I read an interesting article in one magazine, and again today in "THE NEWYORK TIMES"
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/04/scien ... sec=health
According above newspaper and that magazine, some birds and fish can change their sex whenever they thing it necessary to survive and give more birth to babies, for example Reef Fish, Golden Pheasant hen, peahen, e.t.c.
My question to scholars.
1, How can this happen when only God has the authority and power to give gender/sex as we all heard and beleive? i.e. give birth as male or female is totaly in hand of Allah!!! Now if this is true than why and how this possible that some fish and some birds can change their gender by themselve? is this not amazine? is this not an atheism? does not it proove that there is no god any where?
2,Why boys or girls can not change their sex by themeselve? and other species can?
3,Is this not against the nature?
Sex change by Fish/Birds prooves, there is no God anywhere!!
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
[51:49] And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.
In this Noble Verse, we see Allah Almighty Declaring that of everything that He created, He Created pairs or two kinds for them. This Noble Verse does not speak about sexual reproduction. It clearly and indisputably Says that of every kind of creation out there, two kinds of this creation/species exist. To us, we might think of them as males and females, but this is not always correct, for there are asexual (sexless) creations, such as the Angels, that Allah Almighty mentioned in the Glorious Quran:
"Or that We created the angels female, and they are witnesses (thereto)? (The Noble Quran, 37:150)"
"And they make into females angels who themselves serve God. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account! (The Noble Quran, 43:19)"
"Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names. (The Noble Quran, 53:27)"
So what does "everything" then mean in Noble Verse 51:49? If Angels are excluded, then obviously, "everything" here could not be applied to all of the Creations of Allah Almighty. So to me, this Noble Verse is speaking about the things that are created from dust, like us humans, and the things that exist on planet earth and other similar planets. This is further supported in the following Noble Verses:
[21:30] Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Both the Jinns/Angels are made from Fire/Light respectively
back to your westernised question, well my brother these special species are called HERMAPHRODITES which are those that have both the male and female organs and can reproduce by themselves due to those organs.
Certainly, these species do not contradict at all the Glorious Quran. On the contrary, they further prove Allah Almighty's Divine Claims, because here we have a group of species that still need to reproduce by having the pairs in them. Yes, it would be one specie reproducing by itself, assuming that this is scientifically accurate to begin with, since much of these studies are still unconfirmed theories, as shown below, especially in the microscopic world, but be as it may, each specie in this group, nonetheless:
Is still a representation of the pairs. It could be one or the other or both.
Wouldn't be able to reproduce if it didn't have those two organs in it.
Still produces both males and females, as further shown below.
Therefore, this group of species certainly testifies to the Divine Miracle of the Glorious Quran, because the pairs exist among them
now lemme divert your mind onto other creation of allah[swt] called " Parthenogenesis " which are asexual or sexless
"Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male. In plants, parthenogenesis means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg cell, and is a component process of apomixis. The offspring produced by parthenogenesis are always female in species that use the XY sex-determination system.
Parthenogenesis occurs naturally in some invertebrate animal species (e.g. water fleas, aphids, nematodes, some bees, some Phasmida, some scorpion species, and parasitic wasps), and vertebrates (e.g. some reptiles, fish, and very rarely birds and sharks) and this type of reproduction has been induced artificially in other species.
Parthenogenesis is seen to occur naturally in aphids, Daphnia, rotifers, nematodes and some other invertebrates, as well as in many plants. Komodo dragons and the hammerhead- and blacktip sharks have recently been added to the list of vertebrates—along with several genera of fish, amphibians, and reptiles—that exhibit differing forms of asexual reproduction, including true parthenogenesis, gynogenesis, and hybridogenesis (an incomplete form of parthenogenesis). As with all types of asexual reproduction, there are both costs (low genetic diversity and therefore susceptibility to adverse mutations that might occur) and benefits (reproduction without the need for a male) associated with parthenogenesis.
The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as the XY sex-determination system), but they will be male if two like chromosomes determine the male sex (such as the ZW sex-determination system), because the process involves the inheritance and subsequent duplication of only a single sex chromosome. The offspring may be capable of sexual reproduction, if this mode exists in the species. In many cases, parthenogenesis occurs when one gender (typically the male) is unavailable in the general vicinity. Once males are again available, the parthenogenesis-created females would be capable of mating with the males and creating normal offspring."
As we clearly and indisputably see, the scientists themselves:
1- Never unlocked all of the deep secrets of how these animals truly reproduce.
2- Are unsure of how exactly the reproduction occurs with these species.
3- These species are NOT ASEXUAL because they still do produce males and females as the red quotes above clearly state.
4- The scientists claims are no more than speculations at best! They are uncertainties and doubts; unconfirmed science.
Therefore, to use this bogus nonsense against Islam and against Allah Almighty is not acceptable. The scientists seem to have yet still to scratch the surface of unlocking the deep secretes of how these animals truly reproduce. All they have right now are unconfirmed and uncertain speculations, statements and theories. But in all cases, we still have the male and female reproductions among these species! So yes, the pairs are still there in these communities. A single specie of them is still either a male or female according even to those scientists. It is not a true asexual specie, and the scientists themselves are clearly uncertain about what to make of these species.
Hope i answered your question
[/b]
In this Noble Verse, we see Allah Almighty Declaring that of everything that He created, He Created pairs or two kinds for them. This Noble Verse does not speak about sexual reproduction. It clearly and indisputably Says that of every kind of creation out there, two kinds of this creation/species exist. To us, we might think of them as males and females, but this is not always correct, for there are asexual (sexless) creations, such as the Angels, that Allah Almighty mentioned in the Glorious Quran:
"Or that We created the angels female, and they are witnesses (thereto)? (The Noble Quran, 37:150)"
"And they make into females angels who themselves serve God. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account! (The Noble Quran, 43:19)"
"Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names. (The Noble Quran, 53:27)"
So what does "everything" then mean in Noble Verse 51:49? If Angels are excluded, then obviously, "everything" here could not be applied to all of the Creations of Allah Almighty. So to me, this Noble Verse is speaking about the things that are created from dust, like us humans, and the things that exist on planet earth and other similar planets. This is further supported in the following Noble Verses:
[21:30] Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Both the Jinns/Angels are made from Fire/Light respectively
back to your westernised question, well my brother these special species are called HERMAPHRODITES which are those that have both the male and female organs and can reproduce by themselves due to those organs.
Certainly, these species do not contradict at all the Glorious Quran. On the contrary, they further prove Allah Almighty's Divine Claims, because here we have a group of species that still need to reproduce by having the pairs in them. Yes, it would be one specie reproducing by itself, assuming that this is scientifically accurate to begin with, since much of these studies are still unconfirmed theories, as shown below, especially in the microscopic world, but be as it may, each specie in this group, nonetheless:
Is still a representation of the pairs. It could be one or the other or both.
Wouldn't be able to reproduce if it didn't have those two organs in it.
Still produces both males and females, as further shown below.
Therefore, this group of species certainly testifies to the Divine Miracle of the Glorious Quran, because the pairs exist among them
now lemme divert your mind onto other creation of allah[swt] called " Parthenogenesis " which are asexual or sexless
"Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male. In plants, parthenogenesis means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg cell, and is a component process of apomixis. The offspring produced by parthenogenesis are always female in species that use the XY sex-determination system.
Parthenogenesis occurs naturally in some invertebrate animal species (e.g. water fleas, aphids, nematodes, some bees, some Phasmida, some scorpion species, and parasitic wasps), and vertebrates (e.g. some reptiles, fish, and very rarely birds and sharks) and this type of reproduction has been induced artificially in other species.
Parthenogenesis is seen to occur naturally in aphids, Daphnia, rotifers, nematodes and some other invertebrates, as well as in many plants. Komodo dragons and the hammerhead- and blacktip sharks have recently been added to the list of vertebrates—along with several genera of fish, amphibians, and reptiles—that exhibit differing forms of asexual reproduction, including true parthenogenesis, gynogenesis, and hybridogenesis (an incomplete form of parthenogenesis). As with all types of asexual reproduction, there are both costs (low genetic diversity and therefore susceptibility to adverse mutations that might occur) and benefits (reproduction without the need for a male) associated with parthenogenesis.
The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as the XY sex-determination system), but they will be male if two like chromosomes determine the male sex (such as the ZW sex-determination system), because the process involves the inheritance and subsequent duplication of only a single sex chromosome. The offspring may be capable of sexual reproduction, if this mode exists in the species. In many cases, parthenogenesis occurs when one gender (typically the male) is unavailable in the general vicinity. Once males are again available, the parthenogenesis-created females would be capable of mating with the males and creating normal offspring."
As we clearly and indisputably see, the scientists themselves:
1- Never unlocked all of the deep secrets of how these animals truly reproduce.
2- Are unsure of how exactly the reproduction occurs with these species.
3- These species are NOT ASEXUAL because they still do produce males and females as the red quotes above clearly state.
4- The scientists claims are no more than speculations at best! They are uncertainties and doubts; unconfirmed science.
Therefore, to use this bogus nonsense against Islam and against Allah Almighty is not acceptable. The scientists seem to have yet still to scratch the surface of unlocking the deep secretes of how these animals truly reproduce. All they have right now are unconfirmed and uncertain speculations, statements and theories. But in all cases, we still have the male and female reproductions among these species! So yes, the pairs are still there in these communities. A single specie of them is still either a male or female according even to those scientists. It is not a true asexual specie, and the scientists themselves are clearly uncertain about what to make of these species.
Hope i answered your question
[/b]Shiraz,
You are right at some point but your answers still not fully satisfied me, I still ask you and other readers to give their thoghts as well on this topic, here I repeat my question agian, that why some species can change there sex by self and we human being can not? I appreciate for your work quoting some Quranic Ayats in your post, but which I think it is not clear answers of my questions. These ayats mention about angels sex not others.
Astagafirullah, I do not want to change my sex I love my gender and proud about my male gender, I am very thankful to Almighty Allah for this graciousness gift and I am also proud that I born in Ismaili religion, but after reading above articles few questions raised in my mind and therefore I wrote these questions here.
In my opinion all souls are created equal no mater that soul is from reef fish, small ants or from human being and all souls should be treated same way and same manner by god, if there is a god? ( of course there is a god) but this is not right for human beings we can not change our sex from femal to male and from male to female by our selves, don't you think this injustice from god? (ASTGAFIRULLAH)
You are right at some point but your answers still not fully satisfied me, I still ask you and other readers to give their thoghts as well on this topic, here I repeat my question agian, that why some species can change there sex by self and we human being can not? I appreciate for your work quoting some Quranic Ayats in your post, but which I think it is not clear answers of my questions. These ayats mention about angels sex not others.
Astagafirullah, I do not want to change my sex I love my gender and proud about my male gender, I am very thankful to Almighty Allah for this graciousness gift and I am also proud that I born in Ismaili religion, but after reading above articles few questions raised in my mind and therefore I wrote these questions here.
In my opinion all souls are created equal no mater that soul is from reef fish, small ants or from human being and all souls should be treated same way and same manner by god, if there is a god? ( of course there is a god) but this is not right for human beings we can not change our sex from femal to male and from male to female by our selves, don't you think this injustice from god? (ASTGAFIRULLAH)
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
I repeat my question agian, that why some species can change there sex by self and we human being can not?
For a simple reason that god has created man and woman in different size, shape etc etc.......i dunno whether you have noticed it but the womans shoulder are weaker than that of man......woman can reproduce man cant ...why ?? b'coz they are made that way ...but when you come to hermaphrodites they are blessed with both male and female organs
do human beings have both the organs to reproduce ? no !!!!
even if someone tries to do sex change operation he/she cannot reproduce [for eg: if a man undergoes sex change , he cannot reproduce and vice versa ]
Astagafirullah, I do not want to change my sex I love my gender and proud about my male gender, I am very thankful to Almighty Allah for this graciousness gift and I am also proud that I born in Ismaili religion, but after reading above articles few questions raised in my mind and therefore I wrote these questions here.
its good to ask !!!
In my opinion all souls are created equal no mater that soul is from reef fish, small ants or from human being and all souls should be treated same way and same manner by god, if there is a god? ( of course there is a god) but this is not right for human beings we can not change our sex from female to male and from male to female by our selves, don't you think this injustice from god? (ASTGAFIRULLAH)
Injustice ?????? I dont see any injustice in the creation of allah[swt], what i see is god explicitly mentioned in quran that he made everything out of water....then why cant he make hermaphrodites ?
If god had given us this ability then do you think we[ashraful maklukaat] would have used it for good purpose ???
What about the institution called MARRIAGE ?? How would you define marriage brother ??
Allah[swt] is all wise my brother, he knows what hes doing....but unfortunately us[the humans] try to lean on a side that we feel is better for us.
For a simple reason that god has created man and woman in different size, shape etc etc.......i dunno whether you have noticed it but the womans shoulder are weaker than that of man......woman can reproduce man cant ...why ?? b'coz they are made that way ...but when you come to hermaphrodites they are blessed with both male and female organs
do human beings have both the organs to reproduce ? no !!!!
even if someone tries to do sex change operation he/she cannot reproduce [for eg: if a man undergoes sex change , he cannot reproduce and vice versa ]
Astagafirullah, I do not want to change my sex I love my gender and proud about my male gender, I am very thankful to Almighty Allah for this graciousness gift and I am also proud that I born in Ismaili religion, but after reading above articles few questions raised in my mind and therefore I wrote these questions here.
its good to ask !!!
In my opinion all souls are created equal no mater that soul is from reef fish, small ants or from human being and all souls should be treated same way and same manner by god, if there is a god? ( of course there is a god) but this is not right for human beings we can not change our sex from female to male and from male to female by our selves, don't you think this injustice from god? (ASTGAFIRULLAH)
Injustice ?????? I dont see any injustice in the creation of allah[swt], what i see is god explicitly mentioned in quran that he made everything out of water....then why cant he make hermaphrodites ?
If god had given us this ability then do you think we[ashraful maklukaat] would have used it for good purpose ???
What about the institution called MARRIAGE ?? How would you define marriage brother ??
Allah[swt] is all wise my brother, he knows what hes doing....but unfortunately us[the humans] try to lean on a side that we feel is better for us.
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oceanbreeze
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:30 pm
THERE IS NO GOD / ANIMAL CAN CHANGE THEIR GENDER
I BELIEVE , THIS FORUM IS MORE ABOUT ISMAILI COMMUNITY AND THEIR ACTIVITES BOTH SOCIAL AND RELIGIOUS ETC , THEREFORE I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE FROM OUTSIDE TRY TO CORRUPT OUR SITE BY BRINGING ISSUSE WHICH HAS NO RELEVENCE TO ISMAILISM , IF YOU WANNA A DEBATE ABOUT GOD OR NO GOD THEN THERE IS LOT OF OTHER SITE FOR EXAMPLE STEPHEN HAWKINS , U CAN ASK THEM BUT AS BELIEVER OR FAITH COMMUNITY WE DONT HAVE SUCH CURIOUSITY .
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
I dont think me or agakhani bhai have issues whether there is god or no god....agakhani bhai wanted to know why certain species can change their reproductive system and so we all tried to give him the most convincing answer.....Ismailism is based on intellect and not mere storiesI BELIEVE , THIS FORUM IS MORE ABOUT ISMAILI COMMUNITY AND THEIR ACTIVITES BOTH SOCIAL AND RELIGIOUS ETC , THEREFORE I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE FROM OUTSIDE TRY TO CORRUPT OUR SITE BY BRINGING ISSUSE WHICH HAS NO RELEVENCE TO ISMAILISM , IF YOU WANNA A DEBATE ABOUT GOD OR NO GOD THEN THERE IS LOT OF OTHER SITE FOR EXAMPLE STEPHEN HAWKINS , U CAN ASK THEM BUT AS BELIEVER OR FAITH COMMUNITY WE DONT HAVE SUCH CURIOUSITY .