There is nothing wrong in disagreements...
"- I have to disagree with you here. The Sifati aspect (Allah with Attributes) is NOT subject to change. The Divine Attributes are eternal as is the First Intellect. Even with different frames of reference, the Allah of
the Zahiri frame of reference and the Allah of the batini frame of reference is the same thing. The Sifati is only different from the Zati in terms of manifestation, not of Essence.
- In my thoughts, the Godhead/Essence possesses what can be called instrinsic attributes such as "Not, not merciful", "Not, not transcendant", or "Not, not powerful". The First Intellect/Allah has extrinsic attributes
such as Most Merciful, Transcendant or Most Powerful. The Quran outlines and mentions these important attributes."
The entire creation is the manifestation of Allah and creation is continuous. The experience of creation is our perception of it. It is the light of the Pir which enables us to percieve the world. In my opinion the mechanics of that perception which include the natural laws would be the sifat. In that sense sifat continually changes and is personal. An elevated soul will have a different perception than an ordinary human being. For example, Hafiz alludes in one of his poetry that he could see the future. In this respect his frame of reference has changed and the sifat as it relates to him has changed accordingly. All the attributes of Allah that you alluded to are a facet of this perception. That is my personal view.
"I must disagree here on your interpration of the Farman. MHI clearly says the Light of ALI and the Light of IMAMATE. When talking about Light, he is NOT alluding to the Piratan, or else he would have said, "Light of
Muhammad and Light of Piratan". Also, in the BUK role, it is the Imam who makes farmans because his primary function is the Esoteric dimension of the faith while the Pir looks after the exoteric dimension.
I admit that from a Zhati point of view only, Imam is the essence/Godhead. But we must keep in mind that the Essence and the Light/First Intellect are not in a hierarchy but in different Realms or Words. The World of Essence is called the Hahut and the World of Divinity is called the Lahut. Imam is present in both planes, as Essence in the Hahut and as the First Intellect in the Lahut. He is also present in the Jabarut (Lordship), Malakut (Imaginal), and the Nasut (Sensible). Each of us also is present in each of these Realms, though we may not be aware of it."
MHI has never mentioned that he is the Pir. I think the reason is that he is trying to bring Jamats of different historical backgrounds into a united practice. In one of the Firmans, he states that the context of Nasir Khusraw is important. That context has no knowledge of Piratan or indeed the Nur-e-Nabuwwa. That would create confusion.
But according to the Ginanic tradition it is quite clear that the peer guides you to the Imam. In the Ginan "Abdu Man Jite" Pir Hassan Kabeerdeen says:
abdhu gur vachane ghatt shodhan kareeje, to gurnar darshan paayaa;
O slave! conduct the search within (esoteric sense) through the command of the Guide (Pir), then you will have the Vision of the Imaam and the Peer.
In the Ginan "Allah ek Kassam" he says:
ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
Recognise the Prophet , then you will attain the Imaam.
In the same Ginan he refers to Imam as Allah.
ejee aal alee islaamshaah raajaa, allaah ehee imaam
Mawlana Islamshaah who is the progeny of Aly is the King. Allah is indeed the Imaam.
Quran , Adam A.s and Pir's Revolution and Das Avvatar
nice discussion
Ya Aly Madad,
Thought I should share my thoughts
The BUK farman about the 3 nur's
The higher Nur (above all else)=Haq Nur
Nur of H. Aly=Sat Nur
Brahma kahe so Nur=Farman of Imam=Nur-e-Imammat
Imam says that when man thinks its thought and when God thinks it is creation.
Imam is the one in whose thought all of existence is encompassed.
Try to understand the magnitude of what this means. You cant because his magnitude is above our imagination or Human intellect.
Can you dream or think without yourself in it.
That is why Imam has to be present in creation at all times.
Just as without you your dream or thought disappears similiarly without Imam everything ends.
To be in the thought of Allah and the zaat of Allah is two completely different things but in essence not different. I think its in the zaat of Allah that shifat can exist.
All the shifati names are applicable to the living Imam of the time. The one who is above all else is also above and beyond all shifats, language , communication.
Talking about frames of reference what is constant between all the different frames of reference.
That in which they all exist.
Like a friend of mine named Nizar says "Observe the observer" (an exercise that will help understand what I am trying to say here)
Shams
Thought I should share my thoughts
The BUK farman about the 3 nur's
The higher Nur (above all else)=Haq Nur
Nur of H. Aly=Sat Nur
Brahma kahe so Nur=Farman of Imam=Nur-e-Imammat
Imam says that when man thinks its thought and when God thinks it is creation.
Imam is the one in whose thought all of existence is encompassed.
Try to understand the magnitude of what this means. You cant because his magnitude is above our imagination or Human intellect.
Can you dream or think without yourself in it.
That is why Imam has to be present in creation at all times.
Just as without you your dream or thought disappears similiarly without Imam everything ends.
To be in the thought of Allah and the zaat of Allah is two completely different things but in essence not different. I think its in the zaat of Allah that shifat can exist.
All the shifati names are applicable to the living Imam of the time. The one who is above all else is also above and beyond all shifats, language , communication.
Talking about frames of reference what is constant between all the different frames of reference.
That in which they all exist.
Like a friend of mine named Nizar says "Observe the observer" (an exercise that will help understand what I am trying to say here)
Shams
Re: nice discussion
YAM Shamshushamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad,
Thought I should share my thoughts
The BUK farman about the 3 nur's
The higher Nur (above all else)=Haq Nur
Nur of H. Aly=Sat Nur
Brahma kahe so Nur=Farman of Imam=Nur-e-Imammat
What is the relationship of Gur Bhrahma, Nur-e-Nabuwwah to this? What is its role.
Imammat
I should have said nur of mursheed
The farmans are always done by the Pirs
Imams give Isme Azam and all other priviledges are delegated to Pir.
What ever Brahma/Nabi/Pir says is Farman which is noor
What ever Imam/Shah/Nar (of gurnar) says is Isme Azam
The Haq Nur is above all else.
The role of nure-nabuwah is to guide murids to the Imam.
Sunlight guides to the sun as Nabi guides to Aly.
Think of he who is above all else as that which powers the sun with the light it possesses.
Sorry about this inadequate example.
YAM
Shams
The farmans are always done by the Pirs
Imams give Isme Azam and all other priviledges are delegated to Pir.
What ever Brahma/Nabi/Pir says is Farman which is noor
What ever Imam/Shah/Nar (of gurnar) says is Isme Azam
The Haq Nur is above all else.
The role of nure-nabuwah is to guide murids to the Imam.
Sunlight guides to the sun as Nabi guides to Aly.
Think of he who is above all else as that which powers the sun with the light it possesses.
Sorry about this inadequate example.
YAM
Shams
BOL and Kalima
YAM Shamshu,
Imam nu BOL Pir nu Farman. In my opinion BOL here refers to the command or Kalimah (first cause) which is diluted by the Pir (first effect) as Farmans to the murids. This is different than the Isme Azam for Baitul Khayal, which is a method of purification. This should be given by the Pir.
Bol as in BUK is a facet of Ibaadat and like other facets, it must be prescribed by the Guide i.e. it is Guru Mantra (Mantra of the Guide). In this respect it is the Pir who determines whether it should be given to a particular individual and what name to prescribe. It is like other facets, a purifying process in order to prepare the souls to enjoy the Sun in your analogy. It should be regarded as a means towards the end and not an end in itself. Because we are veiled from this Sun due to our sins and excessive materialism, the Pir purifies us by means of Ibaadat which includes Dua, Dasond, Seva, knowledge and BOL. There is nothing exclusive about BOL and it is not the only means to attain the Sun. That is why it is not compulsory. I am not undermining its importance for those who have made the commitment. They should practice it rigorously as per the Firmans.
Our Khoja Jamats in the sub continent were not in physical contact with the Imams for centuries. In that case the Pirs must have given BOL if there was BUK as we know it today.
Imam nu BOL Pir nu Farman. In my opinion BOL here refers to the command or Kalimah (first cause) which is diluted by the Pir (first effect) as Farmans to the murids. This is different than the Isme Azam for Baitul Khayal, which is a method of purification. This should be given by the Pir.
Bol as in BUK is a facet of Ibaadat and like other facets, it must be prescribed by the Guide i.e. it is Guru Mantra (Mantra of the Guide). In this respect it is the Pir who determines whether it should be given to a particular individual and what name to prescribe. It is like other facets, a purifying process in order to prepare the souls to enjoy the Sun in your analogy. It should be regarded as a means towards the end and not an end in itself. Because we are veiled from this Sun due to our sins and excessive materialism, the Pir purifies us by means of Ibaadat which includes Dua, Dasond, Seva, knowledge and BOL. There is nothing exclusive about BOL and it is not the only means to attain the Sun. That is why it is not compulsory. I am not undermining its importance for those who have made the commitment. They should practice it rigorously as per the Firmans.
Our Khoja Jamats in the sub continent were not in physical contact with the Imams for centuries. In that case the Pirs must have given BOL if there was BUK as we know it today.
Re: Dhat - Sifat
kmaherali wrote:There is nothing wrong in disagreements...
MHI has never mentioned that he is the Pir.
He does not have to, it has already been said clearly in the Will of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.
And I have seen Hazar Imam's talika, sometimes giving paternal AND maternal blessing and sometimes giving ONLY paternal blessings.
Nagib
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_thaillestlunatic_
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I agree with ya Nagib on this one
it is clearly said but most khoja's think Imam guides the murids but really
it is the Pir who guides murids to the Imam. I don't ever think I have ever
heard Imam say he is Pir. We all know he is. But sometimes he says it is
only the IMAM of the Time who can guide Murids but dosen't the Pir function as to guiding the murids? Why wouldn't Imam say it is the Pir instead of the Imam? This is one of the most misconceptions people think when they only refer to Imam as a guide and nothing else.
YAM
it is clearly said but most khoja's think Imam guides the murids but really
it is the Pir who guides murids to the Imam. I don't ever think I have ever
heard Imam say he is Pir. We all know he is. But sometimes he says it is
only the IMAM of the Time who can guide Murids but dosen't the Pir function as to guiding the murids? Why wouldn't Imam say it is the Pir instead of the Imam? This is one of the most misconceptions people think when they only refer to Imam as a guide and nothing else.
YAM
YAM,
In my opinion the reason that MHI does not say he is the Pir is that not all Jamats have that understanding although it is clear in Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's will. For example, if you study Nasir Khusraw there is no mention of Piratan as we understand it. According to him, Imam is an interpreter or inheritor of the prophet which is different than the Ginanic understanding of Imam as Vishnu.
In my opinion Imam as a guide as stated by MHI is a compromise or common denominator between various traditions within the diversity. It does not compromise our understanding because he is both a Pir and Shah. Therefore when he says he is the guide we must interprete that he is saying it as a Pir.
In my opinion the reason that MHI does not say he is the Pir is that not all Jamats have that understanding although it is clear in Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's will. For example, if you study Nasir Khusraw there is no mention of Piratan as we understand it. According to him, Imam is an interpreter or inheritor of the prophet which is different than the Ginanic understanding of Imam as Vishnu.
In my opinion Imam as a guide as stated by MHI is a compromise or common denominator between various traditions within the diversity. It does not compromise our understanding because he is both a Pir and Shah. Therefore when he says he is the guide we must interprete that he is saying it as a Pir.
Re: Girbavali
YAM Shamshu,shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad Kmaherali,
In Girbavali Pir Sadardeen has stated that every single word of the Imam is "mantra".
mantra=bol=isme azam.
I would like to see the actual quote from the Girbavali.
Yes, I have said that every word from the Imam is Bol (Imam nu bol) which is diluted into a Farman by the Pir, in that sense the Farman is also Isme Azam. What I disagree is that it is the isme azam as prescribed for BUK as an individual link and a method for Ibaadat. That is in my view the role of the Pir.
ELSE
How did Imam give this mantra to his murids when he was physically away from his Jamats for centuries?
Does it mean that if you do not have BOL you are not linked to the Imam.