Islam and Violence

[sandyp]

YAM All

I have heard many of MHI's Firmans where he says that Islam is a religion of peace and that Ismailis should know their history.

I knew this from before, but was reminded of it again when I read the Quran recently where it said to cut the hands off of thieves.

This time around, I thought I would look into it a bit more and found a couple of hits where Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is said to have cut the hand off of a woman and also a man who stole a shield.

I have trouble understanding how MHI can say that Islam is a religion of peace when there are verses of real violence like this in the Quran.

I'm hoping someone can help me come to terms with this.

Thank you

[kmaherali]

There has been extensive discussion and information on this issue in this forum at:

Current Issues --> Perception of Islam

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 17&start=0

[sandyp]

Thank you for the link, but are you sure there is extensive discussion about this specific verse from the Quran?

There is certainly 8 pages of content and I did a search on each page for the word hand. I only came across one page where they talked about someones hand being chopped off but it was unrelated.

My question is did Prophet Muhammad really cut off the hand of someone for stealing? It just seems very harsh as a punishment and I think verses like this in the Quran really confuses myself and others when they say that Islam is a religion of peace.

Thank you

[kmaherali]

In one of his interviews MHI stated:


"The Qur’an is not a body of law … What is referred to today as Islamic
law is a compilation of views expressed by law makers who lived well after
the revelation of the Qur’an, well after the time of the Prophet…. In
the Qu’ran, for example, a lot of the things which I would refer to as
punishment, are punishment as deterrent…. The question is you have got to
stop certain things from happening for the good of society. Now if that’s
the starting point, then I would say a lot of things do not have to be
done, which maybe being done today in the Muslim world. That is my
position, because I will start from the Qur’an. I will not start from an
interpretation made five or six generations after the life of the
Prophet." -- BBC Radio 4 Interview, Michael Charlton (London, United
Kingdom)6 September 1979

I hope that answers your question. There is a difference between a punishment and a deterrent.

The late Prince Sadruddin Agakhan (the uncle of MHI) in his most important speech addressed the issue about the 'cutting of hands' in the Quran:

"Inevitably, the interpretation and application of Islamic law and principles vary, and in any particular application is as much a reflection of the societies in which the law is being interpreted as it is of Islamic law itself. In Iran, since the revolution, it is said that not a single pair of hands has been cut off, whereas in Sudan under Nimeiri’s reinstatement of Sharia law, part of his attempt to shore up his regime by harnessing the support of fundamentalist elements, they have. In other words, the reasons behind particular applications of Islamic law are to be found by looking at the societies in which it operates. The Koran is as open to as many different interpretations as is the Bible; the amputation of hands is as controversial to thinking Muslims as not flying aeroplanes on Saturdays is to thinking Jews or not believing in evolution is to thinking Christians."

http://ismaili.net/mirrors/sadruddin/cl85.htm

[sandyp]

Thank you, that really helps to put this verse into context.

It does lead me to a follow-up question though. If the purpose of this verse is to act as a deterrent, in todays age, we have laws that are used for deterrents.

Some of the stronger laws are down in Texas where murder can be punishable by execution. Even though this is a law that exists in Texas, inevitably, murder still happens in that state and executions are carried out because the law is followed

Using that same logic, if we go back to the time of the Holy Prophet, this verse was revealed as a deterrent, but there must have been people that went against this verse and in fact, I can across two examples of this.

Does that mean that Prophet Muhammad did carry out the sentence of cutting someones hand off for stealing?

[kmaherali]

Using that same logic, if we go back to the time of the Holy Prophet, this verse was revealed as a deterrent, but there must have been people that went against this verse and in fact, I can across two examples of this.

Does that mean that Prophet Muhammad did carry out the sentence of cutting someones hand off for stealing?

It was not a perfect society and there must have been thieves in it. We know for sure that the Prophet fought wars during his mission and killed people (which is an inevitable consequence of any war), hence it is conceivable that he might have ordered cutting of hands if the context demanded it. I have not read or heard that he actually did.

Whether he actually did or not in the past is irrelevant today. As Prince Sadruddin says the application of the law is a reflection of the context and varies between the countries that use Islamic Law. Very very few countries today have felt the need to use it today.

[sandyp]

Thanks again for this information. I've had a bit of time to think about this and what I'm wondering is if this one verse is meant as a deterrent rather then a punishment, I would assume that there are probably other verses that are meant for the same purpose.

I'm specifically thinking about the concept of Hell. In the Quran, Allah talks about Hell as a place where you will pray for death and death will approach you from all sides, but you will not die.

Has MHI ever spoken publicly about the afterlife and heaven and hell?

[kmaherali]

Has MHI ever spoken publicly about the afterlife and heaven and hell?

Yes MSMS our 48th Imam and the grandfather of MHI has stated the following in his published memoirs:

"After death Divine justice will take into consideration the faith, the prayers and the deeds of man. For the chosen there is eternal life and the spiritual felicity of the Divine vision. For the condemned there is hell, where they will be consumed with regret for not having known how to merit the grace and the blessing of Divine mercy."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[sandyp]

For the condemned there is hell, where they will be consumed with regret for not having known how to merit the grace and the blessing of Divine mercy."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

I have heard MHI pray for the Ruhani spiritual children that are no longer with us. Does that mean if someone is in hell, there is hope for an exit?

[kmaherali]

I have heard MHI pray for the Ruhani spiritual children that are no longer with us. Does that mean if someone is in hell, there is hope for an exit?

There is always hope in his ultimate mercy. All souls are eventually purified and return to their origin.

[sandyp]

I have heard MHI pray for the Ruhani spiritual children that are no longer with us. Does that mean if someone is in hell, there is hope for an exit?

There is always hope in his ultimate mercy. All souls are eventually purified and return to their origin.

I don't know if there is an answer to this, but God has the ability to anything that he wants in all of creation. I believe it is in the Bible where it says, God said Be and the heavens and the earth were created.

In addition to being All Powerful, another attribute of his is Most Merciful. If you put these two attributes together, I've never understood why anyone, even the worst person in the history of the world, should spend even a second in a place like hell.

I know you said that when a soul is purified, it is returned to its origin, but as a Most Merciful and Most Powerful God, wouldn't you think there is a better way to purify then with fire?

We're often said to be the children of God and as children we make mistakes. As a parent, I could punish my child for the purpose of educating when he does wrong, but I could never harm my child.

[kmaherali]

I know you said that when a soul is purified, it is returned to its origin, but as a Most Merciful and Most Powerful God, wouldn't you think there is a better way to purify then with fire?

We're often said to be the children of God and as children we make mistakes. As a parent, I could punish my child for the purpose of educating when he does wrong, but I could never harm my child.

I think the notions of heaven and hell are relative. It depends upon the individual. A person could be physically in pain and suffering yet could be enjoying inner peace and someone else could be enjoying the pleasures of the world and yet be experiencing hell internally. There has been discussion on this subject at:

Doctrines --> Heaven and Hell

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... eaven+hell

Also I think the notions of hell and heaven evolve as a person progresses spiritually. At first the notion is used as a deterrent to keep one away from evil and hence to enjoy the heavenly life of virtue. As a person matures he realizes the heaven and hell are really internal states of mind regardless of the external circumstances.

In reality therefore there is no hell. Upon death if a person has not been ethical, he will be made to regret the opportunity he missed for heavenly existence. This moment of regret is hell. After that there is opportunity for forgiveness and redemption.

[sandyp]

Doctrines --> Heaven and Hell

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... eaven+hell

In reality therefore there is no hell. Upon death if a person has not been ethical, he will be made to regret the opportunity he missed for heavenly existence. This moment of regret is hell. After that there is opportunity for forgiveness and redemption.

Thank you for the link about heaven and hell, it was an interesting read.

I've enjoyed your points of view in this thread and one thing that you mentioned above was that "there is an opportunity for forgiveness and redemption".

Do you have a reference for this. I can only quote from the Quran myself and it says that the door for mercy is only open during this lifetime. After you die, the door for mercy closes, judgement begins and either heaven or hell is your Eternal home.

I would be interested in learning a bit more about your reference for your point of view on this.

Thank you

[kmaherali]

Do you have a reference for this. I can only quote from the Quran myself and it says that the door for mercy is only open during this lifetime. After you die, the door for mercy closes, judgement begins and either heaven or hell is your Eternal home.

I would be interested in learning a bit more about your reference for your point of view on this.

Thank you

In response to one of the questions asked by a group of missionaries Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah (the 48th Imam) stated the following regarding rebirth.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

This implies that there is a non-physical existence (astral existence) wherein souls are given opportunity of purification and elevation. In my opinion the best work that I have read about rebirth in the astral world is given in Chapter 43 of the book Autobiography of a Yogi. This book is an autobiography of the person who dedicated his life for the service of the faith.

In Chapter 43 he discusses how his master (guru) resurrected himself from physical death to explain the hereafter to the world. I am sure you will find it most interesting. It can be accessed at:

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.html

[shiraz.virani]

Muslim neighbor's help Hindu man's funeral

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/131030/n ... 9s-funeral

Enquiries revealed that neighbours of Bala Raju, who are mostly Muslims, contributed money for the cremation of the 60-year-old man with full Hindu rites.