Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni

[znanwalla]

Viru,

It will take you a lifetime to be able to "slap" me....the best have tried and faltered....I have challenged you to move away from this forum and dialogue with me outside on a one to one basis where I will have no restrictions...neither you will have any....so what are you afraid of? are you not a man enough to take me on ?

"In the name of God the merciful and compassionate:

These are (fasl) the noble words of the Lord (Mawla)(upon Him peace); it is most excellent as an explanation.

My reverence is to my Lord (rabb), there is no God but He (the High (al-`ali), the Great)."

"Comrades (rufaqa), we have been absent from you by two absences, by that of potentiality (tamkin) and by that of actuality (rakwin); and we veiled ourselves from the earth of your knowledge (ma`rifa).

And the earth groaned and the heavens shook, and they said, O Creator of creatures, forgiving! And I appeared (zahartu) in Adam, and the da'wa was Eve - we assembled the hearts of the believers (mu'minin) the earth of whose hearts groaned in love for us; and we looked upon the heavens of their spirits in our mercy.

And the period (dawr) of Adam, and his da'wa passed; and his hujja disappeared, through our mercy, among the people."

"Then we appeared in the period of Noah, and the people were drowned in my da'wa; whoever trusted in my knowledge (ma`rifa) was saved by my mercy and grace, and whoever among the people denied my hujja perished."

"Then I appeared in the 'Ali of the time, and I was concealed (sutirtu) in Mohammed (or: concealed him?); and he who spoke of my knowledge (ma`rifa) was Salman.

"I am the master of what is (sâhib al-kawn); the dwelling is not empty of the ancient sprouts.

I am the witness, the spectator, dispenser (walî) of mercy in the beginning and the end.

Do not be misled by the changing of forms. You say, so-and-so passed, and so-and-so came; I tell you to consider the faces as all one face, as long as the master of existence (sâhib al-wujûd) is in existence, present, existent."

so you keep your fabrications with you !

[znanwalla]

"...Prophet Muhammad (saw) married 12 wives in his life. When he died he had 9 wives. They have a very special status in the hearts of Muslims as the “Mothers of the Believers,” as the Qur’an instructs, and they are the source of a great amount of wisdom which they learned while living close to such a great man..."

The Nabi had a christian wife and a wife with Jewish origin also? so if all were considered "mothers of the believers" then obviously we also have a christian and a Jewish mother? do you agree? and so what then is the quarrel with them about?

[znanwalla]

Viru says..."...with a meticulously preserved tradition in speech and actions in all minute details of his public and private life. Preserved in the sharp minds of his wives and his Companions, those narrations comprise the “daily life manual” for Muslims to follow until the end of time. The fact that Islam was spread on the shoulders of women and preserved in their hearts is a great honor to the females of this Ummah..."

Then you may have also read about the graphic physical details some of these "sharp" narrations have offered ? do you agree with them all? and ironically now you are somehow talking of "sharp" minds and meticulous preservation of a "daily life manual" etc etc and just a while ago you were whining that I was relying on ahadith and should not....double talk huh?

Even the most noble Messenger of Allah had no authority to innovate anything in matter of religion....but your ancestors fabricated and so now you are barking at me...

So now how can one claim to be following a DEEN when in actuality it is just a (cult) which is adulterated and manipulated?

To which school of thought did the Muslims belong to , after the fourth Caliph [H. Ali a.s.] until the appearance of the first Sunni Imam?

All these Imams appeared well over a century after the Holy Prophet (S) of Islam

It is a fact that none of these four Imams were present during the time of the Holy Prophet (S), nor had anyone of them met any of the Sahaba or the Companions of the Holy Prophet (S). ...am I right ?

So then how and from where did the four Ahlul Sunnah Imams gain their knowledge, information and the interpretation of the Holy Qur’an and the ahadith of the Holy Prophet (S) to derive to their fatwas and rulings on religious matters?

Bearing Allah as your witness, how many hadith or the traditions of the Holy Prophet (S) have you come across in the ”Sahihs” quoted by any of these personalities [who were actually the companions of the Holy Prophet (S)]? Kindly name them for us !

Yet we see the so-called companion of the Holy. Prophet like Abu Huraira who embraced Islam about three or four years before the Holy. Prophet of Islam parted this world, has his hadith out numbering the ahadith quoted by everybody put together!..


Who can tell you about a person more than one’s own immediate family?

Is such attitude towards the Ahlul-Bayt accidental or premeditated ?

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR ANCESTORS AND (APOSTLE) PAUL?

PAUL MANIPULATED THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AND THEY MANIPULATED THE TRUE MESSAGE OF ALLAH AND HIS MOST NOBLE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuhf).

IF YOUR ANCESTORS HAD THE AUDACITY TO INTERFERE IN THE DEEN OF ALLAH AND HIS APOSTLE, THEN WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE THEY DID OR HAVE DONE?.

It would mean making certain things "haram" which were originally "halal" and vice-versa....

OR Ordaining the holding of tarawih prayers in congregation...

OR three divorces pronounced at one session declared binding......OR Insertion of the formula "Prayer is better than sleep" in the call to the dawn prayer....

OR Formulation of the principle of qiyâs or judicial analogy......OR
Giving salaries to your Imams and mu’adhdhins.....

OR giving stipends for the poor among the Jews and the Christians....

OR Persuading scribes to collect the Mushuf and compile the Qur’an (rejecting what Ali had offered to the Umma on behalf of the Prophet) and executing the compilation work even after many scribes had already died in wars.....standardizing the text and ordering all other codices to be destroyed etc etc.....

Don't use your Muawiyan policy on us....in order to hide the truth, he initiated outright abuse and cursing of Imam Ali !

If your extremist Mullahs have given you a distorted and fabricated leads then don't forget that Allah has given you an Intellect to use rationally....also we are NOT in need of any certificate from SICK fanatics to certifty authenticity of OUR Islam !

Now go and ask your Mullahs which TWO wives of the Prophet were threatened by Allah in the Quran in Sura al Tahreem?

And if they are dishonest enough then we will be happy to tell you ! and in case you don't know then this Sura is the 66th Sura of the Quran ! and so if Allah chastised these TWO wives of the Prophet, how on earth can you guys convince anyone that they are included in Ayat ul Tat'heer ?

Now go and search your own books and you will find that it was Umar who claimed that during the times of the Prophet they used to recite "Ayat al Rajm" in which the divine command was to stone the adulterers but he said that this ayah has been "dropped" from the Quran....so then was he alleging that the present Quran is incomplete?

Go and search your books and you will find that the Second Caliph had left his copy of the Quran with his daughter who later claimed that she had left it under her bed and a Goat ate some parchments...

Then you go and search your books and check huh from your most authentic ahadith and you will find that Umar claimed that Sura al Azhab was double the size that it is now in the Quran...so what happened to the rest?

Go and search what Bibi Ayesha has said about the verse of the suckling of the child (which is NOT in the Quran).

So if you have been "programmed" by your Mullahs to accuse others for the baggage of your own guilt that you have been carrying for years now, then go and off load it elsewhere pal....it will not work with me !

Simply stated it would then mean that anyone who believes you guys, are drifting away from the original Islam as preached by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his immaculate progeny) in the light of the Holy Qur’an and as per commandment of Allah and this then is a logical conclusion.

"We have sent amongst you a Messenger from you (minkum) who RECITES to you OUR SIGNS and PURIFIES you and TEACHES you the BOOK (Al-Kitab) and the WISDOM (al-Hikmat) and TEACHES you that which you did not know.."(2:151) ....the key words here are "OUR SIGNS" (do you observe it is in plural and not singular?)...

Then SIGNS and the BOOK has been referred to separately and so there is a clear distinction made....

Plus and most importantly if the Prophet was already teaching from the Book (al-Kitab) and which he then passed on to his legitimate successor Hazrat Ali ibn Abi taleb, then what you have is NOT the Book of the Prophet (referred to herein) but (a like thereof)....created for you by your ancestors and so what basis do you have to even now argue with those who are in gradation and holding onto to BOTH the TWO weighty and precious things?

When you have neither except ofcourse Maherally's protestations!

If the Book was not readily available as claimed by your ancestors then why is Allah mentioning this in the Quran so clearly?

Why did the Prophet say to hold onto "his Book" ?

And frankly pal, are the scattered chapters in the hearts and minds of your scribes and ancestors who were fallible beings, the same as a readily compiled Book of Allah ?

[zznoor]

Dear Admin;

I am young person whose father is a lapsed Ismaili. After joining college I hang around with boys and girls of Muslim background. Some are secular and some are practicing but they all are normal college kids. We discuss Islam and its various sub divisions. I am trying to learn about Ismailism from this site. I am amazed by disrespect of Quran shown by this character Zanewala. As I understand Islam has only one codex of Quran. Nobody has seen any variant codex or this “Quran with my Mowla”.

By saying:

Quran e Paak ? are you in a state of delusion Virani ? you call your interpolations and variant man made concoctions quran e paak? How can any muslim follow such bidats and fabrications that you talk about?....so tell us which text do you call so felicitously the quran e paak? the one written and produced in Saudi Arabia? or India ? or Tehran? or Pakistan? I think the one approved by the Tora Bora cavemen will suit you better....they will pay you more to promote their Islam...

She spits out poison against a book considered holy by 1.5 billion Muslims. It appears that only Agakhani Khoja Muslims consider this book tainted and incomplete. (Farman of SMS).

Is it possible that this character Zanewala (with 100 posts so far in this forum) is an imposter from Islam haters? Or a ex Muslim with an ax to grind?

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

"..Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.} (An-Nisaa’ 3:3) .."

So then what you are saying is that the Prophet was allowed to go against the very quran he brought...is that what you are saying by trying to justify what the pastprophets may have done or not done - did the past prophets also bring the same quran? if not then stick to the argument and don't deviate...we are being specific here....if the Nabi brought a clear message that you cannot marry more than 4 wives conditionally, what the Nabi did, was not in conformity with the text itself you are waving....now logically he would never contradict the quran...so the safe assumption is that the words have been fixed....

Sometimes hypocrites like you don't even realize that they are hypocrites.

They are so convincing to other people that they even convince themselves they are believers, whereas their behavior shows quite the opposite.

They always find ways to justify their sinful actions and convince themselves that they are good believers.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) describes the attributes of a
hypocrite like you in faith in a very concise way.

The Prophet once said
that the signs of a hypocrite are three: Whenever he speaks, he
lies; whenever he promises, he breaks it; and if he is entrusted
with something, he betrays the trust (Al-Bukhari).

the problem with you sister is that you just read quran......JUST READ without understanding it.....@ above whatever you wrote shows how much knowledge you have regarding our rasool[saw], and iam happy that now my brothers and sisters are reading this post, ALHUMDULILLAH and seeing for themselves what is right and what is wrong...may allah[swt] have mercy upon all of us.

anyways back to the topic....you asked why was rasool[saw] allowed to marry more than 4 times......well sister the answer is very simple !

he did not do that for lust....and i have already gave you the explanation in detail in my previous post

33:28 (Picktall) O Prophet! Say unto thy wives: If ye desire the world's life and its adornment, come! I will content you and will release you with a fair release.

For this noble choice, they were afforded the generous title of mother of the believers, exemplars of Muslim womanhood.

and why he married more than 4 times sister then again i gave you the answer for this @ above post....he did that just to bridge the gap between two tribes/nations....."As was customary for Arab chiefs, many were political marriages to cement alliances. Others were marriages to the widows of his companions who had fallen in combat and were in need of protection."

Muhammad[saw] was far ahead of his time by marrying Bibi Khadija, a widow and an independent business owner 15 years older than he was, as his first wife. This monogamous relationship, which lasted nearly 25 years, until Khadija's death, was contrary to the then-Jewish, Christian and Arab traditions that allowed for unlimited wives.

Perhaps even more eye-opening was the fact that Muhammad took Sawda as his second wife when she was a 65-year-old widow. This marriage came as a great surprise to Muhammad's contemporaries, who usually took wives for their wealth or beauty, rarely out of compassion and affording security to women.

my rasool[saw] was not just an example for islamic ummah alone but was an example for the whole humanity....and here you are pointing fingers at my holy rasool[saw]....but yet you call yourself muslim sister, may allah[swt] guide you and forgive you for this.....

In fact, all but one of Muhammad[saw]'s wives were widows,and many of them were over the age of 40 when they married him.

Two of rasool[saw] marriages have come under particular attack from those who never lose an opportunity to promote Islamophobia, much like the idolaters of Muhammad's[saw] time. Even in their enmity, the Meccans of his[saw] time never accused him of moral ineptitude.

The current charge that Muhammad[saw] took his third wife, Aisha, when she was a minor is based on apocryphal traditions. The preponderance of evidence suggests that Aisha was between 16 and 19 years old when she married Muhammad[saw].

Another marriage that has raised current scrutiny is his seventh wife, Zaynab. This marriage, as with most of Muhammad's actions, was done to instruct the nascent Muslim community by setting personal examples. At issue was the relationship of an adopted child to his new parents.

Modern Westerners may disagree, but Islam's position is that adopted children are not equivalent in legal or biological status to children out of natural birth. To illustrate this, God commanded Muhammad[saw] to marry the wife of his adopted son following their divorce.

While Muhammad[saw] was Caesar and pope in one, he had none of their worldly possessions. In fact a mini-revolt erupted among Muhammad's wives not due to jealousy (as one might have expected) but complaints about their lack of worldly possessions.

33:28 (Picktall) O Prophet! Say unto thy wives: If ye desire the world's life and its adornment, come! I will content you and will release you with a fair release.

and thus @ above aayat was revealed !! simple !!!....Muhammad's [saw]daytime was spent fulfilling his prophetic mission of teaching. His nights were spent in long solitary prayers. This lifestyle was scarcely conducive to sexual perversion as suggested in many misinformed quarters.

Traditions tell us that Muhammad[saw] used to stand in prayer during much of each night. In the process, his feet would swell up. Aisha asked him about his extreme efforts to please God even though God had given him the good news of admittance into Paradise. Muhammad's answer was befitting a prophet: "Shouldn't I be a grateful servant?"

Slavery already existed long before Islam. It was a system whereby a human captured in wars or kidnapped could be sold as a “possession.” That term applied to both sexes, not to women only. In some cultures slaves were considered subhuman and treated brutally. In Europe, for example, Romans threw Christian slaves to the lions while the public cheered; female slaves were thought to have no souls and were tortured mercilessly; slaves lived in degrading conditions; both sexes were forced to offer sexual favors to their masters; and as “possessions” they had no choice, no will, and no rights.

Islam recognized the human rights of slaves and encouraged Muslims to set slaves free. Islam prohibited adultery and homosexuality, and prevented forcing female slaves into sexual acts against their will. Islam encouraged educating them, setting them free, then legally marrying them and giving them their moral and financial rights. The reward for this—as mentioned in Prophetic Hadith—is eternal residence in Paradise.

Maria (may Allah be pleased with her) was not a concubine; she was a slave owned by Egypt’s Christian governor, who offered her and her sister Serine—among other presents—as a “gift of good will” to the Prophet[saw] in reply to his envoys inviting him to Islam. On her way from Egypt to Madinah, she was curious to learn about “her new master” and listened to his Companions talk about him. As a result, she became Muslim before meeting Muhammad[saw]. Scholars’ opinions vary of her status afterwards; here is the opinion I support:

One of the prominent Al-Azhar scholars, Sheikh Abdul Majid Subh, states:
“Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), instead of taking concubines, entered into lawful marriages based on reason and wisdom. Maria the Copt was given to him as a present, but rather than taking her as a concubine, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married her, thus elevating her status by marriage.”

sister i can go on and on but for a woman like you who points finger or rasool[saw]....nobody except allah[swt] can help you

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

"We have sent amongst you a Messenger from you (minkum) who RECITES to you OUR SIGNS and PURIFIES you and TEACHES you the BOOK (Al-Kitab) and the WISDOM (al-Hikmat) and TEACHES you that which you did not know.."(2:151) ....the key words here are "OUR SIGNS" (do you observe it is in plural and not singular?)...

Then SIGNS and the BOOK has been referred to separately and so there is a clear distinction made....

omg !!!!
how does @ above even relate to what we are discussing ?

anywayz just because you have asked me @ above aayat lemme ask you this.....

WHAT ARE THE SIGNS OF ALLAH[SWT] OR SHOULD I SAY HIS SIGN ??

well lets hear it from imam e zaman himself !!!

“……The Quran tells us that signs of Allah’s Sovereignty are found in the contemplation of His Creation – in the heavens and the earth, the night and the day, the clouds and the seas, the winds and the waters….”
(Aga Khan IV, Kampala, Uganda, August 22 2007).



“The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but A PERPETUAL AND CONSTANT EVENT, and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine Will”

(Memoirs of Aga Khan III, 1954)


you have showed us how qualified you really are sister

thank you !!!

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

Viru says..."...with a meticulously preserved tradition in speech and actions in all minute details of his public and private life. Preserved in the sharp minds of his wives and his Companions, those narrations comprise the “daily life manual” for Muslims to follow until the end of time. The fact that Islam was spread on the shoulders of women and preserved in their hearts is a great honor to the females of this Ummah..."

Then you may have also read about the graphic physical details some of these "sharp" narrations have offered ? do you agree with them all? and ironically now you are somehow talking of "sharp" minds and meticulous preservation of a "daily life manual" etc etc and just a while ago you were whining that I was relying on ahadith and should not....double talk huh?

my dear sister, when did i said i believe in man made hadiths ??? The only purpose to show this was to tell you that even the holy quran was compiled by the great companions of rasool[saw]......this was just to show you that imam e zaman preaches from the very same quran !!!!

lemme repeat it once again

THE VERY SAME QURAN

hence if you still wanna abuse me, BE MY GUEST


do you see me copy/pasting any hadiths ?
do you see me supporting any hadiths ?

the best of all is quran [the best hadith]

[znanwalla]

"...my dear sister, when did i said i believe in man made hadiths ??? The only purpose to show this was to tell you that even the holy quran was compiled by the great companions of rasool[saw]......this was just to show you that imam e zaman preaches from the very same quran !!!! ..."

when you showed it to help further your cause, you showed belief in it....it is fair conclusion....as for HI preaching the "same Text" - I doubt ! HI preaches the Quran of Allah ! not the man made interpolations and fabrications if i may say so at the risk of repeating myself.

In his book Zahr al-ma'ani, Idris Imad ad-Din mentions many sayings attributed to 'Ali, as well as in all the other Imams. He says relating from Jabir ibn 'Abdallah al-Ansari:

"I was sitting once in the presence of the Commander of the Faithful 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, Peace be on him, when there entered Salman and Jundub (Abu Dharr al-Ghifari), may God be satisfied with them. They greeted and sat down.

Ali said, 'You are welcome, you, who both are faithful (wali) and sincere, and who promised their God to remain so. Verily this is necessary for every faithful (mu'min), for no one will accomplish his faith until he recognizes me really in my Luminous Substance. If he only knows me in this way, his heart will be tested by God as to the strength of his faith, and he will be content; thus he will become one knowing and seeing.

The one who fails is he who doubts and is obsessed by doubts'.

The passage goes on until Ali says:

"O Salman and Jundub, verily our dead never die, and those amongst us who are killed are not killed in reality.

"O, Salman and Jundub, the Rightful Imams from my progeny are acting in the same way, because all of us are one and the same imams manifested at all times... But with all this, we eat and drink, ... in the market place and do what we will, by the will of God, our Lord."

[znanwalla]

Viru,

"We have sent amongst you a Messenger from you (minkum) who RECITES to you OUR SIGNS and PURIFIES you and TEACHES you the BOOK (Al-Kitab) and the WISDOM (al-Hikmat) and TEACHES you that which you did not know.."(2:151)

SIGNS mentioned hereinabove is in PLURAL and does not only relate to what the Imam says about..." Allah’s Sovereignty"....Tawhid consists of many variables or degrees and "sovereignty" is specific to HIS attribute of Lordship over HIS created Order ( or attribute of activity)....the SIGNS in the ayat itself is an all encompassing generalization which embodies and encompasses HIS attributes of Divine Essence, including knowledge, power, Will, Life, speech, veracity, wisdom and informative attributes over and above HIS Lordship and Creative attributes.....and so try and understand what the Imam is saying ? it is okay if you think I am unqualified" for I am nothing in reality...all praise is only due to Allah !

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

for I am nothing in reality...all praise is only due to Allah !

for the first time in your life , you said something that makes sense and i congratulate you for that .....sister as i said earlier, you are free to post anything you want on this site without hurting anybodies sentiments....anger is your worst enemy sister, patience is your best friend, so far you chose anger to be your friend...its time to take patience as your CHADDI BUDDY [just kidding]

i hope and pray that you will not post anything against the holy quran and if you want to unleash that hidden dragon in you, then you are free to PM me

salam[peace]
yaa ali madad

[znanwalla]

"..you are free to post anything you want on this site without hurting anybodies sentiments...."

Thank you for being so generous ! I hope it is not a $60 fatwa which you have just issued...( just kidding)

Unfortunately truth is always bitter...what I have said is what the historians and muslim philologists also concur...one of the aims of the quran is to define the arguments of those who rejected the TRUTH and provide proofs against their arguments for rejecting the truth and so to this extent I am right in upholding this aim ...

The quran also exposes such inherent falsehoods and self deceit, hypocrisy and specious logic and another aim of the quran is to define what is required at each stage of the path to God including the manner of preparation for this journey and so this is where the SIGNS come into play and Allah invites us to reflect and ponder !

The aim of the Universal and Final Message is to entice us to seek knowledge of God, His Essence, Attributes and HIS works...to find the path of God and now to the crux of this issue....to be able to define and identify the people who have travelled on this path already and crossed SIRAT and to stay on SIRAT clinging onto the path of "those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours"....

Thus in stringing all these issues and verses together I have in reality only followed the aims of the quran and I mean the quran of Allah as revealed and as preserved by HIS Prophet and his immaculate progeny....there is no anger or acrimony....but truth must prevail because falsehoods do not stay for long....and I do not have any obligation as a muslim to follow conjectures or half truths....so I am frank - I am not a politician who says something else and means something else...

[shiraz.virani]

"..you are free to post anything you want on this site without hurting anybodies sentiments...."

Thank you for being so generous ! I hope it is not a $60 fatwa which you have just issued...( just kidding)

Unfortunately truth is always bitter...what I have said is what the historians and muslim philologists also concur...one of the aims of the quran is to define the arguments of those who rejected the TRUTH and provide proofs against their arguments for rejecting the truth and so to this extent I am right in upholding this aim ...

are historians your imam e zaman ? no!!
so follow what imam e zaman is following[quran] and not what historians tell you to !
the same historians called SHIA'S [infidels] and the same shia scholars called this so called scholar's with the same name....these so called scholars will not stand beside you on judgement day.

follow imam e zaman and quran , but if you dont wanna follow quran[uthmanic as you call] period , then atleast dont abuse it !

thats all !

The quran also exposes such inherent falsehoods and self deceit, hypocrisy and specious logic and another aim of the quran is to define what is required at each stage of the path to God including the manner of preparation for this journey and so this is where the SIGNS come into play and Allah invites us to reflect and ponder !

exactly but i would say his signs are not limited to exposing falsehood,hypocrisy etc etc only.....thats just our human brain !....where ever we see/turn there is a sign of allah[swt]...he is present yet unseen ! he is the best master , the perfect creator and just.

The aim of the Universal and Final Message is to entice us to seek knowledge of God, His Essence, Attributes and HIS works...to find the path of God and now to the crux of this issue....to be able to define and identify the people who have travelled on this path already and crossed SIRAT and to stay on SIRAT clinging onto the path of "those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours"....

whatever you have said @ above is mentioned in quran but yet you abuse it......why ?

Thus in stringing all these issues and verses together I have in reality only followed the aims of the quran and I mean the quran of Allah as revealed and as preserved by HIS Prophet and his immaculate progeny....there is no anger or acrimony....but truth must prevail because falsehoods do not stay for long....and I do not have any obligation as a muslim to follow conjectures or half truths....so I am frank - I am not a politician who says something else and means something else...

the answer for @ above would be the ummah sister....our ummah consists of over 1 billion muslim/muslimah....had this quran which you call uthmanic was corrupt the count would have been opposite

you're right

TRUTH ALWAYS PREVAILS and FALSHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

[znanwalla]

"...are historians your imam e zaman ? no!! so follow what imam e zaman..."

that is exactly what I am doing....HI says to go and seek knowledge even if it means going to china.....and to expose the truth which either has been inadvertently suppressed or on purpose....

"...the same historians called SHIA'S [infidels] and the same shia scholars called this so called scholar's with the same name....these so called scholars will not stand beside you on judgement day...."

And these Sh'ias call you and me and our Imam heretic....just a point !
Now Allah has given us an Intellect and Reasoning....we have to judge and be able to distinguish....that is our free will and given by Allah Himself.

"..follow imam e zaman and quran , but if you dont wanna follow quran[uthmanic as you call] period , then atleast dont abuse it !..."

All muslims must do the same...follow the TWO weighty and precious things....now they don't have to as there is no compulsion in religion and they are free to follow their own belief....but you just said yourself that they abuse us and call us Kufr etc etc....I am only showing historical facts - not abusing ....yet you feel so riled but when Sh'ias abuse us you do not seem to feel as bad...why?

".. but i would say his signs are not limited to exposing falsehood,hypocrisy etc etc ..."


I never said that HIS SIGNS are limited in any way...rather HE is beyond all attributes and that is why when anyone restricts HIM to any of HIS attributes and fails to nagate, he or she has committed Shirk...

"...whatever you have said @ above is mentioned in quran but yet you abuse it......why ..."

The texts and narrations have certain fundamental flaws....discussing them is a reasonable thing to do so that people know the truth and we all must know our history...how does that denegrate the quran of God? which is flawless and perfect? and why can't someone question the motives of those who created this texts to begin with when they should not have done so? what is unreasonable about searching for truth and the answers?

TRUTH ALWAYS PREVAILS and FALSHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

did the prophet not say that only a small jamat of mine will stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem? he did ! go and check - why did he not say that the majority will remain on sirat?...and so based on what my Prophet says....I would respectfully conclude that the majority on one side does not mean they are right...it may mean that all the "fools" are on one side...

[shiraz.virani]

"...are historians your imam e zaman ? no!! so follow what imam e zaman..."

that is exactly what I am doing....HI says to go and seek knowledge even if it means going to china.....and to expose the truth which either has been inadvertently suppressed or on purpose....

just a quick correction, it was rasool[saw] and not HI...apart from that you have shown nothing but some man made hadiths !

and thats what iam trying to tell you !

"...the same historians called SHIA'S [infidels] and the same shia scholars called this so called scholar's with the same name....these so called scholars will not stand beside you on judgement day...."

And these Sh'ias call you and me and our Imam heretic....just a point !
Now Allah has given us an Intellect and Reasoning....we have to judge and be able to distinguish....that is our free will and given by Allah Himself.

lemme highlight it for you sister , INTELLECT AND REASONING

"..follow imam e zaman and quran , but if you dont wanna follow quran[uthmanic as you call] period , then atleast dont abuse it !..."

All muslims must do the same...follow the TWO weighty and precious things....now they don't have to as there is no compulsion in religion and they are free to follow their own belief....but you just said yourself that they abuse us and call us Kufr etc etc....I am only showing historical facts - not abusing ....yet you feel so riled but when Sh'ias abuse us you do not seem to feel as bad...why?

well all muslims have one and the same quran that is found in our jamatkhana, yet they have different interpretation...which is a mercy as our imam e zaman mentioned soo many times ! ....its the same exact quran with same sura and aayat.

you said there is no compulsion, so you yourself ask a question and you yourself answer it ....well sister did you see me calling you KUFR[nouzbillah]

the debate was/is between you and me and not a shia ishna shari or sunni....it was between two ismailis.....look how many times you abused me and then recheck how many times did i cursed you out

you dont have to bring a 3rd person in this sister just to make your statement valid, i repeat again

FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

".. but i would say his signs are not limited to exposing falsehood,hypocrisy etc etc ..."

I never said that HIS SIGNS are limited in any way...rather HE is beyond all attributes and that is why when anyone restricts HIM to any of HIS attributes and fails to nagate, he or she has committed Shirk...

and i completely agree with you sister

"...whatever you have said @ above is mentioned in quran but yet you abuse it......why ..."

The texts and narrations have certain fundamental flaws....discussing them is a reasonable thing to do so that people know the truth and we all must know our history...how does that denegrate the quran of God? which is flawless and perfect? and why can't someone question the motives of those who created this texts to begin with when they should not have done so? what is unreasonable about searching for truth and the answers?

discussing and abusing are two different things sister...just like discussing something with you and abusing you are two completely different act and that is what iam trying to tell you.

dont forget patience = chaddi buddy

TRUTH ALWAYS PREVAILS and FALSHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

did the prophet not say that only a small jamat of mine will stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem? he did ! go and check - why did he not say that the majority will remain on sirat?...and so based on what my Prophet says....I would respectfully conclude that the majority on one side does not mean they are right...it may mean that all the "fools" are on one side...

whats the total population on this planet earth sister ????
once you find the answer, please lemme know

thank you and dont forget patience = chaddi buddy

[znanwalla]

"...just a quick correction, it was rasool[saw] and not HI...apart from that you have shown nothing but some man made hadiths !...."

Thank you ! so you do follow hadith - that is a good sign...now check the Imam's recent speeches and you will find that Imam has repeated this ahadith also....and so I wasn't wrong as such.

So how does one decide which ahadith is false and which is true? or do you simply pick and choose what suits your agenda ? what is the criteria one may follow or which the Mutjahids follow in order to ascertain authenticity?

Let me show you another ahadith of our beloved Nabi SAW...it is a Mutawatir ahadith related by companions, their followers and countless narrators down the ages, evidence thereof can be found in both Sunni and Sh'ia Books as over 100 companions have transmitted this...

HADITH AMAN UL UMMA:

The Prophet made it known that he saw his Ahl al Bayt as a source of UNITY and a means of distancing his Umma from divisiveness, saying.." just as the stars are a means of securing (aman) the people of the earth from drowning, my Ahl al Bayt is a means of securing (aman) for my Umma from division......if a Tribe among the people opposes them, they fall into dispute and become part of Satan's Minnions..."

So now does this explain why we are so divided within the Umma?

Do you Sir accept this ahadith? and assuming I do use my Intellect and reasoning as you have highlighted it so kindly, then what rational conclusion can I or should I, draw from this ahadith?

Now let us look at another MUTAWATIR ahadith which has been narrated by about 110 companions from which 89 were from succeeding generations , including their followers and I can quote as many Sunni references as one may want....

HADITH AL-THAQALYN:

In this hadith the Nabi SAW is preaching to the Umma..."VERILY I am leaving with you TWO precious things, the Book of God and MY Progeny, my Ahl al Bayt....for as long as you cling to these two, you will NEVER go astray....and TRULY they will NOT be parted from each other until they join me at the "Hawd" of paradise (al Kawthar)..."

So do you accept this ahadith? does the Prophet mention the Book? Yes! what does this say to any honest and rational maind? the Book always existed otherwise the Prophet would have not said so....additionally what is he saying? to hold fast onto his family....did everyone do this? No ! what does the quran say? " disobedience to the prophet is disobedience to Allah"...

Okay , now lets look at HADITH AL SAFINA:

The Prophet in this ahadith has likened his Ahl al Bayt to Noah's Ark saying:..." is not the likeness of my ahl al bayt among you like the ark of Noah among his folks? whoever takes refuge therein is SAVED and whoever opposes it is DROWNED.....we know that Noah's Ark was the sole place of refuge for people seeking to save themselves from the deluge.....and so according to what the beloved Nabi said..." the Ahl al Bayt of the Prophet i.e. his pure progeny is the SOLE REFUGE for those SEEKING protection against the TENEBROUS phenomena i.e. sources of delusion and confusion that confronts humanity..."


And what does Allah say..."Verily WE have shown him the way whether he be grateful or disbelieving..."

Do you also reject this above hadith?

Additionally HADITH AL MANZILA spells out what the 'spiritual rank" was given to the Imam

And then if you read HADITH YAWM AL DAR....the message Allah had given to the Nabi to deliver to the people.."what has been revealed to you from your Lord"....the Prophet had delivered privately to his own family and tribe during this "Feast of the family"...at Khum e Ghadir he was told to deliver it to the people now...that is why there was no message attached with the relevant ayah ( today this ayah is found in Sura 5 but it was one of the final ayats and so should have been in the final Suras) as the prophet had already received the message earlier on..." And warn thy tribe of near kindred..." (Sura al Sh'uara).....and he had done so and his tribe EXCEPT Ali (who was only about 10 years old then), had mocked the Nabi when he gave them the message...

So do you also reject these authentic ahadith? I hope not ..if you do brother, I have nothing more to say to you....

[shiraz.virani]

"...just a quick correction, it was rasool[saw] and not HI...apart from that you have shown nothing but some man made hadiths !...."

Thank you ! so you do follow hadith - that is a good sign...now check the Imam's recent speeches and you will find that Imam has repeated this ahadith also....and so I wasn't wrong as such.

our imam e zaman gave us an example of rasool[saw]'s saying and hence he said, seek knowledge even if you have to travel to china

So how does one decide which ahadith is false and which is true? or do you simply pick and choose what suits your agenda ? what is the criteria one may follow or which the Mutjahids follow in order to ascertain authenticity?

well sister since you said it already that it was told by our imam e zaman, hence its clear that i dont follow any man made hadiths but rather what my present and LIVING imam is saying .

Let me show you another ahadith of our beloved Nabi SAW...it is a Mutawatir ahadith related by companions, their followers and countless narrators down the ages, evidence thereof can be found in both Sunni and Sh'ia Books as over 100 companions have transmitted this...

now our rasool[saw] became beloved for you ??? After asking some absurd questions regarding his 12 marriages now hez[saw] beloved for you ???

HADITH AMAN UL UMMA:

The Prophet made it known that he saw his Ahl al Bayt as a source of UNITY and a means of distancing his Umma from divisiveness, saying.." just as the stars are a means of securing (aman) the people of the earth from drowning, my Ahl al Bayt is a means of securing (aman) for my Umma from division......if a Tribe among the people opposes them, they fall into dispute and become part of Satan's Minnions..."

So now does this explain why we are so divided within the Umma?

i dont think so !!!
you said only a small fraction of people will go to jannah and look @ above what you copy/pasted....it is no way related to the debate sister.....khair lets just continue

Do you Sir accept this ahadith? and assuming I do use my Intellect and reasoning as you have highlighted it so kindly, then what rational conclusion can I or should I, draw from this ahadith?

can you please give me the authenticity of the above hadith ? i just wanna know who heard from who and who was with rasool[saw] when he said that

Now let us look at another MUTAWATIR ahadith which has been narrated by about 110 companions from which 89 were from succeeding generations , including their followers and I can quote as many Sunni references as one may want....

HADITH AL-THAQALYN:

In this hadith the Nabi SAW is preaching to the Umma..."VERILY I am leaving with you TWO precious things, the Book of God and MY Progeny, my Ahl al Bayt....for as long as you cling to these two, you will NEVER go astray....and TRULY they will NOT be parted from each other until they join me at the "Hawd" of paradise (al Kawthar)..."

lol , ok so the progeny is imam e zaman[as] agreed !!!
what about the book of god ?
you said the book of god is with imam e zaman[as] and i said that the only quran that the whole islamic ummah has is one quran[uthmanic as per you]

the debate is not on AHLE BAIT sister.....the debate is on the quran which is with imam e zaman[as per you].....and thats the reason why i asked you that if imam e zaman has a different holy quran[as per you] then how come we ismailis have uthmanic quran[as per you] in our jamatkhana !!!

again @ above hadith is in no way related to the debate !

So do you accept this ahadith? does the Prophet mention the Book? Yes! what does this say to any honest and rational maind? the Book always existed otherwise the Prophet would have not said so....additionally what is he saying? to hold fast onto his family....did everyone do this? No ! what does the quran say? " disobedience to the prophet is disobedience to Allah"...

i accept only that is mentioned in quran....there is a seperate surah called "KAUTHAR"....and it talks about ABUNDANCE given to rasool[saw], be it wisdom or wives ....ofcourse the book already existed for the simple fact that he was given the book quran, or in other words the book was nazil in his heart, but was revised to him in stages

thats was my HONEST AND RATIONAL mind says sister

Okay , now lets look at HADITH AL SAFINA:

The Prophet in this ahadith has likened his Ahl al Bayt to Noah's Ark saying:..." is not the likeness of my ahl al bayt among you like the ark of Noah among his folks? whoever takes refuge therein is SAVED and whoever opposes it is DROWNED.....we know that Noah's Ark was the sole place of refuge for people seeking to save themselves from the deluge.....and so according to what the beloved Nabi said..." the Ahl al Bayt of the Prophet i.e. his pure progeny is the SOLE REFUGE for those SEEKING protection against the TENEBROUS phenomena i.e. sources of delusion and confusion that confronts humanity..."

ofcourse ahle bait is like NOAH'S[as] ark....but what you're forgetting is even H.NUH[as] was believer of god and NOT GOD HIMSELF , he believed in revelation and conveyed what allah[swt] wanted him to....samething was repeated @ above and if rasool[saw] said that in truth then who am i to reject it ??

but.......but.......if imam e zaman is teaching anything against quran then we'll be the first person to drown sister .....but so far, right from imam ali [as] till the present imam[as] i dont see any variation or disrespect for the present quran

HONEST AND RATIONAL MIND SISTER !!!

And what does Allah say..."Verily WE have shown him the way whether he be grateful or disbelieving..."

Do you also reject this above hadith?

is that a hadith ???

Additionally HADITH AL MANZILA spells out what the 'spiritual rank" was given to the Imam

And then if you read HADITH YAWM AL DAR....the message Allah had given to the Nabi to deliver to the people.."what has been revealed to you from your Lord"....the Prophet had delivered privately to his own family and tribe during this "Feast of the family"...at Khum e Ghadir he was told to deliver it to the people now...that is why there was no message attached with the relevant ayah ( today this ayah is found in Sura 5 but it was one of the final ayats and so should have been in the final Suras) as the prophet had already received the message earlier on..." And warn thy tribe of near kindred..." (Sura al Sh'uara).....and he had done so and his tribe EXCEPT Ali (who was only about 10 years old then), had mocked the Nabi when he gave them the message...

oh you mean last supper ??
even christians have the same mythology ....khair lets move on !
my dearest sister what did rasool[saw] delivered on his last sermon ??? was it just itrat or quran as well

quran is with ali[as] and ali[as] is with quran...for the simple fact that whatever ali[as] does is from the holy quran

simple !!!

again the hadith @ above is out of context !

So do you also reject these authentic ahadith? I hope not ..if you do brother, I have nothing more to say to you....

you sure do sister !!
so far you never told me why we have the same uthmanic quran is our jamatkhana plus much more

the day you give me an answer , that day ill have nothing more to say


salam[peace]
yaa ali madad

[znanwalla]

"..our imam e zaman gave us an example of rasool[saw]'s saying and hence he said, seek knowledge even if you have to travel to china..."

So what else has the Imam said to you and which you follow diligently ?

On what basis can you reject all ahadith and especially those ones which the Umma have generally accepted? did the Imam ask you to do so? if yes please say so...if not then how did you decide not to accept them?...I have offered elaborate arguments why I am unable to equate the variant texts with the Quran of Allah as revealed....so you now show your basis.

Conversely you are willing to equate "man made" texts and call it the quran of God - so then that is double talk and hyppocrisy and Allah has devoted an entire Sura for such folks...

Even if anyone changes one simple word, it changes the context - if
the context of the quran is destroyed then what else is left ?...

When we study the TEXTS or NARRATIONS we find that the conjecture of the events behind individual verses of the Qur’an (Shaan-e-Nuzool) is an exercise in futility.

Instead of explaining, it distorts the meaning and binds the timeless verses to some particular supposed incidents.

Likewise, trying to establish whether a certain Surah was revealed in Makkah or Madinah is practically irrelevant to the Glorious Message.

The so-called ‘Ulama’ and exponents wasted centuries in this fruitless endeavor and their blind followers keep doing the same.

They have fierce disagreement on this non-issue to this day.....against all historical facts and evidence of the flaws which I have shown, you are willing to yet accept the interpolated and variant narrations and texts but want to outright reject all ahadith which means you are also rejecting the SUNNAH of the Prophet blindly and haphazardly...Anyone who rejects the Sunnah of the Prophet by default does not then belong to the Ummat of Muhammad and anyone who does not belong to his Ummat also strays away from his own family i.e. the Imam of the time as he is from the Prophet's family.

Now I can see some of you blowing your bugle and boasting - you haven't won the argument as yet.......

So let me ask you some basic questions on the quran and lets see if you can answer?....but as you are "Ismailis" and good nes too,let me first ask you some questions directly relevant to our Tariqa and practice before I move onto the quran...

a) Muslims have 5 pillars of faith...how many pillars do ismailis have?

b) do you fast? do you go for Hajj? do you do wudzoo? and is any of these also pillars of your faith or not? if not why not? if yes state which ones?

c) You recite Du'a...so tell me which Sura did Allah SWT ordain the muslims to recite as a Du'a then? do ismailis recite it? and if so when and how?

d) Which are the two critical Suras embodied in your Du'a? how many times do you submit to Allah? how many times do the muslims submit to Allah in a day?

e) what does your Du'a comprise of? and what does it categorically acknowledge?

f) if muslims pray 5 times, do you do the same? if not why not? and if you do how? tie this up for me...

g) you said that the majority of the muslims read the quran texts you are are waving at me.....then why are you not also following the salat practice of this said majority? or do you pick and choose based on your sectarian agenda?

Has the Imam asked you to learn and understand the Du'a? Yes! and so if you have been listening to him then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot answer these simple questions....additionally in recent times has the Imam said that you should learn about our history? Yes !...we will get into history at a later stage...my sister Zina is coming soon to help you out...

In our Du'a do we mention the names of the Panjtan Paak? and if so at which point?

What is the fundamental difference between our Shahada and that of the Sunni Muslims and then between ours and that of the Asnasheris?

You claim you are an Ismaili....so please answer these before I go onto the next ones over the quran itself....

You are asking me..."now our rasool[saw] became beloved for you ??? After asking some absurd questions regarding his 12 marriages now hez[saw] beloved for you ??? ..."

Ofcourse he Muhamad SAW is the beloved and the Mercy to all believers... where does it say in your fabricated texts that anyone who marries more than one wife is not a beloved?

All I asked you was why your texts contradicted my beloved who would never go against the very quran he brought?

You haven't been able to answer....just the fact that my beloved married some 12 wives proves that your text is flawed ....are you also suggesting that your Mullahs and Sheikhs who have a harem are not anyone's beloved?

Who has excelled in MUTA and URFI farce ? muslims keep concubines and mistresses....did my beloved keep them? muslims go to brothels and drink alchohol and they cheat and lie on their wives and generally...did my beloved do all this? No ! so what the Prophet made haram you have made halal and then you are blowing your bugle at me....shows your brains are dysfunctional due to your own bigotry and ignorance....

[znanwalla]

You are saying now that the quran is with Ali and Ali is with the quran...so then you are agreeing with me and what I have been saying all along?...the Imam says to follow the "Quran" - I am saying follow the Quran of Allah as revealed ! You are saying no lets follow what man have created for us all...that is the point of our disagreement...


Ali vs. truth (right path):
===========================
The (Prophet) (PBUH&HF) said:

Wa dara al-haqq maahu haithu dar, literally: And the truth (the
right path) turns with him (i.e. Ali) wherever way he turns.

I did say to you that any text or narration in Imam's hand is the quran ! he is the master ! the inheritor ! and text without him is incomplete and you have been arguing with me relentlessly.

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the
commentary of al-Bismilah

Similarly in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, it is narrated that:

The Messenger of God said: O God, have Thy Mercy on Ali. O God,
make the right and the truth with Ali in all situations.

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297


In Arabic, linguistically, the wording (balagha) could play tricks on the
listener. Logically, truth is absolute and not variable.

A person, relative to the truth, could be variable in action.

In this case, the person (i.e. Imam Ali) is placed as the absolute fixed
axes around which the event is taking place; such that, if anything changes in the persons decision, the event is the thing that will change its track truth in this case!!!

Since, such change is not logically reasonable
due to the absolute nature of truth, then one can conclude that the two are
married and are inseparable. (and this is what I have been saying to you all along)...No Imam ! No Quran !

Hence, Ali (AS) stands for truth at all times.

Thus the saying of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is a metaphoric way to stress
Alis importance and attachment to the truth (right path) such that
Ali (AS) and the right path are indistinguishable.(yet you have tried to create distinctions based on your own sectarian agenda)

Whereas, if we put in the reverse order (i.e. Ali turns with truth) it
would leave room, theoretically, for Ali to make other possible turns, by
virtue of Ali being the moving object. This would sound weaker, and would
imply the nature of a non-infallible person....but the Imams are infallible
===============================================
The chains (asnad) of narrations of Ghadir Khum
===============================================
The importance of the tradition of Ghadir Khum in history is reflected in
its widespread documentation and mentioned by the multitude of
personalities over the centuries.

Although, some trivialized, only listed
the occurrence among the historical events without giving it a thought, or
discussed the matter in a mixture of emotional judgments, none could deny the authenticity of these narrations. The essence of what the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) delivered on the day of Ghadir was not disputed among any, even if they disagreed on its interpretation, for reasons obvious to the alert.

Let us look at the lists of some of the Sunni traditions, commentators, and
historians who have documented the tradition of Ghadir Khum in
chronological order:
==============================================================
Sunni Traditionists who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
==============================================================
1. Mohammed Ibn Idris al-Shafii (Imam al-Shafii, d. 204) per
al-Nihayah by Ibn al-Athir
2. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Imam al-Hanbali, d. 241), in Masnad and al-Manaqib
3. Ibn Majah (d. 273), in Sunan Ibn Majah
4. al-Tirmidhi (d. 279), in Sahih al-Tirmidhi
5. al-Nisai (d. 303), in al-Khasais
6. Abu-Yala al-Mousilli (d. 307), in al-Masnad
7. al-Baghawi (d. 317), in al-Sunan
8. al-Doolabi (d. 320), in al-Kuna wal Asmaa
9. al-Tahawi (d. 321), in Mushkil al-Athar
10. al-Hakim (d. 405), in al-Mustadrak
11. Ibn al-Maghazili al-Shafii (d. 483), in al-Manaqib
12. Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 505), in Sirrul `Alamayn
13. Ibn Mindah al-Asbahani (d. 512), in his book
14. al-Khatib al-Khawarizmi (d. 568), in al-Manaqib and Maqtal al-Imam
al-Sibt
15. Abul Faraj Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597), in Manaqib
16. al-Ganji al-Shafii (d. 658), in Kifayat al-Talib
17. Muhib al-Din al-Tabari (d. 694), in al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah and
Dhakhair al-Aqabi
18. al-Hamawainy (d. 722), in Faraid al-Samdtin
19. al-Dhahabi (d. 748), in al-Talkhis
20. al-Khatib al-Tabrizi (d. 8th century), in Mishkat al-Masabih
21. al-Haythami (d. 807), in Majma al-Zawaid
22. al-Jazri (d. 830), in Asna al-Matalib
23. Abul Abbas al-Qastalani (d. 923), in al-Mawahib al-Ladaniya
24. al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975), in Kanz al-Ummal
25. Abdul Haqq al-Dihlawi, in Sharh al-Mishkat
26. al-Hurawi al-Qari (d. 1014), in al-Muraqat fi Sharh al-Mishkat
27. Taj al-Din al-Manawi (d. 1031), in Kunooz al-Haqaiq fi Hadith
Khair al-Khalaiq and Faidh al-Qadir
28. al-Shaikhani al-Qadiri, in al-Siratul Sawi fi Manaqib Aal al-Nabi
29. Ba Kathir al-Makki (d. 1047), in Wasilatul Amal fi Manaqib al-Aal
30. Abu-Abdullah al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122), in Sharh al-Mawahib
31. Ibn Hamzah al-Dimashqi al-Hanafi, in al-Bayan wal Taarif
and many others.
=====================================================
Sunni Commentators of Quran who mentioned Ghadir Khum
=====================================================
The following Sunni commentators mentioned that one or some or all of
the mentioned verses of Quran (such as [5:67] which was about the Allahs
order to Prophet for announcement of appointment of Ali, [5:3] which was
about completeness of religion, and [70:1] which was about the curse of
a person who became angry at the Prophet for this announcement) were
reported to have been revealed in the event of Ghadir Khum:
1. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in Tafsir al-Bayan
2. al-Jassas (d. 370), in Ahkam al-Quran
3. al-Hafiz Abu Nuaym (d. 430), in Asbab al-Nuzool
4. al-Thalabi (d. 427 or 437), in Tafsir al-Thalabi
5. al-Wahidi (d. 468), in Asbab al-Nuzool
6. al-Qurtubi (d. 568), in Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran
7. al-Fakhr al-Razi (d. 606), in al-Tafsir al-Kabir
8. al-Khazin Baghdadi (d. 741), in Tafsir al-Khazin
9. al-Nisaboori (8th century), in Tafsir al-Nisaboori
10. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in his Tafsir (complete version) under the verse
5:3 (It is ommitted in coincise version!) narrated from Ibn Mardawayh.
11. al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti (d. 910), in his Tafsir
12. al-Khatib al-Sharbini, in his Tafsir
13. Abu al-Saud al-Hanafi (d. 972), in his Tafsir
14. al-Aloosi al-Baghdadi (d. 1270), in his Tafsir
and many others.
===========================================================
Sunni Historians who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
===========================================================
1. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276), in Maarif and Imamah wal Siyasah
2. al-Baladhuri (d. 279), in Ansab al-ashraf
3. Ibn Zawlaq al-Laithi al-Misri (d. 287), in his book
4. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in an exclussive book Kitabul Wilayah
5. al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463), in Tarikh Baghdad
6. Ibn Abd al-Bar (d. 463), in al-Istiab
7. al-Shahristani (d. 548), in al-Milal wal Nihal
8. Ibn Asakir (d. 571), in Tarikh Ibn Asakir and Yaqoot al-Hamawi
9. Ibn al-Athir (d. 630), in Usd al-Ghabah
10. Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 654), in Tadhkirat Khawas al-Ummah
11. Ibn Abi al-Hadid (d. 656), in Sharh Nahjul Balagha
12. Ibn Khalkan (d. 681), in Tarikh Ibn Khalkan
13. Abul Fida (d. 732), in his Tarikh
14. al-Dhahabi (d. 748) , in Tadhkirat al-Huffadh
15. al-Yafii (d. 768), in Miraat al-Jinan
16. Ibn al-Shaikh al-Balawi, in Alef Baa
17. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in al-Bidayah wal Nihayah
18. Ibn Khaldoon (d. 808), in al-Muqaddimah
19. al-Nuwairi (d. ~833), in Nihayat al-Irab fi Finoon al-Adab
20. al-Maqrizi (d.









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[shiraz.virani]

"..our imam e zaman gave us an example of rasool[saw]'s saying and hence he said, seek knowledge even if you have to travel to china..."

So what else has the Imam said to you and which you follow diligently ?

we have a seperate section dedicated to MHI's speeches, read it by yourself and see what imam has said .

On what basis can you reject all ahadith and especially those ones which the Umma have generally accepted? did the Imam ask you to do so? if yes please say so...if not then how did you decide not to accept them?...I have offered elaborate arguments why I am unable to equate the variant texts with the Quran of Allah as revealed....so you now show your basis.

when did i said i reject/accept hadiths ???? again the blame game ?

kahir, lets continue..lol ....well, my imam e zaman has told me to follow quran e sharif and imamat, and insha allah ill do so.

infact even our constitution says that the job of imam e zaman is to interpret quran [ constitution is made my imam e zaman himself ! ], did he said he has seperate quran ? NO !

then how come you dance on the same tune again and again ???

Conversely you are willing to equate "man made" texts and call it the quran of God - so then that is double talk and hyppocrisy and Allah has devoted an entire Sura for such folks...

even our dua is man made, do you call it hypocrites dua ? NO !!!
And again you're saying an entire verse talks about hypocrite in the holy quran....well sister wake up !!! we're having a debate because you think quran is incomplete !!!
why give us references from the same quran ???

who is two faced now ???

Even if anyone changes one simple word, it changes the context - if the context of the quran is destroyed then what else is left ?...

which surah you talking about , namely ?

When we study the TEXTS or NARRATIONS we find that the conjecture of the events behind individual verses of the Qur’an (Shaan-e-Nuzool) is an exercise in futility.

and thats what you think !

Instead of explaining, it distorts the meaning and binds the timeless verses to some particular supposed incidents.

and those incidents did happened in the past !!

Likewise, trying to establish whether a certain Surah was revealed in Makkah or Madinah is practically irrelevant to the Glorious Message.

and what does makkah and madinah have to do with quran ? is there a chapter on makkah and madinah in holy quran ???

The so-called ‘Ulama’ and exponents wasted centuries in this fruitless endeavor and their blind followers keep doing the same.

we have used ages to find allah[swt], and yet nobody can define allah[swt]

They have fierce disagreement on this non-issue to this day.....against all historical facts and evidence of the flaws which I have shown, you are willing to yet accept the interpolated and variant narrations and texts but want to outright reject all ahadith which means you are also rejecting the SUNNAH of the Prophet blindly and haphazardly...Anyone who rejects the Sunnah of the Prophet by default does not then belong to the Ummat of Muhammad and anyone who does not belong to his Ummat also strays away from his own family i.e. the Imam of the time as he is from the Prophet's family.

i accept quran to be word of allah[swt] and shah karim al hussaini as my present and living imam [ who can interpret quran, yes the same uthmanic quran present in our jk ]

Now I can see some of you blowing your bugle and boasting - you haven't won the argument as yet.......

as i said last time, iam not here to win, iam here to learn for winning is for those who are desperate , khair... iam here to learn , if you want me to declare you the winner ill be more than happy to do so !

So let me ask you some basic questions on the quran and lets see if you can answer?....but as you are "Ismailis" and good nes too,let me first ask you some questions directly relevant to our Tariqa and practice before I move onto the quran...

ok lets start....

a) Muslims have 5 pillars of faith...how many pillars do ismailis have?

7 pillars sister , WALAYAH being the 1st and which also means love and devotion

b) do you fast? do you go for Hajj? do you do wudzoo? and is any of these also pillars of your faith or not? if not why not? if yes state which ones?

fasting is prescribed to each and every muslim, be it ismaili,sunni etc etc....matter of fact even our present imam e zaman fast s during ramadan. In ismailism we have physical and spiritual ...most of my brothers think spiritual fast is enough...but i dont think so.....for eg : while reciting dua you do physical movement such as raising hands, sajda etc etc...we dont just sit like a saadhu baba ryte ?? similarly we have to fast physically to purify our body and spiritually to purify our soul and heart.

we have wudzoo khana in our jamatkhana, dunno about others ! apart from providing provision such as taking a loo etc....there are taps on the floor and basin at the top for those who wanna wash their legs/hands/face etc etc

hajj as per ismailism means deedar of mawlana hazar imam, but if somebody wants to go to kaaba sharif, he can !....even mata salamat went to kaaba sharif ....during our 48th imams time, theres a video of her kissing a black stone and throwing stones...i have posted it earlier on this site

c) You recite Du'a...so tell me which Sura did Allah SWT ordain the muslims to recite as a Du'a then? do ismailis recite it? and if so when and how?

lol, you remind me the song from movie love aaj kal......TWIST ,TIWST..lol...lemme rephrase it for you

DO ISMAILIS RECITE THIER HOLY DUA FROM THE SAME QURAN[uthmanic as per you] ????

my answer: YES !!!

d) Which are the two critical Suras embodied in your Du'a? how many times do you submit to Allah? how many times do the muslims submit to Allah in a day?

you can submit to allah[swt] as many times as you want ,but 3 times with their names is mentioned in quran namely

al-fajr
al-wutsa
al-esha [please correct me if iam wrong]

and so ismailis perform 3 times dua....again lemme rephrase this question for you

FROM WHICH QURAN DO ISMAILIS PERFORM THEIR DUA ??

e) what does your Du'a comprise of? and what does it categorically acknowledge?

allah[swt], rasool[saw] and imamat[ulil amr] all mentioned in holy quran

f) if muslims pray 5 times, do you do the same? if not why not? and if you do how? tie this up for me...

quran say 3 times salat and not 5 and so our imam e zaman follows what is in quran and not some man made hadiths.

plus before arabic dua we had hindu mythology dua...how many times did we used to recite it ??????????

g) you said that the majority of the muslims read the quran texts you are are waving at me.....then why are you not also following the salat practice of this said majority? or do you pick and choose based on your sectarian agenda?

i follow what is their in quran sister and not some man made hadiths

Has the Imam asked you to learn and understand the Du'a? Yes! and so if you have been listening to him then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot answer these simple questions....additionally in recent times has the Imam said that you should learn about our history? Yes !...we will get into history at a later stage...my sister Zina is coming soon to help you out...

well i answered all the questions sister.....its time for you to answer mine !!!

In our Du'a do we mention the names of the Panjtan Paak? and if so at which point?

the whole panjtan pak is repeated in our 6th part followed by the line of imamat....is this even a question to ask???

What is the fundamental difference between our Shahada and that of the Sunni Muslims and then between ours and that of the Asnasheris?

aliullah = ali is from allah
but our constitution says a different story

You claim you are an Ismaili....so please answer these before I go onto the next ones over the quran itself....

uh uhhh.....sister i answered your question, its time to answer mine !!!

You are asking me..."now our rasool[saw] became beloved for you ??? After asking some absurd questions regarding his 12 marriages now hez[saw] beloved for you ??? ..."

Ofcourse he Muhamad SAW is the beloved and the Mercy to all believers... where does it say in your fabricated texts that anyone who marries more than one wife is not a beloved?

psst psst.....you the one who asked why he married 12 times....he's your beloved ryte ??? then dont you know why and in what circumstances he married " mother of believers " ?

All I asked you was why your texts contradicted my beloved who would never go against the very quran he brought?

my texts ?? oh you mean holy quran ?? kindly use your research skills and see when did the aayat about 4 marriages was naazil on him

before his marriage or after.....and kindly see why my rasool[saw] panicked and it was allah[swt] who comforted him by sending another aayat which is posted in my earlier posts.

You haven't been able to answer....just the fact that my beloved married some 12 wives proves that your text is flawed ....are you also suggesting that your Mullahs and Sheikhs who have a harem are not anyone's beloved?

ha ha ha ha.....its like saying just because aly khan married a britisher, shah karim al hussaini is not a muslim ....sister i dint just gave you an answer for what you asked regarding marriage, infact that was a tight slap on you face !!

Who has excelled in MUTA and URFI farce ? muslims keep concubines and mistresses....did my beloved keep them? muslims go to brothels and drink alchohol and they cheat and lie on their wives and generally...did my beloved do all this? No ! so what the Prophet made haram you have made halal and then you are blowing your bugle at me....shows your brains are dysfunctional due to your own bigotry and ignorance....

and why he dint sister ?? why he married them ?for what reason sister ?? to set an example for the whole ummah

good lord you dint said shah karim al hussaini hazar imam came from muta too....just like meherally does all the time !

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

Ali vs. truth (right path):
===========================
The (Prophet) (PBUH&HF) said:

Wa dara al-haqq maahu haithu dar, literally: And the truth (the
right path) turns with him (i.e. Ali) wherever way he turns.

I did say to you that any text or narration in Imam's hand is the quran ! he is the master ! the inheritor ! and text without him is incomplete and you have been arguing with me relentlessly.

the inheritor ? you're right ,he's the inheritor of holy quran from rasool[saw].....quran is always complete , infact :

OUR DUA IS INCOMPLETE WITHOUT HOLY QURAN


do you know ? our imam e zaman was given quran e paak during his golden jubilee...when all our bigshots went to see him at his holy mansion .....do you think that quran was different than the one which we have in our jamakhana ??

food for thought !!!

dont forget FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

[znanwalla]

"...we have a seperate section dedicated to MHI's speeches, read it by yourself and see what imam has said ..."


Gee thanks for reminding me....but atleast tell me if you only follow his "broader firmans" or do you follow anything else beyond just the broader versions which are primarily meant for the public...what is the difference between "Irshad" and "Farameen" ? and so judging by what you just said you are not following the "command" which is obligatory for all ismailis to follow....

Infact even our constitution says that the job of imam e zaman is to interpret quran [ constitution is made my imam e zaman himself ! ], did he said he has seperate quran ? NO !

So you are agreeing with what I am saying....I never said he was separate...I never made any distinctions nor did I attribute any falsehoods.

Ta'wil of word 'Ma'a'l-Qur'ân' (With the Qur'ân):

"Externally Ali (Imam of the time) is a pure personality and internally a light. Externally, the Qur'ân is a glorious heavenly Book and internally (in the Prophet and the Imam) it is light. This shows that externally Ali and Qur'ân are separate from each other, but internally they are not only together, they are one light." [Source: Tawil 820: A Thousand Wisdoms] ...and this is what you have been rejecting all along.

Ta'wil of word 'Ma'a'l-Qur'ân' (With the Qur'ân):

"It is said in Hadith: "Ali is with the Qur'ân and the Qur'ân is with Ali, they will never separate from each other until they come to me at the pond (of Kawthar)." (Yanâbi, p. 103).

(You have given a wrong interpretation of Kawthar....the Quran talks about "abundance of posterity" - not wives if you will ! )


The wisdom of this is that Ali (i.e., every true Imam) in his spirituality and luminosity is with the Qur'ân and the Qur'ân in its spirituality and luminosity is with Ali.

Thus, the Qur'ân and Ali are one light in spirituality and this oneness will continue until the resurrection takes place and they come to the pond of Kawthar." [Source: Tawil 819: A Thousand Wisdoms

Ta'wil of word 'Asmâ' (The luminous personality of the Imam in which all signs are encompassed):

"It is mentioned in a Hadith: "Indeed, Allah has ninety-nine names. He who memorises their number (and recites them), enters paradise." (Sarâ'ir, p. 69).

It is not possible to understand the meaning of this Hadith without ta'wil, and the ta'wil is that all other names of God are encompassed in His supreme Name and that supreme Name is the Imam of the time.

A mu'min who knows this enters paradise, because this knowledge is tanatamount to enumerating His ninety-nine names." [Source: Tawil 65: A Thousand Wisdoms]

"...even our dua is man made, do you call it hypocrites dua ? NO !!!..."

The only difference is that our Du'a is approved by an infallible guide ! one who is considered a "perfect being" - one who has "Isma" and the drafts were done by solid Syrian scholars who then presented it to the infallible guide....the texts you refer to were done by fallible scribes, half of them had died already in wars.

Ta'wil of word 'Kullu shay'in' (Everything, all things):

The magnificent and unique principle of the quran which is the treasure cannot be praised by us human beings and that universal principle full of quintessence (i.e., the pure, highly concentrated essence) of wisdom is:

"And We have encompassed everything in a manifest Imam." (36:12).

That is, all spiritual and intellectual subtle things of the kingdom of God can be found gathered and enfolded in the manifest Imam, provided someone recognizes himself or herself." [Source: Tawil 732: A Thousand Wisdoms]

"The following hadith is about the virtues of the Qur'an:

"Indeed, everything has a heart and the heart of the Qur'an is Yâ-Sin (Surah 36)" (Trimidhi, V, 162).

One main reason for this title of Yâ-Sin is that the Treasure of the treasures of God is mentioned in it, which is:

"And We have encompassed everything in the manifest Imam." (36:12).

That is, God enfolds the universe in the living and present Imam and also unfolds it from him." [Source: Tawil 106: A Thousand Wisdoms]

No Imam ! No Quran !

[shiraz.virani]

psst psst.....lemme rephrase it again for you

NO QURAN, NO IMAM.....for imamat can only be proved through quran e paak [the most authentic hadith on this planet]

you're right , imams[as] are masoom...but they uphold quran in whatever they do

the latest movie called "agakhan and ismailis" when asked ,HI says : whatever he does from A-Z....is in accordance with holy quran[/b


then you said you never told me about different quran...again you're running back and forth sister...

you told us that quran is with imam e zaman....and when i asked you if quran that imam e zaman has is different from the present quran...you started copy/pasting hadiths....

i just asked you one simple question and instead of giving me an answer you're twisting it ...as always !!!!

you used the same strategy which you tried to use against brother haroon but there is only one problem, you dont go with the flow

khair my questions are still unanswered sister

i asked you :

1] if imam e zaman has a different quran then why do we ismailis have the same uthmanic quran[as per you] in our jamat khana?

2] why was silent quran[uthmanic] given to speaking quran ?

3] why do we recite our holy dua from the very same quran, infact even the surah and aayat number matches to that of uthmanic quran

4] why do we recite eid namaz and ziyarat from the same quran[uthmanic]

if you can give me the answer i would be thankful to you

salam
yaa ali madad

[znanwalla]

you're right , imams[as] are masoom...but they uphold quran in whatever they do ...the latest movie called "agakhan and ismailis" when asked ,HI says : whatever he does from A-Z....is in accordance with holy quran[/b

Absolutely correct ! everything that the ismailis do is from the quran ! no doubt about it ! but he means the QURAN of Allah as revealed and his mandate is to interpret this Quran and so logically he does not refer to any "like thereof".....but I am glad that you at least concede on a general basis that whatever Ismailis do is actually from the quran and so this means ismailis are amongst those few who follow and upohold THE QURAN of Allah as revealed to the heart of HIS beloved Prophet SAW and as preserved now by his immaculate family...so simple !

Yes! the Quran of God is the most authentic "guide" - but you are asking people to follow conjectures and half truths - we have no such obligation, moral or religious to do so...lets first examine your contention where you refer to the Furqan and the Criteria as just a "hadith" ?

There can be there no further "revealed" laws now....so taking into account the import of the relevant quranic verse it becomes clearer that with the passing away of the Prophet the scroll has received the terminal seal and so the Book of revelation is brought to an end....

033.062
YUSUFALI: (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

You are offering a twisted version and then rejecting all ahadith of our Prophet SAW ...so let us examine what is actually the "Sunnat Allah" or the practice approved by Allah and does this really mean that all other ahadith is to be ignored as claimed by you.

One needs to then read Sura al Fatir - verse 42-43 and Allah clarifies for us what the practice has been and which you reject...

" When a WARNER came unto them, it aroused in them naught save REPUGNANCE (shown in their behaving arrogantly in the land and plotting evil and the evil plot encloseth but the men who make it...."

So what is Allah referring to here? HE is saying that whenever HE sent a Warner mankind acted with repugnance and plotted evil against HIS envoys of TRUTH and this is what you are doing and have done consistently...now let us see the remaining ayah...

"Then can they expect aught save the treatment of the folk of old? THOU WILL NOT FIND FOR GOD'S WAY (SUNNAT ALLAH)(of dealing with people) any SUBSTITUTE NOR wilt thou find for God's Way (of dealing with the people) aught of power of change..." Wow !

Allah is actually saying so clearly what is HIS Sunnat Allah ? and it is not at all to imply or mean that people should either treat the Quran as the Sunnah by way of a "substitute" and reject all ahadith or genuine sayings of the WARNER which Allah says HE has been sending to mankind overtime " as a practice" (Sunnat Allah)....and thus it is abundantly clear that you are labouring under a mis apprehension and grossly committing Ghulaw or Bida by introducing a new dimension that does not exist in theory and so by default you are acting in contradiction of the noble quran....so where is the basis for you to argue with me over this issue?

PICKTHAL: Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), ...He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. ....so Yes! the quran of God as revealed and as preserved by the prophet and his immaculate progeny is the guide...now this is the ayah you are relying on to say that "quran is the best hadith"...so show me where it mentions the word "hadith"? if you have any other ayah please be my guest and bring it out where it categorically uses the word "hadith"?

What comes up consistently is the word "Guide" which re inforces my argument about the WARNER who was also the Guide....the Quran is the Hakam ! the Recital ! The Reading ! The Final Message (means no other Messenger is there after Muhamad SAW) ! the Furqan but Virani calls it a "hadith" to mean Tradition or a Book of dogmas of a cult ...when infact the Quran of God, is the Sacred Book and a Universal Message for all mankind....

Now look at Sura al Hamd where Allah says that remember ME so that I can guide you to the path of Sirat (Right Path)....and Allah commands mankind to pray "Guide us to the Right Path....the path of those upon whom THOU has bestowed favours.....so again Allah is talking about some men of knowledge....obviously it ties up with WARNER or GUIDE ! so then what is the "practice of Allah" ? or the SUNNAT ALLAH ? - the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed favours ! who are they ? the Nabiyyin ; the Sadiqqin; the Shuhada and the Salihin....( there is no mention of the Book here and so even the question of "Sunnah" or "Hadith" is a secondary issue for now....and then what does Allah say?..."NOT of those cursed ones...nor of those who have gone astray.."...so what is the SUNNAT ALLAH ? and who are the cursed ones?...figure this out yourselves.

"...Messengers bearing good news and Warning in order that mankind might have no argument against GOD after the Messengers...God is ever Mighty, Wise..." Sura al Nisa verse 165..."

Sura al Baqara verse 213 ..Sura al An'am verse 87 ; Sura al Zumar - verse 37 also re inforces my argument.

The verse (36:12) reveals that God has encompassed everything – intellectual, spiritual and physical – in the light of the most noble Imam.

(so now where is the quran encompassed and preserved?)

Therefore, according to the principles of Qur'anic wisdom, it is clear that all subjects are contained in the subject of Imâmat and all words in the word Imâm. [Source: Recognition of Imam (Imâm – Shinâsi) Part I & II]


Ta'wil of word 'Itâ'ah' (Obedience to God, the Prophet and the Imam):

"The holy Prophet said to Hazrat Ali: "He who obeys me, indeed obeys Allah and he who disobeys me, indeed disobeys Allah and he who obeys you, indeed obeys me and he who disobeys you, indeed disobeys me." (al-Mustradrak, III, 121).

This Hadith is an exegesis of verse (4:59) about obedience." [Source: Tawil 76: A Thousand Wisdoms]


Ta'wil of word 'Uli'l-amr' (The custodians of the Divine commands, the true Imams):

"Verse (4:59) says: "O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and the ulu'l-amr from amongst you."

That is, in addition to Allah and the Prophet, obedience to the Imam from the progeny of the Prophet, whose Imamat is established from the Qur'an and Hadith, is obligatory.

Contrary to this, world kings and rulers cannot be the ulu'l-amr, nor is any example of them found in the age of Prophethood, the ideal age of Islam.

In the same surah in verse (4:54) there is mention of giving of the Book, the wisdom and a great kingdom to the Progeny of Ibrahim and here, according to the context of the subject, by progeny of Ibrahim are meant to be Muhammad (s.a.s.) and his progeny." [Source: Tawil 133: A Thousand Wisdoms]


So now which quran is the Imam referring to? and which one you are talking about?

[shiraz.virani]

sister znanwalla said :

So now which quran is the Imam referring to? and which one you are talking about?

whoelse can we ask but imam e zaman himself !!

"Quran Symposium:....a reflection of how Islam's revelation, with its challenge to man's innate gift of quest and reason, became a powerful impetus for a new flowering of human civilisation.This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur'an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. In this context, would it not also be relevant to consider how, above all, it has been the Qur'anic notion of the universe as an expression of Allah's will and creation that has inspired, in diverse Muslim communities, generations of artists, scientists and philosophers? Scientific pursuits, philosophic inquiry and artistic endeavour are all seen as the response of the faithful to the recurring call of the Qur'an to ponder the creation as a way to understand Allah's benevolent majesty. As Sura al-Baqara proclaims: 'Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah'.The famous verse of 'light' in the Qur'an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy"

(Aga Khan IV, Speech, Institute of Ismaili Studies, October 2003, London, U.K.)


"Above all, following the guidance of the Holy Quran, there was freedom of enquiry and research. The result was a magnificent flowering of artistic and intellectual activity throughout the ummah"

(Aga Khan IV, Aga Khan University, 16 March 1983, Karachi, Pakistan)


SHIA IMAMI ISMAILI CONSTITUTION :

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahada 'La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulu-llah', the Tawhid theirin and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu 'alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Qur'an, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

to cut this short , ill give you another reference from the holy quran :

Holy Qur'an (057.028): O ye that believe! Fear God, and believe in His Apostle, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy: He will provide for you a Light by which ye shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past): for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


we are fortunate that we have 2 portions namely imam and quran e paak....but unfortunately just because of people like you ismailism has to suffer.

your ego stops you from accepting quran for the fear that omg! if i do accept quran then how will i be able to prove imamat or foundation of my faith...where as everything is mentioned in holy quran

tariqah might change but not the essence....anyways do what you feel is correct !![/b]

[znanwalla]

"...You recite Du'a...so tell me which Sura did Allah SWT ordain the muslims to recite as a Du'a then? do ismailis recite it? and if so when and how? ...."

You never answered this question...you merely circumvented it....if you do not know then say so...

"..your ego stops you from accepting quran for the fear that omg..."

my prudence stops me from accepting interpolations that you are trying to impose on me....I cannot refuse to accept the quran of God as revealed...I have said repeatedly that the Book in the hands of the Imam becomes complete....otherwise it is not complete but again nothing stops me from referring to them or reading them....and so if I read the texts in circulation, I know it is only complete when I also listen to the "commands" - hidayats - ginans - qasidas and the Irshad Mubarak....and so when the leadership offered the Book to the Imam he held it in his hands (that is the hand of yadulahhi) and he kissed it....that is then the quran....so you are missing the point ...or atleast trying to miss the point .

"If a man treats the Imam's orders as already contained in the plain commandments of the Shari'at, ascertains from ordinary theologians ('ulmama-y-i zahir) the indications (ma'ni) of the Quran and the various hadiths concerning the institution of Imamat, and if he acts according to the theologian's opinion, all his pious acts will be fruitless and his troubles useless,–he will finally go to Hell.

This is because the correct meaning of the Quran and hadiths is only with the Imam.

The Prophet,–peace be upon him,–himself said that whoever accepted his progeny ('itrat) and the Book of God as his guidance would never be lost.

The expression "my progeny" refers to the Imam, according to the words of the Quran (III, 30): "....and Allah says that HE has confined EVERYTHING in the MANIFEST IMAM ! and so the quran is encompassed in the heart and the being of the Imam...that is the quran one should try and follow additionally, if you will and then yes reading the texts is justified as all acts and deeds are done in cohesion and correctly....

Ta'wil of word 'Muslimah' (The community of the pure Imams):


"A true Muslim is the one who submits himself to God. In this sense, Hazrat Ibrâhîm and Hazrat Ismâil prayed:

"Our Lord! Make us submitters to You and of our progeny a submitting community (ummatan muslimah) to You (by true obedience)." (2:128).

This shows that ummatan muslimah is the community of the pure Imâms who are the progeny of Hazrat Ibrâhîm and Hazrat Ismâil (See Daâ'im, I, 33). " [Source: Tawil 812: A Thousand Wisdoms]


....and when i asked you if quran that imam e zaman has is different from the present quran

I have answered this many times over...but you do not seem to get the point...Allah's Book is Perspicous ! Allah's quran is Complete and flawless ! Allah's quran is perfect in all respect ! and is encompassed in the manifest Imam ! I have shown several flaws in your texts and narrations and yet you are asking me irrelevant questions....you haven't explained :

a) why the chronological order is incorrect?

(b) why the longer suras are in front and the shorter ones at the end?

(c) if Allah had perfected Islam as early as the 5th Sura what was then the need for HIm to send 109 additional suras? - Allah says in the Quran " WE have sent you a (new) Light and a PERSPICOUS BOOK !...the texts you are talking about was compiled by the scribes, half of them dead ....the texts have gone numerous revisions, the final being some centuries after the death of the Prophet SAW - so you now tell me when does a "revelation cease to be a revelation" ? what is the difference between "hearsay conveyance" and "revelation"....can any fallible scribes truly revise and re revise the Book of Allah which we hold so sacred? No ! under whose authority was this done? and so many many years after the Prophet's death if A tells B that the Prophet had said this or that, then is that a revelation?

Ta'wil of word 'Yastanbitûna' (They deduce, discover, they do istinbâat):

"Istinbâat primarily means "to dig a well and bring out water for the first time".

Secondarily it is used in the sense of thinking, reflection, to penetrate deeply (Qâmûs, p. 77).

For instance, istanbata'sh-shay' means to reveal a thing from its hidden state.

Verse (4:83), in which it is used, clearly means that after the holy Prophet, it is the ulu'l-amr, the Imams from the progeny of the holy Prophet, who bring out the inner meaning of the Qur'ânic verses, because it is they who know the ta'wil (inner meaning) of the Qur'ân." [Source: Tawil 980: A Thousand Wisdoms]...not because they read the texts but because the quran in its complete form is encompassed in them.....and so you are trying to muddy the waters and mix your "apples and oranges" and then blowing bugle like Bush who said "mission accomplished' when nothing was accomplished unfortunately....

[shiraz.virani]

"...You recite Du'a...so tell me which Sura did Allah SWT ordain the muslims to recite as a Du'a then? do ismailis recite it? and if so when and how? ...."

You never answered this question...you merely circumvented it....if you do not know then say so...

[35:29-30] "Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the Contact Prayers and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is Forgiving, Appreciative."

[29:45] "You shall recite what is revealed to you of the Scripture, and observe the Salat (Contact Prayers), for the Salat prohibits evil and vice. But the remembrance of God is the most important objective. God is aware of all that you do."

[5:6] "O you who believe, when you observe the Salat (Contact Prayers) you shall wash your faces, wash your arms to the elbows, wipe your heads and wash your feet to the ankles."

i think this should answer your question !

[29:45] "You shall recite what is revealed to you of the Scripture (the Quran), and observe the Salat (Contact Prayers)."

allah[swt] has made it crystal @ above what to recite and what shouldnt

"..your ego stops you from accepting quran for the fear that omg..."

I cannot refuse to accept the quran of God as revealed...I have said repeatedly that the Book in the hands of the Imam becomes complete.

but even the imam uses the same quran [uthmanic as per you]...so when he himself uses the same quran then who are you to say it has flaws etc etc ?

did you heard my 49th imam saying quran is incomplete ??? if yes , then kindly show me that firman or speech please

"If a man treats the Imam's orders as already contained in the plain commandments of the Shari'at, ascertains from ordinary theologians ('ulmama-y-i zahir) the indications (ma'ni) of the Quran and the various hadiths concerning the institution of Imamat, and if he acts according to the theologian's opinion, all his pious acts will be fruitless and his troubles useless,–he will finally go to Hell.

says who ????

This is because the correct meaning of the Quran and hadiths is only with the Imam.

agreed !!! but the debate is on quran and not imam e zaman being SUPER HERO or anything of that sort

The Prophet,–peace be upon him,–himself said that whoever accepted his progeny ('itrat) and the Book of God as his guidance would never be lost.

i accepted both the book[present] and imam[present] , but you seem to follow imamat minus quran ....you're getting twisted in your own statements !!

The expression "my progeny" refers to the Imam, according to the words of the Quran (III, 30): "....and Allah says that HE has confined EVERYTHING in the MANIFEST IMAM ! and so the quran is encompassed in the heart and the being of the Imam...that is the quran one should try and follow additionally, if you will and then yes reading the texts is justified as all acts and deeds are done in cohesion and correctly....

ok so if quran is encompassed in quran [as per you] then how come he gives us the quranic references that matches the uthmanic[as per you] quran ????

see how you are running sister !.....i just asked you to prove me why the dua we recite consists of the same aayats tht matches the uthmanic book[as per you]

and look @ junk which you have copy/pasted saying everything is manifested in imam......you're sooo dumb to even stop and think that if everything is manifested in holy imam then WHAT WAS THE NEED FOR ALLAH[SWT] TO SEND THE BOOK[QURAN]

instead of that he would have simply declared IMAM ALI[AS] as imam !!! why sending book ??? Everything happens for a reason....the book is taught by the teacher and hence the teacher in present era is imam e zaman....the job of the teacher is to teach and thats what our imam e zaman is doing !!

i still uphold my views that the job of the imam e zaman is to interpret quran....thats it !!!!!!!!

Ta'wil of word 'Muslimah' (The community of the pure Imams):
"A true Muslim is the one who submits himself to God. In this sense, Hazrat Ibrâhîm and Hazrat Ismâil prayed:

"Our Lord! Make us submitters to You and of our progeny a submitting community (ummatan muslimah) to You (by true obedience)." (2:128).

This shows that ummatan muslimah is the community of the pure Imâms who are the progeny of Hazrat Ibrâhîm and Hazrat Ismâil (See Daâ'im, I, 33). " [Source: Tawil 812: A Thousand Wisdoms]

when did i said they are not ??? How is @ above even related to our debate ??

the question which i asked is why we have the same quran in our jamatkhana....YET YOU SIMPLY IGNORED IT !

....and when i asked you if quran that imam e zaman has is different from the present quran

I have answered this many times over...but you do not seem to get the point...Allah's Book is Perspicous ! Allah's quran is Complete and flawless ! Allah's quran is perfect in all respect ! and is encompassed in the manifest Imam !

the book[quran] which allah[swt] sent on rasool[saw] is the same quran we have in our jamatkhana !!!
if the answer is NO , then please kindly show me this so called IMAM E ZAMAN's quran

our dua is from the uthmanic quran
our ziyarat is from the uthmanic quran
our eid namaz is from the same uthmanic quran
our jamatkhana has gujarati translation of the very same quran
our nikah is again from the same uthmanic quran

why ???
is everything is in manifest imam then why read the same uthmanic quran ?

bottom line ! how hard you try to twist the fact, it remains the same....we ismailis have imam and the very same quran that the rest of our ummah has !

a) why the chronological order is incorrect?

chalo, for the sake of debate even if i accept that its in chronological order, what difference does that make ????

does that change the meaning ?????

(b) why the longer suras are in front and the shorter ones at the end?

then how come sura FATEHAH is in front ????

chalo , again if i do accept that...what difference does that make ???
did allah said read only long suras ???


(c) if Allah had perfected Islam as early as the 5th Sura what was then the need for HIm to send 109 additional suras? - Allah says in the Quran " WE have sent you a (new) Light and a PERSPICOUS BOOK !...the texts you are talking about was compiled by the scribes, half of them dead ....the texts have gone numerous revisions, the final being some centuries after the death of the Prophet SAW - so you now tell me when does a "revelation cease to be a revelation" ? what is the difference between "hearsay conveyance" and "revelation"....can any fallible scribes truly revise and re revise the Book of Allah which we hold so sacred? No ! under whose authority was this done? and so many many years after the Prophet's death if A tells B that the Prophet had said this or that, then is that a revelation?

again you just read quran for the sake of reading it.....allah[swt] has challenged mankind to even produce one aayat like that of those mentioned in quran ,

Noble Verse 2:23 "And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true."

Noble Verse 17:88 "Say: 'If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.'"

"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!" (The Noble Quran, 6:93)"


surah 5:67 , you can refer it if you want...our rasool rec'd 5:67 before 5:3 .....so do you think allah[swt] made a mistake when he sent 5:67 first and 5:3 after the sermon ??

did allah[swt] said : MY BAD ? no!!!

the quran is compiled as it should be and if you dont accept it then its like saying you're not accepting the last sermon of rasool[saw]

i told you last time....even brother pardesi said that the arrangement of quran might be chronological but the essence doesnt change !!!!

and so you are trying to muddy the waters and mix your "apples and oranges" and then blowing bugle like Bush who said "mission accomplished' when nothing was accomplished unfortunately....

2:9 (Y. Ali) Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

[pardesi]

.......
surah 5:67 , you can refer it if you want...our rasool rec'd 5:67 before 5:3 .....so do you think allah[swt] made a mistake when he sent 5:67 first and 5:3 after the sermon ??

did allah[swt] said : MY BAD ? no!!!

the quran is compiled as it should be and if you dont accept it then its like saying you're not accepting the last sermon of rasool[saw]

i told you last time....even brother pardesi said that the arrangement of quran might be chronological but the essence doesnt change !!!!

shiraz.virani,

I think you have totally misunderstood and seriously misquoted my argument about Quran not being in a correct chronological order. You keep repeating "Quran is chronological". The verses are not in the order they were revealed!!! I don't think you understand what is a chronological order. I have never said that incorrect chronological order does not change the essence of the message. On the contrary I have always argued that since Quranic verses are not in the order they were received and that the ayahs are misplaced all over the Book it has changed its true context and hence allowed for alternative interpretations which may not necessarily be correct and therefore have cause confusion and incorrect understanding.

How is it that 5:3 (perfection of deen-e-Islam) arrives before 5:67? How is that right. If anything 5:3 should be one of the last ayahs of a chapter (surah) if not "the" last ayat of Quran. And how do you know for sure that 5:3 was revealed before 5:67? Are you going blindly by the order of the current Quran? Is that a good enough reason?

Allah is beyond mistakes. Humans are mistake prone. That is why I always said that there is no argument about what is in the book. It is how it is put together (the chronological order of the verses) that has created problems. In 5:3 Allah says He has completed His religion and then realizes (5:67) oh wait a minute Mohammad you forgot to deliver an important message and that if you (Mohammad) dont do that then your whole prophethood is null and void so even though I have perfected the religion still go ahead and deliver that which you haven't and I will call it mission accomplished!!!!

Your argument that 5:3 was revealed before 5:67 does not hold water. We all know that 5:3 was revealed after the the event of Ghadir-e-Khum and that 5:67 was revealed to the Prophet during his return journey somewhere between Mecca and the stop at Ghadir-e-Khum.

[pardesi]

shiraz.virani,

After reading your last post one more time, even if you do agree that 5:67 was revealed before 5:3 then you do agree that the Quran is not in a correct chronological order. This is just one example. Would you also agree that the same mistake has been repeated by the writers throughout Quran? You have claimed that the writers were honest and had the Quran memorized then how is it that they messed up on the correct order of revelation of verses?

[pardesi]

[Yusufali 5:3] Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

If you look at the translation above by Abdullah Yusufali you will see that the particular part of verse 5:3 that we are arguing about probably does not belong here but inserted here nevertheless to hide its significance - may be. Why else would the perfection of religion verse be hidden here in this way? A mischievous act I suspect. Even if you look at 5:1 and 5:2 of this surah Allah is speaking of sacrificial animals and the method of slaughtering and what is halal and what is haram. Why would the Prophet ask the scribes to insert the verse of perfection here in this way? The Prophet used to go over Quran with Jibreel on a yearly basis and twice in the year before he passed away. I doubt very much it was Prophets instructions to place this particular verse here.

What do you think?

[znanwalla]

STARTLING CONFESSIONS

Let us examine the personal confessions of some of the most ancient and foremost “Imams” (’Canonical’ authorities) who narrated History, Hadith (Prophetic sayings and traditions), laid down Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) and did Tafseer (explanation) of the Quran.

IMAM RAZI’S HORRIBLE CONFESSION:

Most Muslims have heard of one of the most ancient and famous Tafseer-e-Kabeer (The Great Exposition of the Quran) by Imam Fakhruddin Razi.

This Tafseer is one of the tops being followed by our Mullahs till this day.

After writing his 300 volumes, ‘the great and authoritative’ Imam confesses:

“All my intellectual and supposedly logical statements in the explanation of the Quran turned out to be lame.

All the explanations of the Quran done by the so-called Imams (Tabari, Zamakhshari, Ibne Kathir, Bukhari, Muslim etc) are misguided and misleading.

All of us were the tools of Satan.

Our souls were polluted by our physical desires. All our endeavors and works of this world promise to bring upon us nothing but eternal humiliation, torture and doom.”

Hadith-Ul-Quran by Allama Inayatullah Khan Al-Mashriqi, 1954 edition, Pg 190.

IMAM TABARI’S STRANGE CONFESSION:

“I am writing this book as I hear from the narrators. If anything sounds absurd, I should not be blamed or held accountable.

The responsibility of all blunders rests squarely on the shoulders of those who have narrated these stories to me.”

So, Tabari wrote nothing but hearsay. Mazhabi Dastanain Aur Un Ki Haqeeqat by Allama Habib-ur-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalwi, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi


Tareekhil Umam Wal Mulook (The History of Nations and Kings) popularly called “The Mother of All Histories” is the first ever “History of Islam” written by ‘Imam’ Tabari (839-923 CE) at the junction of the third and fourth century AH. He died in 310 AH, three centuries after the exalted Prophet. What were his sources? Not a scrap of paper! “He told me this who heard it from him who heard it from her and she heard it from so and so,” and so on.

By compiling his 13 Volume History and his 30 Volume Exposition of the Quran under royal patronage, Tabari became the Super Imam.

The later historians until this day have persisted in following the trails of the Super Imam. Imam Zahri Wa Imam Tabari, Tasweer Ka Doosra Rukh by Muhaddith-ul-‘Asr Jaame’-ul-‘Uloom Hazrat Allama Tamanna Imadi Phulwari, Ar-Rahman Publishing Trust, Karachi

IMAM IBN KATHIR’S CONFESSION: “Had Ibn Jareer Tabari not recorded the strange reports, I would never have done so.” Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Khilaafat-e-Mu’awiya-o-Yazeed, Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi

IMAM AHMAD BIN HANBAL’S CHASTISEMENT:

The sincere Islamic scholar of the 20th century, Allama Shibli Na’mani, on page 27 Vol 1 of his Seeratun Nabi has given a startling quote of the ancient Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), “Three kinds of books are absolutely unfounded, Maghazi, Malahem and Tafseer.” (The Prophet’s Battles, Dreams & Prophecies and Expositions of the Quran.)


HISTORIAN IBN KHALDOON’S THRASHING: “The Muslim historians have made a mockery of history by filling it with fabrications and senseless lies.”


Muqaddama Tareekh Ibn Khaldoon. [Ibn Khaldoon then himself makes a mockery of history. Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal points out that there is nothing worth reading in his book but the preface, Muqaddama. Dr. Shabbir respectfully agrees.]

SHAH ABDUL AZIZ’S CRITIQUE:

“Several pages of Ibn Khaldoon’s History have been deliberately removed since the earliest times.

These pages had questioned the most critical juncture of Islamic history, that is, the Emirate of Yazeed . Even the modern editions admit in the side-notes and foot-notes that those pages have been mysteriously missing from the ancient original book.” Khilaafat-e-Mu’awiya-o-Yazeed, by Mahmood Ahmed Abbasi

SHAH WALIULLAH’S CHASTISEMENT:

“Imam Jalaluddin Sayyuti’s Tarikh-ul-Khulafa is the prime example of how our Historians, Muhaddithin and Mufassirin, each have played like Haatib-il-Lail (The man who collects firewood at night not knowing which piece is good and which one is bad).” Hujjatullah-il-Baalighah

IMAM RAGHIB’S PROTEST:

Tabari, Waqidi, Mas’oodi, Sayyuti wrote any reports they heard from anyone. Moreover, figures such as Abu Mukhnif, Lut bin Yahya and Muhammad bin Saaeb Kalbi never existed