't it the Quran that says "there is no compulsion in faith"

And once again - we're digressing from the topic in regards to the completeness of the Quran to interpretation of the Quran.

Maybe a new thread needs to be opened just to discuss the translations and interpretations of the Quran.

Shams

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
I was off for 2 week.I still need to give my opinion on Surrogacy being Zina posted by AgaKhani earlier.
Firstly some memeber posted all name of saintly ladies n goddess having a child without wedlock or intercourse.
It look divine for them,If a lady for a noble cause n also to meet her need offers a womb .How can it be called Zina?
Humanities science is a collective wisdom of a moral n civilized society.
It is not considered illegal or imoral in many countries n today's time.
By the way the ginan verses posted in English was a planted one n not from the book mentioned,so that evidence stand Null n void in legal parlance.
Many years back.Ismaili hospital had started a Big IVF center in Mumbai,I do no know if surrogacy was offered or not?
Hazar imam has said that there is no conflict Islam/Faith n Science.
So the word ZIna used by Agakhani was used in narrow frame of mind,but making fair point in context to Quran.
A small one word question to Agakhani.
Which can be a greater Zina ( haram).
a) A child temporary in womb of a religious lady legally by surogaccy.
OR
b)Income of religious person,his household grocery purchased from sale
of cigarrates,liqour,lottery ticket,porno magzines( inside sale of gas station).
that person stomach filled with above income.


I personally feel Surrogacy is understanding n practising of Allah's creation.or a statement from MHI will be most needed.

AgaKhani your intent of question was good but your wordings were improper due to excessive reading by you.

DIMAG KE SAATH SAATH THODA DIL SE BHI LIKHO.

[a_27826]

Since the whole debate is around beating ones wife, I think everyone would agree, that God would never order men to beat their wife. I know the God I believe in, would never order that.

It always amazes me that people think what God can and cannot do.

God in Quran has not ordered husbands to beat their wives around.

In 004:034, God orders the husband to correct his wife by punishing IF she is perverted.

once again it's all about interpretation of the word punishment.

Our interpretations of the quran and our faith are all very individualistic and to me that is perfectly fine - we can not be prescriptive in how one should follow the faith. For after all isn't it the Quran that says "there is no compulsion in faith"

And once again - we're digressing from the topic in regards to the completeness of the Quran to interpretation of the Quran.

Maybe a new thread needs to be opened just to discuss the translations and interpretations of the Quran.

Shams

004:034 fits perfectly well with the current topic of completeness of Quran because it has been used to claim that the Words in it cannot be from God.

[zznoor]

tret

Even if you get the opportunity to ask this question, if you are not open minded, it wouldn't do you any good. Let me ask you a question of my own. Please be honest and instead of answering this to me, try to answer it to yourself.

When someone was giving bayat to become a Muslim, during the era of our beloved Profit Mohammad (PBUH), one would go to him and take His Hand for bayat to become a Muslim and the Profit would accept his bayat. So, now a days if one (a non muslim) wants to take bayat and become muslim who's hand should he take? Is it that man's (non-muslim's) fault that he was not born during the era of the Profit Mohammad? That hand (the Profit's hand) must be present today. Nasir-e-Kusraw spent most of his life searching for that hand, and he eventually found that hand. Try to search for that hand.

Brother you are confusing Shahada and Bahaya

If non Muslim wants to revert he takes Shahada
Shahada is defined as follows:

"The first of the Five Pillars of Islam is the shahada. Shahada is the Muslim profession of faith, expressing the two simple, fundamental beliefs that make one a Muslim:

La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah.

There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God.
Sincere recitation of this confession of faith before of two Muslims is the sole requirement for those who wish to join the Muslim community. It represents acceptance not only of Allah and his prophet, but of the entirety of Islam.

As one of the Pillars, the shahada must be recited correctly aloud with full understanding and internal assent at least once in every Muslim's lifetime.

The shahada is also recited in the muzzein's call to prayer, included in the salat (daily ritual prayer) and incorporated in Sufi contemplative prayer. It is also recited in the moments before death.

From the shahada are derived the other fundamental doctrines of Islam: angels, the Qur'an and the Bible, the prophets, and the Day of Judgment."

Bayah is defined as follows:

Bay'ah (literally to sell):

in Islamic terminology, is an oath of allegiance to a leader. It is known to have been practiced by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Bay'ah is sometimes taken under a written pact given on behalf of the subjects by leading members of the tribe with the understanding that as long as the leader abides by certain requirements towards his people, they are to maintain their allegiance to him. Bay'ah is still practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Sudan. In Morocco, Bay'ah is one of the foundations of the Monarchy. In many Islamic traditions, the meaning of bay'ah is to sell ones self to a spiritual master, pir or sheikh in exchange for the spiritual knowledge which he gives.

There are Ahadith that Prophet SAW took Bayah from many women. He never held their hand in the process.

[agakhani]

So the word ZIna used by Agakhani was used in narrow frame of mind,but making fair point in context to Quran.

The word 'ZINA' is not only used by me but if you read others literature specially written by strict Sunny/Shia Scholars then you will find same word,"ZINA' for the surrogacy pregnancy.

so please stop to tell " narrow frame of mind" not for me, but the sack of that scholars who are expert in religious writing, it is insult for them.

AgaKhani your intent of question was good but your wordings were improper due to excessive reading by you.

Thanks for your comments! but don't you think you are teaching a doctorate degree holder how to write properly!! who used to write in magazines and earlier wrote a book!!!?

[zznoor]

[Shakir 4:34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:34]
In verse 228 of al-Baqarah Allah says that women also have rights as men have but men are a degree above women. In this verse it is again stated that men are the guardians of women as He has made the male sex excel over the female sex. This is the will of an all-wise and almighty Lord.

The equality before law should not be confused with the equality of the complex of subjective and original qualities. Even the messengers and prophets of Allah are not equal in status due to their innate and endowed essence. "We have made some of these messengers to excel others", says the almighty , Allah in verse 253 of al-Baqarah.


Qanitatun means devoted to Allah, therefore, a woman who obeys Allah must accept His command and acknowledge her duties she has to perform to please her husband who spends of his wealth to provide for her. She must also watch over his property and his interests, attend to his needs, and above all guard her chastity.

In case a perverse woman (wife) refuses to mend her ways (very common among the low-bred and ignorant women of easy virtue) then the husband can admonish her, and even stop sleeping with her, but if the corrective measures fail to refine her, he can take harsher steps to make her qanitatun (devoted and obedient to Allah).

To understand the true purport of this verse, it is essential to keep in mind verse 21 of al-Rum.

"Another of His signs is that He created out of you mates of your own kind so that you may find repose in them, and has instilled (ordained) love and kindness between you. Verily there are signs in this for those who reflect."

In many verses it has been ordained to, treat women with kindness and to speak to them gently.

The Holy Prophet said:

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife.".

There is not a single event of wife-beating or child-abuse in the lives of the Holy Prophet and his holy Ahl ul Bayt.


Fala tabghu alayhinna is a warning to the unscrupulous husbands not to seek an excuse for resorting to the conditional provision allowed to discipline the depraved women only.

[Admin]

Please all of you, no personnal attacks or discussions. Remember your posts will stay even when you will have gone from this world since long time.

[agakhani]

When someone was giving bayat to become a Muslim, during the era of our beloved Profit Mohammad (PBUH), one would go to him and take His Hand for bayat to become a Muslim and the Profit would accept his bayat. So, now a days if one (a non muslim) wants to take bayat and become muslim who's hand should he take?

Good question brother Tret,
As long as we Ismailis are concern we have that luxury in form of our Imam but you absolutely right if non-Muslim wants to take bayat then where does he/she goes? because Rasulullah (PBUH) has been passed away 1400 years ago!! then what he/she need to do for bayat!? be honest with you I do not have answer of this question, do you have? if yes please post it here.

[tret]

tret

Even if you get the opportunity to ask this question, if you are not open minded, it wouldn't do you any good. Let me ask you a question of my own. Please be honest and instead of answering this to me, try to answer it to yourself.

When someone was giving bayat to become a Muslim, during the era of our beloved Profit Mohammad (PBUH), one would go to him and take His Hand for bayat to become a Muslim and the Profit would accept his bayat. So, now a days if one (a non muslim) wants to take bayat and become muslim who's hand should he take? Is it that man's (non-muslim's) fault that he was not born during the era of the Profit Mohammad? That hand (the Profit's hand) must be present today. Nasir-e-Kusraw spent most of his life searching for that hand, and he eventually found that hand. Try to search for that hand.

Brother you are confusing Shahada and Bahaya

If non Muslim wants to revert he takes Shahada
Shahada is defined as follows:

"The first of the Five Pillars of Islam is the shahada. Shahada is the Muslim profession of faith, expressing the two simple, fundamental beliefs that make one a Muslim:

La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah.

There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God.
Sincere recitation of this confession of faith before of two Muslims is the sole requirement for those who wish to join the Muslim community. It represents acceptance not only of Allah and his prophet, but of the entirety of Islam.

As one of the Pillars, the shahada must be recited correctly aloud with full understanding and internal assent at least once in every Muslim's lifetime.

The shahada is also recited in the muzzein's call to prayer, included in the salat (daily ritual prayer) and incorporated in Sufi contemplative prayer. It is also recited in the moments before death.

From the shahada are derived the other fundamental doctrines of Islam: angels, the Qur'an and the Bible, the prophets, and the Day of Judgment."

Bayah is defined as follows:

Bay'ah (literally to sell):

in Islamic terminology, is an oath of allegiance to a leader. It is known to have been practiced by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Bay'ah is sometimes taken under a written pact given on behalf of the subjects by leading members of the tribe with the understanding that as long as the leader abides by certain requirements towards his people, they are to maintain their allegiance to him. Bay'ah is still practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Sudan. In Morocco, Bay'ah is one of the foundations of the Monarchy. In many Islamic traditions, the meaning of bay'ah is to sell ones self to a spiritual master, pir or sheikh in exchange for the spiritual knowledge which he gives.

There are Ahadith that Prophet SAW took Bayah from many women. He never held their hand in the process.

Thanks for reminding me that you are of our sunni brothers and you don't believe in the concept of Imamiah. So, apparently, my question will not be much of your concern, like you clearly indicated what bayat means to you (sunnies). So, doesn't surprise me if you don't seek The Hand for bayat.

[tret]

When someone was giving bayat to become a Muslim, during the era of our beloved Profit Mohammad (PBUH), one would go to him and take His Hand for bayat to become a Muslim and the Profit would accept his bayat. So, now a days if one (a non muslim) wants to take bayat and become muslim who's hand should he take?

Good question brother Tret,
As long as we Ismailis are concern we have that luxury in form of our Imam but you absolutely right if non-Muslim wants to take bayat then where does he/she goes? because Rasulullah (PBUH) has been passed away 1400 years ago!! then what he/she need to do for bayat!? be honest with you I do not have answer of this question, do you have? if yes please post it here.

Yes, I know the answer. We (ismailies) all do. It's our other muslim brothers need to find out.

I pointed out, one of our greatest Hujjat of all times (Hakim Nazir-e-Kusraw) saheb, was initially a Shia twelver for most of his life. Eventually, he started thinking about That Hand, must be present at his time and questioning that. After his journo from Khurasan to Egypt, he eventually was able to find that Hand, and accepted the tariqa of Ismaili. Our other muslim brothers (non-ismailies) must seek that hand today. It is not their fault that they were not born in the era of our beloved Profit (PBUH).

[a_27826]

Bay'ah (literally to sell):

in Islamic terminology, is an oath of allegiance to a leader. It is known to have been practiced by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Bay'ah is sometimes taken under a written pact given on behalf of the subjects by leading members of the tribe with the understanding that as long as the leader abides by certain requirements towards his people, they are to maintain their allegiance to him. Bay'ah is still practiced in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Sudan. In Morocco, Bay'ah is one of the foundations of the Monarchy. In many Islamic traditions, the meaning of bay'ah is to sell ones self to a spiritual master, pir or sheikh in exchange for the spiritual knowledge which he gives.

I think you are right, even the Imam thinks that not following him, one does not become a non muslim.

Most confusions come from Ahadith.

The Prophet is supposed to have said "Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya"



NT: You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?

AK: The Imam’s word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It’s one of the particularities of Ismailis. An Ismaili who did not obey my word in matters of Faith, would not be excommunicated, he would still be a Muslim. He simply would no longer be a member of the Jamat — the Community of Ismaili Muslims.

One has to make a very careful distinction here between worldly and religious matters. An Ismaili may ask my advice on a worldly problem, then not accept it. But if he were to ignore the Imam’s decision on matters of Faith, the Community pressures on him would be very strong.

The Sunday Times Interview, Part I, Nicholas Tomalin, ‘The Ruler Without A Kingdom’ (London, United Kingdom) 12 December 1965

[tret]

I think you are right, even the Imam thinks that not following him, one does not become a non muslim.

Most confusions come from Ahadith.

The Prophet is supposed to have said "Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya"

Believe me you, I know that!!

That's why I always refer to other non-ismaili muslims as brothers/sisters. I know our beloved Imam has stated that a bases for a muslim is the Shahada.


The only message I wanted to convey, is how little importance 'zznoor' has given to bayaat. Not only that; but also, he hasn't recognized the importance of giving bayaat to the Imam of the time. But, again, him coming from a main stream sunni background, I would expect him to.

Most confusions come from Ahadith.

The Prophet is supposed to have said "Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya"

I don't think it would be wise of anyone to try to correct our beloved Profit! He would have known best, and He did, what He has stated.

[a_27826]

Most confusions come from Ahadith.

The Prophet is supposed to have said "Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya"

I don't think it would be wise of anyone to try to correct our beloved Profit! He would have known best, and He did, what He has stated.

no, no no. I wouldn’t dream of correcting Prophet's words.

I personally find the statement correct.

Obviously one who hasn't recognize Imam of the Time, is certainly ignorant.

But did the Prophet really made that statement?

Not all Ahadith genuine.

Since this statement is true, does not necessarily mean it was made by the Prophet.

Somebody may have faked it by attributing it to the Prophet.

But yes, the statement is correct.

[tret]

But did the Prophet really made that statement?

Not all Ahadith genuine.

Since this statement is true, does not necessarily mean it was made by the Prophet.

Somebody may have faked it by attributing it to the Prophet.

But yes, the statement is correct.

There was/is no need for hadis in this matter, since Gadir-e-khum's event should be more than sufficient.