Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:28 pm

A). QURANIC EXEGESIS (Tafsir):

O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; (AL-MAEDA/5:67)

This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; (AL-MAEDA/5:3)

The above two ayats are the final ayats which came....the scribes have wrongfully placed them in Sura 5 but they have a historical significance as they relate to Ali (as)

One demanding, demanded the chastisement which must befall, The unbelievers there is none to avert it, From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.(AL-MAARIJ/70:1-3)

oh really ??? then how come they left IMAMAT as and whole in quran for where all the shia's[including ismailis] trace imamat ???

imamat being in quran itself makes it authentic !!!

B). PROPHETIC TRADITION (Hadith):

Imam Ahmad has recorded the tradition related by Bara' ibn 'Azib in his Musnad, vol.4, p. 281, transmitted through two different sources. Bara' says: "We were with the Messenger of Allah.

We alighted at Ghadir-e-Khumm. Congregational prayer was in order. An area under two trees was swept and cleaned for the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity.

He offered midday prayers and he grasped the hand of 'Ali and said: 'Do you not know that I have superior authority over the lives of the faithful than the faithful themselves?'

'Yes you have,' they replied. He again inquired: 'Do you not know that I have superior right to the life of every believer than the believer himself?'

'Surely, you have,' they answered. Then he grasped the hand of 'Ali and said: 'Ali is the mawla of all those of whom I am mawla.

O Allah! Love him who loves him and hate him who hates him.'"

Bara' ibn 'Azib says: "Then 'Umar came to 'Ali and said: 'Congratulations to you the son of Abu Talib. You have become the mawla (master) of all the faithful men and women.'"

C). HISTORICAL REPORTS (Tarikh):

Here we will just mention one instance which took place in Kufa during the khilafah of Imam Ali (A.S.), 25 years after the Prophet's death.

When at Ali's insistence a large number of people gathered in the plain of Rahbah in Kufah, he addressed them saying:

"I administer an oath in the name of Allah to all such Muslims as heard the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) making a proclamation on the day of Ghadir-e-Khumm, to stand up and testify what they heard him say.

Only those who saw the Holy Prophet that day with their own eyes and heard the proclamation with their own ears should stand up."

Thereupon, thirty companions of the Holy Prophet(S.A.W), including twelve of those who had participated in the battle of Badr, stood up and witnessed that the Holy Prophet(S.A.W) grasped his (Ali's) hand and said to the audience:

"Do you know that I have a prior right to and superior authority over the souls (i.e., lives) of the faithful than the faithful themselves?"

"O yes!" they said. The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) then said: "He (Ali) is the mawla (i.e., has prior right to and superior authority over the lives) of all those of whom I am mawla.

O Allah, love him who loves him (Ali) and hate him who hates him."

It is logically impossible that thirty companions might have secretly agreed to speak a unanimous lie.

In addition to the thirty witnesses there were other male companions whom enmity with Ali prevented from standing up and giving their evidence as eye-witnesses, like Anas ibn Malik.

When Ali (A.S.) said to Anas:

"Why do you not stand up and testify what you heard from the messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir?" he answered,

"O Amir al-Momineen! I have grown old and do not remember."

Thereupon Ali said: "May Allah mark you with a white spot (of leprosy) unconcealable with your turban, if you are intentionally withholding the truth.

" And before Anas got up from his place he bore a large white spot on his face. Thereafter, Anas used to say:

"I am under the curse of a righteous slave of Allah.

This incident which took place in Kufa in the year 35 A.H. has itself been narrated by four sahaba and 14 tabi'un and has been recorded in most books of history and tradition.

i wonder why this so called miracles happen during the time of imam ali[as] only , i mean we had rasool[saw] who never claimed any divinity nor did imam ali[as].....nor did imam shah karim al hussaini...

well since you're a hadith worshipper, lemme give you a friendly advice...next time if you see a fly in your tea...please dont kill it, make sure you re-dip it in the same tea and drink it for one wing has disease and other got its cure

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:09 pm

brother Virani, when you say I am a "jack of all trades", I actually take it as a compliment because what you are saying is that I am able to discuss different topics and rebut with ease...

Now what Znan had said earlier on about you , you have just proved her right brother....she had predicted that you will go back to your mullahs and then come back with some more fables they give you - anyone can see you are full of contradictions... You are actually swinging like a pendulum and talking from both ends of your mouth....

You have added your home made commentaries ....these commentaries (not the ayat) are not only changing the entire context but you are actually calling the children of Israel as idolators when the ayah is silent; you are naming the nine clear signs when the quran is silent; and where did you even get the name "muhamad" into this ayat from - which text ?..

This is what you have added :

"...namely, [those of] the hand, the staff, the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, the blood and the obliteration [of their possessions, cf. Q. 10:88], the years [of dearth] and scarcity of fruits [cf. Q. 7:130]."...

then you have added..."Ask, O Muhammad (s), the Children of Israel, about this (a [rhetorical] question meant as an affirmation for the idolaters of your sincerity; or [it means that] We said to him [Muhammad, s], ‘Ask’; a variant reading has the past tense [fa-sā’ala, ‘and he asked’]), ..."...

Now where did you get all this from? Is it in your arabic text?

Here is the actual ayah as it appears:

17:101
YUSUFALI: To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses.

Lets compare your interpolations which you have mixed with the ayah

Here is your version of 17:101

And verily We gave Moses nine manifest signs, clear [signs], namely, [those of] the hand, the staff, the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, the blood and the obliteration [of their possessions, cf. Q. 10:88], the years [of dearth] and scarcity of fruits [cf. Q. 7:130]. Ask, O Muhammad (s), the Children of Israel, about this (a [rhetorical] question meant as an affirmation for the idolaters of your sincerity; or [it means that] We said to him [Muhammad, s], ‘Ask’; a variant reading has the past tense [fa-sā’ala, ‘and he asked’]), when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him, ‘O Moses, I truly think that you are bewitched’, duped, your mind deceived.

So I am sure everyone can see the dubiety you have offered.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:27 pm

I had stated: "Both the Bible and the Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to the Land of Israel does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself....so do you agree with what the quran says? - You agreed !

This is what you replied:

absolutely !!!
no wonder we see more jews in israel , we see their holy jerusalem there...jews living in different countries travel israel to visit jerusalem...and so on and so forth.

you call this a flaw ????
i call it common sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****

but when I said...

THE LAND OF ISRAEL IN QUR'ANIC EXEGESIS

The fundamentalist Muslim program to use Islam as an instrument for political warfare against Jews finds a major obstacle in the Qur'an itself.

What does your arabic text say?

You are questioning.....where ???
whereeeeeeeeeeeeeee ??? ... so are you not contradicting yourself?

***********
Now when I said"
It seems God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.

So does then The Qur'an recognize the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. What does your arabic text say?

You fly off on a tangent and end up by saying:

i would like to ask sister. zina, where jerusalem is located at.....and whats so special about jerusalem ??

if sister zina can answer it ,then the above question itself be answered for the fact that jerusalem is the holy place of alllllllllllllllllllllll the jews living on this planet, just like mecca for muslims .

So if you see the very first answer, you are categorical and affirmative and call it common sense and then you contradict your own self.

*****************

Then you again take a swing...just see what you say..

The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

does this appear in your text....don't try to teach me "tafsirs"...answer me !

This is what you said in response...."after reading @ above i think that you think i am anti-jew.....which is totally absurd because i dont make any difference between any religion...i never cursed them or abused them....matter of fact my neighbors are jews..."

but that is what you just proved to us all, by introducing anti jewish commentaries to a quranic ayah when the ayah itself makes no mention of such terminology and then to justify what you did, you have the gall to call it "tafsirs'....what are you upto? what is the game you are playing brother? we have no time for "one upman ship here"

So from the above four samples, two are contradicting the other two and so what do we conclude from all this?

Kindly explain the paradox ! what is the current Palestinian/Jewish dispute all about then ? if what you say is a matter of "common sense" (which ofcourse isn't so common) then are you saying that there should not be any dispute with the Jews as , to put this in your own words,it is a matter of common sense that the land of Israel belongs to them and Jerusalem is their Holy Place - not ours ! so clarify as your flibusters seem to be more confusing than enlightening !

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:10 pm

"...oh really ??? then how come they left IMAMAT as and whole in quran for where all the shia's[including ismailis] trace imamat ??? imamat being in quran itself makes it authentic !!! ...."

Irrelevant and incompetent answer - absolutely out of context !

Also if in 5:3 says Allah has perfected HIS religion, then HE suddenly says to the Prophet in a later sura..."O ! Prophet deliver to the people...." so what does this then tell you?...bear Allah as your witness and draw an honest conclusion....your scribes never got it right !

For the past 62 years Palestinian refugees have been languishing in camps surrounded by Muslim kingdoms! Why? Righteous Muslims like you should be ashamed of this situation.The way you write and behave reflects poorly on your faith, which you call Islam. You talk and act like a man who just got up from a bad dream.

What have your Protectors of Islam done for the women and children of Islam? These protectors of Islam, who sit on billions of dollars of oil fields, what have they done for the Ummah besides destruction!

They can buy a diamond studded car for their children's birthdays, send their children to English schools and shop at Harrods for lingeries....but they cannot welcome Palestinian refugees in their Kingdom! why? are they not humans? are they not muslims?

What would the Prophet have directed them to do Virani ? and here you are playing a game with everyone.

Story tellers like you are unable to assert objectively because what they propose as relativism is not relative at all.

It is practically impossible for anyone to write history correctly, of the remote past,laden with half truths and half imagination !

Historians have never been neutral..and so none can claim that their evaluative expressions are correct in such absolutist terms,unless he was either from any of the close companions or the family itself...

Most of you curse the western world but live in their countries and are happy to receive alms with both hands...When your tongue is dilating, you begin to talk and are not able to stop because your veins are fixed.

However we all are living at a time when those who speak truth are few and those who speak truth are humiliated.

But the fact is that your learned are hypocrites and sycophants and your young do not respect their elders and muslim women are under subjugation and uneducated and many muslim women have ended up in brothels through no fault of theirs - your rich are selfish and un supportive of the poor.....and they do not really care about resolving the Palestinian issue....but they use that willingly as an excuse to further their own political agenda...they stir the pot...and make them fight a stronger opponent, knowing very well what the end result will be....but they do not care for it is not their own children dying....and you are asking me if I know where Is Jerusalem....

The so called "itjihad" in reality is fabrications of your fallible scholars !

Virani, where you belong, the gate of independant reasoning is closed for you because your clerics rule your lives, this means you accept their "doctrines" and not of our Prophet...the reasoning is simple..to help those in power to stay in power for ever and they roost over you...

Now Muslims claim..! One Allah, One Quran, One Nabi....!

So then where their "Great unity" ?

Among Muslims, Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim countries.

The religious riot in most Muslim countries is always between these two sects.

The American attack on Iraq was supported by most of the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq ! - a million people must have died !

And when it is said to them: Follow what ALLAH has sent down, they say:

"Not that! But we will follow what we found our fathers upon". What? Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance? The parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls; but they hear nothing, except a call and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, so they understand not". (The Holy Qur'an 2 Al- Baqarah 170-171).

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 am

zz, I too would love to show you but my hands are tied....where Allah has placed a full stop nobody can now put a question mark....you abandoned the wise ones...and so have fallen into misguidance....now you have to do with what you have....sorry pal !

I too would love to show you but my hands are tied

Who tied it?

....where Allah has placed a full stop nobody can now put a question mark.

Where does it say “Allah has placed full stop.”?

Do you have evidence? Did you copy/paste from somewhere?

You abandoned the wise ones—

My parents did because they were not convinced they were following wise ones. I am looking for wise guidance and it is not in your cut and paste tirade.

....now you have to do with what you have..

Not really

sorry pal !

Sorry, with pal like you who nneds enemy!!

but according to the Qur'ân (36:12) all these âyât (signs) are encompassed in the light of the Imâm-i Mubin.

I looked up various translation of 36:12. It seems you are making up from fractured Aya.

Here is translation from various Scholars. (you might not consider them scholars since they do not agree with your agenda)

36:12

Word by word
[ http://www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local ... n&img=1553 ]

['in(na) -] Indeed [naa nah.nu] We [nuh.ye ] bring to life al- mawtaa] the dead [wa-] and [naktub] We record [maa] what [qaddamo] they put forward [wa-] and ['aathaar -hum ] What they left behind [wa-] and [kull] all [shay' ah .s] things [.aynaa –hu] We have indeed enumerated [fe] in [ 'imaam] register [ muben] clear

Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they put forth and what they left behind and all things We have enumerated in a clear register.

Maulana Muhammad Ali

36:12 Surely, We give life to the dead, and We write down that which they send before and their footprints, and We record everything in a [b] clear writing [/b].

George Sale, original translation in 1734

36:12 Verily We will restore the dead to life, and will write down their works which they shall have sent before them, and their footsteps which they shall have left behind them; and every thing do We set down in a plain register.

Malik

Surely We shall resurrect the dead, We are recording all that they are sending ahead and that they are leaving behind. We have recorded everything in an open ledger.

Pickthall

Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them), and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a clear register.

[Shakir 36:12] A Shia Translation

Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.

[Yusufali 36:12] Verily We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind, and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence).

Translation by Prof Thomas Irving (USA)

* We revive the dead and write down whatever they have sent on ahead and [left] as traces; We calculate everything in an open ledger.

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:52 pm

Virani AKA zzNoor

"sister, once again you have proved us that you know nothing !!!
can you please tell us when did this so called SYED sahebs quran was introduced ?? which year was that ?

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znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:09 pm

ZZNoor, did you change your ID and come back asking the same question for which an answer has already been given? which madrassa did you go to? the one in the caves of Tora Bora?

Allah leaves in stray people like you and your Imam Maherally, and there is none who leads astray the one whom Allah has guided.

Praise belongs to God Who in every century inspires a group of scholarly people to defend the Way of the Prophet, Peace be upon him and his immaculate progeny, from the distortions of the ignorant -- those who call the majority of Muslims mushrik (idolaters) and mubtadi` (innovators) and kafir (disbelievers), falsely claiming that they alone are saved.

Today , muslims are in trouble becoz we have hypocrites filled in our midst ..... and the solution to do well is to uproot and expose these hypocrites

You guys have abandoned the wise ones...and so have fallen into misguidance....now you have to do with what you have....sorry pal !

8. Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.

9. And We have set a bar before them and a bar behind them, and (thus) have covered them so that they see not.

don't you see Allah has placed a hugh full stop ?

These two unprecedented and magnificent things, each of which is weightier than the heaven and the earth, or rather the entire universe, are the Qur'ân and its Teacher (the Imam) whom the Prophet appointed as his khalifah or successor. ...You have neither !

When the Prophet says "Ali is the Mowla of those whose Mowla I am"...it is so clear - even those who go to kindergarten would be able to explain to you the converse of this categorical statement...so if Ali is the mawla of those whose mawla is Muhamad SAW..then Muhamad is not the mawla of those who abandoned Ali and did not accept him as their mawla...take it or leave it ! go and wave your flags at Maherally...he loves "pampering" if you know what I mean...he has an over sized "diabetic ego" which only the progeny of Iblis have been given...he has been boasting on Youtube with his disciples that Namaz is to replace ismaili Du'a - he is day dreaming ! just the way you are dreaming about so many imaginary things.

It is they (Ali and his pure descendants) who are the Rope of Allah which is stretched from the heaven to the earth to lift the people of the earth to the heaven (Sharh, X, 481)." [Source: Tawil 669: A Thousand Wisdoms]
And so you guys are hanging in the mid stream and holding onto to Maherally over whose house the Aga Khan's Red and Green Flags are flying !

Allah guides unto HIS Noor whomsover HE Wills...which means everyone is not entitled to it and certainly not the children of Maherally...." Verily I make thee Imam for mankind " - Abraham said:.." And of my offspring".....Allah said " Yes! but my Covenant reaches NOT the unjust ones !...so please give us a break and take off .....the blind and the seeing cannot be equal...truly sad but then that is how Nature wishes to operate....Allah says: "wretched is that for which they have sold themselves that they should reject what God had sent down"? and so Allah has "sealed such hearts" because it is full of sickness !

So now which other "full stop" you are looking for? check with Iblis - he might help you...this forum belongs to the believers Sir !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:32 pm

brother Virani, when you say I am a "jack of all trades", I actually take it as a compliment because what you are saying is that I am able to discuss different topics and rebut with ease...

first of all i would like to congratulate you for your name = ZINA [ UNLAWFUL SEX]

lol, as usual sister, pasting only half and ignoring the rest......thats what you guys do with holy quran !!

JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE and it suits you in every way sister because when pushed to the corner you tend to change the topic.....as you said last time

IT A STRATEGY , that you use against those who follow quran and imamat[itrat]

Now what Znan had said earlier on about you , you have just proved her right brother....she had predicted that you will go back to your mullahs and then come back with some more fables they give you - anyone can see you are full of contradictions... You are actually swinging like a pendulum and talking from both ends of your mouth....

my imam e zaman is no mullah.....are you sure you an ismaili, well let me tell you sister, he is the 49th living SHAH/PIR and his name is shah karim al hussaini HAZAR IMAM and...and so far his teaching goes sister, he never told any ismaili on this planet not to believe in quran/or the holy quran has got contradictions...and if so kindly show us a firman of present imam and ill be more than happy to leave you in peace.

so far you never answered my question as to why we recite holy dua in our jamatkhana which is take from the same quran [ uthmanic as per you ]

when you're not able to answer one simple question, how are you going to answer the rest of it ??? and when i ask you this question you say sister nanwalla has already answered it.....where ???? changing the topic is that what you call an answer ? well i simply call it RUNNING from the truth

You have added your home made commentaries ....these commentaries (not the ayat) are not only changing the entire context but you are actually calling the children of Israel as idolators when the ayah is silent; you are naming the nine clear signs when the quran is silent; and where did you even get the name "muhamad" into this ayat from - which text ?..

he he he he.....this is what happens when you read the present quran[uthmanic as per you] without any understanding.....now since you were not aware of those 9 signs you dint even tried to figure out what they were and hence as usual blaming me of tampering the verses.....where as i gave you the names of 9 signs mentioned in holy quran by allah[swt] himself !!!

so ms.jack of all trade, master of none

, please get your facts straight !

This is what you have added :

"...namely, [those of] the hand, the staff, the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, the blood and the obliteration [of their possessions, cf. Q. 10:88], the years [of dearth] and scarcity of fruits [cf. Q. 7:130]."...

then you have added..."Ask, O Muhammad (s), the Children of Israel, about this (a [rhetorical] question meant as an affirmation for the idolaters of your sincerity; or [it means that] We said to him [Muhammad, s], ‘Ask’; a variant reading has the past tense [fa-sā’ala, ‘and he asked’]), ..."...

Now where did you get all this from? Is it in your arabic text?

blaming the present quran[uthmanic as per you] without even getting your facts straight sister.....everything is mentioned in quran !!!!

all you have to do is read !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now read in the name of allah[swt],

7:107 (Picktall) Then he flung down his staff and lo! it was a serpent manifest;

7:108 (Picktall) And he drew forth his hand (from his bosom): and lo! it was white for the beholders.

7:130 (Picktall) And We straitened Pharaoh's folk with famine and the dearth of fruits, that peradventure they might heed

7:133 (Picktall) So We sent them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood--a succession of clear signs. But they were arrogant and became guilty.

7:136 (Picktall) Therefore We took retribution from them; therefore We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations and were heedless of them.

every single thing is mentioned in quran sister, yet you are sooo ignorant that you not only try to find flaws in it...but also inspire my fellow ismaili brothers and sisters not to read quran because as per you it is not complete.....as i told you last time, PLEASE DONT TRY TO MAKE FOOL OF YOURSELF.

Here is the actual ayah as it appears:

actual in which book ? imam e zaman's quran or the present quran ?

17:101
YUSUFALI: To Moses We did give Nine Clear Signs: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses.

Lets compare your interpolations which you have mixed with the ayah

Here is your version of 17:101

And verily We gave Moses nine manifest signs, clear [signs], namely, [those of] the hand, the staff, the flood, the locusts, the lice, the frogs, the blood and the obliteration [of their possessions, cf. Q. 10:88], the years [of dearth] and scarcity of fruits [cf. Q. 7:130]. Ask, O Muhammad (s), the Children of Israel, about this (a [rhetorical] question meant as an affirmation for the idolaters of your sincerity; or [it means that] We said to him [Muhammad, s], ‘Ask’; a variant reading has the past tense [fa-sā’ala, ‘and he asked’]), when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him, ‘O Moses, I truly think that you are bewitched’, duped, your mind deceived.

i have already clear my stand on 9 signs....matter of fact i even proved you those 9 signs from the very same quran[ uthmanic as per you ] ....if you still this that iam trying to put my own views into it...then all i could say is , ILL PRAY FOR YOU

let my brothers and sisters read this post and decide for themselves that whether i invented those 9 signs by myself or is it allah[swt] who really did sent those signs !

as i told you last time sister, FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:05 pm

I had stated: "Both the Bible and the Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to the Land of Israel does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself....so do you agree with what the quran says? - You agreed !

This is what you replied:

absolutely !!!
no wonder we see more jews in israel , we see their holy jerusalem there...jews living in different countries travel israel to visit jerusalem...and so on and so forth.

you call this a flaw ????
i call it common sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****

but when I said...

THE LAND OF ISRAEL IN QUR'ANIC EXEGESIS

The fundamentalist Muslim program to use Islam as an instrument for political warfare against Jews finds a major obstacle in the Qur'an itself.

What does your arabic text say?

You are questioning.....where ???
whereeeeeeeeeeeeeee ??? ... so are you not contradicting yourself?

i simply asked you to show me where in ISLAM does allah[swt] tell a muslim to go and kill a jew !!!

or did allah said ok israel is not the land of jews so kill and conquer it ?

look how you try to put your words in my mouth and blame me !

Now when I said"
It seems God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.

So does then The Qur'an recognize the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. What does your arabic text say?

You fly off on a tangent and end up by saying:

i would like to ask sister. zina, where jerusalem is located at.....and whats so special about jerusalem ??

if sister zina can answer it ,then the above question itself be answered for the fact that jerusalem is the holy place of alllllllllllllllllllllll the jews living on this planet, just like mecca for muslims .

So if you see the very first answer, you are categorical and affirmative and call it common sense and then you contradict your own self.

please kindly show me how i contradicted my ownself ??? instead of answering the above question which i asked

"what sooooooooooooo special about jerusalem ?? "

you simply try to defend your ownself , without even caring to answer my question !!!

you call this a contradiction ??

tell me who built jerusalem ???? who was a prophet at that time ????

lemme cut it short for you or make it even more simpler for you

who is prophet david[as] ??

whose descendant is he[as] ??

if you can answer this then @ above question whom you are shouting about will be cleared once and for all !!!!

there is no contradiction at all !!! the so called contradiction is in your head, atleast thats what i can figure out from your senseless arguements

Then you again take a swing...just see what you say..

The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

does this appear in your text....don't try to teach me "tafsirs"...answer me !

but that is what you just proved to us all, by introducing anti jewish commentaries to a quranic ayah when the ayah itself makes no mention of such terminology and then to justify what you did, you have the gall to call it "tafsirs'....what are you upto? what is the game you are playing brother? we have no time for "one upman ship here"

kindly show me an aayat which talks about anti-jew, or should i say you the one who is copy/pasting quranic aayat without any reference ?

for ex: 9 signs given to prophet moses[as] !!

Kindly explain the paradox ! what is the current Palestinian/Jewish dispute all about then ? if what you say is a matter of "common sense" (which ofcourse isn't so common) then are you saying that there should not be any dispute with the Jews as , to put this in your own words,it is a matter of common sense that the land of Israel belongs to them and Jerusalem is their Holy Place - not ours ! so clarify as your flibusters seem to be more confusing than enlightening !

, you yourself said that jerusalem belongs to jews @ above...and this is what i said !!

it belongs to jews ! .....where is BAIT UL LAHM located at ??

when did i said anything against jews ?

it was you who showed us 9 signs not me !!!!!!!!!!!

it was you who failed to show those 9 signs and simply blamed me for inventing them whereas it is already there mentioned in holy quran !!!

it is you who called me anti-jew where as i never said anything against them !

the problem that we see today between israel and jerusalem is not clash of civilisation...but as my imam termed it....its a clash of ignorance ...the problem similar to that is not just fixed to those countries

what would you say about india/pakistan who always fight for kashmir ???would you call it imam sultan muhammad shah[as]'s mistake ?????

what about N.Ireland ? would you blame christians for that ?

@ above is not related to religion !!!!!!!!!!!!

its all because of unsolved political issues !!!!

see you are anti-quranic and you purpose is to prove that quran is fabricated....my job is to show you the truth from the very same quran [which shukhar allah i did !] ....so as long as we have people who are anti to something , how can there be a solution ??

our imam e zaman is pouring millions in afghanistan for their development [parks/schools/hotels/call center etc etc] yet you see people getting terrorised !

nowonder people like you call 9/11 conspiracy = JIHAAD which is really unfortunate

shukhar allah[swt] that our imam e zaman said im plain words

its not clash of civilization....it is a clash of ignorance .....today over 70% people living in USA know that 9/11 was no terrorist attack !

it was a conspiracy !

how come they couldnt find a black box ?? [which is located in every plane] ? now thats a myth that many people are trying to understand !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:45 pm

"...oh really ??? then how come they left IMAMAT as and whole in quran for where all the shia's[including ismailis] trace imamat ??? imamat being in quran itself makes it authentic !!! ...."

Irrelevant and incompetent answer - absolutely out of context !

how is it irrevelant sister ? dont you see imamat in present quran ?? if NO! then how do you trace imamat ?

from a decayed body of some ayatullah who heard from mr.A and who himself heard from mr.B that rasool[saw] or imams[as] said ...........

For the past 62 years Palestinian refugees have been languishing in camps surrounded by Muslim kingdoms! Why? Righteous Muslims like you should be ashamed of this situation.The way you write and behave reflects poorly on your faith, which you call Islam. You talk and act like a man who just got up from a bad dream.

and what are you doing for them ???? arent you a muslimah ?? isnt it your job to help them ? tell me what are you doing for them ?

the problem with current situation is that nobody wants to bend ! just like you and znanwalla....nobody wants to come to negotiation terms !

its not just that country sister.....what about iran ??? its a shia state..........SHIA STATE/REGIME SISTER...... whats happening over there ?? is it driven by faith ?

What have your Protectors of Islam done for the women and children of Islam? These protectors of Islam, who sit on billions of dollars of oil fields, what have they done for the Ummah besides destruction!

did you went personally to see who is doing what ??? or only if you see their names is newspapers you'll actually believe that ok this sheikh has actually done something ?

allah[swt] has commanded us that the charity should be given in such a way that the left hand shouldnt know what right hand is giving.....now do you know for sure that they are not helping our brothers and sister ?

They can buy a diamond studded car for their children's birthdays, send their children to English schools and shop at Harrods for lingeries....but they cannot welcome Palestinian refugees in their Kingdom! why? are they not humans? are they not muslims?

i totally agree with you on this one.....but why only saudi ? what about pakistan whose politicians are just like you = hard headed !

what about bangladesh...which once was stuffed with millions of dollars by the present imam ?

What would the Prophet have directed them to do Virani ? and here you are playing a game with everyone.

correction ! its not rasool[saw] but allah[swt] who have commanded us to help poor...but its really unfortunate that everyone is concerned about their ownself.....forgetting about aakhirat.

It is practically impossible for anyone to write history correctly, of the remote past,laden with half truths and half imagination !

not in quran e paak's case

Historians have never been neutral..and so none can claim that their evaluative expressions are correct in such absolutist terms,unless he was either from any of the close companions or the family itself...

but quran is !!!

Most of you curse the western world but live in their countries and are happy to receive alms with both hands...When your tongue is dilating, you begin to talk and are not able to stop because your veins are fixed.

and when did i cursed the western world ?

However we all are living at a time when those who speak truth are few and those who speak truth are humiliated.

i dont think so !! you're humiliated depending upon what you know.....unfortunately you know nothing sister

But the fact is that your learned are hypocrites and sycophants and your young do not respect their elders and muslim women are under subjugation and uneducated and many muslim women have ended up in brothels through no fault of theirs - your rich are selfish and un supportive of the poor.....and they do not really care about resolving the Palestinian issue....but they use that willingly as an excuse to further their own political agenda...they stir the pot...and make them fight a stronger opponent, knowing very well what the end result will be....but they do not care for it is not their own children dying....and you are asking me if I know where Is Jerusalem....

my rich ?? i dont even live in SAUDI, so what does rich/poor have to do with current topic ?

thank god you said it finally and i quote :

but they use that willingly as an excuse to further their own political agenda

atleast you agree that it has nothing to do with quran or its teachings....it all political issues

Virani, where you belong, the gate of independant reasoning is closed for you because your clerics rule your lives, this means you accept their "doctrines" and not of our Prophet...the reasoning is simple..to help those in power to stay in power for ever and they roost over you...

only allah[swt] rules my life...no mullah,imam[as] or even rasool[as] has that right except allah[swt]

Now Muslims claim..! One Allah, One Quran, One Nabi....!

So then where their "Great unity" ?

i ask you the same question sister.....wheres the unity between our own sect ??pulling somebodies legs just because he/she believes in quran and itrat is this what you call unity ??

look in your closet first before blaming others !!!

Among Muslims, Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim countries.

The religious riot in most Muslim countries is always between these two sects.

i totally agree with you sister, but you should know the root cause......lemme tell you sister that the cause is very simple yet problematic...please bear with me

the problem is that the sunnis think that quran is everything and sunnah is enough and the shia's think that quran[present] has flaws

now in order to cure this disease the best thing to do is respect the holy imams[as] of shias and respect the holy quran[present] ...but thats not the case

take our example sister !.....you being an ismaili believe in imamat but you think that the present quran has some flaws.....me being an ismaili believe in quran[present] and itrat !....we go to JK...when people from the same sect are fighting what could you expect from other shia and sunni brothers

read the post i even told znanwalla to stop tagging holy quran but she dint....now when you dont whatelse could you expect ??? our imam e zaman talks about pluralism sister.....is this what you call pluralism ??? hurting others sentiments just to prove your stand ?? then when somebody requests you kindly not to use such terms you show your fury on them .....in other words disrespect them...call them infidels/ people with no light etc etc .....is this what you call pluralism ??

you yourself are not following what our imam e zaman has commanded us and here you are talking some crap about the holy quran without even acquiring proper knowledge.....but when pushed to the corner [just like zznoor asked you to show one aayat] you simply run as if your bumms are on fire ! Is this what you call pluralism ???

if our muslim brothers have died in afghanistan/iraq or some other place would you blame quran for that ????

is it not the same quran that tell us that killing even one INNOCENT human being is as if killing the whole humankind ???

how can you blame the ummah and quran in particular for what is happening today ?

The American attack on Iraq was supported by most of the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq ! - a million people must have died !

what does it even have to do with holy quran ??? did quran tell them to kill those innocent people ? NO !!

and those who were partners in this sister.....no matter muslim or non muslim will be equally punished sister....they are cursed in this life and insha allah in the life here after

And when it is said to them: Follow what ALLAH has sent down, they say:

"Not that! But we will follow what we found our fathers upon". What? Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance? The parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls; but they hear nothing, except a call and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, so they understand not". (The Holy Qur'an 2 Al- Baqarah 170-171).

well actually sister, its not them....right now its you who are trying to act like a deaf,dumb and blind girl who could not prove 1 single flaw from holy quran and yet here you are blaming others which is not even related to current topic !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:05 pm

znanwalla AKA zina[ unlawful sex ]

Virani AKA zzNoor

"sister, once again you have proved us that you know nothing !!!
can you please tell us when did this so called SYED sahebs quran was introduced ?? which year was that ?

Holy Quran (puya) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"The Holy Quran" is the name of a well known Shi'a twelver tafsir, translated by Sayed Mir Ahmed Ali with a comprehensive Introduction and extensive ...
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Amazon.com: The Noble Qur'an (9781874216360): Abdalhaqq Bewley ...

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sister, can you please give us the link to the quran translated my ahmed saheb which we can browse for free !

the thing is we dont wanna spend money on the translation where you find the same surahs and aayats as that of present[uthmanic as per you] quran.

and do you call this mir.ahmed saheb's book as imam e zaman's book ??? is this why you want us to read this book ?

where is imam e zamans quran ? kindly show us at least 2 surahs from that !

6:38 (Picktall) There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.

74:35 (Picktall) Lo! this is one of the greatest (portents) -

45:6 (Picktall) These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?

6:114 (Picktall) Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:08 pm

Today in the Occident, the Muslim world is deeply misunderstood by most. The West knows little about its diversity, about the religion or the principles which unite it, about its brilliant past or its recent trajectory through history. The Muslim world is noted in the West, North America and Europe, more for the violence of certain minorities than for the peacefulness of its faith and the vast majority of its people.

Mawlana Hazar Imam
[Brown Univ. 1996]

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:38 pm

Virani,

stop quoting the Imam's speeches to give us all the lie of the land that you are an Ismaili....secondly you are saying.."this is what happens when you read the present quran[uthmanic as per you] without any understanding.....now since you were not aware of those 9 signs you dint even tried to figure out what they were and hence as usual blaming me of tampering the verses.....".....

Rather it is you who is doing just that and Zina showed all of us clearly how you had added portions to the ayats to make your own fabrications and help people understand how you guys fool the world....

And also a personal attack based on her name is obnoxious indeed.... has ....don't ever believe that only "potty mouths like you can talk..."....Zina's name is Zinat but whilst registering the complete name wasn't available and so the name had to be shortened to enable a registrtaion with Yahoo...in any case the name does not matter....like many of your names are derived from where? from the pagans of arabia? names like Umar and Abidi and Aboo bakr existed long before Islam came into existence and so all the pagans of arabia with all their animal behaviour came lock stock and barrel into islam ...and the names were adopted....for example Abidi means a sodomite in my lingo....in yours it could mean an angel...so? cut your crap and stop your obfuscation....I have just come across a piece of dialogue on you tube where you have actually maligned the Imam and called him a playboy and where you have also raised the issue of 12.5% dason which ismailis offer to their Imam....I have just sent the piece for review to a couple of folks ...I will bring this out to show people your true colours....so keep on barking !

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:05 pm

sister, can you please give us the link to the quran translated my ahmed saheb which we can browse for free

stop wasting my time...you challenged us about a Sh'ia text and a Sufi text pretending it never existed...we showed you the evidence it does exist and majority of the Sh'ias follow it....if you want the link go and find it pal...or ask the Wahabbis to spend some more petro dollars for you...after all they are the desperate ones whose desire is to dominate through obfuscation and fabrication of "Islam" but what they follow is that of Shaikeen NOT of our beloved Prophet SAW...read my article just posted on them....more to follow to show you your holes...

Muslims of the twenty-first century should beware of the renewed onslaught on their beliefs being conducted today from within our Communities all in the name of Qur'an and Sunna,but actually supported by certain regimes pursuing specific ideologies, they are taking over the mosques built by Ahl al-Sunna in Europe and North America - mostly immigrants who succumb to petro dollars-- by means of elections and fundings -the reality of such beliefs is different from those of the main body of Muslims!

The Imam of the time is the EXCLUSIVE authority in religious matters and thus without his guidance nobody can stay on the "straight path".

This "Ilm" or special knowledge includes both the "Zahir" and the "Batin" meanings of the noble Quran and these two fundamentals namely "Nass" and "Ilm" are fused thoroughly into a unitary vision of religious leadership that it is impossible to separate one from the other and so NASS means transmission of that special knowledge which has been exclusively and legitimately restricted to only the Divinely favoured Imams of the House of the Prophet through Hazrat Ali.

Now bark more and I will tell you more !

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:45 pm

'...now in order to cure this disease the best thing to do is respect the holy imams[as] of shias and respect the holy quran[present] ...but thats not the case....

Tell us which "Holy Imams"? the Asnasheria Imams? The Bohra Imams? or the Ismaili Imams? we know you love to talk from all ends...as far as I know the Sh'ias claim that the Imams are with the Quran and the Quran is with the Imams...and so if they follow the Imams then the issue of respecting the quran does not arise....also according to the Sh'ias the TWo weighty things are infact the Imams and the Quran and so your analysis is faulty as always and rife with innuendo.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:48 pm

well actually sister, its not them....right now its you who are trying to act like a deaf,dumb and blind girl who could not prove 1 single flaw from holy quran

Really? how many times can someone prove the same thing ! you are confusing your wahabbi texts as being the quran....Znan and I will show you what the Ahl al Sunna scholars think of your beliefs....

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:56 pm

Virani,

stop quoting the Imam's speeches to give us all the lie of the land that you are an Ismaili....secondly you are saying.."this is what happens when you read the present quran[uthmanic as per you] without any understanding.....now since you were not aware of those 9 signs you dint even tried to figure out what they were and hence as usual blaming me of tampering the verses.....".....

Rather it is you who is doing just that and Zina showed all of us clearly how you had added portions to the ayats to make your own fabrications and help people understand how you guys fool the world....

ha ha ha.....sister znanwalla AKA zina , first of all try to atleast read @ above post before you write sooo much junk !!

she said where did 9 signs [hand,staff etc etc] came from in the following surah 17 .....well the problem is she oops !! i mean you just mentioned 9 signs[copy/pasting from a christian site] which is just fine with us ! but she couldnt tell people those 9 signs, hence i wrote those 9 signs with their names...you call it fooling people ?????????????????

so do you mean to say that those 9 signs are different from that of which i showed you ?

as i told you last time , STOP MAKING FOOL OF YOURSELF.........not only did i showed you those 9 signs with their names, i even proved them from the same holy quran [uthmanic as per you] !

run znanwalla AKA zina... TRUTH IS ALWAYS BITTER SISTER

....

And also a personal attack based on her name is obnoxious indeed.... has ....don't ever believe that only "potty mouths like you can talk..."....Zina's name is Zinat but whilst registering the complete name wasn't available and so the name had to be shortened to enable a registrtaion with Yahoo...in any case the name does not matter....like many of your names are derived from where? from the pagans of arabia? names like Umar and Abidi and Aboo bakr existed long before Islam came into existence and so all the pagans of arabia with all their animal behaviour came lock stock and barrel into islam ...and the names were adopted....for example Abidi means a sodomite in my lingo....in yours it could mean an angel...so? cut your crap and stop your obfuscation....I have just come across a piece of dialogue on you tube where you have actually maligned the Imam and called him a divine and where you have also raised the issue of 12.5% dason which ismailis offer to their Imam....I have just sent the piece for review to a couple of folks ...I will bring this out to show people your true colours....so keep on barking !

you're correct sister, from the same potty mouth of yours ...you abused quran e paak......from the same potty mouth you called muslim brothers/sisters of other branch infidels and god knows whatelse.

well zina as per arabic is [unlawful sex] , go see for yourself....now since you dont have sense in chosing names....got knows how you'll defend your own faith ! yet here you're having a senseless arguement

oh so she did tell you that the i.d is unavailable or you were sitting right beside her ???

i have said something on youtube ??? YOU NUTS !!!
i dont even know how to post a video on youtube....for allah's[swt] sake stop lying !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:13 pm

sister, can you please give us the link to the quran translated my ahmed saheb which we can browse for free

stop wasting my time...you challenged us about a Sh'ia text and a Sufi text pretending it never existed...we showed you the evidence it does exist and majority of the Sh'ias follow it....if you want the link go and find it pal...or ask the Wahabbis to spend some more petro dollars for you...after all they are the desperate ones whose desire is to dominate through obfuscation and fabrication of "Islam" but what they follow is that of Shaikeen NOT of our beloved Prophet SAW...read my article just posted on them....more to follow to show you your holes...

what? when did i said shia and sufi text ?? when sister ? kindly show me where did i asked you to show me shia text or sufi ?

all i asked you was show us the quran of IMAM E ZAMAN , if you have any !! and since you dont you simply tried to side track and show us some syed sahebs quran translation......is this syed saheb you imam e zaman ??

so is imam e zamans quran same as that of syed sahebs ??

Muslims of the twenty-first century should beware of the renewed onslaught on their beliefs being conducted today from within our Communities all in the name of Qur'an and Sunna,but actually supported by certain regimes pursuing specific ideologies, they are taking over the mosques built by Ahl al-Sunna in Europe and North America - mostly immigrants who succumb to petro dollars-- by means of elections and fundings -the reality of such beliefs is different from those of the main body of Muslims!

exactly ! those who try to kill innocent cannot be a muslim in first place !...and it need not have to be petro dollars only sister....the ISI of pakistan send spies to INDIA and vice-versa...do you blame saudi for that ? NO!!!

its all cheap politics !!

it had nothing to do with religion not do i favor those who brain wash innocent kids who try to blow themselves up...this is not what quran teaches us !

quran itself is a symbol of pluralism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Imam of the time is the EXCLUSIVE authority in religious matters and thus without his guidance nobody can stay on the "straight path".

if imam e zaman has got the sole religious authority, who the hell are you to call quran e paak with names ? The only authority to interpret faith belongs to imam e zaman so kindly shut your potty mouth with which you abuse quran because my imam e zaman never ever said anything against holy quran...infact he used the same quran which you call uthmanic is various speeches !

This "Ilm" or special knowledge includes both the "Zahir" and the "Batin" meanings of the noble Quran and these two fundamentals namely "Nass" and "Ilm" are fused thoroughly into a unitary vision of religious leadership that it is impossible to separate one from the other and so NASS means transmission of that special knowledge which has been exclusively and legitimately restricted to only the Divinely favoured Imams of the House of the Prophet through Hazrat Ali.

Now bark more and I will tell you more !

lol, now you jumped on zahir and batin ??
khair atleast show me the quran which is with imam e zaman and then we'll see zahir and batin in that.....if you are true ismaili muslimah....i challenge you to show me atleast 1 surah from the quran of holy imam e zaman...which you claim possess and if you can then ill leave you in peace

if you cant then simply stop barking !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:42 pm

well actually sister, its not them....right now its you who are trying to act like a deaf,dumb and blind girl who could not prove 1 single flaw from holy quran

Really? how many times can someone prove the same thing ! you are confusing your wahabbi texts as being the quran....Znan and I will show you what the Ahl al Sunna scholars think of your beliefs....

who are ahl al sunna ? COUNCIL MEMBERS ??

you havent proved even a single thing yet....all you did was trying to change the topic ASAP so that the whole attention should be diverted to other issue ...and when somebody pushes you to the corner...you cry out the same song as you did @ above

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO PROVE YOU

well sister zina , oops zinat ...you havent proved anything yet...all you showed us is/was your ignorance

@ below will not only shut your foolish mentality, but will also make you realise that what you're trying to teach my brothers and sisters is completely against what imam e zaman is saying :

I am a Muslim and Muslims believe that all men are equal no matter what the colour of their skin and I am therefore fundamentally opposed to apartheid in any form. I would wish to emphasize that Islam is probably the most multi-racial faith existing.

[Interview] 11 Nov. 1970
-- Aga Khan IV

I think we have difficulty making people around the world realise what is the Islamic World. One should not confuse Sub-Saharan Africa with Central Asia. One should not confuse Central Asia with countries of Asia such as Malaysia and Indonesia. These are different peoples, with different histories, that have been converted to Islam at different times, that have evolved since then, that have different languages, that have different interpretations.

[LBC Interview]
-- Aga Khan IV

The cultural contexts in which over one billion Muslims have been reared and shaped are simply not understood in much of the world. Even the most basic elements of 1400 years of Islamic civilization are absent from the curricula in most of the world's schools. The subject is just not on the world's educational radar screen. And the result is an enormous vacuum

[Cape Town 1996]
-- Aga Khan IV

What does it (the West) know about the Islamic world? Is anything taught in secondary education? Does anybody know the names of the great philosophers, the scientists, the great theologians? Do they even know the names of the great civilizations?

[Interview 2 Feb. 2002"]
-- Aga Khan IV

now this brothers and sisters is my mawla who is the defender of islam....the 49th lord [living shah/pir]...manifestation of allah[swt]'s grace....a rope of allah[swt] that stretches down to earth.

THIS IS MY IMAM

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:08 am

Virani,

You started off as an Ismaili....then on the sly began to talk like a Sunni...suddenly you shifted your gears to talk like a pious Sh'ia and now you are back to being an ismaili...whom are you fooling?

You have clearly maligned the Imam on You tube and elsewhere...I have requested one of the member to send the evidence to the Admin for review...

Now which Ismaili in his or her right frame of mind will reject ALL ahadith including the famous FOUR which had been posted earlier on and which you swept under the carpet?...

Please ask any Ismaili if they reject ALL the ahadith? No ! if they do then they have rejected the Sunna and one who rejects the Sunna of the Prophet rejects the Prophet and his family....Yes! many ahadith are forged...but not all and so you are trying to infilterate, gain trust of the people and then you want to slowly undermine and destruct...

You said that muslims should follow ALL Sh'ia Imams ...prior to that you were obnoxious in your determination to promote the "uthmanic text" even claiming felicitously that the Imam was reading it and that the ismailis were following it....

Now which Sh'ia or Ismaili does not know that Sh'ias do have their own texts and their own Imams ?

When we told you about this you acted up and wanted evidence? when evidence was given you again acted up and said you want to read it for free....you are only fooling yourself....

Nobody else here is a fool....ask the ismailis if they accept this claim that you make about people following All Sh'ia Imams? will they? No !

Do the Asnasheris follow ismaili Imams ? No ! so just the fact that you recommend muslims to follow the Sh'ia Imams and follow the Sunni version of the quran, in itself betrays your dishonesty and falsehoods....

Muslims are all equal save in piety ! and so do not mix your apples with your oranges....spiritually no person is equal with the other...and the Imam is talking of equality in this material world....all spiritual obligations are individual and specific and no soul is liable for any other soul and the determination is based on TAQWA....

All ismailis will tell you this as being true and factual.....you are proving that many things you have said is not what an ismaili would say....

So the conclusion is that you are NOT an ismaili....you could not even answer the question :

a) as to which SURA Allah had asked muslims to recite as a Du'a...

b) You could not answer the question as to what the ismaili Du'a acknowledges?....

c)You could not answer what the Ismaili Shahada is?

d)You could not explain the Pillars of faith which ismailis have?

e)You falsely claimed that Walaya was their first pillar !

f)You falsely claimed that the ismailis follow their practice from the Sunni version of the quranic text...

g)You claimed you were from Houston and that in a JK you go to, they have the arrangements for Wudzoo but whether others have this or not you do not know...well, let me tell you something....we called Houston and spoke to someone who not only knows most of the Ismailis over there but he confirmed that you were out to lunch and fooling us and there was anyone by the name of "Shiraz Virani" in Houston...so you are a liar ! Then we called vancouver and checked...Yes! there is one JK where this arrangement is available and the reasoning was given to us and makes sense....but as an ismaili you do not even know that everyone must abide by this concept of Wudzoo which is a quranic dictate....

"...now this brothers and sisters is my mawla who is the defender of islam....the 49th lord [living shah/pir]...manifestation of allah[swt]'s grace....a rope of allah[swt] that stretches down to earth..."

Yes! but your words, actions, arguments and pattern shows you are merely making a verbal profession of this in order to mislead and derail....your tactics will not work with us pal....hereinabove I have shown the flaws in your submissions and circular behaviour....the record speaks for itself.....infact on Youtube you have called the Imam a "playboy" who takes 12.5% from ismailis and.....never mind...let this suffice for now !

g)you feigned ignorance about the Sh'ia texts....full of contradictions, obfuscation and melodrama on your part....

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:25 pm

Virani,

You started off as an Ismaili....then on the sly began to talk like a Sunni...suddenly you shifted your gears to talk like a pious Sh'ia and now you are back to being an ismaili...whom are you fooling?

nobody ! infact its you who'z trying to twist and turn the topic by asking the same repeated questions and the moment i answer it you come with zina khan and post bookooo garbage by changing the topic to jews/ iraq etc etc

so whom are you fooling sister ?

You have clearly maligned the Imam on You tube and elsewhere...I have requested one of the member to send the evidence to the Admin for review...

you're most welcome to send anything to Admin, as far as allah[swt] knows i havent written or pasted anything against quran/IMAM[as] or rasool[saw] anywhere !!!

truth always prevails sister ! now since you cant answer my question the best thing to do is kick me out !!! isnt it ???

just because of people like you , we[ismailis] have to suffer

Now which Ismaili in his or her right frame of mind will reject ALL ahadith including the famous FOUR which had been posted earlier on and which you swept under the carpet?...

for the simple fact that everything is mentioned in quran !!! i aint no loser to look for imamat in some man made hadiths when i have hadith of allah[swt] which talks about imamat clearly !

losers like you need to prove their stand from fabrications not the momins who not only follow imam e zaman but also the book of allah[swt]...

and as far as i know those were the last words of our beloved rasool[saw] i.e ....quran[book] and itrat[ holy ahle bait]....but i guess you chose later so that you can fight like a mad dog on different forum or websites like youtube....way to go sister !!!

Please ask any Ismaili if they reject ALL the ahadith? No ! if they do then they have rejected the Sunna and one who rejects the Sunna of the Prophet rejects the Prophet and his family....Yes! many ahadith are forged...but not all and so you are trying to infilterate, gain trust of the people and then you want to slowly undermine and destruct...

does that even make sense ?? just because a person does not wanna believe in hadiths he'z not SHIA IMAMI ISMAILI [NIZARI] MUSLIM ? and again those who believe in quran are not ismaili muslims ? i feel sad for you sister, allah[swt] knows the best that how many people might have actually believed in you lame talk ....may allah[swt] protect them !

if at all my intention was to destruct , you would have seen my writing something about imam e zaman just like you hubby MEHERALI does....but unfortunately just because you have nothing else to say , you simply start this blame game...which you aka ZINA is good at....so continue you good work and let my brothers and sisters read this topic and realise themselves......TRUTH ALWAYS STANDS OUT !!!

You said that muslims should follow ALL Sh'ia Imams ...prior to that you were obnoxious in your determination to promote the "uthmanic text" even claiming felicitously that the Imam was reading it and that the ismailis were following it....

absolutely ! if not then kindly tell us how is it possible that the compilation of quran which was done by great companions and the compilation that was done by imams[as] can be same ??

how it is possible that not 1, not 2 but all 7 surah mentioned in our holy dua matches to that of present quran [ uthmanic as per you] ???

when you dont know the answers atlest go and ask a missionary saheb or biggies [council members] ? why simply come here and write sooo much stuff [which is usually copied from salman spiritual or some christian site] ?

i respect the holy imams[as] but i also believe in the holy quran....now if thats a sin and if iam treated as a non ismaili muslim then sister ...BE IT ! ...theres a saying , GOD SEE'S THE TRUTH BUT WAITS....thats what hes doing with you right now...the poison that you're trying to spread in the hearts of my brothers and sisters will be lethal for your ownself in future...because you try to scheme but allah[swt] is the best schemer !

Now which Sh'ia or Ismaili does not know that Sh'ias do have their own texts and their own Imams ?

the topic is quran and not hadiths or some texts....even if you wanna follow it, you're most welcome but atleast show some respect to quran.

all i asked you was to show the quran of imam e zaman and instead of showing that....you gave us the link that leads us to ishna shari site whom mir.ahmed is attached with.....we are not ishna sharis !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if at all you have or know anything about imam e zamans quran you would have copy/pasted it by now...but thats not the case...as usual you try to divert the attention of readers as you did @ BELOW.....changing the track and asking the same repeated questions !

When we told you about this you acted up and wanted evidence? when evidence was given you again acted up and said you want to read it for free....you are only fooling yourself....

sister i asked about the quran of imam e zaman and not mir ahmed sahebs or syed saheb who were ishna shari [not ismaili]....my imam e zaman is not ishna shari imam , he is present ....so kindly show us the quran of imam e zaman sister !!

Nobody else here is a fool....ask the ismailis if they accept this claim that you make about people following All Sh'ia Imams? will they? No !

those who follow quran need not have to ask to anyone....everything is mentioned in quran...those who believe in quran and imamat...they dont run behind man made hadiths sister !

and even if they believe in hadiths iam totally fine with that but why say something against quran ??

and nobody has said anything against quran, except you sister....so why are you groping others into the sew where you live ??

Do the Asnasheris follow ismaili Imams ? No ! so just the fact that you recommend muslims to follow the Sh'ia Imams and follow the Sunni version of the quran, in itself betrays your dishonesty and falsehoods....

sunni version ?? DOES QURAN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SUNNI ?? or did allah[swt] said its a sunni quran ???

whom are you trying to fool sister ? first it was a fairy tale, then it became uthmanic and now its sunni quran...lol , first decide what is it and then we shall proceed.

if its a sunni quran then how come we find imamat in it ??

Muslims are all equal save in piety ! and so do not mix your apples with your oranges....spiritually no person is equal with the other...and the Imam is talking of equality in this material world....all spiritual obligations are individual and specific and no soul is liable for any other soul and the determination is based on TAQWA....

again going against imam e zaman !! now you call this firmanbadari ? spiritually every single creature [living] has gods spirit in him....which is understood !

did you see imam e zaman talking about physical/spiritual in his speech ? then why say something which is as usual out of context !

All ismailis will tell you this as being true and factual.....you are proving that many things you have said is not what an ismaili would say....

talk about your ownself sister....as i said last time dont try to push my brothers and sisters into a sew where you live !

So the conclusion is that you are NOT an ismaili

so you're a CHOTA IMAM now !! or allah[swt] nouzbillah who knows what iam and what iam not

....you could not even answer the question :

a) as to which SURA Allah had asked muslims to recite as a Du'a...

i already showed you an aayat from the same book of allah[swt] in my previous post where he said that we can recite anything from quran but the best way to please allah[swt] is to believe in him.

b) You could not answer the question as to what the ismaili Du'a acknowledges?....

again the same question ?? khair , the dua acknowledges imamat, prophethood and in 1st part/ 6th part [tawhid]....but majority of it is on imamat !

plus the aayat are not complete aayat its only a portion of it !

for ex : obey allah[swt], obey rasool[saw] and those vested with authority[as]....now this is only a portion of an aayat and not the complete aayat !

c)You could not answer what the Ismaili Shahada is?

lailaha ilallah, muhammadur rasoolullah, aliunamirul momineed aliullah .....this is what i recite in my dua i.e after the tasbih

i hope you dont worship mir ahmed saheb now that you got his translation

d)You could not explain the Pillars of faith which ismailis have?

7 pillars sister namely

Walayah - love devotion towards allah[swt], rasool[saw] and imam[as]

Tawhid - belief in one allah[swt]

Salah - prayers [3 times]

Zakah - Charity

Sawm - fasting [imam does this on every ramdan]

Hajj - pilgrimage [ getting a glimpse of imam e zaman, but there is no restictions for those who wanna go to kaaba sharif, for eg : MATA SALAMAT who visited the holy kaaba during the lifetime of imam sultan muhammad shah[as]

Jihad - Struggle

please try to copy/paste this in your notepad if you could as i cannot type it again and again !!!

e)You falsely claimed that Walaya was their first pillar !

absolutely !...without walayah there is no ismaili foundation !

f)You falsely claimed that the ismailis follow their practice from the Sunni version of the quranic text...

absolutely, the biggest fact is the quran this is found in our jamatkhana !....the surahs and aayats of the quran found in JK matches exactly with that of present quran [uthmanic as per you] ...but you still wanna cry like a baby about that !

g)You claimed you were from Houston and that in a JK you go to, they have the arrangements for Wudzoo but whether others have this or not you do not know...well, let me tell you something....we called Houston and spoke to someone who not only knows most of the Ismailis over there but he confirmed that you were out to lunch and fooling us and there was anyone by the name of "Shiraz Virani" in Houston...so you are a liar ! Then we called vancouver and checked...Yes! there is one JK where this arrangement is available and the reasoning was given to us and makes sense....but as an ismaili you do not even know that everyone must abide by this concept of Wudzoo which is a quranic dictate....

ha ha ha ha

my dearest sister.....i migrated to houston couple of years ago ....my home town is INDIA [ hyderabad ] .....please call the local council of southern india and kindly ask the chairman who is shiraz virani...which board was he affiliated to....but the most importana part !!!

do they have wudzoo khana !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the wudzoo khana is nice and clean which is maintained by a very kind jamatbhai [may allah[swt] give him janaah for his service]...with an awesome facility for those who come directly from their businesses and who wanna do wudzoo.....there are taps located near the ground[knee length] with an underground drainage system, so that a person can wash his legs upto knees....then you have a basin where you can wash you elbows ,hand etc etc....during my time i.e 2 years ago they used to hang towel near the entrance i dunno whether they do the same now !

having said all this sister you are free to ask any person living in hyderabad about this or even contact noorudin bhai who was chairman of southern india at that time ! [regional council if iam not mistaken]

Only if you would have asked i would have told you ! but the problem is you just wanna have an arguement on almost everything !

"...now this brothers and sisters is my mawla who is the defender of islam....the 49th lord [living shah/pir]...manifestation of allah[swt]'s grace....a rope of allah[swt] that stretches down to earth..."

Yes! but your words, actions, arguments and pattern shows you are merely making a verbal profession of this in order to mislead and derail....your tactics will not work with us pal....hereinabove I have shown the flaws in your submissions and circular behaviour....the record speaks for itself.....infact on Youtube you have called the Imam a "divine" who takes 12.5% from ismailis and.....never mind...let this suffice for now !

again the same stuff

how many times do i have to tell you that its not me on youtube !
i dont even know how to post on youtube !

g)you feigned ignorance about the Sh'ia texts....full of contradictions, obfuscation and melodrama on your part....

lol , look who's talking !!!

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:50 pm

"... infact its you who'z trying to twist and turn the topic by asking the same repeated questions and the moment i answer ..."

The record speaks for itself ! I have shown enough flaws and incongruity in your postings....it cannot even be co incidental ! unless you are mentally infirm...Allah knows best !

just because of people like you , we[ismailis] have to suffer

The reality is that it is because of people like us that the children of Iblis are suffering ....and are being thwarted !

Ta'wil of word 'Hâdin' (Guide, Imâm):

"It is said in verse (13:7): "Verily you are a warner, and to every nation (qawm) there is a guide." (See Shi'i translations and commentaries of the Qurân and the books on the Manâqib of Mawla Ali). From the time of Âdam till the Resurrection of resurrections, the people of every age are a nation and for every nation God has appointed a guide, who is the Imam of the time." [Source: Tawil 940: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Several verses in the Quran speak about the Light of God and Rope of Imamat which is a continuous chain (Hablillah) since Hazrat Adam, through all the Prophets including, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and after him through the hereditary Imams.....yet you are trying to convince ismailis to follow ALL Sh'ia Imams and the Sunni version of the quran....how felicitous indeed ! Your "Imam" Maherally recently engaged us in another forum and came out loud and boisterous like you....we have sent him back to his pig sty to rot !

Imamat is a perpetuality ! even if there are only two people left on this earth, there has to be an Imam present ...and so how can you even ask ismailis to follow ALL Imams?

[18:57] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing.

Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus they can never ever be guided.

Amir ul Momineen frequently said:

"By Allah,no verse has been sent down without my knowing about whom or what it was revealed and where it was revealed.

"Ask me about the Book of Allah,for by Allah,there is no verse about which I do not know whether it was sent down at night or during the day,or whether it was revealed on a plain or in a mountain....."...and you are trying to convince the ismailis that they should be reading your interpolations....you are a joker !

5: 11 Those who reject faith And deny Our Signs Will be Companions Of Hell-fire. ...that is where you belong with your maherally

5: 17 There hath come to you From Allah a (new) light And a perspicuous Book....bring me this perspicous Book or concede and give up !

It is clear ! the Book is not enough

!"And all things WE have created by pairs...that haply ye may reflect..." (Sura al Dhariyat)...

It is clear it is the LIGHT (Nooran Mobeen) and the Book and I mean the Perspicous Book of Allah which the Prophet gave to Ali (SAS) !

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:02 pm

....my home town is INDIA [ hyderabad ] .....please call the local council of southern india

Ah ! no wonder ....the slums are affecting you brother....you were emphatic that you came from Houston and people were free to check....now you have moved to India....so when are you moving to the caves of afghanistan?

9: 64 The Hypocrites are afraid Lest a Sura should be sent down About them showing them what Is (really passing) in their hearts. Say:"Mock ye! But verily Allah will bring to Light all That ye fear (should be revealed)."....you are asking who is AHL al SUNNAH...so you are trying to poke at the Sunnis pretending you are an Ismaili so that the reciprocal is directed towards them ...right? are you not a fitnati?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:20 pm

Quote:
"... infact its you who'z trying to twist and turn the topic by asking the same repeated questions and the moment i answer ..."

The record speaks for itself ! I have shown enough flaws and incongruity in your postings....it cannot even be co incidental ! unless you are mentally infirm...Allah knows best !

looool, you're correct the record speaks for itself ...you said you have shown flaws ???

well if yes then how come you use references from the very same quran @ below and in another topic on mukhiyani ??

A FOOL ALWAYS SPEAKS FIRST AND THEN THINK -imam ali[as]

so true !!! you reject quran, then you post quranic aayats from the same quran and then again you reject the holy quran

allah[swt] is great for he knows who is mentally unstable and who is speaking truth

Quote:
just because of people like you , we[ismailis] have to suffer

The reality is that it is because of people like us that the children of Iblis are suffering ....and are being thwarted !

are you sure ??? because right now its you who is speaking against quran

when did i said that imam is not a guide ?? infact iam the one who said quran supports imamat

stop showing us your hypocrite side sister because at one stage you reject present quran and on other hand you copy/paste the very same quran..

Quote:
Imamat is a perpetuality ! even if there are only two people left on this earth, there has to be an Imam present ...and so how can you even ask ismailis to follow ALL Imams?

all imams = from imam ali[as] to the present imam !!

do you see 2 imams on this planet today ?? there is only 1 imam who is 49th in line

all i said was respect all the imams = shia = 1st to 49th , whats wrong with that ??

again trying to twist the topic ??? ...............AS USUAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
[18:57] Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing.

Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus they can never ever be guided.

@ above aayat if found in present quran[uthmanic as per you] , which you think is fabricated....yet you post the same quran to prove you stand....HOW DUMB !

Quote:
Amir ul Momineen frequently said:

"By Allah,no verse has been sent down without my knowing about whom or what it was revealed and where it was revealed.

"Ask me about the Book of Allah,for by Allah,there is no verse about which I do not know whether it was sent down at night or during the day,or whether it was revealed on a plain or in a mountain....."...and you are trying to convince the ismailis that they should be reading your interpolations....you are a joker !

well right from the start sister the title of JOKER is with you...because you dont know what to follow in first place

hadith/quran or imamat ???

Quote:
5: 11 Those who reject faith And deny Our Signs Will be Companions Of Hell-fire. ...that is where you belong with your maherally

5: 17 There hath come to you From Allah a (new) light And a perspicuous Book....bring me this perspicous Book or concede and give up !

It is clear ! the Book is not enough

ok siser but ill pray for you that may allah[swt] have mercy upon you

Quote:
!"And all things WE have created by pairs...that haply ye may reflect..." (Sura al Dhariyat)...

It is clear it is the LIGHT (Nooran Mobeen) and the Book and I mean the Perspicous Book of Allah which the Prophet gave to Ali (SAS) !

and when did i said that the light and quran is different ?
infact its you whos crying from day one that quran is incomplete , not me !!!!

its you who have problem with the quran not me !!!

and look at your hypocrisy, at one stage you dont wanna believe in quran and on other hand you are copy/pasting the same quran[uthmanic as per you]

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:25 pm

9: 64 The Hypocrites are afraid Lest a Sura should be sent down About them showing them what Is (really passing) in their hearts. Say:"Mock ye! But verily Allah will bring to Light all That ye fear (should be revealed)."....

again copy/pasting the same quran which you call incomplete ??? you're the biggest hypocrite living on this planet sister !!

you are asking who is AHL al SUNNAH...so you are trying to poke at the Sunnis pretending you are an Ismaili so that the reciprocal is directed towards them ...right? are you not a fitnati?

look who'z talking again !!

you the one who started the fight by saying something against quran not me !!

you the one who could not prove me why we have the same quran in our jamatkhana ......yes ! the house of imam ali[as] ...remember surah noor ??

dont forget , FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:37 pm

so true !!! you reject quran, then you post quranic aayats from the same quran and then again you reject the holy quran

I have never rejected the quran...rather I have been categorical in this regard that muslims have no obligation whatsoever to follow texts which are man made and interpolated ....they should only follow the quran of God as revealed to Muhamad SAW and which is with his family ! Now how much more clear can I be?

As opposed to this, you want all ismailis to read the Uthmanic text and follow all Sh'ia Imams and then you make felicitous declarations which are simply meaningless and insincere....but even using your own texts I am showing you how inferior you are...as a muslim....being an ismaili is out of question....

In fact, ALLAH (swt) sent a warning not to follow blindly, but to use wisdom and understanding to follow the true guidance of ALLAH Azz wa Jall.

Since the creation of man, man has been a victim of blind imitation of silly superstitions, untruths and heresies. ...plus there is abundance of prostitutes all around us who have sold their faith for a pittance and are now happy to serve as "lapdogs"

Just look at how many things and conducts in today's society are based on superstitions and corruption.

ALLAH (swt) wanted to give out a warning to the Ummah about falling into the trap of following such untruths and corruption blindly.

Allah even states that those who turn away from the truth and choose to follow their desires or the desires of their relatives, friends, leaders, etc. blindly ...who don't have knowledge, are as the beasts who do not understand the true meaning of existence and follow only the meaningless cries and calls.

Our question is what is the meaning of "Follow what ALLAH has sent down" (The Holy Qur'an 2-170)

You are saying Uthmanic text and all Sh'ia Imams ! now like I said you are a Joker....

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:40 pm

are you sure ??? because right now its you who is speaking against quran

when did i said that imam is not a guide ?? infact iam the one who said quran supports imamat

The problem is that you speak sometimes also from the rear end, apart from talking from both the ends of your mouth....and you talk so much that even you tend to forget what you had said....ismailis do not accept any other Imamat ! period ! they respect the beliefs of people but they do not pursue their beliefs....and you claim to be an Ismaili? from where? which slums? and then you are saying people should follow the sunni version of the text....what nonsense? you are a stove full of trickery and contradictions and then you come back to waste our time...

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:46 pm

you the one who started the fight by saying something against quran not me !!

you the one who could not prove me why we have the same quran in our jamatkhana

Again you are saying the same thing ! there are dozens of texts and narrations...I have told you that Sh'ias follow their own texts and additionally also the sufi text....you simply can't understand the reality.....also in the last so many years except in some specific areas I have seen the book in the JKs because the quran itself is present - the Natiq is ever present in his own house...and so as an ismaili you do not even know this concept just like you have no clue about the Du'a and the rites and rituals....plus nothing stops anyone from referring or cross referring any texts for education research or purpose....it seems you did not like my response on Mukhianisaheba....I bet you my last dollar, you have no ability to even write such qualitative responses....after all you now live in the slums...hope you do not spread swine flu to us...

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:37 pm

I have never rejected the quran...rather I have been categorical in this regard that muslims have no obligation whatsoever to follow texts which are man made and interpolated ....they should only follow the quran of God as revealed to Muhamad SAW and which is with his family ! Now how much more clear can I be?

and i already told you to stop using holy quran in your references because as per you it has flaws which you cant figure out !

and i ask you again, show me the quran if there is any other than present quran !!

if you can show me imam e zamans quran, ill leave you in peace !

so far you havent proved anything except abusing the holy book....and what is funny is you call it interpoled/man made but you follow some man made hadiths and call it authentic

As opposed to this, you want all ismailis to read the Uthmanic text and follow all Sh'ia Imams and then you make felicitous declarations which are simply meaningless and insincere....but even using your own texts I am showing you how inferior you are...as a muslim....being an ismaili is out of question....

sister i wont use bible to prove you that quran is complete will i ? so in order to show you that quran is complete , i have to show it from the same book !!

it is you sister who said the present book is not complete but yet you show us the verses from the same book !

In fact, ALLAH (swt) sent a warning not to follow blindly, but to use wisdom and understanding to follow the true guidance of ALLAH Azz wa Jall.

yes sister, and i agree with you

Since the creation of man, man has been a victim of blind imitation of silly superstitions, untruths and heresies. ...plus there is abundance of prostitutes all around us who have sold their faith for a pittance and are now happy to serve as "lapdogs"

and i feel completely helpless to this situation sister....it is really very unfortunate that we have our sisters who are pushed to an extent where there are hounds waiting to eat their flesh....but the thing is sister, to those allah[swt] bestow zillions and show their stingy side those people are cursed sister....no matter muslim or not.

but there are also some females and in particular muslim who do it for quick buck....as you said last time sister , allah[swt] guides only those he wants !

its on a person to choose what he/she wants to do ! [FREE WILL]

Just look at how many things and conducts in today's society are based on superstitions and corruption.

but sister what does quran have to do with all that ?
does it teach pakistan's president zardari to take extra 10% ? does it teach king abdullah to have lavish life style ?

NO!!!

infact i would like to quote what sultan muhammad shah[as] in his memoirs :

“All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally. This fraternity is absolute, and it comprises men of all colours and all races: black, white, yellow, tawny; all are the sons of Adam in the flesh and all carry in them spark of the Divine Light. Everyone should strive his best to see that this spark be not extinguished but rather developed to that full Companionship- on-High.”

if somebody is doing something wrong will blame the whole ummah for that ? or holy quran in particular ?

ALLAH (swt) wanted to give out a warning to the Ummah about falling into the trap of following such untruths and corruption blindly.

yes sister, and that warning he conveyed to us through an aayat mentioned in present quran

Allah even states that those who turn away from the truth and choose to follow their desires or the desires of their relatives, friends, leaders, etc. blindly ...who don't have knowledge, are as the beasts who do not understand the true meaning of existence and follow only the meaningless cries and calls.

exactly sister, i totally agree with you.....beasts who brainwash innocent children who themselves up....corrupt politicians for eg: mr.10% etc etc are all partners in crime....and falsehood doesnt last for long sister.....whatever you'll do will be written down and you'll be judged accordingly !

Our question is what is the meaning of "Follow what ALLAH has sent down" (The Holy Qur'an 2-170)

as usual quoting only a part of verse and not the whole aayat ,

now read in the name of allah[swt],

2:170 (Picktall) And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance?

the answer is = QURAN !!

what you quoted was only half aayat and not full....when you read the complete aayat its crystal clear that allah is talking about quran

You are saying Uthmanic text and all Sh'ia Imams ! now like I said you are a Joker....

again !! sister dont forget that you hold the title

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:40 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:....there are taps located near the ground[knee length] with an underground drainage system, so that a person can wash his legs upto knees....then you have a basin where you can wash you elbows ,hand etc etc...

So how far apart are these taps and the basin? I thought that muslims are to wash their feet upto their ankles for wadoo purposes. Whats the purpose of washing upto their knees?

Shiraz,

You may very well be an ismaili, may be an ex-ismaili, but the question is why some including me think that you are not in the fold anymore. Ever wondered yourself? I'll give you a hint. Take a break from this website and go read all your posts on this thread. Go as far back as you possibly can and see how many contradictory posts or statements you have made.
I dont care to list them here but I have pointed them out to you every now and then, if you paid attention.

As much love and devotion you showed towards the Imam in one breadth and in the next you have stripped him of every God given privilege giving the impression that your intent is not what you are preaching. Dasond is a fundamental in Ismaili tariqa just like Zakah is to you yet you have argued that dasond is only on left overs and even then only 2.5%. The 2.5% is pir's share. What happened to the 10% for the Imam? You mentioned in your previous post that you were on some kind of a board in India, may be tariqa board - then how come you faltered on a fundamental belief of dasond?

Do you believe all Imam's are one and the same? They all carry the same noor. If you said yes then my question to you is ; What did Imam Ali said in the battle of Siffin? Did he not say he was the speaking Quran? So how can someone be a "bolta Quran" if he does not have that imbedded onto his heart? You have argued that the Imam-e-Zaman does not have the Quran in him. These are just the two questions I have raised. I have a list 3 pages long for all your falterings.

On the one hand you speak about pluralism pointing fingers at others saying if "this is pluralism that our Imam speaks of" and then on the other hand you are doing exactly what you are charging others of doing that is unpluralistic attitudes. My brother, where is your wisdom? What is your intent? Where are you going with all your arguments? Although we are discussing the mess made by the scribes of the Noble Quran, you keep forgetting that everyone has a right to have their own opinions. We can all have differing views and still be brothers and sisters at the end of the day, like you once said. What happened to that? You started calling names to Zina Khan calling her "inappropriate sex". My brother, this does not suit someone with your knowledge, if you have any of your own. Do you know what Zina means and what are the origins of this name? Google it and find out. I do not want to put you to shame here on this board.

These are just a few incidences that I have observed. Deep in your heart you know well who you are and what your intentions are, which sadly I still question.