Imam/creator discussion - answer here

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:33 am

GURU AAVYAA BEEJEE RAAT KE- GARBI NO.3, as shown on this site (and other sources), it says the Imam is the Creator. This is evident in many ginans and even in our Du'a. Also, no matter what we believe the term "mazhar" means or try to attribute it to reflections or anything, the essence of nur is the same so this interpretation is correct.

That is easy to understand when you delve deep in the concept of nur and the purity of the imams, and how they are the names of Allah etc.

But how are you supposed to explain this to the constant and closed-minded bashes by people of other faiths including Sunni Muslims?

For example, it's just impossible to explain when a Sunni quotes this verse from the Quran. You could go all day and try to explain the deepest ideas in our faith, but it's quite difficult to counter, or put at ease a conversation without appearing that you are commiting shirk even when you know you are not....

(btw I copied these off mostmerciful.com which I know is bull but is the easiest to just pull out similar challenges)

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 16 Surah Nahl verse 20-21: All the other beings, whom the people invoke with Allah, create nothing! Nay, they are themselves created! They are DEAD, not living, and they do not at all know themselves when they shall again be raised to life!

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 7 Surah Aaraf verse 190-196: They associate with Allah partners who do not create anything, but are themselves created; who cannot help them nor have the power (even) to help themselves! If you invite them to follow the Right Way, they will not follow you! It will be all the same for you whether you call them or keep silent. Those whom you invoke with Allah are MERE SERVANTS OF ALLAH LIKE YOU! Just invoke them, and if what you say of them be true, they will answer your prayers! Have they feet that they should walk with them? Or have they hands that they should hold with them? Or have they eyes that they should see with them? Or have they ears that they should hear with them? Tell them, O Mohammed, “Call up the partners you have set up, and then all of you sit down together and plot against me, and give me no respite. My Protector and Helper is Allah, Who has sent down this Book (Al Quran), and, it is He who protects the righteous people.”

Now I know this is when our own beliefs kick in, and our understanding of nur, plain and simple... But it gets to me that I can't explain properly.

Please refer me to another section of the site, but I couldn't find an article without searching for a while so please answer here if possible.

Thanks,

J

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:49 am

Jayv wrote: That is easy to understand when you delve deep in the concept of nur and the purity of the imams, and how they are the names of Allah etc.

But how are you supposed to explain this to the constant and closed-minded bashes by people of other faiths including Sunni Muslims?

J

I think you have to make a distinction between the esoteric and the exoteric aspects of our faith. It is perhaps not a good idea to discuss the deeper esoteric aspects of our faith with people who do not have the background. They will never accept them and hence it is futile. It is just sufficient to tell them that our interpretation is that the Prophet appointed Hazarat Ali to carry out the role of Ta'wil and Ta'lim after his death and that the this fuction continues hereditarily.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:20 am

For example, it's just impossible to explain when a Sunni quotes this verse from the Quran. You could go all day and try to explain the deepest ideas in our faith, but it's quite difficult to counter, or put at ease a conversation without appearing that you are commiting shirk even when you know you are not....

Finally !!!!!.......Im happy to see people waking up from their sleep

It is always problematic/impossible because the moment we say agakhan = creator/allah[swt], we loose the basic principles laid down by holy quran , 1st and the most important of which is belief in ONE GOD

Brother, spiritual/ material is the part of life but spiritually speaking even you have the NUR of allah[swt] in you which is your soul.....Tell me this brother what never dies and always finds its sustenance from allah[swt] ?? Its your soul

The day you die your body gets decomposed within hours after its cremated....what about you soul ??? Does the NUR of allah[swt] dies ?? ....No !!!!

The problem with us[ismailis] is that we love to give names or divinity to something which we follow for if we dont then nobody is interested to see the imam as a guide.

Always remember you can reach marifat when you have control over your body and soul.........your body is the mecca [physical ceremonial place- you see how its our duty to perform hajj etc etc which is all physical= body] where as its your mind[AKL/CENTER OF YOUR BODY] that is madina [spiritual valley where our prohet[saw] laid grounds of worship]

Inshort not now nor ever any ismaili can prove imam=allah[swt] from holy quran because its not our imam who said iam god ....its us who made him divine....for its ismailis who wanna restrict their AKL to that....just like for some hindus they see god in monkey, cow, snake and what not !!!

Its our mere belief....agakhan is not allah but servant/vicar/agent/representative of allah[swt] on earth.

There are people who'll tell you our faith is batini, brother do not be fooled by that for faith is neither batini or zaheri alone.......its both !!!

somebody rightly said so : “He is az-Zahir, who is felt through anything and He is al-Batin, who is not known through anything.”

Hope i answered your question

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:58 am

Shiraz,

Is not Jayv you? just little bit inquisitive cuz???

By the way Ismailis do not consider Mowlana Hazar Imam as a GOD, If any one consider him as a god then it is mistake (Astagafirullah)

Of course our Imam has Noor of God and we believe in 'NOOR' not the body of our Imam? I don't think he ever claimed as a God , He claims himself as living Imam and that is absolutely right.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:17 am

Shiraz,

Is not Jayv you? just little bit inquisitive cuz???

No JayV is not me

By the way Ismailis do not consider Mowlana Hazar Imam as a GOD, If any one consider him as a god then it is mistake (Astagafirullah)

Atleast we agree on something !!!!

Of course our Imam has Noor of God and we believe in 'NOOR' not the body of our Imam? I don't think he ever claimed as a God , He claims himself as living Imam and that is absolutely right.

And thats what I said !!....Its not us, its the blind worshippers who treat him like one !....Imam is a guide not god himself !!!

We all have NUR in us....moral of the story "BELIEVE IN YOURSELF"

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:41 am

If for you Imam is the body, obviously it can not be God. Only people who are confuse would think that a stone (black or white), a man or an animal is God.

However if you call Imam "The Light", then these limitations are foreign to the concept of Noor.

Admin

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:47 am

If for you Imam is the body, obviously it can not be God. Only people who are confuse would think that a stone (black or white), a man or an animal is God.

However if you call Imam "The Light", then these limitations are foreign to the concept of Noor.

Admin

Instead of twisting his simple question ,lets just make it very clear once and for all

Is AgaKhan [physically/spiritually] god ?? My answer = NO !!!...why because both the physical life [body] and spiritual life[soul] is god's gift and the moment you say this .....you're testifying that it is allah[swt] who created us or is the creator.

I wanna ask this question to you ADMIN bhai.....what according to you is the definition of LIGHT ??

GMR · Post by **GMR** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:12 pm

Very well and beautifully explained and briefed by bhai Shiraz and Agakhani.

Allah (SWT) says in the Holy Quran [kullu nafsun zaaiqatul maut = evey nafs will have to die]. In short every prophet, imam, birds, insects, livestock and everything that hold life will have to die one day, and these cannot be creator/god/allah/baghwan whatever you name it.

And what is Nur? Nur means light. This Nur differentiates between a prophet/imam and common man. A common man cannot hold Nur of Allah, whereas prophet/imam hold the Nur and, because of this Nur they are able to convey the message from God to common people. Otherwise the common men/people have no capacity to bear/receive this message directly from God. The incident of prophet Moses and forty (Qibtis=foes of prophet Moses and israilis) on the mountain of 'Toor' could be enough to cite here, where 40 men were burnt down to ashes and prophet Moses fell down and became unconcious because of Nur of Allah. Allah (SWT) only sent a ray of Nur on them on their (Qibtis) demand time and again to prophet Moses.

As far as exoteric and asoteric knowledge is concerned, brothers and sisters, it's not an easy thing that a person was born ismaili, he/she could claim and touch the height of Marifat. It could hardly be achieved after spending whole life in the way of Allah, His Messengers and His Imams through day and night Ibadat and good deeds.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:31 pm

I suggest you revisit the Surah Noor in the Quran, this is the way God has found to explain what is the LIGHT in simple terms. God knows better than me how to explain.

If after reflecting on Surah Noor, one is still confused, God had a complaint box where you could put your question but it looks like the complaint box can not be found anywhere at this time... I am still looking for it

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:10 pm

Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's brother, a pir, said in his book, the True Meaning of Religion, straight up, that the Imam is manifest Allah.

As well as in many ginans.

I know it depends on your understanding of light, but you're saying don't look physically and I am not. You are treating light as a physical concept. Light is Allah and because the Imam is the manifest light, he is Allah in essence right? Of course we all are, but I am speaking in terms that can help us grasp it better.

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:32 pm

By the way when I mean Imam is Allah, I mean esoterically. In the form of light.

Don't treat me like I'm dumb, but obviously we don't pray to the physical form of the Imam, but we do pray to the noor of Imamat which I believe is the same essence of Allah, therefore being Allah.

I encourage you to read The True Meaning of Religion with an open mind and don't throw my ideas away as they are trash or treat me like a hindu who thinks a cow is God.

What do we mean when we say the Imam is a manifest light (as said in the Quran). That means his soul which is created (I am obviously saying this in literal terms to help convey a message even though this is really not ever going to be understood without bandagi) is constantly in fanna filla with Allah, making his essence, the same as nur. That means the nur of Imamat is Allah.

If the Imam is a manifest light, and Allah IS the light of the heavens and the earth... Honestly, put two and two together.

I want to clarify again because you didn't seem to understand earlier: the Imam in the esoteric form is Allah. But obviously the physical isn't. That would be dumb and I know we are capable of more than that aren't we?

There are many ginans that refer to the Imam being Allah and I put forward this concept to explain it. (as well as the book I mentioned before written by Pir Shahbudin Shah al-Huseini)

Also in our Du'a in second part we say we only seek help from Allah. And the next sentence, literally, we seek help from Aly.

Why? Because the essence is the same.

It isn't shirk when you are saying they are one and the same. Allah is one, but I believe the Imam is the manifest qualities of Allah that we recite every day from the Quran because obviously Allah transcends qualities.

Don't think you can grasp Allah's essence, because if you can, it is the limit of how far your imagination can go, and Allah is infinite beyond that, so the Imam is the manifest qualities of the light.

Also, why would we then seek help of Aly for all of our difficulties, or give our hand to Aly which translates to Allah? Because esoterically they are one in the same.

In one of our ginans it does say we and everything else are God, but you shouldn't acknowledge this until indeed you know because of a point in bandagi.

Please let me know what you think brothers.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:33 am

ALL,

Interesting discussion going on this topic, so I thought I should write my opinion as well but in very short, so guys here it is:-

چلو بھی مان لیا کی امام میرے خدا نہیں، اورہمی اس بات کا کوئی گم نہیں"

"پر سچ بات تو یہ ہے کی وو میرے لئے الله اور خداسے کچھ کم نہیں

TRANSLITERATION IN ENGLISH:-

"CHALO BHAI MAAN LIYA KI IMAM MERE KHUDA NAHI,
AAUR MUJE IS BAAT KA KOI GAM NAHI,

PAR SACH BAAT TO YE HAI KI WOH MERE LIYE
ALLAH AAOUR KHUDA SE KUCHH KAM NAHI"

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:05 am

Can you tell me where it's from and what is the exact meaning?

I can only translate bits and pieces. (I am an 18 year old from Toronto learning my mother tongue now)

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:17 am

And what is Nur? Nur means light. This Nur differentiates between a prophet/imam and common man. A common man cannot hold Nur of Allah, whereas prophet/imam hold the Nur and, because of this Nur they are able to convey the message from God to common people. Otherwise the common men/people have no capacity to bear/receive this message directly from God. The incident of prophet Moses and forty (Qibtis=foes of prophet Moses and israilis) on the mountain of 'Toor' could be enough to cite here, where 40 men were burnt down to ashes and prophet Moses fell down and became unconcious because of Nur of Allah. Allah (SWT) only sent a ray of Nur on them on their (Qibtis) demand time and again to prophet Moses.

I love your comments GMR bhai but I must disagree with your above statement.....See the problem is .... things which have complete physical aspect we try to attach spirituality and to things that have spiritual aspect we tend to attach physicality.

Now do you know how big is mount SINAI ??

The higher you climb the mountain...the colder it gets !!.....So when H.musa[as] was passing by the valley he saw FIRE up in the mountains !!!...And since it was cold[as per quran] this is what H.musa[as] said to his family :

28:29 So after Moses fulfilled his obligation and was traveling with his family, he saw a fire on the slope of the mount. He said to his family: “Stay here, I have seen a fire, perhaps I can bring you from there some news or a burning piece of the fire so that you may be warmed.”

God knew the struggle that h.musa[as] was going through and not only did god spoke to h.musa[as] but also comforted h.musa[as] and his family by giving them warmth

Not only it was cold but also the tribe of h.musa[as] was hungry as well !!!.....The people started shouting at H.musa[as] and H.haroon[as] that while they were in egypt they used to eat full and find shelter but now that they are passing through this valley they're doomed.....and thats when allah[swt] said :

20:80 O Children of Israel, We have saved you from your enemy, and We summoned you at the right side of the mount, and We sent down to you manna and quail.

Manna : The substance miraculously supplied as food to the Israelites in the wilderness [Do not mistake this as ready made food, but instead seeds send down from the sky]

Exo 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Quail : Small, Plump Game Bird

Now let us talk about those who died after seeing allah[swt]......did they actually die ??

It is not that h.musa[as] wanted to see allah[swt] in person but it was his people who said they will not believe in whatever he says until they see allah[swt] in person.....so you should understand that it wasnt the prophet's[as] wish but the wish of his tribe

Quoting from Uyun Akhbar Al-Raza, Vol 1 Chapter

Al-Ma’mun said, “O son of the Prophet of God! How excellent! Let me know about the meaning of what the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, he said, ‘O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.’’ How could it be the case that Moses, the son of Imran (s), who is the interlocutor of God did not know that the Blessed the Sublime God is not visible and ask such a question?”

Al-Reza (s) said, “The fact is that Moses, the son of Imran (s), who is the interlocutor of God knows that the Sublime God is more majestic than to be seen by the human eyes. The Honorable the Exalted God spoke to him (s), ‘and made him draw near to Himself for mystic (converse).’ However, when Moses (s) returned to his people and informed them that the Honorable the Exalted God had spoken to him, ‘and made him draw near to Himself for mystic (converse)’, they told him, ‘…We shall never believe in thee…’ until we hear His Words just as you did. There were seven-hundred thousand people in his nation.

Moses (s) chose seventy-thousand of them. He then chose seven-thousand people from this seventy-thousand chosen ones. Finally, Moses (s) chose seventy of them to take along with him to meet His Lord. He went to Mount Sinai with them. He made them stay at the foot of the mountain. Moses climbed the mountain and asked the Sublime God to speak to him and make them hear His Words. Then the Sublime God spoke to him, and they heard His Words from the top, the bottom, the left, the right, from the back, and from the front. That was because the Honorable the Exalted God created His Words in the Tree and made the sound come out of the Tree to the extent that they heard it from all directions.

‘…We shall never believe in thee…’ that what we heard are God’s words ‘until we see Allah manifestly…’ When they said this haughty statement and became arrogant and tyrannical, God sent down upon them a thunderbolt which overtook them because of their transgression. They died. Then Moses (s) said, ‘O My Lord! How shall I answer the Children of Israel when I return to them and they say, ‘You took them along and killed them, for you were not truthful when you claimed that the Honorable the Exalted God had invited you to Himself for mystic (converse).’’ Then God brought them back to life and sent them along with Moses.

They said, ‘If you ask God to let you see him, He will fulfill your request. Then you can tell us how He looks so that we get to know him well.’ Moses (s) said, ‘O my people! The Sublime God cannot be perceived by the eyes. He has no quality (of being). Rather, He is recognized through His signs and is known through symbols. ‘When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said, ‘O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.’ Allah said, ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.’’ However, they said, ‘…We shall never believe in thee…’ until you ask Him.

Then Moses (s) said, ‘O Lord! You heard what the Children of Israel say. You know best what is good for them.’ Then God - the Exalted the Magnificent - revealed to him, ‘O Moses! Ask Me what they have asked you, for I will not hold you responsible for their ignorance. It was then that Moses (s) said, ‘…O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.’ Allah said, ‘By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place,’ (Moses (s) had by then climbed down the mountain), ‘then shalt thou see Me.’ Using one of His many Signs, ‘when his Lord manifested His Glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said, ‘Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance…’ Moses (s) meant ‘I will return from my state of ignorance of my people to the state of Your recognition, and I am the first to believe’ that You cannot be seen.

swoon = To be overwhelmed by ecstatic joy , fainting spell

So having said this :

1] people at that time were not convinced that h.musa[as] was a prophet sent by god

2] people were curious to see god by themselves but since their IMAN was not strong they couldnt understand his power

3] When the mountian burst open into flakes h.musa[as] was overwhelmed with joy because at that time he was immersed in love for allah[swt]

Nur = Radiant Light , light that is achieved when you do good....help others, find peace and become one with god = OUR GOAL

so anybody can possess NUR provided he struggles in a way god wants him/her to !

Hope i answered your question

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:28 am

I know it depends on your understanding of light, but you're saying don't look physically and I am not. You are treating light as a physical concept. Light is Allah and because the Imam is the manifest light, he is Allah in essence right? Of course we all are, but I am speaking in terms that can help us grasp it better.

You cannot and will not grasp it because you are attaching idolatry with the purest of all = allah[swt]

24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.

The referred verse stresses the point that it is in fact the belief in the existence of God that gives meaning and sense to all that enjoys existence. Without the belief in the existence of God, everything lacks meaning and purpose. The sentence "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" implies that it is the existence of God, as the ultimate planner and the creator which gives meaning and purpose to the physical universe that spreads around us. This belief brings them out of the darkness of doubts and skepticism into bright light. It is like the light provided by a lamp - secured against the winds by unblemished glass, which is clean as a shining star, increasing the brightness of the light - placed at a raised niche - spreading its light to the far off corners of the room. The lamp is burnt with the purest of oils taken from the best of trees raised at the most suitable of lands, which increases the brightness of the light. The purity of the oil is such that it would catch fire without even being fully ignited.

Belief in the existence of God enlightens the heart of the believer with a light that is pure, bright, beneficial and secure from all flickering. It is fully capable of fighting the onslaught of disbelief and the attacks of the Satan. It is not a light that enlightens the inner self of the believer only, but is one that benefits others as well. The true beneficiaries of this light are those, who have kept the inherent guidance that God had provided them safe and upright. Their inherent nature is like pure oil, which catches fire even without being fully ignited. Thus, for them, this light is in fact a "Light upon their existing light", which has increased the brightness of their hearts manifolds.

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:29 am

But the imam is the purest soul and constantly in fanafilla. that is oneness with god.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:52 am

It isn't shirk when you are saying they are one and the same. Allah is one, but I believe the Imam is the manifest qualities of Allah that we recite every day from the Quran because obviously Allah transcends qualities.

Don't think you can grasp Allah's essence, because if you can, it is the limit of how far your imagination can go, and Allah is infinite beyond that, so the Imam is the manifest qualities of the light.

Ok help with this now .....For you imams' NUR or whatever = allah[swt] as per you.....but in the very next line you're saying and i quote again

Don't think you can grasp Allah's essence, because if you can, it is the limit of how far your imagination can go, and Allah is infinite beyond that

How do you justify your stand where on one hand imam = allah[swt] and on other hand we cannot grasp allah's essence as allah's grace/power/might and so on is infinite

If allah is infinite then why enclose him in some finite bottle of imamat ??

Lemme make it even more easier for you

Allah[swt] = creator

Imam[as] = created

Nur = Allah's creation [for everything is allah's creation] and not allah[swt] himself because as you have said allah is infinite, hence everything we say or attach him with , he is above all !!!

Soul = Breathe in by allah[swt] himself in every single human being [ mentioned in quran]

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:01 am

INSHALLAH this will lead you in the right direction.

Written by PIR: Shihabu'd-din Shah Al-Husayni (the brother of our 48th imam and great uncle of Hazir Imam)

Allah guides to his light whom he wilst.

The rest of this book is posted on this very website for public viewing:

http://ismaili.net/Source/0693.html

If you do not understand it after reading this.... May Allah guide you.

6. (IMAM)

Now, with the help of God, I will tell you what has come down to us about

the higher religious wisdom, ma'rifat, from the great saints of the

religion.

One has to follow them in the questions of ma'rifat; and this is what

they said: "Do not discuss vainly the question of the Substance of God".

Now, brothers, summon all your intelligence, concentrate all your

attention, -and let [30] God help me to explain this; to you -to

understand this: it is an important and very difficult matter.

No one can dispute that there is a great difference between different

people with regard to their intellect, just as there is great difference

between them with regard to their appearance. You can see that some are

taller or shorter than others, some have darker or lighter complexions.

Just in the same way they differ in the principal and secondary features

of their character, as you may see. They are das different with regard

to their inner features as they differ in the outer form, -the outside

(zahir) always depends on the inside (batin). How is it possible to talk

to a child in the same way as one would talk to a clever adult? The child

will never have patience nor intelligence to listen to this, and to

understand this: "How can a jug comprise the sea?" And "one builds his

home to suit his taste".

It is owing to this difference of the mentality of different individuals

[31] that many hadiths which have come down to us, on this subject, are

so extremely difficult. None can understand them properly except a

prophet on his mission ( nabi-i mursal), or a cherubim (malaki muqarrab),

or a really faithful devotee (mu'min) whose heart has been tested by God

for its faith. If you try yourself in your hearts and your souls, then,

as is said, -"come through our door, if thou art a seeker after eternal

love".

It is prohibited in religion to meditate on the subject of the attributes

(sifat) of God. If you imagine something so lofty that you cannot think

of anything beyond it, this means that it is the limit of your own

fantasy, not that you have really attained some final idea:

"All that is beyond thy imagination,

Is merely the limit of thy fantasy, not God".

"Wisdom can attain a knowledge of His Substance

Only in the case if a piece of straw can sink to the bottom of the sea"

Attribute, or property (sifat) means something in any one that can be

noticed [32] and described as being attributed to the person. Thus you

can recognize one by this sign, as explained. And if you are ordered not

to meditate (abour the nature of God), it is in order that you should not

become confused, as, in any case, you are unable to know His properties.

You see that in reality people speaking about God (Haqq), attribute to

Him any such (perfections) as they can imagine. For instance, regarding

blindness as a defect, they say about God that He sees everything. They

regard stupidity as a defect, and thus say that God is Wise. Thus

whatever they find in themselves as a vice and defect, they attribute to

God a perfection opposite to that. Imami Sajjad (i.e. Zaynu'l-abidin)

says in a hadith, which he relates from the Prophet, that people became

too inquisitive towards the end of Muhammad's life, and then the chapter

of the Coran (CXIV) "Say: God is One" was revealed. All those things

that you attribute to God from your imagination come out your fantasy.

Most probably even animals create [33] their own God free from their own

defects, ascribing to Him (the opposite) perfections.

Imam Muhammad Baqir says that the tiny ant probably imagines his god as

having two stings, because it regards the possession of only one sting

as a defect.

If so, it is necessary (wajib) to follow those religious Leaders

(pishwayan), who simply say: "We are the properties of God". Realize,

brother, that it is they who see, they who listen. The ordinary mortals

are unable to do anything except obey orders. It is said: "who knows

me, knows God", -note this properly, brother. We need here a clear

example which should make it easy to understand this: -the light that

emanates from the lamp obviously is not the lamp itself; but if there

were no light, [34] would you know what a lamp is, and where it stands?

Thus it is (only) through the light that you can perceive the lamp, you

know the lamp from the light.

I will give you another example, still more obvious: whenever you want

to explain what is the sun, what can you do except simply show the sun?

The sun is the only example of its kind. Thus if you want to see the

sun, see itself:

"If you ask for a proof, do not disregard it".

Thus they, the Saints of God, are the manifest form of God (surati zahiri

Khuda). Facts contain indications, but people read about them, and do

not understand. They say: "blessing be on Thee, O shining image of God,

O Thou, the generous hand of God! O Thou, the blood of God (sic!), the

son of the blood of God (sic!)". Thus it is obvious that they are the

properties of God [35] and that you are ordered to know them, as

recognition of them exactly means the knowledge of God.

Then realize the meaning of the hadith in which it is said that any one

who dies without having known the Imam of his time, dies as an

unbeliever, or idolater. Who does not know his Imam, does not know God.

As we have seen, people are different, and it is with regard to the

difference of their mentality that any one talks to them in accordance

with their capacity of understanding. Thus it was said to some of them

that no eye can see Him, or that He is beyond comprehension even of the

wisest, just as He is invisible. It is simply because their capacity of

understanding does not grasp the truth. But that manifestation of the

Greatness and of the Perfection of God, i.e. the Commander of the

Faithful, "Ali, says: "I would never worship God if I had not seen Him".

And if you realize the difference between the intellects and

personalities [36] of different people, you may listen to some imbeciles

who, having no means to understand this, talk pretentiously about

ma'rifat, or the higher religious wisdom. It was said to them: O ye,

mud, mixed with mud, and never rising above mud, and with face covered

with mud, ye, whose nature is mud, who are born and living in mud, what

can you understand in the world of purity? Yes, the body of dust, which

in its every atom consists of dust, composed of dark and solid elements

(tira wa zulmani), even conceiving a very great idea, can only imagine

things that are connected with his body of dust, i.e. physical self.

Everything that he imagines above this, also belongs to the created

world, like himself. He cannot imagine or know anything beyond this.

Only those people who have purified their reason, heart, and

imagination, by a long struggle with their nafs, or lower self, may

attain more vision for their inner eye, may make their ears capable of

listening to what others do not hear, and may see, understand and hear

(what ordinary people cannot). How can one [37] say things to

everybody, and how can they all listen to, see, and understand

everything? Only those can do this who could witness this by the "eye of

Truth".

What may be a satisfactory attainment for an ordinary man, and what may

be his pride, may be a poor achievement for others. It is said that what

may be acceptable from the good, may be regarded as a sin when done by

the chosen ones. People of no spiritual vision are quite virtuous when

they merely attest the existence of God, and (life after) death. But

this is entirely insufficient, and even sinful, when those who possess

the higher religious knowledge (ma'rifat), are concerned. Just as when a

baby does something, it may be very clever for its age, and quite natural

to it. But it would be quite natural to it. But it would be quite a

different matter if an adult does the same thing, -his action surely will

appear utterly ridiculous and stupid.

Imam Husayn in one of his prayers says: "O, Creator, is there any one

manifest by the side of Thee [38] who should make Thee manifest? How can

Thou be hidden so that Thou shouldst need some special proof of Thy

existence? How canst Thow be so distant from man that now people should

call me to Thee, and try to make me to attain Thy presence? Let every

eye be blind that cannot see Thee! Ruined be the capital in the trade of

the man who, owing to his own selfishness, has not given in his heart a

place and attention to his Friend."

Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true

that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes",

-said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His

slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not

you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord,

I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy

authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because

people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding

this as impiety (kufr)".

Seeing with one's heart is different from seeing with one's eyes. Know,

brother, that his matter was always kept hidden from the unreliable

people, and only a few trusted ones were admitted to learn it. And if

one who is in possession of the Truth (ahli haqiqat) were found

somewhere, the people would abuse him, or ridicule him. This is because,

as we said above, the ears of people have become deaf, and the tongue of

persuasion has become silent.

Imam Zaynu'l-abidin, explaining a verse of poetry, says: "I always hide

the precious jewel of my knowledge because the ignorant do not see or

recognize the truth-they are incapable of realizing its value. In the

past my grandfather Abu'l-Hasan (i.e. 'Ali ibn Abi Talib) possessed this

knowledge, but kept It hidden, and bequeathed this to Imam Husayn, and

before him to Imam Hasan, [40] to keep it secret. There are many

precious and pure jewels of knowledge, but if I devulge them I may be

charged with idolatry. Perhaps some fanatics may even attempt to murder

me, thus committing a heinous crime. They may murder me under the

impression that they are doing a good thing."

The Commander of the Faithful (Ali ibn Abi Talib) said: "I know many

things which, if divulged, would appear to you so exciting that they

would stir you like a lose rope, which is lowered into a deep well, stirs

water in it, yet fails to reach its bottom".

He added: "I treated the people of this world as a bird that follows a

flight of other birds: started when all [41] started, flew in a

formation so that none obstructed the other". But consider what he

suffered in spite of all this from the people of his time! and yet in

spite of his concealment of his knowledge, it spread as you may see as

the light of Divine greatness and glory. This matter demands much

consideration.

If you consider this matter dispassionately, and think over it properly,

you will find a strange thing. The knowledge was concealed by himself

(i.e. by 'Ali) and his descendants: his supporters, even if they could

learn anything, would keep it secret from fear of molestation at the

hands of his enemies; and his enemies, even if they could learn anything,

would keep it secret from hatred and envy. Yet in spite of all this

concealment the mystery became known from the heaven to the earth! Where

is the eye which is so blind as to be unable to see this, to realize

this, and to know this.

Brothers, I do not know what was this Manifestation, and how it came into

existence. [42] O our Lord, O Ultimate Cause of Creation, O final

Purpose of Creation, -what wert Thou, O impenetrable Mystery? How didst

Thou bring Thyself into existence? Thou, Light of Truth, how didst

Thou reveal Thyself in such a way that every thought in the world became

astounded! What substance dost Thou manifest that from Thy emanations

the voice of the praising angels was created from the atoms of the

limitless space! Blessed be Thou, O Eternal Beauty! Blessed be Thou,

who hast concealed Thyself, and yet art so universally apparent! So much

that many called Thee God! Verily, if Thou wouldst lift this veil from

Thyself, even the eyes of the blind would be opened, and they would

become wizards by this light. How then would humanity find Thee, how

could they see, and what should they say!

Though poets are generally very blind, yet there are some corners under

the Divine Throne to which the tongue of poets is the key. This is the

meaning of the hadith in which it is said that some topics are suitable

[43] subjects of their fantasy.

Brother, this instructive treatise is written by me for the people who

possess the faith. I have no other purpose except to show them the right

path. I do not address it except to the people who follow Truth (ahli

Haqq). If my forefathers had not spoken addressing the believers in

Truth (ahli Haqq), I would not address them also. But as my forefathers

(the blessing of God be upon them!) did so, so I also had to speak. I do

not argue with any one about the truth of his religious persuasion, -let

everyone believe in what he likes.

God the Almighty says: "Verily God is not dependent on the world", i.e.

He is not in need of anything from His creatures. And if they have no

need of Him, -it is their own business.

Our Lord (i.e. 'Ali ibn Abi Talib) says that the Prophet had delivered

his message, and, being entrusted with the outer side of religion (zahir)

he carried on the war for religion (jihad). "And I (i.e. Mawla 'Ali) am

concerned with the batin, or the deeper meaning of religion." He

explained the meaning of batin in different ways. [44] As is found in

the well-known tradition, -"if Abu Dharr would know what is in the heart

of Salman, he would regard him as an unbeliever', or, as is said in

another place, - he would kill him. It suffices to know that in every

epoch or a (millennial) period of time there is, and always was a

manifestation of the Deity, from the time of Adam, and even before Adam,

and till the time of the Final Prophet (i.e. Muhammad). It is present

even now in the world, as it was said to you. Only the accursed ones and

the devils posing as pious men strictly attached to religion, always

prevent people from seeing this, misleading them from the right path, and

dooming them to damnation.

Brother, to walk by circuitous paths (often) means not to reach the

destination. whoever deviates from the straight road, never reaches his

aim. It is the same whether he deviates from it for the distance of many

thousand years, from its first station, or he abandons it later on, and

strays from it. People are different in their destinty: [45] some of

them do not strike the right road at all, others go along it for a

distance, and then stop as the lame. The Jews stopped on it, being

persuaded by their religious leaders who were concerned only with their

own material advantage. They revealed some knowledge, but later on they

misled the people from the road, and never struck it again. The

Christians also erred in their way, and remained behind.

If you look properly, you will see that every one was misled both by the

incorrectness of religion, but by the ill-will of the lovers of material

pleasures. These unfortunate people strayed, not knowing what was the

purpose of creation, who they were themselves, from where they came, and

where they had to go.

The Arabian Hashmite Prophet (God bless him and his posterity) said that

his successors, the members of his family (ahli Bayt), cannot be

separated from the Coran which is (the book) showing the difference

between what is right (haqq) and what is wrong (batil); by these his

people may return to him, at the tank of Kawthar. He said: [46] "And

these two sacred and pure things I leave amongst you as a security. So

long as you cling to these, you will never be lost on you way after me."

But in spite of this commandment of the Prophet the selfish people

became preoccupied with other matters, forgetting all about the command

concerning the 'close relatives', 'itrat, of the Apostle of God, straying

away from the right path and falling for ever into the pit of temptations

and depravity. They did not realize whose manifestations were Adam and

the other Prophets, and for what purpose they were sent. They followed

their way blindly, and lost it ultimately, thus missing their

destination.

This is why it is said: "I was hidden with all the Prophets, because the

world was not yet ready. But now that the world is prepared, and the

people are capable of understanding, I became apparent with Muhammad."

O God, my purpose is to express myself in such a way that my words should

be clear and easy to understand, concisely and plausibly conveying my

meaning. I am afraid [47] that this subject may be somewhat long to deal

with. Because even if I write on it till the day of the Resurrection,

how can I do justice to a subject of such importance?

Do understand that the Word of God (kalima'i Haqq) is only one. Open

your ears and eyes, and then you will be able to understand not only a

single book, but thousands of books.

Ye who are in love with the Truth! Only out of affection for you did I

begin speaking to you, praying for His help! Look at the sun, the moon,

and the stars which continuously move in their eternal paths; the day

goes, and the night arrives, and again the morning dawns, and evening

descends; the world becomes old, and then revives; those who must come,

come, and pass on, and things that did not exist come into existence.

Every day new workers come to the task regardless of how many of them

were not there, and come but to go again.

If it were destined that a Manifestation (zahur) of the Divine Substance

should take place at some time, what should be the fault of those who

were not yet born at that time? [48] Or of those who lived befor it, or

did not recognize it? What have they to do, and how can people find the

way of Truth, how can they follow it?

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:43 am

So brother, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts, although my conviction is pure.

If a pir says that the Imam is the Manifestation of Allah, we must notice that he does not mean this in the physical sense, because the outer image is like the rest of us.

But the nur IS Allah.

Khudahafiz.

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:52 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
I know it depends on your understanding of light, but you're saying don't look physically and I am not. You are treating light as a physical concept. Light is Allah and because the Imam is the manifest light, he is Allah in essence right? Of course we all are, but I am speaking in terms that can help us grasp it better.
You cannot and will not grasp it because you are attaching idolatry with the purest of all = allah[swt]

24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.

The referred verse stresses the point that it is in fact the belief in the existence of God that gives meaning and sense to all that enjoys existence. Without the belief in the existence of God, everything lacks meaning and purpose. The sentence "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" implies that it is the existence of God, as the ultimate planner and the creator which gives meaning and purpose to the physical universe that spreads around us. This belief brings them out of the darkness of doubts and skepticism into bright light. It is like the light provided by a lamp - secured against the winds by unblemished glass, which is clean as a shining star, increasing the brightness of the light - placed at a raised niche - spreading its light to the far off corners of the room. The lamp is burnt with the purest of oils taken from the best of trees raised at the most suitable of lands, which increases the brightness of the light. The purity of the oil is such that it would catch fire without even being fully ignited.

Belief in the existence of God enlightens the heart of the believer with a light that is pure, bright, beneficial and secure from all flickering. It is fully capable of fighting the onslaught of disbelief and the attacks of the Satan. It is not a light that enlightens the inner self of the believer only, but is one that benefits others as well. The true beneficiaries of this light are those, who have kept the inherent guidance that God had provided them safe and upright. Their inherent nature is like pure oil, which catches fire even without being fully ignited. Thus, for them, this light is in fact a "Light upon their existing light", which has increased the brightness of their hearts manifolds.

Plagiarism is a crime my friend. How many times do I have to remind you. If you quote anything from the internet, please disclose the source or one day you will get in a lot of trouble.

Anyway, Moiz Amjad failed miserably in his attempt to explain the verses of Surah Noor and you failed even more miserably by copy/pasting his answer here as your own understanding. Try again!

Here is the website you got the above from and posted as your own.

FROM ADMIN

I have deleted the link. No need to send there. a simple search on google or yahoo can confirm the source of this article anyway.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:05 am

FROM ADMIN

I have deleted the link. No need to send there. a simple search on google or yahoo can confirm the source of this article anyway.

Mucho Gracias Admin !!

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:57 pm

Please tell me what you think of what the pir said, as I posted above.

I'm not trying to fuel argument, I just want to know so that I can better my own debates in the future.

Thanks,

J

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:37 am

Please tell me what you think of what the pir said, as I posted above.

I'm not trying to fuel argument, I just want to know so that I can better my own debates in the future.

JayV...your name reminds me of a very old friend of mine ....his name was amirali virani...but we used to call him JayV , unfortunately he committed suicide last year

Anyways coming back to the topic , JayV ...The best solution to your question is that you have both the holy quran and the ginans of alllllll the pirs side by side....match the ginan if you could with the verses of holy quran.....Not only would you find your answer in that but it shall also help you in controlling and increasing your center

PS- Please make sure that you do not read the quran as it is translated....the best source to read quran with its exact meaning would be www.quranexplorer.com

Good luck brother !!

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:08 pm

Viru master...please go and read the quran and you will certainly find corroborative evidence....

Islam has FOUR dimensions or level....NOT just one as literalist like you seem to think ...there are FOUR Rivers in paradise also mentioned in the quran also..

According to the Ginans, the Imam is the source of guidance for mankind. He shows the right path, saves his followers from ignorance and acts as a Divine Light in the darkness. Thus it is said:

Murshid diwa hai Joog-ma,
jo aan dikhave ser-re;
E baatt bahot rariyamani,
jiya(n) chorasi nahi(n) fer-re [1]

Translation:

In this world the Master is the Light
who enlightens the Spiritual Path;
the Way is most wonderful
on which there is no failure.

And,

Nish andhari Gur chand-roora huwa;
Jot ahe Gur deevo, ho jire bhai [2]

Translation:

In the dark night of ignorance, the Master spreads the Light of Guidance like a moon;
Indeed, O brother! The Master is the Bright Lamp.

The verses quoted show that the Imam gives Divine Guidance. He is like a Light in the darkness and shows the travelers their way.

At the same time, the Pirs explain that the Imam is also the Vicegerent of God and Proof of God.

Noor Khalifa is joog mahe(n) aviya,
Ta(n)ki amar Jot likhani-ji [4]

Translation:

O brother! The Vicegerent of God has come in this world
and his Light has been made eternal.

And,

Qudrat apni zahir kidhi,
Pragatiya deen ka Imam [5]

Translation:

God revealed His nature
and with it manifested the Imam of the Faith.

Since the Imam is manifest in the world, it becomes necessary that he, as Proof of God, is sought out as mentioned in the following verse:

Pir Hassan Shah Ginan sunaya,
Jene dhoondiya tene Shah paya [6]

Translation:

Pir Hassan Shah says in the Ginan:
‘He who seeks will find the Imam.’

Being a Proof (hujjat) of God, everything (all knowledge) has been vouchsafed in the Imam as declared in the Qur’anic verse:

And we have vested the knowledge of everything in the Manifest Imam (Sura 36, Ayat 12).

The Pir speaks about this in the following verse:

After the recognition of the Imam, obedience to him but follows naturally. This is emphasised in the Ginan thus:

Eji karo jo Gur farmave
Ta thi darshan Piya ka paave [8]

Translation:

Do whatever the Master commands,
so that you could be blessed with the vision of your Beloved.

And,

Eji Partak Patra-ne parkhi-ne,
Preme poojo ne pai,
Chaoud bhavan-no e dhani
Parghat chhe joog ma(n)he [9]

Translation:

Recognise and obey him (who is the Bearer of Divine Light)
Love and submit yourself to him,he who is manifest on this earth.

Obedience to the Imam leads one to salvation. (Sura Fateha is conclusive in this regard..)...muslims recite it daily but do not know what it means...they are like robots....Intoxicated by their own ignorance and thus "drunk" !

One who obeys devotedly succeeds in reaching the Divine, and one who turns away from the Imam goes astray as narrated in the following verse:

Hazar Jomo chhe jiwo no datar,
Tene tamey sahi kari manjo nar ne naar;
E Nur dekhi bhulshe je.
Ghor andhari ma(n) pursey te [10]

Translation:

The Imam is the Giver of salvation to the souls
so have true faith in him, 0 men and women!
He who turns away from His Light knowingly,
will find himself in total darkness.

The key points that emerge are as follows:

(a) Imam is the Source for Divine Guidance and the presence of an Imam on this earth is necessary for its existence.

(b) The Imam is to be sought for and obedience and submission to him is necessary for understanding true Divine Knowledge and Divine Mysteries.

(c) The guidance provided by the Imam in his capacity as the Vicegerent of God and Proof of God represents the True Guidance of Allah.

(d) Salvation lies in the hands of the Imam....and anyone whod dies without recognizing his or her Imam of the time dies the death of a pervert !!!

And frankly if anyone says there is no evidence of this in the Quran then it is clear the guy is ignorant and a con artist who is peddling his idiosyncracies only...

Oh, where is your God-spark—the signet divine—
The freedom of soul, Immortality's print?

Most are tyrants and others are slaves, bound in one deadly
twine:...only a few may stride over the earth..but Millions are
just pawns like Viru master!

Oh, when cometh Liberty's world ..there were those who waiteth with eager wings for the dawn...

False Priest Viru, dare ye say 'tis the will of God, (And veil Prophet's message in dark sophistry,)...Just so that that these millions of "paupers" should bow to the sod?

Up, up, trampled hearts! it's a lie, it's a lie!

They may carve the "State" and "Altar" the TEXTS in characters

But Tyranny's symbols are ceasing to win !

Be stirring, O People! the actual scroll is unfolden as yet —
Wait until the QAIM rises and reads it...Bright, bright, be the deeds ye emblazon therein!

Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit...now that is the difference between the followers of Yazidi and the followers of Imam e Zamana !

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Word of God: ... For the ITRAT, their delight is in the law of the LORD; and in His law doth they meditate day and night.

And they shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth their fruit in every season; the leaves also shall not wither; and whatsoever they do shall prosper.

And so the divine ordinance is indeed truthful because the Imams serve only Allah...

Even Kerbala has saved Islam from the Usurpers and the Munafiqun who would have otherwise destroyed it like some of them still are trying to do but Allah will keep on "perfecting" HIS Light !....

And so it has since that point onwards Glorified the Islam Muhamad (saw) brought and it is still vibrant and alive !

Those that Imam Ali and Hussain have planted shall flourish in the courts of our Universal God who speaks all languages - Not just arabic !!!

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law of Iblis or their children.

Prophets and the Rightful Imams are the true drink of kausar... Every branch in them beareth fruit and he taketh NOT away... he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in HIM thro' them !!! and I in You and You and I as there exists no duality !.

As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abideth in the Kausar.. no more can ye, except ye abide in HIM thro' them... They are the kausar.. ye are the branches: He that abideth in HIM thro them will get salvation... and they bringeth forth much fruit: for without them ye can do nothing.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous for you... but grievous: nevertheless afterward it will yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them who follow ..and those who refuse will face a deluge and perish.

I do not think much of a conversion where it does not touch a man’s
substance; and those people who pretend to be God's people, and yet live only for themselves, and do nothing for Him or for his Religion but give but only a kind of sorry evidence of having been born again.

Let us learn then, from the analogy of nature, the great lesson, that to get, we must give.... that to accumulate, we must scatter.... that to make ourselves happy, we must make others happy.... and that to get good and become spiritually vigorous, we must do good, and seek the spiritual good of others....and so what has your own religion taught you ?

There is not a flower that blooms but its very sweetness lies in its shedding, its fragrance ,in the air. ...Now understand the Imam for the sake of your own soul !

All the rivers run into the sea, the sea feeds the clouds, the
clouds empty out their treasures, the earth gives back the rain in fertility, and so it is an endless chain of giving generosity.

Generosity reigns supreme in nature. ... sacrifice was necessary thus ! The Imams had to spill their Holy blood ! Yes! indeed it was a divine ordinance (Hukm)....The Munafiqun had Hijacked Islam !

There is nothing in this world but lives by giving, except a covetous man, and such a man is a piece of grit in the machinery; he is out of gear with the universe.

Man is a wheel running in the opposite direction to the wheels of God’s great engine. He is a jibbing horse in the team.

He is one that will not do what all the forces of the world beside
are doing.

He is a monster; he is not fit for this world at all.

He has not realised the motion of the spheres. He keeps not step with the march of the ages. He is out of date; he is out of place; he is out of God’s order altogether.

But the cheerful giver is marching to the music of the spheres. He is in order with God’s great natural laws, and God therefore loveth him, since he sees his own work in him.

Passion seldom gives so acceptably as principle.

God will often look upon our work in giving, not according to how much we give, but I think that the Lord’s rule is to take notice of how much we have left.

That woman who gave all her living, gave more than all the rich men gave, because she had nothing left.

It was but two mites that make a farthing; but then it was all her living;
and so she goes into the front rank.

The Sheikh has given a thousand pounds, and we
are very much obliged to him. He must go into the back rank, for all that; the Mullahs and Sheikhs sitting on the black gold have so much left. ..and majority of muslims are poor and disenfranchised..

Our gifts are not to be measured by the amount we contribute, the colourful robes we wear...or the big houses we live in...or the flashy cars we drive.....or the barks we make on the net.... but by the surplus kept in our own hand of our own wealth which we have to share with all.

We want personal consecration.

I have heard that word pronounced “purse-and-all
consecration,” a most excellent pronunciation certainly.

He who loves Muhamad (saw) and Allah consecrates to Muhamad (saw) and his noble family all that he has, and feels it a delight that he may lay anything at their feet of him and they who laid down their lives for us.

Within the core of the molecules and atoms lies the essential energy and this is then the spiritual light !

It is either "manifest" to our own senses or isn't !

If it is then it tends to take a material form because we can only relate to it accordingly as we live in a material form...

But the truth is to experience the deep and mysterious origins...outside the scope of the literalist and the mullahs....it comes with certain level of self realization....did anyone ever understand what Allah says that HE is more near to us than our own jugular veins ?

The "inner" and the "Outer" are but a single entity !

When molecules and atoms of the inner world become transformed into light, the components of the external becomes transformed and the resultant "manifestation" is either timeless or fathomless..

When this occurs our own thoughts which are rigid looking are proven as being simply illusionary and then one only sees the illumination itself of the Light !

Until then all else is rooted in man's own imagination and his will also subsides into his own imagination....man tries to perceive God - and partners numerous attributes with HIM....that is shirk ! for HE the Supreme ONE stands alone and is UNIQUE !!!

There is always the active and the passive...iron as we know is a concrete lifeless matter and yet within it is hidden (in a passive state) a life with it's own nuclear energy...it is neither felt nor visible to the eye...or to the senses...

Now bring the same Iron into contact with the Fire....what happens? it starts to get hot and then red hot...and this then is the "manifestation" of the Iron's power....now understand the analogy...and ignore the duffers in town !

Zinat Khan

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:24 am

Allah is very clear..."If they tread the straight path WE shall give them to drink of water in abundance.."(Sura 72:verse 16).....

The pure and holy drink is the water of Kausar !!!! Metaphorically the wine means just this !!! The water of Shifa !!!!

The truth mixes the tangibles with the intangibles and makes everything a symbol (mamthoul) and also an example (mathal) and then it is "apparent".....Apparent means NOT in hiding !!!..the Imam is the self disclosure and so there must always be a relativity !

Mullahs and maulvis are NOT this relativity....Follow what Allah has sent down !!! NOT conjectures and half truths !

The "Straight Path" are the Manifest Imams from the pure progeny of the Holy Prophet and whoseover holds to the two precious things i.e. the Quran and the Ahl al Bayt will also enjoy the abundance of the drink at the pool but if they haven't enjoyed the contingent abundance of the posterity of the prophet then it becomes a question mark?

Now recitation of the GINANS does find corroborative evidence in the Quran....the Universal God speaks all languages....Islam has FOUR dimensions or levels....Four Rivers !!!!

Now here are the ayats which support the recitations of Ginans and also Ginans prove that Ismailism is NOT a recently invented faith nor the early Aga Khans were Asnasherias as falsely claimed and GINANS were instrumental in proving Ismailism in the famous Haji Bibi case....that is why Maherally does NOT like Ginans.....they prove how wrong he is in all his derogatory assertions...

In actuality Ginans are not only being taught but also recited...quran supports the recitation of hymns...go and read the quran !...and also :...

" Pir Shams is acclaimed as a great preacher and composed many Ginans in different Indian dialects.

020.130
YUSUFALI: Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

050.039

PICKTHAL: Therefor (O Muhammad) bear with what they say, and hymn the praise of thy Lord before the rising and before the setting of the sun;
SHAKIR: Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.

(See even the Prophet was asked by Allah to sing !!!!)

050.040

PICKTHAL: And in the night-time hymn His praise, and after the (prescribed) prostrations.
SHAKIR: And glorify Him in the night and after the prayers.

Lots of evidence in the quran....lots !!!

Unfortunately you do not know the quran !! Now that is the reality and ismailis know more than you folks....after all empty vessels do make the most noise ! don't they?

Pir's local disciples had received the first hand marrow of his teachings in few places, and transformed them creatively into the ginanic form.

These are the rich reservoir of religious teachings and great treasure house of Sufi thought giving a very comprehensive idea of the prodigality of Sufi symbolism.

He used with supreme skill the languages of the country folk and employed them to interpret ideas of natural beauty and of religious philosophy.

(whilst your ancestors who also were Hindus were brutally converted by the sword of your Aboos who invaded India, but the Ismaili Pirs used persuasive methods to spread Islam)

In fact, Pir Shams was a man steeped in an understanding of the mystical teaching of Islam.

The recent diligent research has brought to light that he was the most earliest, rather the first Punjabi poet, and also made rich contribution in the growth of Urdu language during its infancy.

He had a faculty of expressing the truth in the local languages with appropriate turn of phrase and picturesque metaphor.

052.048
YUSUFALI: Now await in patience the command of thy Lord: for verily thou art in Our eyes: and celebrate the praises of thy Lord the while thou standest forth,
PICKTHAL: So wait patiently (O Muhammad) for thy Lord's decree, for surely thou art in Our sight; and hymn the praise of thy Lord when thou uprisest,
SHAKIR: And wait patiently for the judgment of your Lord, for surely you are before Our eyes, and sing the praise of your Lord when you rise;

052.049
YUSUFALI: And for part of the night also praise thou Him,- and at the retreat of the stars!
PICKTHAL: And in the night-time also hymn His praise, and at the setting of the stars.
SHAKIR: And in the night, give Him glory too, and at the setting of the stars.

040.055

PICKTHAL: Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord at fall of night and in the early hours.
SHAKIR: Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true; and ask protection for your fault and sing the praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.

And so who says that the inner meanings and the Tawil of the Quran and the Ginanic literature, has no syncronization or harmony?

Ignorance is the worst kind of terrorism !

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Imam/creator discussion - answer here

Imam/creator discussion - answer here

Re: Imam/creator discussion - answer here