Question on Ginan Pachamthi Shahna

mmomin14 · Post by **mmomin14** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:29 pm

Ya ali madad
I have this confusion from the past few years but couldnt find the rite place to ask it..
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We have a ginan 'Pachamthi Shahna dal Avashe'
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in that we have a kadi
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"eji kon avya ne kon avshe ane kon te avan harya ji
eji pir sadardin avya ne pir a kabirdin avshe ane pir imamudin avan harya ji"
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now as we all know that after pir sadardin, pir kabirdin succeded to piratan but after him came pir tajdin....and after him came pir pandya te jawamardi .
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So who is Pir Imamuddin that pir sadardin prophesies about
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is it about sayed Imamshah as his name was also imamuddin??
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i will be highly obliged and relieved if someone sheds light on this question of mine as i m looking for a answer from a long time......
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Ya Ali madad

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:54 pm

Sure,

Sayed Imamshah was not our appointed pir but he was sadat, he was son of pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.), nephew of pir Tajdin, grand son of pir Sadardin and brother of BAI BUDHAI, he composed many ginans and his ginans are still reciting in jamat khana today.
He was thinking that after the death of his father pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.) he was strong candidate for the piratan but Imam give piratan to pir Tajdin, so he become little disappointed first but after the visit of Imam Islamshah (s.a.) He realized that the office of Pir (piratan) can only be bestowed by the Imam of the time (Imam-e-Zaman) after that realization he composed many valuable ginans, granths and shastra.
You will be surprise but many ginans of Syed Imam shah also have in possession of Imamshahi sect, I compared our ginans with their ginas but basically they are all same except few changes in words.

Pir Indra Imamdin was our 8Th pir appointed by Imam Wafi Ahmed but he never came in India and so that he never composed any ginans in Gujarati language.

So who is Pir Imamuddin that pir sadardin prophesies about.

That is absolutely right Syed Imamuddin and syed Imamdin also known Indra Imamdin is same person (sadat) you can tell him as a pir as he wrote many valuable granths like Nakalnki gita,after his death his son Nurmohammad shah started Imamshahi sect.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:33 pm

I would not be categoric that this talks of the lineage of Pirs. It just says Imamddin in coming, not Imamddin is Pir. Here the work "Pir" may just be used as a mater of respect, not as "satadhari" authorised Pir.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:03 am

"Eji kon avya ne kon avshe, ane kon te aavan hariya ji,
Eji pir Sadardin aviya ne pir Kabirdin avshe ane pir Imamudin aavan hariya Ji"

As per Gujarati dictionary the word 'AAVAN HARIYA" means 'will come',
now if we translate of above ginanic verse's line # 2 then its simple translation is as follows:-
1, Pir Sadardin (s.a.) is already came.
2, Pir Hasan Kabirdin (s.a.) and pir Imamdin will come in future,
the question arise in my mind is how it is possible that any deceased person can come back? no matter he was pir or Imam or prophet?
3,If pir Hasan Kabirdin and Imamdin will he come back then when?
4, The twelver also believes that their Imam Mehdi will come back? Christian believes that Prophet Isa (s.a.) will come, Jews believes that prophet Moses (s.a.) will and Hindu believes that Nakalank will come and so on...almost all religion peoples believes that some one from their sect will come and destroy the devil forces, I don't have any objection for it but how that deceased prophets, pirs and Imam will come back? it is not possible in my understanding.
5, Do you think Twelver's Imam Mehdi still alive after almost more than 1000 years passed after his disappearance?
6, Do you think Prophet Isa and Moses (s.a.) will come back? even though they already passed away thousands years ago?
7, Does above verses may have any 'Ruhani" meaning?

mmomin14 · Post by **mmomin14** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:03 am

@agakhani
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i dont think this ginan has anything in meaninig to a return of a deceased Pir...its a prediction by Pir Sadardin
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@admin
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i agree that it may have been written in respect to Sayed Imamshah and not in context of puthiyo's (sattadhari) pir to succeed pir sadardin

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:43 am

i dont think this ginan has anything in meaninig to a return of a deceased Pir...its a prediction by Pir Sadardin........
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You need to learn Gujarati my young brother, whatever I translated above
is as per Gujarati dictionary and as per my knowledge, you may ask other Gujarati know-er and he/she will tell the same meaning,
it may be possible that the above verses have some kind Ruhani meaning which I don't know and that is what my question for ... but the word '' AAVAN HAARIA" Means will come that is true and correct brother.

The other questions has nothing to do with above ginanic verses and those questions are not related to any Ismaili ginans those questions were popes up in my mind after reading above ginanic verses that is true.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:23 pm

Pir Imamdin means Syed Imam Shah, who preached about Ismaili faith after Pir Hassan Kabirdin. There is also waez of Abu Ali missionary which explains this ginan in detail.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:06 am

Munir, I heard that waez many times, indeed it is good waez to listen if some one has interest in what will happen during the time of 'zahurat' but I think this young man has asked question about who succeeded as a pir after pir Hasan Kabirdin and answer is pir Tajdin but in my opinion he took wrong meaning or interpretation of this ginan , the topic of this ginan is about Zahurat not about who will be next pir after pir Hasan Kabirdin? as per my own interpretation ( I may be wrong) this whole ginan is related to 'ZAHURAT' it is nothing to do with piratan. It may possible that pir Sadardin might have thought that Pir Imamshah will be his successor for piratan because he was his eldest son but whom to give piratn was and still is in hand of Imam of the time and therefore imam Islamshah appointed pir Tajdin as pir!! it is also possible that this ginan may have some different meaning in Ruhani progress and pir might have thought that way and composed this ginan because after pir Sadardin and Pir Hasan Kabir din Imamshah has written many knowledgeable and informative gianns/granths/shahstra which are treasure of gold for Ruahaniyat ( Yogeshwar na ginan/Nakalanki Gita) in comparison with other pir after pir Hasan Kabirdin who knows? as per Sultan Mohd Saha's (s.a.) one farman, there are many interpretations of a single ginan, one interpret it different way the other one interpret it with different way; let me give you one quick example, one missionary interpreted one ginan in 14 different ways in presence of SMH but Mowla told him that none of his interpretations were right!!!

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:18 am

Thats correct. The meanings can be interpreted in different ways. I think the word Pir before Imamdin shall not be confused with. There is possibility that the term "Pir" before Imamdin might have been added later on (as mark of respect). As it was in the case of many other ginans. I mean to say Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin had composed many ginans when they were not Pir (though before being appointed as Pir, also they were highly elevated souls) Yet those Ginans addresses them as Pir. For example Pir Hassan Kabirdin composed granth Anant Akhado at the time, when his grandfather was Pir. Though he prepared granth before meeting Imam and presented it in form of Turban but later Pir Hassan edited his composition later to include his mulaqat with Imam.
So the word "Pir" before Imamdin might have been later added and the word was mean for the mark of respect. As certainly Syed Imam Shah did valuable and remarkable services for the cause of Ismailism.