Knowledge, your post is very strong advertisement for why Firmans need to be edited; my post only had two sentences and yet you could not understand it (unless you honestly believe I am from another planet and tried to decrypt it using a comic book algoritm!) Can' t imamgine what you would make of a 10 minutes Firman totally unedited.
As for frustration, I am afraid that is an emotion I do not experience as I am from the old school that has been taught that "Despondency is a sin in Islam", "you can be sad but never unhappy" etc. I suppose you will never have come across those because you probably block your ears when "edited" Firmans are read out. And just so we all know can you confirm that you never "mentally" edit or "delete" any Firmans - I take it you and your nearest and dearest still practice what Mowla preached about sarees, jewellery, ostentatious living (look at the E African firmans pre mass exodus to the West).
Now can we discuss whether KIZ is good or bad for the Jamat instead of indulging in point-scoring?
kalam-e-imam-e-zaman
Kalam-e- Imame zaman
I haven't got a copy of KIZ. But if I am offered one or can get one I will happily accept it. The only reason is that Tariqah Distribution desks dont have them.
Secondly, our Tariqah is an esoteric Tariqah. If an ismaili contemplates the Farmans in an esoteric way there is no question of editing or deleting the Farmans which ever period the Farmans have been made. Whether it is a Kalam made by Mowla Ali or Farmans made by Hazrat Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah.
If the Farman Made by Mowlana Hazar Imam says (a few years ago) about putting your child to sleep at 7.00 p.m. in an esoteric way I would think what is th meaning of child. There are two types of sleep. One is physically sleeping and the other is mentally sleeping. As per Hazrat Ali's Kalam ' Din ko karo aap kamai dhandha. Raat ko baitho jampo usko jiska hai tu banda.'
So every farman taken in an esoteric sense always remains 'Live' in a Murids heart and thoughts until he dies. There is absolutely no question of editing or deleting them mentally.
Secondly, our Tariqah is an esoteric Tariqah. If an ismaili contemplates the Farmans in an esoteric way there is no question of editing or deleting the Farmans which ever period the Farmans have been made. Whether it is a Kalam made by Mowla Ali or Farmans made by Hazrat Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah.
If the Farman Made by Mowlana Hazar Imam says (a few years ago) about putting your child to sleep at 7.00 p.m. in an esoteric way I would think what is th meaning of child. There are two types of sleep. One is physically sleeping and the other is mentally sleeping. As per Hazrat Ali's Kalam ' Din ko karo aap kamai dhandha. Raat ko baitho jampo usko jiska hai tu banda.'
So every farman taken in an esoteric sense always remains 'Live' in a Murids heart and thoughts until he dies. There is absolutely no question of editing or deleting them mentally.
Undoubtedly our tariqa ia an esoteric one but we must not see everything in a baitun light - after all there is duniya as well not just deen. In fact we overuse the concept; quite often instead of responding to critics of our deen in a reasoned way we dismiss them as not capable of understanding esoteric matters.
The Firman you have used as an example was made by Mowla in Dar-es-Salaam in 1959 (the time incidentally was 7.30) and he went on to explain why as well so there was nothing esoteric about it. When Mowla says spend your resources wisely I doubt there are many in the Jamat who start looking for an esoteric meaning of resources (purav janam ni kamayi etc etc)
Do I conclude from your readiness to accept a copy of KIZ that you believe it was a good idea for individuals to publish Firmans?
The Firman you have used as an example was made by Mowla in Dar-es-Salaam in 1959 (the time incidentally was 7.30) and he went on to explain why as well so there was nothing esoteric about it. When Mowla says spend your resources wisely I doubt there are many in the Jamat who start looking for an esoteric meaning of resources (purav janam ni kamayi etc etc)
Do I conclude from your readiness to accept a copy of KIZ that you believe it was a good idea for individuals to publish Firmans?
kalam-e-imame-zaman
[quote="Jani"]Undoubtedly our tariqa ia an esoteric one but we must not see everything in a baitun light - after all there is duniya as well not just deen. In fact we overuse the concept; quite often instead of responding to critics of our deen in a reasoned way we dismiss them as not capable of understanding esoteric matters.
The Firman you have used as an example was made by Mowla in Dar-es-Salaam in 1959 (the time incidentally was 7.30) and he went on to explain why as well so there was nothing esoteric about it. When Mowla says spend your resources wisely I doubt there are many in the Jamat who start looking for an esoteric meaning of resources (purav janam ni kamayi etc etc)
Do I conclude from your readiness to accept a copy of KIZ that you believe it was a good idea for individuals to publish Firmans?[/quote]
YES
The Firman you have used as an example was made by Mowla in Dar-es-Salaam in 1959 (the time incidentally was 7.30) and he went on to explain why as well so there was nothing esoteric about it. When Mowla says spend your resources wisely I doubt there are many in the Jamat who start looking for an esoteric meaning of resources (purav janam ni kamayi etc etc)
Do I conclude from your readiness to accept a copy of KIZ that you believe it was a good idea for individuals to publish Firmans?[/quote]
YES
A very resounding yes from you as I expected.
Just so that we know where our loyalties lie, I do not believe publishing the Firmans was a good idea - I have intimated the risks so will not expound on those. If you get a chance, read the Firmans Mowla made in Nairobi on 13 December 1973 and Insallah you will understand why I (and many others) do not share your enthusiasm for KIZ and your antipathy towards the leadership.
Contrary to any impression you may have, I do not have any quarrels with people who support KIZ; I do not like the idea of washing our dirty linen in public and that is why I have posted more in a week then I do in a year!
Peace to you.
Just so that we know where our loyalties lie, I do not believe publishing the Firmans was a good idea - I have intimated the risks so will not expound on those. If you get a chance, read the Firmans Mowla made in Nairobi on 13 December 1973 and Insallah you will understand why I (and many others) do not share your enthusiasm for KIZ and your antipathy towards the leadership.
Contrary to any impression you may have, I do not have any quarrels with people who support KIZ; I do not like the idea of washing our dirty linen in public and that is why I have posted more in a week then I do in a year!
Peace to you.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Why do you think it is not good idea to publish Farman book? Give reasons for your answers. According to you, is it not important to know the Farmans of Hazir Imam? How Farmans can be recorded without publishing book? Historically when were Farmans first published? Do you know about Farman book published by gupti ismailis. For that you need to read book "Heroes of Surat".Jani wrote:A very resounding yes from you as I expected.
Just so that we know where our loyalties lie, I do not believe publishing the Firmans was a good idea - I have intimated the risks so will not expound on those. If you get a chance, read the Firmans Mowla made in Nairobi on 13 December 1973 and Insallah you will understand why I (and many others) do not share your enthusiasm for KIZ and your antipathy towards the leadership.
Contrary to any impression you may have, I do not have any quarrels with people who support KIZ; I do not like the idea of washing our dirty linen in public and that is why I have posted more in a week then I do in a year!
Peace to you.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Re: Leadership
Ya Ali Madad Shamsu,shamsu wrote:As far as leadership goes there has been atleast one incident in history when a leader declared the wrong son to be the next Imam.
So,
Leadership is capable of things much worse than what we have experienced.
Why would the Imam make Farmans about him being the sole authority to make changes in the practice of our faith?
To me the reason could be because there are people who are trying to mislead the jamat and are trying to make changes in the way we practice our faith.
Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly mentioned "tamaro deen" and "amaro deen" in his Farmans.
I think our current Imam has also differentiated by saying "Your Faith" and "Our Faith" in different places.
I have not heard or read any Baitul Khayal Farman where he has used the word "Your Faith" It is always "Our Faith" in BUK when he gives Bol.
If I were trying to mislead the jamat the first thing I would do is prevent access to the Farmans of Imam. The Farmans where Imam mentions about he is not sure if the leaders are telling the jamat what he has said.
There is evidence in the Farmans of leaders not delivering Farmans (what he has said) accurately or not delivering them at all.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Imam may want to weed out some of the Jamat.
So many of the new generation of Ismailies are getting marginalized that I fear they may become mainstream in a generation or two.
What I will say now may be considered rants of a lunatic or call it unbhai vani.
There has been a prediction I believe in our scriptures of there being a split in the Jamat during the time of the 50th Imam (It may have been 49th or 51st Imam, I do not recall exactly). It is supposed to be when the Pir and Imam joma are separate. One side will get enamoured by the Pir and start worshiping him while discounting The Imam.
The other faction will have their priorities focussed on the Imam-e-zaman.
I believe this strongly enough to make my son aware of this possibility and reminding him periodically.
Thats all for now.
Can you provide details about this prediction with references?
star_munir, Since you ask I shall respond. Firstly what gives you the impression that I am against publication of Firmans per se? I do not agree with Firmans being published without “authority” of the Imam. Can you please remind us all whether ITREB or any of its fore-runners existed when the guptis “printed” the Firmans? Until the defendants filed their defence, the identity of the plaintiffs was not central to the case; the pivotal point was whether anyone can publish Mowla’s Firmans unedited and without his permission. Let us leave aside the identity of the “objector(s)” although I have no doubt and know for a fact that before the case is heard by the court a few people are in for a rude awakening.
I shall attempt to explain my reasons as well as expound a few other points I would like to make. Let us go back to basics, that is, right back to the Quran. Now you probably know better than I the concept of abrogation – there are a number of ayats that have been abrogated. Take alcohol for example. Initially the companions were told not to pray when intoxicated, it was only later that they were forbidden alcohol. Does this diminish Allah’s glory and majesty in any way – is Allah any less perfect for not having gone for a ban from the outset? Why do we then object to Mowla’s Firman being edited (let us for now take it that it is indeed Mowla who edits the Firmans). Again you will know better than I the Firmans of the 2000 visit to Pakistan. He told the Afghan Jamat that the Firman would be translated but it is not easy for Murids to understand all of his Firmans. Do you think he was suggesting that the translators were not good enough or could he have been suggesting that he will be editing his Firman before it is translated? Let us look at another example. During the final GJ Darbar, Mowla made a joke about the road signs to the venue. Do you know what “esoteric” meaning some “bhagats” started seeing in the joke – they said Mowla was telling us about heaven and hell, redemption and condemnation; all this “hindic” concept of mugti and najat etc. Is it any surprise the joke did not survive in its original form in the version that is now read out in jamatkhanas?
To reiterate I do not object to Firmans being published – I have copies of all the Firman Books published in Kenya and Canada as well as Sultan Muhammad Shah’s Firmans published by Ismailia Association India.
It has been a long post. I would like to finish by asking my own question. If you believe the publication of KIZ was a good thing do you accept the corollary that attempting to stop it is a bad thing? If it turns out that it is indeed Mowla who wants KIZ to be withdrawn, how do you think you will be able to rationalise his action?
I shall attempt to explain my reasons as well as expound a few other points I would like to make. Let us go back to basics, that is, right back to the Quran. Now you probably know better than I the concept of abrogation – there are a number of ayats that have been abrogated. Take alcohol for example. Initially the companions were told not to pray when intoxicated, it was only later that they were forbidden alcohol. Does this diminish Allah’s glory and majesty in any way – is Allah any less perfect for not having gone for a ban from the outset? Why do we then object to Mowla’s Firman being edited (let us for now take it that it is indeed Mowla who edits the Firmans). Again you will know better than I the Firmans of the 2000 visit to Pakistan. He told the Afghan Jamat that the Firman would be translated but it is not easy for Murids to understand all of his Firmans. Do you think he was suggesting that the translators were not good enough or could he have been suggesting that he will be editing his Firman before it is translated? Let us look at another example. During the final GJ Darbar, Mowla made a joke about the road signs to the venue. Do you know what “esoteric” meaning some “bhagats” started seeing in the joke – they said Mowla was telling us about heaven and hell, redemption and condemnation; all this “hindic” concept of mugti and najat etc. Is it any surprise the joke did not survive in its original form in the version that is now read out in jamatkhanas?
To reiterate I do not object to Firmans being published – I have copies of all the Firman Books published in Kenya and Canada as well as Sultan Muhammad Shah’s Firmans published by Ismailia Association India.
It has been a long post. I would like to finish by asking my own question. If you believe the publication of KIZ was a good thing do you accept the corollary that attempting to stop it is a bad thing? If it turns out that it is indeed Mowla who wants KIZ to be withdrawn, how do you think you will be able to rationalise his action?
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samirnoorali
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:18 pm
Farmans Literal or Not Literal
The concept of keeping the Ismaili faith esoteric is often taken to extreme levels. We are esoteric, in that we acknowledge an inner dimension to matters of faith, but that doesn’t mean that everything in life has to have an esoteric background. For example, when Hazer Imam gave a farman in 1957 advising parents to put their children to bed no later than 7:30 pm, the reason was that children who are up later than that will most likely be tired at school, they won’t do their work properly, and their overall health will be affected.
Now that was the farman as it is. That was the advice the Imam gave and so be it. But there is a movement within the Ismaili faith that seeks to nullify every question, every inquiry into matters of faith, by turning that which is literal into that which is figurative. Worse, these individuals would take such a farman and twist it to find an esoteric meaning that actually doesn’t exist.
When the Imam says put your children to sleep at 7:30 pm, he meant literally put your children to sleep at that time. Stop looking for esoteric meanings behind his farmans, you’ll drive yourself crazy. Putting children to sleep should not have a philosophy behind it. It means what it means.
When one questions if the Imam is Allah, then either he is or he isn’t. That is up to individual belief. But to somehow discourage individuals from discussing the matter by saying it is esoteric, not exoteric is actually a brilliant way of avoiding answering ‘sensitive’ questions.
Therefore, it is important to stop becoming extremely esoteric. Extremity is not a healthy approach. Our prayers in Jamat Khane are sometimes branded as being esoteric, but we still perform them in an exoteric fashion; in the sense that we physically attend a prayer hall, we physically make gestures in prayer, we physically ask for forgiveness. This means the spiritual and material co-exist with one another, not apart.
I will give you another example. Many times Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah would say to the Jamat that it was important to understand the soul, to understand that this world is a prison, and that we are trapped in this prison very much like a bird would be trapped in a cage. Now many Ismailis listened to this information and took the wrong path. They figured that if they are esoteric and this world is bad then if they kill themselves then it would free them from this material existence much quicker. That became a very big problem.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah made another farman in which he stated that killing oneself was not the way to break free from the material existence. One has to carry out a material existence, but while on Earth, one should devote time to questioning why they are in this world and where will they be going. Those are valid questions anybody, of any faith, would be trying to answer.
If one breaks their leg and they are in pain, then they would naturally seek a physician’s advice. Now if that physician says that they must go to the hospital and get a cast put on that leg then those instructions must be taken seriously. The person with the broken leg should not question the doctor by saying, “I understand that you want me to go to the hospital, but what is the esoteric meaning behind your advice?” This sort of chap will contemplate that the doctor didn’t literally mean a physical hospital; he meant that my pain had something spiritual connected to it. This person would further contemplate that esoterically the hospital refers to the ‘next world’ and that the pain he is experiencing is the pain of the soul. So this person would rather sit at home and take the pain because esoterically he believes that the pain should be tolerated because it is a reflection of his soul going through the pain of this existence.
Now this makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly, those who take the Imam’s farmans and follow them should have enough sense to understand that which is esoteric and that which is exoteric. If the Imam says that this world is temporary, then that means it is an esoteric concept, but in exoteric terms it literally means that every person will physically die some day.
If the Imam says study hard at school, then that has to be taken literally. There is nothing esoteric about it. Studying is not an esoteric concept; school is not an esoteric concept. It is very damaging to one’s brain to try to find ‘secret’ codes in the Imam’s words.
The Ismaili concept of being esoteric means that we acknowledge inner dimensions. But that does not mean we reject that which is literal. For example, the Quran speaks of the light of Allah. To explain this light, the Quran gives a parable or small lesson that is supposed to teach the reader what this light is like. It uses imagery like a niche, a lamp, a glass, a star, a tree, in order for the reader to relate the light to something they are already familiar with. In this case, using metaphoric language helps the reader understand a concept which is abstract. One cannot say for certain that the light of God is literally a niche and within it a lamp. That is not what the parable was aiming to achieve. It was trying to summarize a very difficult concept in just a few words. But if a person was to analyse these words then write about them, he could possibly fill many volumes of books.
But if the Quran says that pay the zakat, or religious due, then that literally means one has to pay the money. There is no esoteric concept behind it. If your phone company says you must pay your phone bill, you cannot turn around say that what is the esoteric meaning behind paying my phone bill? My point in all this is that too many individuals are bent on shunning the answers to the Ismaili faith with the excuse that everything is esoteric. I think that those individuals are at the brink of insanity, because this faith was meant to be questioned. Our whole outlook on faith rests upon the answering of questions. The moment an individual says that we should not question the faith that person is hindering the youth and those who genuinely seek knowledge.
One thing I must add that needs special attention. Many Ismailis tend to quote ginanic verse which says: “bore mane srevo.” They tend to say that this meant we should be blind in matters of faith. First of all, that is not the meaning of this verse. People have extracted this verse without completing the sentence. The verse says “bore mane srevo Sirjanhar” which translates as “serve the Creator with a clear conscience.” Now a lot of folks have misinterpreted the verse to mean that Ismailis are supposed to be illiterate in matters of faith and that we are not to question any of it. This is simply untrue. The verse is talking about service, not about knowledge. It is not saying anything about following the faith blindly. This is unfortunately a widespread interpretation taken by individuals who have no idea what the ginans are saying. In fact there are many occasions where the Pir has said that his followers should remain “intelligent,” so for him to say two contradictory concepts doesn’t make sense.
Another problem that I find is quite widespread in many Ismaili circles is the concept that the older generations were uneducated and illiterate. That these previous generations accepted everything the Imam said without questioning. This is a humiliating conclusion made by many individuals in our Jamat. Who are you to say that these generations were uneducated? Who is to say 200 years from now people will look back and say you were uneducated?
I beg to differ. The older generations were much more educated than we are today. Along with that, they understood what it meant to be loyal to the Imam. If you think you are so educated because you know a thing or two more about science than the generations of the past then you are only fooling yourself. Today you can say that those generations were uneducated, tomorrow those generations will say you were uneducated. Where does it end? Their brains were same size as our brains, but just because they rode with a horse carriage doesn’t mean they didn’t think about the universe as much as we do.
Thanks to older generations we have knowledge today. Thanks to their foundations we have something to walk on. Old people are not illiterate, they are very literate. I’m not saying that people at that time were not lazy or foolish. Every generation has people who think awkwardly, but overall it is wrong to brand previous generations as lacking intelligence. What is even more wrong is to say that these generations blindly followed whatever the Imam said. The Imam of those times used to say many concepts which are difficult in this generation to understand. He would often remark that even though the concepts are hard, he was confident that his audience had enough sense to grasp them. I don’t think the current Imam has so much confidence in this generation.
At that time, the Imam used to openly say to his audience that they were acting like donkies. The concept of being a donky was not literal, but meant that people were not using their full capacities. Today’s generation is ‘not so ‘educated’ to understand such expressions. Take for example the titles read out during the Golden Jubilee.
During the Golden Jubilee, Hazer Imam was happy to give special titles to individuals whom he wanted to recognize publicly for their devoted services. These titles were read out in Jamat Khane so that it can become official. But there were many Ismailis who were very upset that they did not receive titles. Many fights broke out, saying that the Imam was not fair and that they deserved to get a title. One person would say to the other: “My father has served for 50 years and didn’t receive any recognition, and yet a recent graduate from university, who served only 2 years was given a title. That is unfair.” Fights broke out between individuals. People declared that they will not go to Jamat Khane until they receive a title for their services. People banded together to say that the Imam should not have read the titles in Jamat Khane, but rather he should have sent a personal letter in his own writing and signature to each of the title holders.
A little simple thing the Imam decided to do and look at all the mess this generation has caused. Who is educated now? Part of being educated means that your intellectual faculties are better trained to understand concepts more readily than a person who is un-educated. Didn’t these individuals know, that these titles have gone through a process of screening and those who got titles were recognized for their specific merit. One cannot apply for a job and then sit and complain why the hiring manager didn’t choose them. Every person who applies for a job will consider themselves the best candidate, but sometimes that is not reality.
In Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s time, many individuals would receive titles and the Jamat understood and respected that. Everything was not perfect, but at least they did not misunderstand the concept behind giving titles.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s farmans should be read by this generation. Along with that, Nagib has done a wonderful job distributing farmans of Kalame Imame Zaman. These farmans are meant for us to reflect upon. Nagib believes that the Imam is Allah and therefore his intentions to distribute the farmans are innocent.
Samir Noorali
Now that was the farman as it is. That was the advice the Imam gave and so be it. But there is a movement within the Ismaili faith that seeks to nullify every question, every inquiry into matters of faith, by turning that which is literal into that which is figurative. Worse, these individuals would take such a farman and twist it to find an esoteric meaning that actually doesn’t exist.
When the Imam says put your children to sleep at 7:30 pm, he meant literally put your children to sleep at that time. Stop looking for esoteric meanings behind his farmans, you’ll drive yourself crazy. Putting children to sleep should not have a philosophy behind it. It means what it means.
When one questions if the Imam is Allah, then either he is or he isn’t. That is up to individual belief. But to somehow discourage individuals from discussing the matter by saying it is esoteric, not exoteric is actually a brilliant way of avoiding answering ‘sensitive’ questions.
Therefore, it is important to stop becoming extremely esoteric. Extremity is not a healthy approach. Our prayers in Jamat Khane are sometimes branded as being esoteric, but we still perform them in an exoteric fashion; in the sense that we physically attend a prayer hall, we physically make gestures in prayer, we physically ask for forgiveness. This means the spiritual and material co-exist with one another, not apart.
I will give you another example. Many times Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah would say to the Jamat that it was important to understand the soul, to understand that this world is a prison, and that we are trapped in this prison very much like a bird would be trapped in a cage. Now many Ismailis listened to this information and took the wrong path. They figured that if they are esoteric and this world is bad then if they kill themselves then it would free them from this material existence much quicker. That became a very big problem.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah made another farman in which he stated that killing oneself was not the way to break free from the material existence. One has to carry out a material existence, but while on Earth, one should devote time to questioning why they are in this world and where will they be going. Those are valid questions anybody, of any faith, would be trying to answer.
If one breaks their leg and they are in pain, then they would naturally seek a physician’s advice. Now if that physician says that they must go to the hospital and get a cast put on that leg then those instructions must be taken seriously. The person with the broken leg should not question the doctor by saying, “I understand that you want me to go to the hospital, but what is the esoteric meaning behind your advice?” This sort of chap will contemplate that the doctor didn’t literally mean a physical hospital; he meant that my pain had something spiritual connected to it. This person would further contemplate that esoterically the hospital refers to the ‘next world’ and that the pain he is experiencing is the pain of the soul. So this person would rather sit at home and take the pain because esoterically he believes that the pain should be tolerated because it is a reflection of his soul going through the pain of this existence.
Now this makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly, those who take the Imam’s farmans and follow them should have enough sense to understand that which is esoteric and that which is exoteric. If the Imam says that this world is temporary, then that means it is an esoteric concept, but in exoteric terms it literally means that every person will physically die some day.
If the Imam says study hard at school, then that has to be taken literally. There is nothing esoteric about it. Studying is not an esoteric concept; school is not an esoteric concept. It is very damaging to one’s brain to try to find ‘secret’ codes in the Imam’s words.
The Ismaili concept of being esoteric means that we acknowledge inner dimensions. But that does not mean we reject that which is literal. For example, the Quran speaks of the light of Allah. To explain this light, the Quran gives a parable or small lesson that is supposed to teach the reader what this light is like. It uses imagery like a niche, a lamp, a glass, a star, a tree, in order for the reader to relate the light to something they are already familiar with. In this case, using metaphoric language helps the reader understand a concept which is abstract. One cannot say for certain that the light of God is literally a niche and within it a lamp. That is not what the parable was aiming to achieve. It was trying to summarize a very difficult concept in just a few words. But if a person was to analyse these words then write about them, he could possibly fill many volumes of books.
But if the Quran says that pay the zakat, or religious due, then that literally means one has to pay the money. There is no esoteric concept behind it. If your phone company says you must pay your phone bill, you cannot turn around say that what is the esoteric meaning behind paying my phone bill? My point in all this is that too many individuals are bent on shunning the answers to the Ismaili faith with the excuse that everything is esoteric. I think that those individuals are at the brink of insanity, because this faith was meant to be questioned. Our whole outlook on faith rests upon the answering of questions. The moment an individual says that we should not question the faith that person is hindering the youth and those who genuinely seek knowledge.
One thing I must add that needs special attention. Many Ismailis tend to quote ginanic verse which says: “bore mane srevo.” They tend to say that this meant we should be blind in matters of faith. First of all, that is not the meaning of this verse. People have extracted this verse without completing the sentence. The verse says “bore mane srevo Sirjanhar” which translates as “serve the Creator with a clear conscience.” Now a lot of folks have misinterpreted the verse to mean that Ismailis are supposed to be illiterate in matters of faith and that we are not to question any of it. This is simply untrue. The verse is talking about service, not about knowledge. It is not saying anything about following the faith blindly. This is unfortunately a widespread interpretation taken by individuals who have no idea what the ginans are saying. In fact there are many occasions where the Pir has said that his followers should remain “intelligent,” so for him to say two contradictory concepts doesn’t make sense.
Another problem that I find is quite widespread in many Ismaili circles is the concept that the older generations were uneducated and illiterate. That these previous generations accepted everything the Imam said without questioning. This is a humiliating conclusion made by many individuals in our Jamat. Who are you to say that these generations were uneducated? Who is to say 200 years from now people will look back and say you were uneducated?
I beg to differ. The older generations were much more educated than we are today. Along with that, they understood what it meant to be loyal to the Imam. If you think you are so educated because you know a thing or two more about science than the generations of the past then you are only fooling yourself. Today you can say that those generations were uneducated, tomorrow those generations will say you were uneducated. Where does it end? Their brains were same size as our brains, but just because they rode with a horse carriage doesn’t mean they didn’t think about the universe as much as we do.
Thanks to older generations we have knowledge today. Thanks to their foundations we have something to walk on. Old people are not illiterate, they are very literate. I’m not saying that people at that time were not lazy or foolish. Every generation has people who think awkwardly, but overall it is wrong to brand previous generations as lacking intelligence. What is even more wrong is to say that these generations blindly followed whatever the Imam said. The Imam of those times used to say many concepts which are difficult in this generation to understand. He would often remark that even though the concepts are hard, he was confident that his audience had enough sense to grasp them. I don’t think the current Imam has so much confidence in this generation.
At that time, the Imam used to openly say to his audience that they were acting like donkies. The concept of being a donky was not literal, but meant that people were not using their full capacities. Today’s generation is ‘not so ‘educated’ to understand such expressions. Take for example the titles read out during the Golden Jubilee.
During the Golden Jubilee, Hazer Imam was happy to give special titles to individuals whom he wanted to recognize publicly for their devoted services. These titles were read out in Jamat Khane so that it can become official. But there were many Ismailis who were very upset that they did not receive titles. Many fights broke out, saying that the Imam was not fair and that they deserved to get a title. One person would say to the other: “My father has served for 50 years and didn’t receive any recognition, and yet a recent graduate from university, who served only 2 years was given a title. That is unfair.” Fights broke out between individuals. People declared that they will not go to Jamat Khane until they receive a title for their services. People banded together to say that the Imam should not have read the titles in Jamat Khane, but rather he should have sent a personal letter in his own writing and signature to each of the title holders.
A little simple thing the Imam decided to do and look at all the mess this generation has caused. Who is educated now? Part of being educated means that your intellectual faculties are better trained to understand concepts more readily than a person who is un-educated. Didn’t these individuals know, that these titles have gone through a process of screening and those who got titles were recognized for their specific merit. One cannot apply for a job and then sit and complain why the hiring manager didn’t choose them. Every person who applies for a job will consider themselves the best candidate, but sometimes that is not reality.
In Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s time, many individuals would receive titles and the Jamat understood and respected that. Everything was not perfect, but at least they did not misunderstand the concept behind giving titles.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s farmans should be read by this generation. Along with that, Nagib has done a wonderful job distributing farmans of Kalame Imame Zaman. These farmans are meant for us to reflect upon. Nagib believes that the Imam is Allah and therefore his intentions to distribute the farmans are innocent.
Samir Noorali
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star_munir
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If Imam edits or Changes the Farmans He made, then certainly its not the issue. According to the changing circumstances and situations, there are changes in guidance from Hazir Imam. But only Imam can make changes, not any other individual. Problem comes when institution/people try to edit, modify and make changes in Ginans, Farman, Ceremonies on their own. Alwaez Abu Ali has mentioned this in his waezes.
Now to answer your question it is certainly not proper for us to attempt to stop publication of KIZ. Why should we be against it? If indeed Imam wishes to stop its publication, then only in that case it should be stopped. If Imam says day then its day and if says night then its night. Defendants themeselves had said they are ready to do whatever Imam will say to them. They had strong doubts or perhaps are sure that they had not done this work against wishes of Imam. Lets see what Hazir Imam will say on this.
Samir I like your comment and do agree with your views particularly regarding exoteric and esoteric concepts and misconception existing among us.
Now to answer your question it is certainly not proper for us to attempt to stop publication of KIZ. Why should we be against it? If indeed Imam wishes to stop its publication, then only in that case it should be stopped. If Imam says day then its day and if says night then its night. Defendants themeselves had said they are ready to do whatever Imam will say to them. They had strong doubts or perhaps are sure that they had not done this work against wishes of Imam. Lets see what Hazir Imam will say on this.
Samir I like your comment and do agree with your views particularly regarding exoteric and esoteric concepts and misconception existing among us.
Samir, we are in total agreement on how the jamat shies away from dealing with difficult issues by hiding behind "exoteric".
star_munir and others - have you seen the following report:
http://www.vancouverite.com/2010/05/14/ ... nt-page-1/
star_munir and others - have you seen the following report:
http://www.vancouverite.com/2010/05/14/ ... nt-page-1/
Kalam-e-Imame Zaman
I beg to differ with you Samir on the esoteric concept of our faith. I think every farman has got a hidden esoteric meaning. It is upon an individual ismaili whether he wants to take it in an exoteric concept or esoteric concept. And I do not think that people who have this belief (esoteric belief)are lunatics. While I teach my children (aged 8 to 10)about the Ismaili Centre Dushanbe and the Afghanistan conference I make sure that they do understand that our Tariqah is an esoteric Tariqah. Yesterday while reading Farman (Bombay 26th November 1967) we came across a line which said that You should continue in the profession of farming.And of course that farman was for that time but my 8 year old described the activity of farming. Sowing the seeds, harvesting, selling and earning money. They explained to me sow the seeds of farman in your heart, add bandagi and get the fruits(reward by Hazar Imam). Hazrat Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said Amara Farman uppar be kalak vichar karo;.Definitely he wants us to think deeper into the meaning. This is my view of the esoteric concept. I do not want to force it on anyone but please do not think that this class of Jamat or this group of jamat are lunatics. Shukhar Mowla we have done well in a duniyavi way and are aiming to do well in a deeni way as well.
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samirnoorali
- Posts: 65
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Misquoting Farmans
The quote here says:
“I beg to differ with you Samir on the esoteric concept of our faith. I think every farman has got a hidden esoteric meaning. It is upon an individual ismaili whether he wants to take it in an exoteric concept or esoteric concept. And I do not think that people who have this belief (esoteric belief)are lunatics. While I teach my children (aged 8 to 10)about the Ismaili Centre Dushanbe and the Afghanistan conference I make sure that they do understand that our Tariqah is an esoteric Tariqah. Yesterday while reading Farman (Bombay 26th November 1967) we came across a line which said that You should continue in the profession of farming.And of course that farman was for that time but my 8 year old described the activity of farming. Sowing the seeds, harvesting, selling and earning money. They explained to me sow the seeds of farman in your heart, add bandagi and get the fruits(reward by Hazar Imam). Hazrat Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said Amara Farman uppar be kalak vichar karo;.Definitely he wants us to think deeper into the meaning. This is my view of the esoteric concept."
I understand what you are saying regarding your search for esoteric concepts, but you are taking it to an extreme which is not healthy. Since your children are young, it is not proper to teach them to take esoteric meanings out of something which is not meant to be esoteric. Doing that just confuses the child and eventually they will grow up taking more time contemplating than executing. These are not complex word problems. If you want to teach them to think outside the box then let them go to classes that teach advanced mathematics. But to teach them that there is an inner meaning to something which does not exist is leading them on a wrong path.
I know you are teaching your children the way you want and as a parent you have every right to. But I feel that you need to step back and think what kind of influence you are having on them. They are innocent and don’t know what to think. The example you gave is completely wrong. I usually don’t quote people, but you are mistaken by teaching what you teach to your children. I’m not entirely sure if you read this farman or not. My feeling is that you are lying about contemplating this farman with your children. I say this because there is not a single time Hazer Imam mentions the word “farming” in the entire farman.
Moreover, there is not a single time Hazer Imam says, in any shape or form, that one should “continue in the profession of farming.” Where did you get this verbiage from? Hazer Imam said that if a person is in business, a profession, or in agriculture, that they should come together, work together, and help each other.
So if you are saying that you sat with your child and both of you came across a line which clearly states that one “should continue in the profession of farming,” then I think one of two things; either you have difficulty understanding the farman or you are lying about the concept in order to make an esoteric example. Perhaps you skimmed through the farman really quickly and saw a word, misinterpreted it, and now you want to make a point to me.
I understand that you want to make a point. But I am very sensitive when it comes to people misquoting the Imam. Now some chap will read your post and say that they want to become farmers because you said that the Imam said it was okay. Be very careful next time in projecting farmans that are incorrect. In good faith, I hope this will be a lesson to you.
Samir Noorali
“I beg to differ with you Samir on the esoteric concept of our faith. I think every farman has got a hidden esoteric meaning. It is upon an individual ismaili whether he wants to take it in an exoteric concept or esoteric concept. And I do not think that people who have this belief (esoteric belief)are lunatics. While I teach my children (aged 8 to 10)about the Ismaili Centre Dushanbe and the Afghanistan conference I make sure that they do understand that our Tariqah is an esoteric Tariqah. Yesterday while reading Farman (Bombay 26th November 1967) we came across a line which said that You should continue in the profession of farming.And of course that farman was for that time but my 8 year old described the activity of farming. Sowing the seeds, harvesting, selling and earning money. They explained to me sow the seeds of farman in your heart, add bandagi and get the fruits(reward by Hazar Imam). Hazrat Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said Amara Farman uppar be kalak vichar karo;.Definitely he wants us to think deeper into the meaning. This is my view of the esoteric concept."
I understand what you are saying regarding your search for esoteric concepts, but you are taking it to an extreme which is not healthy. Since your children are young, it is not proper to teach them to take esoteric meanings out of something which is not meant to be esoteric. Doing that just confuses the child and eventually they will grow up taking more time contemplating than executing. These are not complex word problems. If you want to teach them to think outside the box then let them go to classes that teach advanced mathematics. But to teach them that there is an inner meaning to something which does not exist is leading them on a wrong path.
I know you are teaching your children the way you want and as a parent you have every right to. But I feel that you need to step back and think what kind of influence you are having on them. They are innocent and don’t know what to think. The example you gave is completely wrong. I usually don’t quote people, but you are mistaken by teaching what you teach to your children. I’m not entirely sure if you read this farman or not. My feeling is that you are lying about contemplating this farman with your children. I say this because there is not a single time Hazer Imam mentions the word “farming” in the entire farman.
Moreover, there is not a single time Hazer Imam says, in any shape or form, that one should “continue in the profession of farming.” Where did you get this verbiage from? Hazer Imam said that if a person is in business, a profession, or in agriculture, that they should come together, work together, and help each other.
So if you are saying that you sat with your child and both of you came across a line which clearly states that one “should continue in the profession of farming,” then I think one of two things; either you have difficulty understanding the farman or you are lying about the concept in order to make an esoteric example. Perhaps you skimmed through the farman really quickly and saw a word, misinterpreted it, and now you want to make a point to me.
I understand that you want to make a point. But I am very sensitive when it comes to people misquoting the Imam. Now some chap will read your post and say that they want to become farmers because you said that the Imam said it was okay. Be very careful next time in projecting farmans that are incorrect. In good faith, I hope this will be a lesson to you.
Samir Noorali
kalam-e-imame-zaman
Samir, as i had said earlier you cannot force people in what they believe in. Bringing up my children is my responsibility and no one elses. The farman that I have quoted is an official Farman book by the Tariqah board called 'Precious Gems'.
Neither do i think that i am taking the concept in an extreme level nor do i think that it is anyone elses business to interfere in what way others are practising their faith. Read Mowlana Hazar Imam speech at the 25 years of IIS and see ehat has he said about 'Jihad'. I can't imagine if we were to take this word in an exoteric sense what would the results be.
I think i joined this forum to express my views on the printing and publishing of KIZ and i have done that. I will no longer post my opinions in this section.Instead let me go and enjoy some Sufi poems written by Rumi and Mansur.
Good luck and goodbye.
Neither do i think that i am taking the concept in an extreme level nor do i think that it is anyone elses business to interfere in what way others are practising their faith. Read Mowlana Hazar Imam speech at the 25 years of IIS and see ehat has he said about 'Jihad'. I can't imagine if we were to take this word in an exoteric sense what would the results be.
I think i joined this forum to express my views on the printing and publishing of KIZ and i have done that. I will no longer post my opinions in this section.Instead let me go and enjoy some Sufi poems written by Rumi and Mansur.
Good luck and goodbye.
Here it is:
'Taking as an example scholarship inspired by the Qur’anic message, the Aga Khan recalled the thought of the 11th century poet-philosopher, Nasir Khusraw for whom ‘true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading of knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul.’
Quran conference 19th October 2003
'Taking as an example scholarship inspired by the Qur’anic message, the Aga Khan recalled the thought of the 11th century poet-philosopher, Nasir Khusraw for whom ‘true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading of knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul.’
Quran conference 19th October 2003
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samirnoorali
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:18 pm
Viewing Farmans
My whole point in replying about inner and outer concepts was to point out that extremity in any direction is not healthy. To become too exoteric or too esoteric is not healthy. Examples of being too exoteric are seen when women wear a hijab or veil. That is an extreme outward expression of the faith. An example of being too esoteric is seen when people reject the practice of religion and say that everything has to do with the heart, love, and inner self.
Becoming orthodox or being a hermit expresses itself as an extremity. Balance between the esoteric and exoteric is far more healthier and in turn contributes to a more progressive and civilized society.
I am aware there is a farman which talks about the profession of farming in Bombay. But my whole exercise was to point out that taking a simple concept as farming and extrapolating hidden esoteric meanings from it is not healthy, especially for children.
As far as editing is concerned, neither Nagib or Alnaz has ever made changes to the farmans in Kalame Imame Zaman. With regards to farmans, the simple solution for the Ismaili councils was to simply not read certain farmans, or to only read extracts. When it comes to Ginans, one cannot extract words very easily. Ismaili Associations from Bombay and Karachi have done editing since the 60's to the Ginans of which they are not authorized to do so.
Nagib has printed these farmans from his own expense. This happened at a time when obtaining farmans from the Tariqah Board or Ismaili councils was near impossible. In addition to that, getting farmans or Ginans from the councils would usually be edited or given in extracts. That was unacceptable.
Those who go to Jamat Khane, listen to the Anant Akaro, or Ashaji. Notice the words Hari Anant have been changed to Ali Anant. There is not documentation whatsoever that authorizes such a change. And furthermore, no Ismailia Association is allowed to make changes to the Ginans without the authority of the Imam. Since the current Imam is also the 50th Pir, only he can authorize such changes.
Samir Noorali
Becoming orthodox or being a hermit expresses itself as an extremity. Balance between the esoteric and exoteric is far more healthier and in turn contributes to a more progressive and civilized society.
I am aware there is a farman which talks about the profession of farming in Bombay. But my whole exercise was to point out that taking a simple concept as farming and extrapolating hidden esoteric meanings from it is not healthy, especially for children.
As far as editing is concerned, neither Nagib or Alnaz has ever made changes to the farmans in Kalame Imame Zaman. With regards to farmans, the simple solution for the Ismaili councils was to simply not read certain farmans, or to only read extracts. When it comes to Ginans, one cannot extract words very easily. Ismaili Associations from Bombay and Karachi have done editing since the 60's to the Ginans of which they are not authorized to do so.
Nagib has printed these farmans from his own expense. This happened at a time when obtaining farmans from the Tariqah Board or Ismaili councils was near impossible. In addition to that, getting farmans or Ginans from the councils would usually be edited or given in extracts. That was unacceptable.
Those who go to Jamat Khane, listen to the Anant Akaro, or Ashaji. Notice the words Hari Anant have been changed to Ali Anant. There is not documentation whatsoever that authorizes such a change. And furthermore, no Ismailia Association is allowed to make changes to the Ginans without the authority of the Imam. Since the current Imam is also the 50th Pir, only he can authorize such changes.
Samir Noorali
I read that article where the lawyer said Farmans are only opinions.
Who would have believed that now Ismailis are trying to understand the definition of a Farman from someone who had no idea that Farmans even existed few weeks ago... And all of a sudden the lawyer's sayings have become the Bible
Way to go!
Who would have believed that now Ismailis are trying to understand the definition of a Farman from someone who had no idea that Farmans even existed few weeks ago... And all of a sudden the lawyer's sayings have become the Bible
Way to go!
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Re: Viewing Farmans
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has Himself told this that there are thousands of meaning of His farmans. Just like you read and interpret Ginans, read and interpret the Farmans. So Farmans have exoteric and esoteric aspects and can be interpreted in more then one waysamirnoorali wrote:My whole point in replying about inner and outer concepts was to point out that extremity in any direction is not healthy. To become too exoteric or too esoteric is not healthy. Examples of being too exoteric are seen when women wear a hijab or veil. That is an extreme outward expression of the faith. An example of being too esoteric is seen when people reject the practice of religion and say that everything has to do with the heart, love, and inner self.
Becoming orthodox or being a hermit expresses itself as an extremity. Balance between the esoteric and exoteric is far more healthier and in turn contributes to a more progressive and civilized society.
I am aware there is a farman which talks about the profession of farming in Bombay. But my whole exercise was to point out that taking a simple concept as farming and extrapolating hidden esoteric meanings from it is not healthy, especially for children.
As far as editing is concerned, neither Nagib or Alnaz has ever made changes to the farmans in Kalame Imame Zaman. With regards to farmans, the simple solution for the Ismaili councils was to simply not read certain farmans, or to only read extracts. When it comes to Ginans, one cannot extract words very easily. Ismaili Associations from Bombay and Karachi have done editing since the 60's to the Ginans of which they are not authorized to do so.
Nagib has printed these farmans from his own expense. This happened at a time when obtaining farmans from the Tariqah Board or Ismaili councils was near impossible. In addition to that, getting farmans or Ginans from the councils would usually be edited or given in extracts. That was unacceptable.
Those who go to Jamat Khane, listen to the Anant Akaro, or Ashaji. Notice the words Hari Anant have been changed to Ali Anant. There is not documentation whatsoever that authorizes such a change. And furthermore, no Ismailia Association is allowed to make changes to the Ginans without the authority of the Imam. Since the current Imam is also the 50th Pir, only he can authorize such changes.
Samir Noorali
But however it would not be a correct approach if any one neglect the exoteric aspect and say that there is hidden meaning only. There is not always figurative language or symbols. For example if there is farman not to wear black clothes during prayers, then one should not wear black clothes and should not ignore it by saying it has hidden meaning.
Did the Lawyer REALLY speak to H.H. The Aga Khan?
Copyright Lawsuit Update: Did the Lawyer REALLY speak to H.H. The Aga Khan? - 2010-05-22
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29849
Heritage News asked the defendants whether they are in communication with the Lawyers. They replied that no communication has been received since May 17. They add that Ogilvie Renault Lawyer Mr Gray has never confirmed to the defendants that H.H. The Aga Khan Himself initiated this case. Here is the most recent response from the Lawyer:
May 16, Nagib asks the Lawyer by email:
"Can you please confirm us that you have talked directly to His Highness in regards to this lawsuit and when? By directly I mean in person and without intermediary, as defined by the Oxford dictionary."
May 17, the Lawyer responds by email:
"I am not authorized to discuss the nature or circumstances surrounding those instructions"
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29849
Heritage News asked the defendants whether they are in communication with the Lawyers. They replied that no communication has been received since May 17. They add that Ogilvie Renault Lawyer Mr Gray has never confirmed to the defendants that H.H. The Aga Khan Himself initiated this case. Here is the most recent response from the Lawyer:
May 16, Nagib asks the Lawyer by email:
"Can you please confirm us that you have talked directly to His Highness in regards to this lawsuit and when? By directly I mean in person and without intermediary, as defined by the Oxford dictionary."
May 17, the Lawyer responds by email:
"I am not authorized to discuss the nature or circumstances surrounding those instructions"
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Topic Temporarily Closed
In view of the extraordinary historical visit of H.H. the Aga Khan to Toronto for the Groundbreaking ceremony of the Wynford Park complex including the Ismaili Center and Aga Khan Museum, this topic is currently closed, so that our users can focus on the Main Imamat Event. This topic will reopen after the Imam departs from Canada.
posts on this subjects are continued on the following link
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740
Copyright Lawsuit Motion for Dismissal: ANOTHER DELAY TACTIC
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30100
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Motion for Dismissal by Defendants Here - 2010-06-24
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30101
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Affidavits in Defendants' Motion Here
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30102
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Evidence in Defendants' Motion Here
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30104
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740
Copyright Lawsuit Motion for Dismissal: ANOTHER DELAY TACTIC
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30100
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Motion for Dismissal by Defendants Here - 2010-06-24
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30101
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Affidavits in Defendants' Motion Here
- http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30102
Copyright Lawsuit: Read the Evidence in Defendants' Motion Here
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30104