Is Quran compilation complete?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:57 pm

a_27826,

Chalo man lete hai ki Quran out dated nahi hai! but as you wrote above it is "false". ab Khush.

Tret,

Then please let us know, what's your point, by proving Qura'an is outdated?

My point is very simple bro, Quran is silent Quran it doesn't have answer of many many question, it is incomplete in many issues, therefore we need some one who can help us to better understand in Ismaili theology and must have "Rasikun fil Ilm' and I believe that our Imam fit in this category. so if I read and obey his farmans and read ginans then it is fine, that is what I heard in many waez and read in many Ismaili literature.

Let me copy and past here of a_27826 earlier post which tell a lot!!

Q. What is your role as head of the community?

A. It is two-fold. The Imam must direct Ismailis on the practice of their religion and constantly interpret the Qur'an for them according to our theology. On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible.
If you think Quran is complete and not outdated then that is fine with me, I do not want to hurt your feeling, just listen your heart and I am listing my heart.

Shiraz,

About alcohol it was my thinking it doesn't mean that I am drinking occasionally, I think I cleared earlier many time, do you want to copy and past it here again?

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 agree with you brother, that none of our Imam gave any farmans for drinking light beer is ok. but If you read my post carefully then you will find that I didn't say that MHI saying that drinking light beer is ok.nor he gave any Farman for his approval, here I repeat it what I wrote in my earlier post&#58;- 
Since it is quoted haram in Quran and also our beloved MHI forbidden it nobody should start it. 
But drinking moderately and occasionally was my personal opinion you and other readers don't need to follow my personal opinion &#40;after all in this forum we all have right to post our own opinion, so I posted my personal opinion and thinking which is not abide anybody. 
I hope this will clear your and other reader's misunderstanding.

[/b]

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Code&#58; 
Oppose drinking but yet you drink !!! Bravoooo bhai ....bravoo !!! 


That was my opinion that doesn't mean that I am doing that.

this post was posted on March, 2011.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:12 pm

agakhani wrote:a_27826,

Chalo man lete hai ki Quran out dated nahi hai! but as you wrote above it is "false". ab Khush.

thanx for clarifying it

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:29 pm

agakhani wrote:Since it is quoted haram in Quran and also our beloved MHI forbidden it nobody should start it.

i goggled little bit and found this:

Aga Khan IV --Sunday Times interview 12 Dec. 1965

Our belief is that the thing which separates man from the animals is his power of thought. Anything that impedes this process is wrong. Therefore alcohol is forbidden.I have never touched alcohol. But this, to me, is not a puritan prohibition. I Don't want to drink. I've never wanted to drink. There's no pressure being placed on me by my religion.

But couldn't find the prohibition in the Quran.......

can you please quote the verse ?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:44 pm

To all,
But Specially for Tret, brother Shiraz and a_27826.
Starting today I will not cticize quran any more, I received e-mails from some readers and they advised me not to write any thing against quran and leave it for MHI.
I also noticed that some readers in this forum take it seriously and I do not want hurt their feelings any more.
If you think I defeated therefore I backing off then yes I defeated and if you think e-mails are the reason then that iz the reason I am quiting.
I thank Shiraz, Tret admin and a_27826 for their comments.
I am not leaving this forum but I will not criticise quran any more.
Lastly I appolosize all of you guys if I hurt your feelng please forgive me
YAM.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:48 pm

tret wrote:
nuseri wrote:I have read that few bloggers have stated that Rasulillah PBUH was an Ummi/illerate.What is the basis of your conviction?
Well, what do you thin?

I think it's true!!!! I think our beloved Profit PBUH was indeed illiterate. But, consider this, how can an illiterate man come up with such great words (the ayats of Qura'an)? It's impossible unless the words would be from someone really superior. Someone above all humans. Someone who's words are not bound to time and space. Someone who's words are valid in any time and in any period (Just needs proper interpretation and tafsir. Not like agakani who's influenced and tries to interpret Qura'an like a christian and becomes 'gumrah'). So, yes, Our beloved Profit PBUH was indeed illiterate, but the ayats that was revealed to him was from someone very greater than us (humans).

Especially during those days, a person who doesn't know how to read and write doesn't mean he/she is not intelligent.

Prophet was brought up in an environment where many people were illiterate.

Regarding Quran, Prophet didn't read or write it. He recited it.

062:002 It is He who has raised up from among the unlettered people a Messenger from among them, to recite His signs to them and to purify them, and to teach them the Book and the Wisdom, though before that they were in manifest error.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:29 pm

agakhani wrote:To all,
But Specially for Tret, brother Shiraz and a_27826.
Starting today I will not cticize quran any more, I received e-mails from some readers and they advised me not to write any thing against quran and leave it for MHI.
I also noticed that some readers in this forum take it seriously and I do not want hurt their feelings any more.
If you think I defeated therefore I backing off then yes I defeated and if you think e-mails are the reason then that iz the reason I am quiting.
I thank Shiraz, Tret admin and a_27826 for their comments.
I am not leaving this forum but I will not criticise quran any more.
Lastly I appolosize all of you guys if I hurt your feelng please forgive me
YAM.

Just before you back off, I'd like you to define what do you think of something being 'outdated'? Not necessarily Qura'an, but anything. Shiraz tried to give you an example of milk. Can you define in your own words what 'outdated' means to you? So, if you could answer the following two questions, we could seal this topic.

1. How do you define 'outdated', in your own words?
2. Why does something become 'outdated'? And what do we need to do about it?

I can tell you my understanding of an 'outdated' thing. Since I am working with computer/software, so I will give you an example of software.

Now a days everyone works with some sort of software, like MS Office. 10 years ago older version of a software was being used everywhere. But, today, most probably the same version of software is not used. Why? because they are outdated. Why outdated? Because they don't meet today's requirements. Because things changed and the software 10 years ago, doesn't support today's demand and requirements.

What's the solution? The software company need to write a newer version of their product to meet today's demand and requirements. And the customers need to upgrade their old version of software.

Problem solved! No more outdated software. Everyone's happy.

So tell me brother agakhani, can you apply same analogy to Qura'an? In my humble opinion, not. And I can tell you why not.

First, if Qura'an was outdated; this would mean that what God has said some 1400 years ago was once valid, and now since things has changed, words of God is no longer valid. As a result, He needs to come up with new resolutions, because you are now living in US. This implies that God doesn't know about future.

According to any Abrahimic faith/religion (i.e. Jew, Christian, Islam), God is not bound to time and space. God has created time and space. God is omnipresent and omnipotent. To God past, present and future are all present. God's knowledge doesn't increase or decrease. He know all, past, present future. That's the belief of Muslim (If you consider yourself a Muslim, then I would expect you to agree with this). This is one of first pillars of Islam and one of the first pillars of Ismaili as well (Tawhid). So, if you do agree with this, then God's word would never be outdated, because to God future is present, and he would have complete knowledge/understanding of the circumstances and as a result nothing outdated.

It's us humans who are limited in understanding of words of God and start blaming God when we don't understand it. So, that's why God has sent us Hazir Imam throughout various times, so the true meaning of Qura'an is being delivered to the ummah.

Another thing, you don't hurt anyone's feeling by critisizing Qura'an. You are insulting Islam, God and everything else around it. And what you say, simply reflects your ideology and personality. I'd really advise you to do some reading about the history of Islam and specially about the history of Ismailism. Where did Ismailies come from. Where did you come from.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:47 pm

And do we have the capacity to stop Allah from adapting his messages according to time and dimensions. Allah knows that time change, circumstances change, even space change.

He would not ask people to do in today's world what he would have asked them to do in a million year from now or what he would have asked a retarded society to do many many thousands of years ago.

Allah would not ask people of planet earth to do what he would ask people of Alfa Centauri or Akhir an-Nahr to do.

Allah is much beyond being restricted to few pages.

Allah's Quran envelops the totality of all his messages to all his creations, to the totality of all the parallel universes, to the totality of all the Dimensions and all the beings of the existing universes and universes yet to exists in Allah's continuous creation.

Usman's Quran comes nowhere near Allah's Quran.

We, Ismailis, bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah's Quran.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:22 am

Usman's Quran comes nowhere near Allah's Quran.

And where is this mythological Allah's Quran?
It is Hazar Imam.
Go to page one and start all over again.

We, Ismailis, bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah's Quran

Muslims only bow bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah SWT.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:51 am

1. How do you define 'outdated', in your own words?

The word outdated in my definition is some thing old; no longer valid; no longer in use; once it was ok but not now; old ritual but it is not in practice any more. lets take example about beating wife, it might be necessary during prophet time but it is not now that is why it is outdated practice, another example Allah says in one ayas ( not exact words) that he make camel and horses for our ride but now a days it is old practice we are riding now a days in cars,plane,, jeep and bus e.t.c. that is why you can say that camel, horse and donkey ride is out dated now a days.

2. Why does something become 'outdated'? And what do we need to do about it?

I don't think I have to give answer of above question to a computer software guy!! but let me explain it, let me give you example of your field 'THE FLOPY DISK' once it was used like a hot cake but it is out dated now a days and CD/DVD/ has taken flopy disk place. This way as technology get more progress the things getting outdated, I think you probably know that the first computer was holding a space of big room but now you can keep computer in your palm!!! That old computer which was taking a room space become out dated and thus the things become outdated.

What we need to do about it? good question just accept the new technology as long as it is permitted by our religion and Quran.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:32 am

agakhani wrote:
1. How do you define 'outdated', in your own words?
The word outdated in my definition is some thing old; no longer valid; no longer in use; once it was ok but not now; old ritual but it is not in practice any more. lets take example about beating wife, it might be necessary during prophet time but it is not now that is why it is outdated practice, another example Allah says in one ayas ( not exact words) that he make camel and horses for our ride but now a days it is old practice we are riding now a days in cars,plane,, jeep and bus e.t.c. that is why you can say that camel, horse and donkey ride is out dated now a days.

2. Why does something become 'outdated'? And what do we need to do about it?
I don't think I have to give answer of above question to a computer software guy!! but let me explain it, let me give you example of your field 'THE FLOPY DISK' once it was used like a hot cake but it is out dated now a days and CD/DVD/ has taken flopy disk place. This way as technology get more progress the things getting outdated, I think you probably know that the first computer was holding a space of big room but now you can keep computer in your palm!!! That old computer which was taking a room space become out dated and thus the things become outdated.

What we need to do about it? good question just accept the new technology as long as it is permitted by our religion and Quran.

Again you are going in circle my friend. You didn't pay attention what I was asking, and what I was explaining. It maybe your interpretation of Qura'an and your understanding about beating ones wife and/or riding animals. If you recall, we are batini and we must seek the batini meaning of such symbolism. I must agree with you that beating ones wife (or beating anyone) under no circumstance is okay to me nor to anyone. If that was words of all to beat your wife, then i don't subscribe to that.

What i am saying is humans have limited understanding/capacity of analysing God's words. Only Hazir Imam can reveal the true interpretation of it. You always provide translation of Qura'an by piktal and others, how capable were they by translating the words of God accurately? besides who did the tafsir of that ayat, so you concluded that during the era of our beloved profit, it was okay to beat ones wife? apparently you got your facts from some other non-islamic forums, as you clearly indicated.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:53 am

Let make this thing clear and for forewer, since I am not posting my comments/arguments on Quran any more.
Whatever I wrote earlier i.e. Quran is incomplete, Quran is contradictory, Quran is outdated, Quran has been changed many times e.t.c. I am still backing with my above thinking, whether this thinking may come from my mind or from other literature ( as per your accusation from Hindu literature) I read so far. but one thing is clear that I couldn't explained it effectively.

Aap jaisa bhi mante ho Quran ko vaise hi mante raho, muje koi etraj nahi, aour me jo manta hu vaise hi manne do

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:09 am

agakhani wrote:Let make this thing clear and for forewer, since I am not posting my comments/arguments on Quran any more.
Whatever I wrote earlier i.e. Quran is incomplete, Quran is contradictory, Quran is outdated, Quran has been changed many times e.t.c. I am still backing with my above thinking, whether this thinking may come from my mind or from other literature ( as per your accusation from Hindu literature) I read so far. but one thing is clear that I couldn't explained it effectively.

Aap jaisa bhi mante ho Quran ko vaise hi mante raho, muje koi etraj nahi, aour me jo manta hu vaise hi manne do

One last question:

Imagine you have a jug of water for drinking. You find out that there's a fly (or dirt) is in that jug of drinking water. What would you do with that water? Would you throw away the entire water? or remove the fly (the dirt) and keep drinking from it? or don't care about the fly (the dirt) and keep drinking from it?

You can think of Qura'an the same way. Qura'an is 'paak' (divine). Whether you accept it in its totality or you don't.

It appears to me that you've already made up your mind that you don't believe in it at all.

Then answer my final question brother.

- You are an ismailie, right? do you recite the holly dua everyday? where composes the holly dua? where are the 5 sections of our holly dua taken from?

So, if you answered these questions, and you recite holly dua, which is composed of sorahs taken from the Qura'an, then why do you recite dua?

Post by **Admin** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:10 am

After 41 pages of discussion, I think it is appropriate to close this thread as people are repeating what is already in the previous pages. It also becomes very difficult to follow a thread or find buried information in so many pages.

This thread will close next Sunday. I suggest short and to the point closing remarks by all those who have participated.

Admin

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:13 am

Admin wrote:...Usman's Quran comes nowhere near Allah's Quran.

Admin

Admin brother, can you elaborate on this?

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:47 am

Admin wrote:After 41 pages of discussion, I think it is appropriate to close this thread as people are repeating what is already in the previous pages. It also becomes very difficult to follow a thread or find buried information in so many pages.

This thread will close next Sunday. I suggest short and to the point closing remarks by all those who have participated.

Admin

Does that mean the topic regarding "Is Quran complete?" is solved/answered?

If not, then let the thread be alive so that the future/other participants can share their views.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:58 am

a_27826 wrote:
Admin wrote:After 41 pages of discussion, I think it is appropriate to close this thread as people are repeating what is already in the previous pages. It also becomes very difficult to follow a thread or find buried information in so many pages.

This thread will close next Sunday. I suggest short and to the point closing remarks by all those who have participated.

Admin
Does that mean the topic regarding "Is Quran complete?" is solved/answered?

If not, then let the thread be alive so that the future/other participants can share their views.

or it’s because the arguments are now going against your personal believes?

i hope you don't ban me for saying that.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:27 pm

a_27826 said :

Does that mean the topic regarding "Is Quran complete?" is solved/answered?

If not, then let the thread be alive so that the future/other participants can share their views.

This issue whether quran is complete or not would go on forever...I would say what shamsB said in the past

"Let us all agree to disagree"

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:36 pm

a_27826 said :

or it’s because the arguments are now going against your personal believes?

Going against his belief's how ???

You and myself had a discussion on this very topic about the compilation of holy quran ...correct ???....Do you think the quran that we have today is complete or Do you think that the quran that we have today is what remained of it ???

I just wanna know where you stand on this issue.

As I said earlier, its the imam of the time that completes the quran and not vice versa.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:42 pm

zznoor said :

Muslims only bow bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah SWT.

I would go even further, I would say all the 70+ sects in islam are like rivers that travels through different channels but in the end they all merge into the ocean [which is their destination]

Please be a part of that river[any] rather than an isolated lake that is drying up faster than you think.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:51 pm

the question is...

IS QURAN COMPLETE OR NOT

there is the useless and out of topic debate and fight in this 42 pages...

in my opinion QURAN never be incomplete,never outdated

BUT

BOOK OF USMAN is in complete and outdated

for me there are two things

1) QURAN (FIRMANS and GINANS)
2) BOOK OF USMAN and near me this book is not that source of hidayat viz reaveled on PROPHET....

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:46 pm

As I said earlier, its the imam of the time that completes the quran and not vice versa.

Can anybody quote a single Aya given to us by Imam Ali thru Imam Karim?

If not then why this myth of Bolta Quran?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:55 pm

zznoor said :

Can anybody quote a single Aya given to us by Imam Ali thru Imam Karim?

If not then why this myth of Bolta Quran?

Single aayat ???...Well it is mentioned in the book compiled by zaid bhai and other 3 sahabas , infact we ismailis recite that aayat 3 times a day...It's called surah yasin 36:12

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/10404

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:46 pm

Al-Durr Al-Manthur is the book written by Al-Suyuti, A sunni who belonged to shafi'i school @ below is the link, I want sister zznoor to quickly glance on page number 50-51 where al suyuti says:

According to suyuti, the quran apart from its 114 surahs, it also had 2 additional surahs namely :

Surah Al-Khal &
Surah Al-Hafd

slideshare.net/kingabid/aldurr-almanthur

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Admin It's my humble request to you....please do no delete @ above link

Moving on ....on the same link that I have provided please scroll to page number 233 and read from there.

Look what Al Suyuti has to say about Gadhir e Khum...Look what he has to say about surah 5:67 and for whom it was revealed.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:06 pm

a_27826 wrote:
Admin wrote:After 41 pages of discussion, I think it is appropriate to close this thread as people are repeating what is already in the previous pages. It also becomes very difficult to follow a thread or find buried information in so many pages.

This thread will close next Sunday. I suggest short and to the point closing remarks by all those who have participated.

Admin
Does that mean the topic regarding "Is Quran complete?" is solved/answered?

If not, then let the thread be alive so that the future/other participants can share their views.

I think we've completely digressed from the topic.

and if you look above ZZNOOR is back with her Imamat Bashing attitude.

I agree with Admin - we should close this thread. We have now moved onto discussing singular ayats and trying to translate them.
That isn't a discussion on if the Quran is complete or not.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:10 pm

zznoor wrote:
As I said earlier, its the imam of the time that completes the quran and not vice versa.
Can anybody quote a single Aya given to us by Imam Ali thru Imam Karim?

If not then why this myth of Bolta Quran?

Yes we can

Millions of them - go read the Farmans and the Ginans.

problem is..you don't want to read them...and you're not actually here to learn but rather shove your shairat down our throats.

Why shove something down our throat that you, yourself are unable to digest?

First accept the IMAM as the IMAM

or as your Quran calls him

IMAM-E-MUBEEN

then go from there...

We are kafiroon....leave us alone...read and follow your own quran.

"to you yours, and to me mine".

Shams

Post by **Admin** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:10 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:zznoor said :

Muslims only bow bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah SWT.
I would go even further, I would say all the 70+ sects in islam are like rivers that travels through different channels but in the end they all merge into the ocean [which is their destination]

Please be a part of that river[any] rather than an isolated lake that is drying up faster than you think.

What you are saying is in fact exactly the opposite of what the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said. he said all those 72 sects will go astray and only one the 73rd will reach salvation. He said that 73rd one will only care for the love of Ali and Ahl-e Bait, they will be small in number. This hadith has been reported in this manner by our Imam Aga Ali Shah in his Farman.

Hazar Imam also spoke of the 72 sects in his Farman in Karachi in October 2000. And yes this is part of the Bolta Quran which is not a Myth as every day He guides us.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:02 am

Admin wrote:
shiraz.virani wrote:zznoor said :

Muslims only bow bow down in submission and humility to the Grandeur of Allah SWT.
I would go even further, I would say all the 70+ sects in islam are like rivers that travels through different channels but in the end they all merge into the ocean [which is their destination]

Please be a part of that river[any] rather than an isolated lake that is drying up faster than you think.
What you are saying is in fact exactly the opposite of what the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said. he said all those 72 sects will go astray and only one the 73rd will reach salvation. He said that 73rd one will only care for the love of Ali and Ahl-e Bait, they will be small in number. This hadith has been reported in this manner by our Imam Aga Ali Shah in his Farman.

Hazar Imam also spoke of the 72 sects in his Farman in Karachi in October 2000. And yes this is part of the Bolta Quran which is not a Myth as every day He guides us.

Admin,

Who are you quoting farmans to?

These people are more intelligent that the Imam himself - who is Rasikun fil Ilm.

Do you think a farman makes sense to them? or is acceptable to them?

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah in Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen has clearly addressed the issue of the Qur'an being incomplete and altered. Yet we still go down scholarly paths to prove one way or another.
Yes, our faith is one of intellect - but our faith is bound to the Imam.

The Qur'an itself attests that the knowledge and authority of everything vests in him. Yet we question and try to prove him wrong.

I think this thread has run it's course.

For the record ZZNOOR - i bow down to the IMAM - and if that makes me a nonmuslim along with my sect of ismailies - and that will cause you to follow your faith's instructions - to you yours and to me mine - I will organize a sagridham and dandiya that you are now finally following your faith and on your way to heaven and will get the 72 houries.
Btw what sex are those houries? coz the quran doesn't talk about the sex or the nature - just that there are 72 of them.

Shams

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:09 am

Ya Ali Madad:
on my question of Rasulillah being Ummi?
Firstly I refuse the present Quran as is What is basis.It is distorted in mant ayats n tampered with placements of it.
Agakhani was right with the Ayat,which I also feel cannot be the words of Allah.
We Ismailis do not need to take Quran by granted word by word,many being CRAP. n improper translation.
Today in bangladesh the Ummi/illiterate population is 32 among adults.
1400 years back the word would have been no more than 10 percent literate.especially in Arabia.
The early Ayats,which may be distorted as well. talk about Mohammed,who was aslo mentioned in bible n torah would come from unlearned class.
It happened so.Those Ayats are there to valid early saying of Allah to the people of the book.
In the trird Ayat .it foe illiterate people to rasulillah would advice n give wisdom/(wisdom is opposite word of ignorant/ummi).
Mohammed may have been un learned till the night of Qadr(power).
He was blessed will all the intellect by Allah.greater than all preceeding prophets.
In a court of law,any material said or written is proved to be by an illiterate,than the Judge declare the whole material as Forgery atributed to that illiterate.this way Quran would stand to be Null n void in legal parlance.
Rasulillah (pbuh) was blessed with the highest intellect bestowed on earth ny Allah.even Pirs are shade lower in intellect,despite same noorani hidayat.
What about the hadiths the real atributted to Prophet as his acts,saying n narration.
Does it sound like a ingorant/ummi speaking.
In real world a FOOL need greater FOOLS to follow him/her.
30 % of the world is following the greatness n intellect of prophet.
Some body gave MHI definition of educated peson.
Here is the definition of Prophet by MHI at Seerat conference in 1976

" Holy Prophet’s life gives us every fundamental guideline that we require to resolve the problem as successfully as our human minds and intellects can visualize. His example of integrity, loyalty, honesty, generosity both of means and of time, his solicitude for the poor, the weak and the sick, his steadfastness in friendship, his humility in success, his magnanimity in victory, his simplicity, his wisdom in conceiving new solutions for problems which could not be solved by traditional methods, without affecting the fundamental concepts of Islam, surely all these are foundations which, correctly understood and sincerely interpreted, must enable us to conceive what should be a truly modern and dynamic Islamic Society in the years ahead."
There is no mention of the word ignorant/Ummi n but the words such as wisdom,intellect,problem solving is attributed to him.

I personally feel a person convinced of Rasulillah being Ignorant/Ummi can be legally proved as NON MUSLIM in any jury or even in the eyes of ALI.

BOTTOM LINE LINE FOR ISMAILIS TO BELIEVE IN OUR IMAMS N NOT JUST
TEMPERED AYATS AT ZAHIRI LEVEL OF QURAN.

RESPECT QURAN N LET ITS DEBATE PASS BY AS IT DOES NOT AFFECT US WHETHER IT IS COMPLETE OR NOT.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:04 am

ShamsB wrote:
zznoor wrote:
As I said earlier, its the imam of the time that completes the quran and not vice versa.
Can anybody quote a single Aya given to us by Imam Ali thru Imam Karim?

If not then why this myth of Bolta Quran?
Yes we can
Please do. A Aya which is not part of so called Uthman Quran but missing or omitted Aya.

Millions of them - go read the Farmans and the Ginans.
I have also read Farmans posted on this site
problem is..you don't want to read them...and you're not actually here to learn but rather shove your shairat down our throats.
I am only asking proof from the mouth of Imams. A deleted word, additional word or Aya not included in Quran.
Why shove something down our throat that you, yourself are unable to digest?
I am not trying to shove down mainstream Islam down anybody's throat. I am defending Quran.
First accept the IMAM as the IMAM
Yes you have living Imam. He is nice leader. He is not my religious leader nor of rest of Muslims.

or as your Quran calls him

IMAM-E-MUBEEN
That is Ismaili version. We believe it is Quran
then go from there...

We are kafiroon....leave us alone...read and follow your own quran.

"to you yours, and to me mine".

Shams

Appeal to Ismaili brothers

Please stop this. Respect that mainstream Muslim's belief that Quran is sacrosanct, eternal and unedited holy book. So far no solid proof has been furnished of missing or edited part of Quran. I am talking about from the mouth of Imams. Mere mention of doubt is not proof. Farmans has no meaning for non Ismailis.

Ginan and other Ismaili religious material are sacrosanct to Khoja Ismaili and I respect that.

Please remember this 40+ pages will remain as a proof that many of you lack faith in Quran in the book form.

Salaam