where a bad person go after death in ismailism

[mrimonuk]

<P>Thanks for replying my questions. Mullah Sadra&nbsp;was an important scholar of Twelver Shia Faith.&nbsp;In some his workings he stated about "Transmigration"&nbsp; of souls..............that is there&nbsp;is an another world where souls go after death and stay there until all purification has been taken place....................then the purified souls can go close to&nbsp;Allah................Please, tell me what the Ismaili Scholars&nbsp;think about "transmigration" and also&nbsp;let me&nbsp;know whether&nbsp;any&nbsp;firman has been given regarding "Tranmigration" by&nbsp;Honorable Imams.&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>

[mrimonuk]

In the holy Quran it is said couple of time that the people who have faith in Allah and do good work will go to the heaven. As per Islam and Ismailism what actually the "good work"&nbsp; means....................is it following the Sharia................or doing good work as much as a person capacity permits.............................In that case,&nbsp;different person have different type of capacity, attributes&nbsp;and environment&nbsp;for doing "good work"..........................So, there&nbsp;should be different kind of "good work" requirement for different type of persons. For example, If a rich mother steal milk for his child that may not be a good work, however if a poor mum who has no option left&nbsp;rather stealing &nbsp;milk for her child may not be regarded as bad work.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[skaswani]

Yam

I don’t know why we don’t know about our religion??

“reincarnation” concept was given for indo-pak people. When our Pir came here to preach. 1st they learn & read Hinduism & then they intro OUR IMAM as there 10th AWART!

So, we can see “reincarnation” & other Hindu tradition in Ismailies.

But then Imam avoid those ginans & if you say that Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah have various Farman on “reincarnation” then I have to remind you that we believe in HaZir Imam.
& he has all rights to avoid any previous Imam Farman!

So, now about the question: if a good Ismaili will go to the noor of God
Then where other/bad people will go. He will be punish for his sins , simple

We can define its like :
Heaven = Noor of GOD
Hell = punishment

Simple as that
YAm

[mrimonuk]

<P>YAM,<BR>what is the meaning of the word&nbsp;"Sin" &nbsp;as per Ismailism. &nbsp;</P>

[kmaherali]

<P>Please, tell me what the Ismaili Scholars&nbsp;think about "transmigration" and also&nbsp;let me&nbsp;know whether&nbsp;any&nbsp;firman has been given regarding "Tranmigration" by&nbsp;Honorable Imams.&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>

There have been references in the previous posts on this. There is a quote from Nasir Tusi and a statement of our Imam as well. Please read them and let us know if it helps.

[kmaherali]

<P>YAM,<BR>what is the meaning of the word&nbsp;"Sin" &nbsp;as per Ismailism. &nbsp;</P>

In my opinion sin in Ismailism is NAFARMANI .

[star_munir]

skaswani Do you meant to write that in times of Sultan Muhammad Shah there was reincarnation or rebirth but now this not happens as Hazir Imam changed this system................
Pir not converted hindus by cheating them or telling falsehood to hindus about religion.

[ShamsB]

Yam

I don’t know why we don’t know about our religion??

“reincarnation” concept was given for indo-pak people. When our Pir came here to preach. 1st they learn & read Hinduism & then they intro OUR IMAM as there 10th AWART!

So, we can see “reincarnation” & other Hindu tradition in Ismailies.

But then Imam avoid those ginans & if you say that Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah have various Farman on “reincarnation” then I have to remind you that we believe in HaZir Imam.
& he has all rights to avoid any previous Imam Farman!

So, now about the question: if a good Ismaili will go to the noor of God
Then where other/bad people will go. He will be punish for his sins , simple

We can define its like :
Heaven = Noor of GOD
Hell = punishment

Simple as that
YAm

Please check your sources..if we are going to look at the shariat for reincarnation..here it is.

Surah Baqarah.
2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave Life to you! Then he will give you death, then Life again, and then unto Him ye will return.


therefore reincarnation does happen..even in the Qur'an so the pirs weren't lying.
And speaking of Farmans..MHI constantly speaks of plurality..MSMS had always told us and MHI has also stressed not to criticize the faith of others..as an ismaili..i do believe in reincarnation and if in the books of the illinformed arabist shariati ismailies..it makes me less of an ismaili than so be it.

"Is fera mahe jo tu bhool jayesi to bahot khayesi fera kiya nind sove mann mera.." from Kalpat ..no inkling of Hinduism in that ginan.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Yam

I don’t know why we don’t know about our religion??

“reincarnation” concept was given for indo-pak people. When our Pir came here to preach. 1st they learn & read Hinduism & then they intro OUR IMAM as there 10th AWART!

So, we can see “reincarnation” & other Hindu tradition in Ismailies.

But then Imam avoid those ginans & if you say that Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah have various Farman on “reincarnation” then I have to remind you that we believe in HaZir Imam.
& he has all rights to avoid any previous Imam Farman!

So, now about the question: if a good Ismaili will go to the noor of God
Then where other/bad people will go. He will be punish for his sins , simple

We can define its like :
Heaven = Noor of GOD
Hell = punishment

Simple as that
YAm

Please check your sources..if we are going to look at the shariat for reincarnation..here it is.

Surah Baqarah.
2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave Life to you! Then he will give you death, then Life again, and then unto Him ye will return.


therefore reincarnation does happen..even in the Qur'an so the pirs weren't lying.
And speaking of Farmans..MHI constantly speaks of plurality..MSMS had always told us and MHI has also stressed not to criticize the faith of others..as an ismaili..i do believe in reincarnation and if in the books of the illinformed arabist shariati ismailies..it makes me less of an ismaili than so be it.

"Is fera mahe jo tu bhool jayesi to bahot khayesi fera kiya nind sove mann mera.." from Kalpat ..no inkling of Hinduism in that ginan.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Yam

I don’t know why we don’t know about our religion??

“reincarnation” concept was given for indo-pak people. When our Pir came here to preach. 1st they learn & read Hinduism & then they intro OUR IMAM as there 10th AWART!

So, we can see “reincarnation” & other Hindu tradition in Ismailies.

But then Imam avoid those ginans & if you say that Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah have various Farman on “reincarnation” then I have to remind you that we believe in HaZir Imam.
& he has all rights to avoid any previous Imam Farman!

So, now about the question: if a good Ismaili will go to the noor of God
Then where other/bad people will go. He will be punish for his sins , simple

We can define its like :
Heaven = Noor of GOD
Hell = punishment

Simple as that
YAm

Please check your sources..if we are going to look at the shariat for reincarnation..here it is.

Surah Baqarah.
2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave Life to you! Then he will give you death, then Life again, and then unto Him ye will return.


therefore reincarnation does happen..even in the Qur'an so the pirs weren't lying.
And speaking of Farmans..MHI constantly speaks of plurality..MSMS had always told us and MHI has also stressed not to criticize the faith of others..as an ismaili..i do believe in reincarnation and if in the books of the illinformed arabist shariati ismailies..it makes me less of an ismaili than so be it.

"Is fera mahe jo tu bhool jayesi to bahot khayesi fera kiya nind sove mann mera.." from Kalpat ..no inkling of Hinduism in that ginan.

Shams

There is also a farman of MHI that says "life is but a short passage through eternity" to me it means that there are other lives..in other dimensions..in other times...
also most faiths are built on the law of karma..we are taught that for every action there is a reaction..and thus that ties in to reincarnation.

Shams

[mrimonuk]

When people become enlightened then his mind does not permit to do any sin..............if he does the sin...............then it indicates that he is still short of enlighment.............and noor of Allah..........it may be required number of reincarnation for some&nbsp;soul to achieve the enlightment and&nbsp;close ness to&nbsp;Allah.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

[shamsu]

YAM ShamsB,

Every action can have a reaction only when there is an entity present to experience the reaction.

Another thing, if the real entity causing the action is realised, how then can any other bear the reaction.

Let me try to explain what I understand.

When a person calls upon YA ALY, for that moment he ceases to exist and YA ALY occupies his body. During that moment whatever pain or pleasure he experiences is actually borne by YA ALY. I say this because Imam says that when we call upon him he is with us. How can anything/anyone else remain if he is present?

Now ponder upon the kadi from Brahmprakash "Chale trat jeha prem ki dhara, peevat prem hovat matwala"

Think of "YA ALY" the jaap as one drop of love. Now imagine a stream not unlike the one we see when we pour water from a jug into a glass from a little distance.

For that momin for whom the jaap has become a stream, where is the YA and where is the ALY. He exists in ALY and ALY exists in him. How can this person have any Karma anymore.

I believe this to be one route to achieving freedon from the cycles of Karma/rebirth.

Shams

[ShamsB]

YAM ShamsB,

Every action can have a reaction only when there is an entity present to experience the reaction.

Another thing, if the real entity causing the action is realised, how then can any other bear the reaction.

Let me try to explain what I understand.

When a person calls upon YA ALY, for that moment he ceases to exist and YA ALY occupies his body. During that moment whatever pain or pleasure he experiences is actually borne by YA ALY. I say this because Imam says that when we call upon him he is with us. How can anything/anyone else remain if he is present?

Now ponder upon the kadi from Brahmprakash "Chale trat jeha prem ki dhara, peevat prem hovat matwala"

Think of "YA ALY" the jaap as one drop of love. Now imagine a stream not unlike the one we see when we pour water from a jug into a glass from a little distance.

For that momin for whom the jaap has become a stream, where is the YA and where is the ALY. He exists in ALY and ALY exists in him. How can this person have any Karma anymore.

I believe this to be one route to achieving freedon from the cycles of Karma/rebirth.

Shams

I agree..but how many of us are "momins" in the true sense of the word?
how many of us are wasting this birth away? as said in ginan.

[kenshin]

when an ismaili dies,he is placed in one of the seven levels acc. to his doings in the world.seven levels refer to seven aasmans above the earth or perhaps these are seven heavens or (seven valleys as the tutor of maulana rumi has explained in the story of "the conference of birds") or seven layers above earth as scienec describes it as toposphere,stratosphere and 5 others extending different kilometers.
It is said that the God's throne is at the highest level-7th level.after the death of an ismaili(ismaili only coz he had had recognized the imam of the time in his worldly life-i guess, ofcourse how can i be sure),he is placed in one of the valleys where now his journey wud begin and thru ibadat he will have to progress upwards to the next higher level(rumi's master has also given names of the valleys-valley of love,valley of wisdom etc i don remember the names, and also told how difficult they r to clear andalso that thru each valley many mysteries are revealed etc )the RUH progresses and finally attains salvation by uniting with the Ultimate reality-God.

Also , if (the points earned from ones doings /deeds in this world < points to get admission in the first level )

{
cout<<"sorry pal u ll have to go back to earth"<<endl;
}

/*that may happen incase of less good deeds, a person died with huge amount of debt on his account etc*/

if (committed a suicide)
{
cout<<"reincarnation,possibly to a lower form than a human being or some really disgusting place"<<endl;
}

Ofcourse this can be totally wrong, and is just an interpretation of few source materials i had had access to couple of yrs back.I know abt various comments n criticisms to come, but wud comment further on it later coz have exams n gtg .Yam

[ShamsB]

when an ismaili dies,he is placed in one of the seven levels acc. to his doings in the world.seven levels refer to seven aasmans above the earth or perhaps these are seven heavens or (seven valleys as the tutor of maulana rumi has explained in the story of "the conference of birds") or seven layers above earth as scienec describes it as toposphere,stratosphere and 5 others extending different kilometers.
It is said that the God's throne is at the highest level-7th level.after the death of an ismaili(ismaili only coz he had had recognized the imam of the time in his worldly life-i guess, ofcourse how can i be sure),he is placed in one of the valleys where now his journey wud begin and thru ibadat he will have to progress upwards to the next higher level(rumi's master has also given names of the valleys-valley of love,valley of wisdom etc i don remember the names, and also told how difficult they r to clear andalso that thru each valley many mysteries are revealed etc )the RUH progresses and finally attains salvation by uniting with the Ultimate reality-God.

Also , if (the points earned from ones doings /deeds in this world < points to get admission in the first level )

{
cout<<"sorry pal u ll have to go back to earth"<<endl;
}

/*that may happen incase of less good deeds, a person died with huge amount of debt on his account etc*/

if (committed a suicide)
{
cout<<"reincarnation,possibly to a lower form than a human being or some really disgusting place"<<endl;
}

Ofcourse this can be totally wrong, and is just an interpretation of few source materials i had had access to couple of yrs back.I know abt various comments n criticisms to come, but wud comment further on it later coz have exams n gtg .Yam

Speaking of Rumi,
wasn't he the one who said..first i was a rock, then i became a bird..than an animal..etc....
speaking clearly of reincarnation...

once again..ismailism allows for multiple interpretations of the faith..let's not shoot down others with different ideas than ours..let's not adopt dogmatic approaches to our faith..or as i now refer to it as BUSH mentality..either you're with us or against us

[al-azhar]

Is there a difference between reincarnation of a human soul and evolution of a soul, for example as Rumi has described "from mineral to plant to....""
Does the momin's soul have to be reborn to ascent to the seventh level ?

[ShamsB]

Is there a difference between reincarnation of a human soul and evolution of a soul, for example as Rumi has described "from mineral to plant to....""
Does the momin's soul have to be reborn to ascent to the seventh level ?

In my opinion..yes..
because being born an ismaili doesn't mean a free pass to nirvana, salvation, fanafillah..to the status of Al Hallaj..
One has to work towards it..one has to earn it by performing both Good Karma and Good Dharma...

Shams.

[yaaaahoooo]

illinformed arabist shariati ismailies..Shams

Is this really what the Imam wants from us......?????

are these words really in the spirit of frontierless brotherhood.......?

Is the writer setting an example of true farmaanbardaar MOMIN?



Tauba karo allahmeheriyaa.......