How does it make sense to say that Ismailies are Sufis or not…or Sufis are Ismailies or not…
I mean, Sufism is not like an organized institution…an Ismaili can be a Sufi, in a sense, if he or she follows or practices certain Sufi ways of mystical aspects of Islam and a Sufi can be an Ismaili, Sunni, or from any other branch, or even a Hindu or universalist beyond the boundaries of organized religions…l heard a poem long ago in which the poet mentioned about Musalman and Musalmaniat. He said that Musalmaniat is not just an abstract idea, meaning it can be with anyone including non-Muslims… so is the Sufism.
For me, being a Sufi or not, is an individual matter and cannot be generalized based on the family in which the person is born or affiliated in religious or social contexts. I think most known Islamic Sufis in the past and present are either Shia or Sunni…it’s a domain which over lapses several schisms.
Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni
Biryani,
Lest you are not aware, amongst the beautiful names of Allah which muslims generally use, there is one Ism el aazam or the "Great Name" thro' which miracles are performed and nobody has the knowledge of this Ism el Azaam EXCEPT the Prophets and the Holy Imams !
Secondly each name is different from the others in meaning and effect. Each carries it's own vibrations and quality.
Thirdly most Sufi orders or tariqahs have their own respective "key word" which they have selected from the Holy names of Allah and such a word is known in Sufism as "Ism el Zikr" or the name of "remembrance".
So now what is the common ground between ismailis and Sufis be they Sh'ias or Sunnis? and moving a step forward where is the "uncommon" ground?
Lest you are not aware, amongst the beautiful names of Allah which muslims generally use, there is one Ism el aazam or the "Great Name" thro' which miracles are performed and nobody has the knowledge of this Ism el Azaam EXCEPT the Prophets and the Holy Imams !
Secondly each name is different from the others in meaning and effect. Each carries it's own vibrations and quality.
Thirdly most Sufi orders or tariqahs have their own respective "key word" which they have selected from the Holy names of Allah and such a word is known in Sufism as "Ism el Zikr" or the name of "remembrance".
So now what is the common ground between ismailis and Sufis be they Sh'ias or Sunnis? and moving a step forward where is the "uncommon" ground?
Frankly, I don’t see any straight comparison here…first, for the sake of clearing if there is any misconception, we should separate the terms and the meanings of “Ismailies” and “Ismailism”. Just as in Muslims and Islam…they are two different things and though are related, they do not represent unequivocally each other all the time. So then matter would be about objects and not subjects of the objects…because we can’t generalize or prejudge whole of a group of people collectively…
So what Sufism or Ismailism have in common or uncommon…is something that can be debated…but I am not sure just Ism-e-Azam is the link…and other religions like Hinduism and Budhism and also other Islamic sects have the idea of Ism-e-Azam too, even the aboriginal and Native Americans had such spiritual practices as well…
So what Sufism or Ismailism have in common or uncommon…is something that can be debated…but I am not sure just Ism-e-Azam is the link…and other religions like Hinduism and Budhism and also other Islamic sects have the idea of Ism-e-Azam too, even the aboriginal and Native Americans had such spiritual practices as well…
-
From_Alamut
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- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am
Re: Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni
The Ismailsm and Sufism
The word batin is derived from batan means hidden, concealed, covert, inward, inner or esoteric. Ibn Taymiyya quotes Hasan Basari as related that, "Verily, each Koranic verse has an outer meaning and the inner meaning" (Majmu Fatwa, Riyad, 1382 AH, 13:231). Abu Na'im related from Ibn Masud in his Kitab al-Huliya as quoted by Suyuti in al-Itaqan that, "The Koran indeed revealed in seven words, and there is not a single word which does not possess its outer and inner meanings. No doubt, Ali bin Abu Talib completely commanded the knowledge of both outer and inner meanings." Yusuf al-Bahrani (d. 1772) quotes the Prophet as saying in Kitab al-Burhan fi tafsir al-Koran (1:17) that, "Among you is one who will fight for the tawil of the Koran as I have fought for its tanzil. That one is Ali bin Abu Talib." In another tradition, the Prophet said, "I am the Lord of revelation (sahib al-tanzil) and Ali is the Lord of interpretation (shib al-tawil)." J.K. Birge writes in The Bektashi Order of Dervishes (London, 1937, p. 106) that, "This is understood to mean that Muhammad taught the external facts about what Muslims should believe and what they should do, but it is only through Ali that one can enter into an understanding of their deeper meaning." Abdullah bin Masud said, "The Koran was revealed in seven letters. There is not a single letter but it has an exterior and an interior meaning and with Ali is the knowledge of these." (Kitab al-Burhan fi tafsir al-Koran (1:21). The Ismailis are also called the Batiniyya (esotericists or interiorists) because of professing the inner aspects of Islam, and as such the Ismailism is the batini tariqah.
Ismaili:
The word sufi is derived from safa means purity, because the foremost need in Sufism is to purify the heart. The Ismaili da'is during the 8th century formed a fraternal organization in Basra, known as Ikhwan as-Safa (Brethren Purity) due to advocating Sufic tariqah. Another view suggests that the Sufis are in the first rank (saff'i awwal); others say that the Sufis claim to belong to the ashab'i suffa (the Companions of the Prophet). Some assert its derivation from suf (wool) because of wearing woolen garment (jama'i suf). The phrase labisa'l suf means he clad himself in wool occurred frequently in early Islamic literature. When the ascetism passed into mysticism, the above words generally reduced to mean he became a sufi. Fariduddin Attar writes in Mantiq-ut-Tahir (London, 1924, p. icon_cool.gif that, "The doctrines of the Sufi is ancient in Islam, and is much spread, especially among the partisans of Ali." The Ismaili batini tariqah is the Sufi tariqah. Sufism is a form of tasawwuf in Islam. It is the code of heart (fiqh'l batin), the purification of the soul (tazkiyat'l nafs) or the feeling of God's presence (al-ihsan).
Ismaili:
The Persian word darwish is from the Pahlavi driyosh is most likely derived from darviza meaning poverty. According to another view, the word darwish is composed o two syllables, dar (in) and vish (thought) means in thought. The ultimate goal of the Sufi tariqah of darwish is self-realization, and for remaining in such state (in thought), they are also called darwish. The Sufis mostly in Turkey and Persia adopted the term darwish for them, thus there is no difference between them. Spencer Trimingham writes in The Sufi Orders in Islam (London, 1971, p. 264) that, "Of course, one is darwish and a Sufi at the same time and there is no essential distinction in theory. The Sufi is a darwish and the darwish is a Sufi since neither can be in isolation from the other." The Ismaili tariqah is thus the darwishi tariqah in Islam.
Ismaili:
The Sufis in Damascus and some Arabian lands also became known as the faqir. The word faqir (pl. fuqara) is derived from faqar means poverty. The term serves to designate the Muslim mystic. The Koran says, "O men, you are the poor (al-fuqara) before God; He is the Rich" (35:15). It affirms the infinity of divine plentitude and, in the light of this richness, the state of man's dependence and his utter indigence. The Prophet also said, "Poverty (faqiri) is my pride (fakhri)." Abu Sa'id Fazalullah bin Muhammad al-Mayhani said, "al-faqr huwa'l-ghina billah means the faqiri is a wealth in God (cf. Kash al-Mahjub, London, 1911, p. 22). One of the Sufis defines the term faqir that, "The faqir is not be whose hand is empty of provisions, but he whose nature is empty of desires" (Ibid. p. 25). In sum, the tariqah of the faqir is the tariqah of the Sufis and darwish. "Hence, the term darwish referring to a person who possesses this "poverty" is the same as the Arabic term faqir used in Sufism for Muhammadan poverty" (The Encyclopaedia of Religion, 4:240).
It is therefore evident that the Shi'ite Ismaili is a Batini tariqah, the Sufis tariqah, the Darwishi tariqah or the Faqiri tariqah in Islam. It is an intellectual tariqah. The cornerstone of the Ismaili tariqah is the concept of the Imamate. The Imam is a spiritual Guide and exhorts his followers the interpretation in accordance with the time for their worldly and spiritual progress. It must be noted that Ismaili tariqah is not a random offshoot of Islam, nor is it a hotchpotch of other faiths. Ismaili tariqah is the kernel of Islam that the Prophet himself very carefully separated from the common injunctions of the Shariah. This kernel was kept reserved for the privileged few, and kept on the other hand the Shariah for the mass of ummah. There is much more in Islam than performing salat and saum.
By: Dr. D.S. Merchant
Article Directory: http://www.articledashboard.com
Reference:
http://www.articledashboard.com/Article/Ismaili/516575
The word batin is derived from batan means hidden, concealed, covert, inward, inner or esoteric. Ibn Taymiyya quotes Hasan Basari as related that, "Verily, each Koranic verse has an outer meaning and the inner meaning" (Majmu Fatwa, Riyad, 1382 AH, 13:231). Abu Na'im related from Ibn Masud in his Kitab al-Huliya as quoted by Suyuti in al-Itaqan that, "The Koran indeed revealed in seven words, and there is not a single word which does not possess its outer and inner meanings. No doubt, Ali bin Abu Talib completely commanded the knowledge of both outer and inner meanings." Yusuf al-Bahrani (d. 1772) quotes the Prophet as saying in Kitab al-Burhan fi tafsir al-Koran (1:17) that, "Among you is one who will fight for the tawil of the Koran as I have fought for its tanzil. That one is Ali bin Abu Talib." In another tradition, the Prophet said, "I am the Lord of revelation (sahib al-tanzil) and Ali is the Lord of interpretation (shib al-tawil)." J.K. Birge writes in The Bektashi Order of Dervishes (London, 1937, p. 106) that, "This is understood to mean that Muhammad taught the external facts about what Muslims should believe and what they should do, but it is only through Ali that one can enter into an understanding of their deeper meaning." Abdullah bin Masud said, "The Koran was revealed in seven letters. There is not a single letter but it has an exterior and an interior meaning and with Ali is the knowledge of these." (Kitab al-Burhan fi tafsir al-Koran (1:21). The Ismailis are also called the Batiniyya (esotericists or interiorists) because of professing the inner aspects of Islam, and as such the Ismailism is the batini tariqah.
Ismaili:
The word sufi is derived from safa means purity, because the foremost need in Sufism is to purify the heart. The Ismaili da'is during the 8th century formed a fraternal organization in Basra, known as Ikhwan as-Safa (Brethren Purity) due to advocating Sufic tariqah. Another view suggests that the Sufis are in the first rank (saff'i awwal); others say that the Sufis claim to belong to the ashab'i suffa (the Companions of the Prophet). Some assert its derivation from suf (wool) because of wearing woolen garment (jama'i suf). The phrase labisa'l suf means he clad himself in wool occurred frequently in early Islamic literature. When the ascetism passed into mysticism, the above words generally reduced to mean he became a sufi. Fariduddin Attar writes in Mantiq-ut-Tahir (London, 1924, p. icon_cool.gif that, "The doctrines of the Sufi is ancient in Islam, and is much spread, especially among the partisans of Ali." The Ismaili batini tariqah is the Sufi tariqah. Sufism is a form of tasawwuf in Islam. It is the code of heart (fiqh'l batin), the purification of the soul (tazkiyat'l nafs) or the feeling of God's presence (al-ihsan).
Ismaili:
The Persian word darwish is from the Pahlavi driyosh is most likely derived from darviza meaning poverty. According to another view, the word darwish is composed o two syllables, dar (in) and vish (thought) means in thought. The ultimate goal of the Sufi tariqah of darwish is self-realization, and for remaining in such state (in thought), they are also called darwish. The Sufis mostly in Turkey and Persia adopted the term darwish for them, thus there is no difference between them. Spencer Trimingham writes in The Sufi Orders in Islam (London, 1971, p. 264) that, "Of course, one is darwish and a Sufi at the same time and there is no essential distinction in theory. The Sufi is a darwish and the darwish is a Sufi since neither can be in isolation from the other." The Ismaili tariqah is thus the darwishi tariqah in Islam.
Ismaili:
The Sufis in Damascus and some Arabian lands also became known as the faqir. The word faqir (pl. fuqara) is derived from faqar means poverty. The term serves to designate the Muslim mystic. The Koran says, "O men, you are the poor (al-fuqara) before God; He is the Rich" (35:15). It affirms the infinity of divine plentitude and, in the light of this richness, the state of man's dependence and his utter indigence. The Prophet also said, "Poverty (faqiri) is my pride (fakhri)." Abu Sa'id Fazalullah bin Muhammad al-Mayhani said, "al-faqr huwa'l-ghina billah means the faqiri is a wealth in God (cf. Kash al-Mahjub, London, 1911, p. 22). One of the Sufis defines the term faqir that, "The faqir is not be whose hand is empty of provisions, but he whose nature is empty of desires" (Ibid. p. 25). In sum, the tariqah of the faqir is the tariqah of the Sufis and darwish. "Hence, the term darwish referring to a person who possesses this "poverty" is the same as the Arabic term faqir used in Sufism for Muhammadan poverty" (The Encyclopaedia of Religion, 4:240).
It is therefore evident that the Shi'ite Ismaili is a Batini tariqah, the Sufis tariqah, the Darwishi tariqah or the Faqiri tariqah in Islam. It is an intellectual tariqah. The cornerstone of the Ismaili tariqah is the concept of the Imamate. The Imam is a spiritual Guide and exhorts his followers the interpretation in accordance with the time for their worldly and spiritual progress. It must be noted that Ismaili tariqah is not a random offshoot of Islam, nor is it a hotchpotch of other faiths. Ismaili tariqah is the kernel of Islam that the Prophet himself very carefully separated from the common injunctions of the Shariah. This kernel was kept reserved for the privileged few, and kept on the other hand the Shariah for the mass of ummah. There is much more in Islam than performing salat and saum.
By: Dr. D.S. Merchant
Article Directory: http://www.articledashboard.com
Reference:
http://www.articledashboard.com/Article/Ismaili/516575
"...Ismaili tariqah is the kernel of Islam that the Prophet himself very carefully separated from the common injunctions of the Shariah. This kernel was kept reserved for the privileged few, and kept on the other hand the Shariah for the mass of ummah. There is much more in Islam than performing salat and saum...."
The "progression" of the other Sufis is certainly there but is limited without the Murshid e Kamil which they don't have by their side....they don't have the "Isme el Azaam" - they only have the Ism el Zikr which they pick from the beautiful names of Allah .....now actually muslim theologians have reported that there are 300 names of Allah in Torah ! 300 in Zaboor ; 300 in Injeel and then there are some too in ahadith.....the quran may have about 99 or so....and so the Imam e zamana has knowledge of all the names of remembrance, after the prophet....plus Allah commands us all to remember HIm so that HE can then guide us all to the Right path ! Now what is this Right path ? It is the path of those upon whom HE - the Exalted bestowed HIS favours ! so who are they ? In our Du'a we mention them clearly.....this then is a clear distinction....the ismailis have the isme el Azaam ! the rest only have the isme el Zikr !
Hope someone does not get flu attacks !
The "progression" of the other Sufis is certainly there but is limited without the Murshid e Kamil which they don't have by their side....they don't have the "Isme el Azaam" - they only have the Ism el Zikr which they pick from the beautiful names of Allah .....now actually muslim theologians have reported that there are 300 names of Allah in Torah ! 300 in Zaboor ; 300 in Injeel and then there are some too in ahadith.....the quran may have about 99 or so....and so the Imam e zamana has knowledge of all the names of remembrance, after the prophet....plus Allah commands us all to remember HIm so that HE can then guide us all to the Right path ! Now what is this Right path ? It is the path of those upon whom HE - the Exalted bestowed HIS favours ! so who are they ? In our Du'a we mention them clearly.....this then is a clear distinction....the ismailis have the isme el Azaam ! the rest only have the isme el Zikr !
Hope someone does not get flu attacks !
-
From_Alamut
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am
The Ismaili-Sufi Sage of Pamir: Mubarak-i Wakhani and the Esoteric Tradition of the Pamiri Muslims
Book Description:
The name of Mubarak-i Wakhani (1839-1903), a Persian (Tajik) mystic poet, musician, astronomer, and Ismaili religious scholar from Badakhshan, is hardly known in modern academic circles related to Persian and Ismaili studies. Despite his importance to Ismaili esoteric thought in general and the Ismaili tradition of the peoples of the Pamir Mountains in particular, Mubarak has received only scant attention from modern scholars. One of the major reasons for Mubarak’s relative obscurity is probably the geographic location of his homeland and its socio-economic, political, and intellectual environment. There has been no serious scholarly research conducted on Mubarak’s life and works. This book is the first introductory study on the subject, and provides the first systematic presentation of the seminal Islamic figure. In the desire to establish an accurate biography of Mubarak and to render his often confused Ismaili-Sufi ideas as lucidly and coherently as possible, this book, by Dr. Abdulmamad Iloliev (PhD, Cambridge University) of the Institute of Ismaili Studies, concentrates on assessing his life and thoughts in their historical and religious context. It explores how far Mubarak’s works represent the indigenous Pamiri perception of Ismailism and where he stands in relation to general Ismaili thought. Likewise, through the study of the works of Mubarak, it seeks to explore the distinctive elements of Pamiri Ismailism, which itself is an interesting, but relatively neglected area in religio-cultural studies of the minor nations within the diverse civilization of Islam in general and the former Soviet Union in particular. This is a must-have resource for all scholars in Islamic Studies.
Reference
http://ismailimail.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... i-muslims/
http://www.cambriapress.com/camber/camb ... 974&page=i
http://www.amazon.com/Ismaili-Sufi-Sage ... 90&sr=8-12
Book Description:
The name of Mubarak-i Wakhani (1839-1903), a Persian (Tajik) mystic poet, musician, astronomer, and Ismaili religious scholar from Badakhshan, is hardly known in modern academic circles related to Persian and Ismaili studies. Despite his importance to Ismaili esoteric thought in general and the Ismaili tradition of the peoples of the Pamir Mountains in particular, Mubarak has received only scant attention from modern scholars. One of the major reasons for Mubarak’s relative obscurity is probably the geographic location of his homeland and its socio-economic, political, and intellectual environment. There has been no serious scholarly research conducted on Mubarak’s life and works. This book is the first introductory study on the subject, and provides the first systematic presentation of the seminal Islamic figure. In the desire to establish an accurate biography of Mubarak and to render his often confused Ismaili-Sufi ideas as lucidly and coherently as possible, this book, by Dr. Abdulmamad Iloliev (PhD, Cambridge University) of the Institute of Ismaili Studies, concentrates on assessing his life and thoughts in their historical and religious context. It explores how far Mubarak’s works represent the indigenous Pamiri perception of Ismailism and where he stands in relation to general Ismaili thought. Likewise, through the study of the works of Mubarak, it seeks to explore the distinctive elements of Pamiri Ismailism, which itself is an interesting, but relatively neglected area in religio-cultural studies of the minor nations within the diverse civilization of Islam in general and the former Soviet Union in particular. This is a must-have resource for all scholars in Islamic Studies.
Reference
http://ismailimail.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... i-muslims/
http://www.cambriapress.com/camber/camb ... 974&page=i
http://www.amazon.com/Ismaili-Sufi-Sage ... 90&sr=8-12
I can’t understand the notion of an “Ismaili” being any superior just because who he or she is, and not what the person’s character and deeds are like…I’ve heard many things like that but that’s just not convincing me. It all sounds just pre-judiciary and self righteous and not justified…and, I think, is wrong before the Creator.
I am not saying that having the faith in the Imam of the Time is not important to us or it does not have any benefits. For me, the salvation lies individually on how the person lives his or her life, no matter who he/she is.
Who is an “ismaili”? Is it someone who is born in an Ismaili family and then just followed the family’s religious traditions for the sake of worldly convenience? or there is more essential and critical requirement than that to be a real “Ismaili”.
It’s kind of like, there are a lot of different kind of people (religions and Tariqah) sitting in a hall (world) and there is one exit toward the truth or God…and there are different paths to go toward that exit and there is a “Master” who knows a better and peaceful way to go toward the exit of Truth. Ismailies are probably more lucky to have been introduced with the Master by being born in the ismaili family and so forth but trusting on the Master and following his directions to go toward the exit is what’s important and it is totally upon the individual…and there are others who are not Ismailies but they can also find and search the better or easier path toward the truth on their own by searching and spiritual struggle with whatever is at their disposal and maybe in some cases identifying the Master of the Hall and so forth and following him directly or indirectly without being in the group of “ismailies”. Master is for everyone in the Hall…not just “Ismailies”. Imam of the Time is for all Human Kind, not just the Ismailies. We happen to give a name “Ismaili” to people who just happened to be introduced to or know the Master in physical or exoteric way by birth and so forth…
Sufism could be, more or less, similar to the path of Ismailism toward the God…but so could be others as well.
Anyways, that’s my two… may be, ten cents.
I am not saying that having the faith in the Imam of the Time is not important to us or it does not have any benefits. For me, the salvation lies individually on how the person lives his or her life, no matter who he/she is.
Who is an “ismaili”? Is it someone who is born in an Ismaili family and then just followed the family’s religious traditions for the sake of worldly convenience? or there is more essential and critical requirement than that to be a real “Ismaili”.
It’s kind of like, there are a lot of different kind of people (religions and Tariqah) sitting in a hall (world) and there is one exit toward the truth or God…and there are different paths to go toward that exit and there is a “Master” who knows a better and peaceful way to go toward the exit of Truth. Ismailies are probably more lucky to have been introduced with the Master by being born in the ismaili family and so forth but trusting on the Master and following his directions to go toward the exit is what’s important and it is totally upon the individual…and there are others who are not Ismailies but they can also find and search the better or easier path toward the truth on their own by searching and spiritual struggle with whatever is at their disposal and maybe in some cases identifying the Master of the Hall and so forth and following him directly or indirectly without being in the group of “ismailies”. Master is for everyone in the Hall…not just “Ismailies”. Imam of the Time is for all Human Kind, not just the Ismailies. We happen to give a name “Ismaili” to people who just happened to be introduced to or know the Master in physical or exoteric way by birth and so forth…
Sufism could be, more or less, similar to the path of Ismailism toward the God…but so could be others as well.
Anyways, that’s my two… may be, ten cents.
Biryani,
Let me offer you my five cents worth of a viewpoint !
A lie does not last long and if the Ismaili Imams were not the TRUE Imams their lie would have perhaps lasted a generation or two but NOT for all these fourteen hundred years plus without any interruption.
Not only have the ismailis celebrated the 50 golden years of their Imam but the unbroken 1400 plus years of Imamat !
Now that is almost 50 generations !
The Imams of a few "offshoots" and the famopus but pathetic "Khoja dissidents" had in the past claimed wrongly that they were the rightful Imams but then within a short time they all disappeared and their Imamat did NOT last as per the covenant of Allah with Abraham...."MY Covenant will NOT reach the Unjust" !....
So tell me Biryani can the blind and seeing be equal? can the Just and the Unjust be equal?
It is not necessarily an issue about superiority or inferiority here. If you know the quran Allah is clear in this regard....and ismailis as per the quranic dictate have organized their practice under Divine Guidance...
" IT is not righteousness that ye turn your face east or west, but righteousness is he who believes in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Books of God and the prophets and gives his wealth for the love of HIM to the near Kith and Kin of the Prophet and to the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who seek help and those who keep up the prayer and those who pay their religious dues and those who keep their promise and fulfill their bayah when they make one and those who shows patience in tribulation and in times of stress and those who are sincere....and God fearing..."
Let me remind you that the Prophet has said.."there will be only a small Jamat in my Umma who will always remain on the RIGHT PATH...Many will try and destroy this Jamat but in vain....Islam will spread all over the world..."
I hope Akbar Maherally is listening !
Now my five cents worth is that this small Jamat is Jamat e Ismailis (Nizaris) because they are holding onto the TWO precious and weighty things the Prophet left behind !
They are holding to the ROPE of Allah ! They are holding to the Nur e Imamah !
Thus they are Obedient for they have obeyed Allah ! They have Obeyed the Prophet SAW ! and now they are obeying the Olil Amr from his pure progeny !
About some 15-20 million small Jamat is one of the most organized, educated, advanced and cohesive community in the world today !
Ismailis are not fanatics and that is why there is this concept of "pluralism" which they propagate.
We do not victimize anyone on religious grounds. Ismailis are pragmatic ! progressive ! and liberal !
During the time of the Prophet SAW the muslimeen had this privilege of seeing him; meeting him; talking to him; kissing his hand; receiving his blessings; inviting him to visit their homes; offering some food or gifts.
The prophet used to resolve their problems and give advice and provide guidance.
The Prophet was the best source for the muslims then.
He was the hub of the wheel of their lives...the muslims revolved around him. His physical presence was a profound influence in every respect.
But the Munafiqun had never enjoyed all this and so today they don't understand the Imam also...and so wasps and caterpillars cannot be the same - there is no comparison except perhaps as an exception made for some individuals who like you do not fully understand what it means to have the blessings of the Imam with us?
Let me offer you my five cents worth of a viewpoint !
A lie does not last long and if the Ismaili Imams were not the TRUE Imams their lie would have perhaps lasted a generation or two but NOT for all these fourteen hundred years plus without any interruption.
Not only have the ismailis celebrated the 50 golden years of their Imam but the unbroken 1400 plus years of Imamat !
Now that is almost 50 generations !
The Imams of a few "offshoots" and the famopus but pathetic "Khoja dissidents" had in the past claimed wrongly that they were the rightful Imams but then within a short time they all disappeared and their Imamat did NOT last as per the covenant of Allah with Abraham...."MY Covenant will NOT reach the Unjust" !....
So tell me Biryani can the blind and seeing be equal? can the Just and the Unjust be equal?
It is not necessarily an issue about superiority or inferiority here. If you know the quran Allah is clear in this regard....and ismailis as per the quranic dictate have organized their practice under Divine Guidance...
" IT is not righteousness that ye turn your face east or west, but righteousness is he who believes in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Books of God and the prophets and gives his wealth for the love of HIM to the near Kith and Kin of the Prophet and to the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who seek help and those who keep up the prayer and those who pay their religious dues and those who keep their promise and fulfill their bayah when they make one and those who shows patience in tribulation and in times of stress and those who are sincere....and God fearing..."
Let me remind you that the Prophet has said.."there will be only a small Jamat in my Umma who will always remain on the RIGHT PATH...Many will try and destroy this Jamat but in vain....Islam will spread all over the world..."
I hope Akbar Maherally is listening !
Now my five cents worth is that this small Jamat is Jamat e Ismailis (Nizaris) because they are holding onto the TWO precious and weighty things the Prophet left behind !
They are holding to the ROPE of Allah ! They are holding to the Nur e Imamah !
Thus they are Obedient for they have obeyed Allah ! They have Obeyed the Prophet SAW ! and now they are obeying the Olil Amr from his pure progeny !
About some 15-20 million small Jamat is one of the most organized, educated, advanced and cohesive community in the world today !
Ismailis are not fanatics and that is why there is this concept of "pluralism" which they propagate.
We do not victimize anyone on religious grounds. Ismailis are pragmatic ! progressive ! and liberal !
During the time of the Prophet SAW the muslimeen had this privilege of seeing him; meeting him; talking to him; kissing his hand; receiving his blessings; inviting him to visit their homes; offering some food or gifts.
The prophet used to resolve their problems and give advice and provide guidance.
The Prophet was the best source for the muslims then.
He was the hub of the wheel of their lives...the muslims revolved around him. His physical presence was a profound influence in every respect.
But the Munafiqun had never enjoyed all this and so today they don't understand the Imam also...and so wasps and caterpillars cannot be the same - there is no comparison except perhaps as an exception made for some individuals who like you do not fully understand what it means to have the blessings of the Imam with us?
I think, there is no worth going on with this because most of your points are just irrelevant and too off the topic to discuss them here…some of us just have different pre-requisite standards and values to begin with before something can be debated between them that can go in an expected direction…
I just wanna say that all people are spiritually Human Beings and not wasps or caterpillars…or anything less than Human…that’s just one of the basic cosmopolitan ethics and I find myself relatively much blessed and at peace with what I have and what I understand.
I just wanna say that all people are spiritually Human Beings and not wasps or caterpillars…or anything less than Human…that’s just one of the basic cosmopolitan ethics and I find myself relatively much blessed and at peace with what I have and what I understand.
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InquisitiveGirl
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 pm
Biryani, Kudos to you in expending energy on getting your opinion out. I find that a lot of members here are staunch on Ismaili "Superiority."
Hasn't Hazar Imam himself been promoting the awareness of this Ayaat:
"O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women” (4:1).
Hasn't Hazar Imam mentioned that building bridges will help the flow of information - that is, we can learn more about our faith's history FROM OTHERS and vice versa?
In my humble opinion, I am a human first, then I am defined by my religion. And my religion is Islam, which I practice through the Ismaili point of view.
Biryani, I have been reading your posts for a while and would like to just commend you on your efforts and your ability to express yourself so eloquently.
Cheers
Hasn't Hazar Imam himself been promoting the awareness of this Ayaat:
"O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women” (4:1).
Hasn't Hazar Imam mentioned that building bridges will help the flow of information - that is, we can learn more about our faith's history FROM OTHERS and vice versa?
In my humble opinion, I am a human first, then I am defined by my religion. And my religion is Islam, which I practice through the Ismaili point of view.
Biryani, I have been reading your posts for a while and would like to just commend you on your efforts and your ability to express yourself so eloquently.
Cheers
Dear biryani,Biryani wrote:
It’s kind of like, there are a lot of different kind of people (religions and Tariqah) sitting in a hall (world) and there is one exit toward the truth or God…and there are different paths to go toward that exit and there is a “Master” who knows a better and peaceful way to go toward the exit of Truth. Ismailies are probably more lucky to have been introduced with the Master by being born in the ismaili family and so forth but trusting on the Master and following his directions to go toward the exit is what’s important and it is totally upon the individual…and there are others who are not Ismailies but they can also find and search the better or easier path toward the truth on their own by searching and spiritual struggle with whatever is at their disposal and maybe in some cases identifying the Master of the Hall and so forth and following him directly or indirectly without being in the group of “ismailies”. Master is for everyone in the Hall…not just “Ismailies”. Imam of the Time is for all Human Kind, not just the Ismailies. We happen to give a name “Ismaili” to people who just happened to be introduced to or know the Master in physical or exoteric way by birth and so forth….
Interesting analogy! The “One” exit toward the truth or God as you mentioned and that there are different paths to that exit and then there is a “Master” who knows the right way to the exit is little confusing. If we are all sitting in a “hall” and know that there is only one “exit” to the “Truth”, then why do we need the “Master”. We already know our salvation is behind that only “one” exit door.
I look at it this way. We are sitting in a “hall” which has several “exits”. Then there is a “guide” (Imam) in the hall and whoever seeks to receive his guidance is directed to the right exit. People in the hall mistake others as their guides and end up at the wrong exit. Surah 17:71 says:
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
It is not our immediate salvation behind “one” of those “exits”, rather it is a path to our salvation behind that exit door. What lies behind the exit door is hereafter and a long march for our souls to attain salvation (fana fillah). It is extremely important that we line up at the right door.
You also mentioned :
…and there are others who are not Ismailies but they can also find and search the better or easier path toward the truth on their own by searching and spiritual struggle with whatever is at their disposal…
In my opinion there is no better or easier path. There is only one path which is “siratul musaqeem”. The path of those God has bestowed favors upon. Here I would like to quote a hadith of our Prophet:
The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Whoever dies without recognizing the Imam of His Time dies the death of ignorance.”
In my humble opinion all the other exits in the hall lead to ignorance.
He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions." [9.33]
"The essence (batin) of Ismailism remains unchanged but the external aspect (zahir) changes.
The Nizari Ismailies believe that the first man who existed on earth was an Imam and the last will also be an Imam...
These two are in essence the same, the archetype of the Spirit that pervades the whole of Creation.
As Imam Ali is reported to have stated in the Sermon of the Great Declaration (khutbat al-bayan):
"I am the First and the Last."
All Imams are thus understood in Ismaili doctrine to be one of the same essence transmitting the Sophia Perennis (Eternal Wisdom) to the seekers of enlightenment from generation to generation until the end of time."
- Diana Steigerwald, (The Multiple Facets of Ismailism, Sacred Web, Volume 9, pp. 87, July 2002)
"The essence (batin) of Ismailism remains unchanged but the external aspect (zahir) changes.
The Nizari Ismailies believe that the first man who existed on earth was an Imam and the last will also be an Imam...
These two are in essence the same, the archetype of the Spirit that pervades the whole of Creation.
As Imam Ali is reported to have stated in the Sermon of the Great Declaration (khutbat al-bayan):
"I am the First and the Last."
All Imams are thus understood in Ismaili doctrine to be one of the same essence transmitting the Sophia Perennis (Eternal Wisdom) to the seekers of enlightenment from generation to generation until the end of time."
- Diana Steigerwald, (The Multiple Facets of Ismailism, Sacred Web, Volume 9, pp. 87, July 2002)
Quran Sura 4:174, 175 Yaa- 'ayyu-hannasu qad O mankind! Verily
Jaa- 'akum There hath come to you
Bur-hanum A convincing proof
Mir Rabbikum From your Lord:
Wa 'anzalnaa 'ilaykum [b]For We have sent unto you
Nuram mubiinaa A light (that is) manifest. [/b]
Fa- 'ammal'lazina 'aamanu Then those who believe
Bil-laahi wa' -tasamu In God, and hold fast
Bihi fasa-yud-khiluhum fi To Him, - soon will he
Rahmatim-minhu Admit them to Mercy
Wa Fazlin And Grace from Himself,
Wa yah-dihim 'ilayhi And guide them to Himself
Siraatam Mustaqima. By a straight path.
"In Islam, the Holy Koran says that man is God’s noblest creation to whom He has entrusted the stewardship of all that is on earth..."
Jaa- 'akum There hath come to you
Bur-hanum A convincing proof
Mir Rabbikum From your Lord:
Wa 'anzalnaa 'ilaykum [b]For We have sent unto you
Nuram mubiinaa A light (that is) manifest. [/b]
Fa- 'ammal'lazina 'aamanu Then those who believe
Bil-laahi wa' -tasamu In God, and hold fast
Bihi fasa-yud-khiluhum fi To Him, - soon will he
Rahmatim-minhu Admit them to Mercy
Wa Fazlin And Grace from Himself,
Wa yah-dihim 'ilayhi And guide them to Himself
Siraatam Mustaqima. By a straight path.
"In Islam, the Holy Koran says that man is God’s noblest creation to whom He has entrusted the stewardship of all that is on earth..."
Pardesi…I may not have described or elaborated what I meant to say clearly enough…but basically, your analogy is different than mine and so is the end result…
What I meant to say is that exit IS to the God or Truth…and people are just scattered all over the hall (world)…looking for the Exit (Salvation toward the God) and off course this hall is freaking huge with lots of paths (religions)in there. some paths are just wrong and tough to go through while some are rather easier and some just take you to the washrooms or in the back alley of darkness, but obviously one has to be the easiest (natural) and shortest path…and all these people are associated with these paths depending upon wherever Creator has put them by birth and so forth…
Ismailies may tend to consider that they are special because they know this Master of the Hall as (Imam of the Time)…at least on the Zahiri level. But what’s important is to follow his direction…right? or else even they can end up in the dark in back alley…on the other hand, the others (non-ismailies) can try to find the Exit (Salvation toward God) by struggling and searching on their own path and if their hearts and deeds are clean, God helps them and they will succeed to get the salvation after all…
I just can’t understand any idea which gives more importance to what you are in this world than what you actually do. Fine, an Ismaili is a lucky soul to be given the "right path" on a silver plate…but that’s not all, the key to salvation is if that person actually follows that right path…
What I meant to say is that exit IS to the God or Truth…and people are just scattered all over the hall (world)…looking for the Exit (Salvation toward the God) and off course this hall is freaking huge with lots of paths (religions)in there. some paths are just wrong and tough to go through while some are rather easier and some just take you to the washrooms or in the back alley of darkness, but obviously one has to be the easiest (natural) and shortest path…and all these people are associated with these paths depending upon wherever Creator has put them by birth and so forth…
Ismailies may tend to consider that they are special because they know this Master of the Hall as (Imam of the Time)…at least on the Zahiri level. But what’s important is to follow his direction…right? or else even they can end up in the dark in back alley…on the other hand, the others (non-ismailies) can try to find the Exit (Salvation toward God) by struggling and searching on their own path and if their hearts and deeds are clean, God helps them and they will succeed to get the salvation after all…
I just can’t understand any idea which gives more importance to what you are in this world than what you actually do. Fine, an Ismaili is a lucky soul to be given the "right path" on a silver plate…but that’s not all, the key to salvation is if that person actually follows that right path…
Dear Biryani,
I lost you there for a little bit when you tried to explain your analogy in the second para of your post. But I think I got your point after reading one of your previous post and the last para of your last post. I agree that simply being an Ismaili does not automatically give you a free ticket to heaven.
You said:
Both these aspects go hand in hand. The question here is what do we expect on the other side of the gate that you mentioned. If by salvation you mean to attain Jannat then I would like you to define jannat to me first. Jannat in my opinion is not a physical domain.
When we fulfill our ritual duties it makes us pure and humble and awakens and energizes our soul which in turn progresses in spiritual realm towards salvation even while we are physically alive in this world through our ibadat and badagi. It is after our death the souls go through the gate that you mentioned and are awarded a certain stage depending on how much progress we made during our lifetime. This is where I saw your point that being Ismaili is nothing to write home about, It is what we do and how we do sets the stage for our souls for its journey forward.
You mentioned:
Eji pantrees ane pachvees,
Sol ane aa(n)th,
Vaara chorasi phariyo
Tune saan na aavi ray
Uth jag man mera.
We found this religion not by sheer luck but with Allah’s rahmat and mercy. We have worked and paid our dues to get here and the peer is reminding us of what we have gone through to get this birth. We must have been good souls in our previous pheras that we were given the chance to recognize and know the Shah Peer of our times. It is not a silver platter, rather a double edged sword that we must walk (the pull siraat) to get to the other side and attain salvation. But first we must get to the right gate and Imam of the time is the one who guides us to the right gate. I guess in that sense we are luckier than others.
I lost you there for a little bit when you tried to explain your analogy in the second para of your post. But I think I got your point after reading one of your previous post and the last para of your last post. I agree that simply being an Ismaili does not automatically give you a free ticket to heaven.
You said:
I agree. But that is just one aspect. I believe heaven is open to everyone and if I feel that I am in just because I am an Ismaili then I am in for a bitter surprise. The other aspect is fulfilling our religious duties. Religious duties not only include the rituals like daily prayers, but also include extra prayers like ibadat, the early morning prayers which are in addition to your daily rituals and although not compulsory but a must if you seek salvation for your soul. Remember the salvation is for the soul and not the body which will remain behind and mix in dust.I am not saying that having the faith in the Imam of the Time is not important to us or it does not have any benefits. For me, the salvation lies individually on how the person lives his or her life, no matter who he/she is.
Both these aspects go hand in hand. The question here is what do we expect on the other side of the gate that you mentioned. If by salvation you mean to attain Jannat then I would like you to define jannat to me first. Jannat in my opinion is not a physical domain.
When we fulfill our ritual duties it makes us pure and humble and awakens and energizes our soul which in turn progresses in spiritual realm towards salvation even while we are physically alive in this world through our ibadat and badagi. It is after our death the souls go through the gate that you mentioned and are awarded a certain stage depending on how much progress we made during our lifetime. This is where I saw your point that being Ismaili is nothing to write home about, It is what we do and how we do sets the stage for our souls for its journey forward.
You mentioned:
Again, I agree on the importance part. But for the Ismailis the ante is upped when they are given birth in a Ismaili family.I just can’t understand any idea which gives more importance to what you are in this world than what you actually do. Fine, an Ismaili is a lucky soul to be given the "right path" on a silver plate…but that’s not all, the key to salvation is if that person actually follows that right path…
Eji pantrees ane pachvees,
Sol ane aa(n)th,
Vaara chorasi phariyo
Tune saan na aavi ray
Uth jag man mera.
We found this religion not by sheer luck but with Allah’s rahmat and mercy. We have worked and paid our dues to get here and the peer is reminding us of what we have gone through to get this birth. We must have been good souls in our previous pheras that we were given the chance to recognize and know the Shah Peer of our times. It is not a silver platter, rather a double edged sword that we must walk (the pull siraat) to get to the other side and attain salvation. But first we must get to the right gate and Imam of the time is the one who guides us to the right gate. I guess in that sense we are luckier than others.
The Holy Qur'an says, "There are some people who say, ‘we believe in God and in the day of judgement' but in reality they do not believe."
This is the characteristic of the hypocrites who do not profess what they believe in and do not believe in what they profess.
By the words, ‘we have faith in God and the day of judgement' they intend to say that all their actions will be judged by God who will reward or punish them on the Day of Judgement.
God has belied them by saying that "In reality they do not believe"; that is to say they do not speak the truth.
The knowledge of the oneness of God is beyond the acquisition of human mind by itself.
There are some people who maintain that they can acquire this knowledge by themselves ...If they think that by means of their intellect they can know the maker by seeing the things made and the Creator by looking at His creation, it is the height of insolence on their part.
It is preposterous to imagine that a human being can acquire this knowledge without the help of the proper mediums namely the Prophets and the Imams.
We know by experience that even the power of talking which is inherent in man and which is much easier for him to acquire than the knowledge of the Oneness of God, does not develop in him without the help of a teacher.
Although it is in his nature to talk and God has provided him with the necessary apparatus for it, he does not and cannot talk unless he learns to do it from some one else.
If this is the case of his talking how is it possible for him to acquire the complicated knowledge of the oneness of God without the help of a Prophet or an Imam? It is an impossibility.
This is the characteristic of the hypocrites who do not profess what they believe in and do not believe in what they profess.
By the words, ‘we have faith in God and the day of judgement' they intend to say that all their actions will be judged by God who will reward or punish them on the Day of Judgement.
God has belied them by saying that "In reality they do not believe"; that is to say they do not speak the truth.
The knowledge of the oneness of God is beyond the acquisition of human mind by itself.
There are some people who maintain that they can acquire this knowledge by themselves ...If they think that by means of their intellect they can know the maker by seeing the things made and the Creator by looking at His creation, it is the height of insolence on their part.
It is preposterous to imagine that a human being can acquire this knowledge without the help of the proper mediums namely the Prophets and the Imams.
We know by experience that even the power of talking which is inherent in man and which is much easier for him to acquire than the knowledge of the Oneness of God, does not develop in him without the help of a teacher.
Although it is in his nature to talk and God has provided him with the necessary apparatus for it, he does not and cannot talk unless he learns to do it from some one else.
If this is the case of his talking how is it possible for him to acquire the complicated knowledge of the oneness of God without the help of a Prophet or an Imam? It is an impossibility.
In short, we find that everything that God has created in this world is meant for a certain definite purpose.
It is not visible at first. It has to be drawn out by the intellectual power of man.
For instance, the cultivator draws out corn from the field, the blacksmith makes instruments out of iron, the carpenter makes wooden things from wood and the goldsmith turns out ornaments from gold.
Had God liked to unveil these things by themselves and not kept them latent, the land would have produced cooked bread, dates, grapes, liquors and dates stuffed with almonds.
God did not like to do this and left it to the labour of workman to produce these things in order to prove their superiority over lower animals.
This is practically the case with everything that God has created.
The purpose for which it has been created is to be decided and shaped by man.
It automatically follows now that the ‘Shariat', a code of the laws of Islam, which the Prophet brought with himself, consists of the general principles.
They possess the potentiality of being stretched out and made applicable to different cases, just as the earth, water, fire and air have the potential capacity to produce all sorts of things which man needs.
It is only the ‘Wasees' and the Imams descending from the Prophet, who can draw out the essence from the general principles, like the human beings who draw out the various things they want from earth, water and air.
The source of the religion and the creation of heavens and earth is one and the same.
This clarifies to us the meaning of the verse; "There are signs for men of conviction on earth and in yourselves. Do you not notice them?”
Guide us to the path of those upon whom thou has bestowed Favours...NOT of those cursed Ones ...NOR of those who have gone astray...! So who have gone astray? figure this out now !
It is not visible at first. It has to be drawn out by the intellectual power of man.
For instance, the cultivator draws out corn from the field, the blacksmith makes instruments out of iron, the carpenter makes wooden things from wood and the goldsmith turns out ornaments from gold.
Had God liked to unveil these things by themselves and not kept them latent, the land would have produced cooked bread, dates, grapes, liquors and dates stuffed with almonds.
God did not like to do this and left it to the labour of workman to produce these things in order to prove their superiority over lower animals.
This is practically the case with everything that God has created.
The purpose for which it has been created is to be decided and shaped by man.
It automatically follows now that the ‘Shariat', a code of the laws of Islam, which the Prophet brought with himself, consists of the general principles.
They possess the potentiality of being stretched out and made applicable to different cases, just as the earth, water, fire and air have the potential capacity to produce all sorts of things which man needs.
It is only the ‘Wasees' and the Imams descending from the Prophet, who can draw out the essence from the general principles, like the human beings who draw out the various things they want from earth, water and air.
The source of the religion and the creation of heavens and earth is one and the same.
This clarifies to us the meaning of the verse; "There are signs for men of conviction on earth and in yourselves. Do you not notice them?”
Guide us to the path of those upon whom thou has bestowed Favours...NOT of those cursed Ones ...NOR of those who have gone astray...! So who have gone astray? figure this out now !
Previous life and circumstances around that and afterwards?…hmm…well, I’ve heard and may have even read things like this long ago…and I am not bluntly just shrugging them off or denying the existence of its validity in any form at all…I am just not sure on thier true interpreation and inended context.pardesi wrote:...for the Ismailis the ante is upped when they are given birth in a Ismaili family.
Eji pantrees ane pachvees,
Sol ane aa(n)th,
Vaara chorasi phariyo
Tune saan na aavi ray
Uth jag man mera.
We found this religion not by sheer luck but with Allah’s rahmat and mercy. We have worked and paid our dues to get here and the peer is reminding us of what we have gone through to get this birth. We must have been good souls in our previous pheras that we were given the chance to recognize and know the Shah Peer of our times. It is not a silver platter, rather a double edged sword that we must walk (the pull siraat) to get to the other side and attain salvation. But first we must get to the right gate and Imam of the time is the one who guides us to the right gate. I guess in that sense we are luckier than others.
Help me understand that part of Ginan first… and since that is in a language that I don’t fully understand, I am not able to talk about it, so can you please translate that in English…word to word. Thanks.
till then, I will take that what you’re saying is that all the non-ismailies that we see right now…will be born again as Ismailies if they succeed in getting God’s blessings to be saved…or just convert in Ismailism by some chance in their current life which I suppose will also require God’s blessings, or else they will be salvaged to hell until another chance to please God comes around, or something…eh?
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/c28.html
I wouldn't go too deep into it where the whole topic changes to re-incarnation. The purpose of my quoting this gnan by Syeda Imam Begum was to prove a point that you just don't become an Ismaili by fluke or chance. Your soul was created millions of years ago and it is yearning to get back to its original home and has finally made to this point where Imam Shanasi is in sight which can get the soul back on track to salvation.
There are many other gnans in the ginan section on the left menu that speak of things that you might just laugh at. A true seeker will try to put two and two together to arrive at his/her own conclusions.
I wouldn't go too deep into it where the whole topic changes to re-incarnation. The purpose of my quoting this gnan by Syeda Imam Begum was to prove a point that you just don't become an Ismaili by fluke or chance. Your soul was created millions of years ago and it is yearning to get back to its original home and has finally made to this point where Imam Shanasi is in sight which can get the soul back on track to salvation.
There are many other gnans in the ginan section on the left menu that speak of things that you might just laugh at. A true seeker will try to put two and two together to arrive at his/her own conclusions.
The relation between the One and the two is beautifully described in the following passage:
"The utmost purpose of the servant is that he praises his own (higher) Self which he beholds in the [Divine] Mirror, since there is not aptitude (ability) for the originated (i.e., the created being) to bear the Pre-Existent (i.e., Allah).
Referring to the verse "God encompasses the unbelievers; the lightening dazzles their eyes; when it gives them light, they walk in it, and when the darkness is over them, they halt" (Q. 2:19).
Allusions to the two "Refuge" suras at the end of the Quran: "I take refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak ... from the evil of an envier when he envies" (Q.113:5); and "I take refuge in the Lord of mankind ... from the evil of the whisperer who whispers in the breasts of men, among Jinn and men" (Q. 114:5).
[Source: Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi. The Seven Days of the Heart. Translated by Pablo Beneito and Stephen Hirtenstein. 2000. Anqa Publishing, Oxford. Pages 39-40, 82-83]
"O my Lord, make me rich through You, beyond need of other than You, so that this pure sufficiency leaves me free of all conditions that might make me dependent on any creaturial need or spiritual requirement.
Make me reach the utmost ease in my prosperity [in You] and elevate me to the lote-tree1 of my extreme limit.
Let me witness existence as a cycle and the journey as an orbit, so that I may behold the mystery of Divine Descent to the ultimate ends and the Return to the very beginnings, where speech comes to an end, and the vowel of lâm is silent, where the dot of the ghayn is removed from me and the One returns to the two."
"The utmost purpose of the servant is that he praises his own (higher) Self which he beholds in the [Divine] Mirror, since there is not aptitude (ability) for the originated (i.e., the created being) to bear the Pre-Existent (i.e., Allah).
Referring to the verse "God encompasses the unbelievers; the lightening dazzles their eyes; when it gives them light, they walk in it, and when the darkness is over them, they halt" (Q. 2:19).
Allusions to the two "Refuge" suras at the end of the Quran: "I take refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak ... from the evil of an envier when he envies" (Q.113:5); and "I take refuge in the Lord of mankind ... from the evil of the whisperer who whispers in the breasts of men, among Jinn and men" (Q. 114:5).
[Source: Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi. The Seven Days of the Heart. Translated by Pablo Beneito and Stephen Hirtenstein. 2000. Anqa Publishing, Oxford. Pages 39-40, 82-83]
"O my Lord, make me rich through You, beyond need of other than You, so that this pure sufficiency leaves me free of all conditions that might make me dependent on any creaturial need or spiritual requirement.
Make me reach the utmost ease in my prosperity [in You] and elevate me to the lote-tree1 of my extreme limit.
Let me witness existence as a cycle and the journey as an orbit, so that I may behold the mystery of Divine Descent to the ultimate ends and the Return to the very beginnings, where speech comes to an end, and the vowel of lâm is silent, where the dot of the ghayn is removed from me and the One returns to the two."
When I said "you might laugh at", the term "you" was used in general terms and not intended for your person. There are people (non-ismailis) who come to this website and copy-paste ginans and their meanings of their choice and have a field day on other websites making fun of our beliefs. If they only tried to contemplate they would get the idea. But they dont and that is why I said "you would laugh". Try understanding or explaining the ginan where pir is asking the imam to marry him!
You asked me to explain parts 3 and 4 of the ginan I provided the link for.
What is it that you do not understand. Literally it is pretty clear. Let me know what you understand from it and I will try to elaborate on it with whatever my understanding is. I want to stay away from discussing re-incarnation and that is not the meaning I get from this ginan so if you are trying to push to that end then you are knocking at the wrong door. It is not one of my favorite subjects anyway. The reason I mentioned the 3rd part of the ginan was to show that we did not get this madhab by sheer luck like you thought.
You asked me to explain parts 3 and 4 of the ginan I provided the link for.
What is it that you do not understand. Literally it is pretty clear. Let me know what you understand from it and I will try to elaborate on it with whatever my understanding is. I want to stay away from discussing re-incarnation and that is not the meaning I get from this ginan so if you are trying to push to that end then you are knocking at the wrong door. It is not one of my favorite subjects anyway. The reason I mentioned the 3rd part of the ginan was to show that we did not get this madhab by sheer luck like you thought.
Biryani,
Mowlana Rumi writes in his mathnavi...."Low in the earth, I lived in the realms of Ore & Stone; and then I smiled in many tinted flowers; then roving with the wild and wondering hours, O'er earth and air and ocean's zone, in a new birth, I dived and flew and crept and ran....And all the secret of my presence drew, within a form that brought them all to view....And Lo !, a man ! and then my goal, beyond the clouds, beyond the sky, in realms where none may change or die - in angel form and then away, beyond the bounds of night and day, and life and death, unseen and seen, where all that is hath ever been....and one and whole !.."
The question may arise as to how Mowlana Rumi, the mystic, so faithfully recalls his births and evolutions? It was his sheer power of meditation due to which he reached the stage of "annihilation" in Zikr and his consciousness was fused into his self-hood recollecting all the cycles of his previous births.
Based on this Creative Law of Evolution, the Spirit or Life-energy nascent in Matter, gradually through millions of mutations appeared in man. This life-energy inherent in matter is dormant and is incapable of negative or positive deeds. The vast Cosmic energy of nature uplifts this "life-energy" through the plant life and then it is manifested in the anumal life but the animal has very limited consciousness or self-consciousness and so is not endowed with the power to judge between sin and purity; good or bad and so an animal's actions are guiltless, so to speak and finally the animal life evolves into human life and so based on this operation of law of evolution, the Spirit reaches ultimately to the status of man and with this manifestation of the Spirit in a human form, there comes with it the power to discern between truth and falsehood...man is endowed with a free will and yet he is eternally bound by the laws which he alone is responsible to uphold or to breach and thereby receive or not receive the fruits therefor and so the destiny of what the end result will be, notwithstanding the religion one follows, will also be in the hands of man....what you sow, so shall ye reap ! It is said by the Pir o Murshid that a horse is guided by the reigns....so the Imam is there to guide certainly....but as such there isn't any automatic passage - rather it may be more tough for ismailis to plead ignorance (this is my view)....so where you want to end up, again it is entirely in your own hands.
Life is transient and the Imam has reminded us all of this reality over and over ...Material progress and attainments whilst necessary are not the ultimate goals....man leaves behind everything but goes empty handed except his own deeds and karma goes with him...now his own self-consciousness cannot be re generated unless it is "liberated" from worldly illusions, notwithstanding who you are?
Having an Imam to guide you is a definitive advantage ...for example let us examine some practical applications of the law itself....a Hydrolic power plant is produced when the turbulent river is "dammed" and challenged appropriately to generate electricity....otherwise it remains just a turbulent and uncontrolled river.
With the help of this power , telegrapic messages can also be transmitted over long distances and steam concentrated within a mechanical device is capable of driving large ocean liners and locomotives.....so the prospect of the application remains possible with the presence of the Imam and that is why Allah has commanded in the Quran that WE remember HIM so that HE can guide us to the Right path - the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed HIS favours.....and so when the applications are non existent, the thoughts are not fused and scattered and not trained to pursue a definite trend and so the ultimate goal and/or the desired tasks remain incomplete and fails to create the power of self-consciousness which if created would enable man to experience divine ephiphany and unravel the mysteries - understnd God's creation - secrets - and ultimately progressing towards the 'climax" in the acquisition of the "wisdom".....
The quran says..."AND warn them of the day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of heedlessness and they believe not..." (Sura Maryam)
So there will be anguish for the soul and some will then say..." My Lord ! send me back that I may do right in that which i have left behind..."
but there is no second chance for anyone !
" And the Trumpet is blown and all who are in the heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, SAVE him whom God willeth...Then it is blown a second time and behold them, standing, waiting..." (Sura al Zumar)
and then what happens?
"...they come forth from their graves as though they were scattered locusts..." Sura al Qamar
Each person's reckoning will be conveyed in some particular manner based on their record of deeds - so do good ! serve humanity ! love HIs creation ! pay the "Amanat" and fulfill your covenant with Allah !
"..On the day when the earth will be CHANGED to other than the earth and the heavens also will be changed and they will come forth unto God, the ONE, the IRRESTIBLE...Sura Ibrahim
It is known as the event "blowing of the Trumpet" ! Nobody will escape ! Nobody can ! please be sure and strong in this belief !
Mowlana Rumi writes in his mathnavi...."Low in the earth, I lived in the realms of Ore & Stone; and then I smiled in many tinted flowers; then roving with the wild and wondering hours, O'er earth and air and ocean's zone, in a new birth, I dived and flew and crept and ran....And all the secret of my presence drew, within a form that brought them all to view....And Lo !, a man ! and then my goal, beyond the clouds, beyond the sky, in realms where none may change or die - in angel form and then away, beyond the bounds of night and day, and life and death, unseen and seen, where all that is hath ever been....and one and whole !.."
The question may arise as to how Mowlana Rumi, the mystic, so faithfully recalls his births and evolutions? It was his sheer power of meditation due to which he reached the stage of "annihilation" in Zikr and his consciousness was fused into his self-hood recollecting all the cycles of his previous births.
Based on this Creative Law of Evolution, the Spirit or Life-energy nascent in Matter, gradually through millions of mutations appeared in man. This life-energy inherent in matter is dormant and is incapable of negative or positive deeds. The vast Cosmic energy of nature uplifts this "life-energy" through the plant life and then it is manifested in the anumal life but the animal has very limited consciousness or self-consciousness and so is not endowed with the power to judge between sin and purity; good or bad and so an animal's actions are guiltless, so to speak and finally the animal life evolves into human life and so based on this operation of law of evolution, the Spirit reaches ultimately to the status of man and with this manifestation of the Spirit in a human form, there comes with it the power to discern between truth and falsehood...man is endowed with a free will and yet he is eternally bound by the laws which he alone is responsible to uphold or to breach and thereby receive or not receive the fruits therefor and so the destiny of what the end result will be, notwithstanding the religion one follows, will also be in the hands of man....what you sow, so shall ye reap ! It is said by the Pir o Murshid that a horse is guided by the reigns....so the Imam is there to guide certainly....but as such there isn't any automatic passage - rather it may be more tough for ismailis to plead ignorance (this is my view)....so where you want to end up, again it is entirely in your own hands.
Life is transient and the Imam has reminded us all of this reality over and over ...Material progress and attainments whilst necessary are not the ultimate goals....man leaves behind everything but goes empty handed except his own deeds and karma goes with him...now his own self-consciousness cannot be re generated unless it is "liberated" from worldly illusions, notwithstanding who you are?
Having an Imam to guide you is a definitive advantage ...for example let us examine some practical applications of the law itself....a Hydrolic power plant is produced when the turbulent river is "dammed" and challenged appropriately to generate electricity....otherwise it remains just a turbulent and uncontrolled river.
With the help of this power , telegrapic messages can also be transmitted over long distances and steam concentrated within a mechanical device is capable of driving large ocean liners and locomotives.....so the prospect of the application remains possible with the presence of the Imam and that is why Allah has commanded in the Quran that WE remember HIM so that HE can guide us to the Right path - the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed HIS favours.....and so when the applications are non existent, the thoughts are not fused and scattered and not trained to pursue a definite trend and so the ultimate goal and/or the desired tasks remain incomplete and fails to create the power of self-consciousness which if created would enable man to experience divine ephiphany and unravel the mysteries - understnd God's creation - secrets - and ultimately progressing towards the 'climax" in the acquisition of the "wisdom".....
The quran says..."AND warn them of the day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of heedlessness and they believe not..." (Sura Maryam)
So there will be anguish for the soul and some will then say..." My Lord ! send me back that I may do right in that which i have left behind..."
but there is no second chance for anyone !
" And the Trumpet is blown and all who are in the heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, SAVE him whom God willeth...Then it is blown a second time and behold them, standing, waiting..." (Sura al Zumar)
and then what happens?
"...they come forth from their graves as though they were scattered locusts..." Sura al Qamar
Each person's reckoning will be conveyed in some particular manner based on their record of deeds - so do good ! serve humanity ! love HIs creation ! pay the "Amanat" and fulfill your covenant with Allah !
"..On the day when the earth will be CHANGED to other than the earth and the heavens also will be changed and they will come forth unto God, the ONE, the IRRESTIBLE...Sura Ibrahim
It is known as the event "blowing of the Trumpet" ! Nobody will escape ! Nobody can ! please be sure and strong in this belief !
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
sister znanwalla said :
my dearest sister, i dunno whether you came accross various famous poets ....one of em is rabindranath tagore....he wrote various poems on eternity/heaven etc etc....so if we take rumi's poem/writing as a fact then i guess we should take rabindranath tagores poems as a fact too !!!
dear sister rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?
there was no such thing called power of meditation ....but i would rather call it POWER OF IMAGINATION
rest is upto you !
salam
yaa ali madad
Mowlana Rumi writes in his mathnavi...."Low in the earth, I lived in the realms of Ore & Stone; and then I smiled in many tinted flowers; then roving with the wild and wondering hours, O'er earth and air and ocean's zone, in a new birth, I dived and flew and crept and ran....And all the secret of my presence drew, within a form that brought them all to view....And Lo !, a man ! and then my goal, beyond the clouds, beyond the sky, in realms where none may change or die - in angel form and then away, beyond the bounds of night and day, and life and death, unseen and seen, where all that is hath ever been....and one and whole !.."
The question may arise as to how Mowlana Rumi, the mystic, so faithfully recalls his births and evolutions? It was his sheer power of meditation due to which he reached the stage of "annihilation" in Zikr and his consciousness was fused into his self-hood recollecting all the cycles of his previous births.
my dearest sister, i dunno whether you came accross various famous poets ....one of em is rabindranath tagore....he wrote various poems on eternity/heaven etc etc....so if we take rumi's poem/writing as a fact then i guess we should take rabindranath tagores poems as a fact too !!!
dear sister rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?
there was no such thing called power of meditation ....but i would rather call it POWER OF IMAGINATION
rest is upto you !
salam
yaa ali madad
As per your reasoning what Allah said in the Quran in regards to rebirth should also be a myth right? or Allah's imagination?shiraz.virani wrote:sister znanwalla said :
Mowlana Rumi writes in his mathnavi...."Low in the earth, I lived in the realms of Ore & Stone; and then I smiled in many tinted flowers; then roving with the wild and wondering hours, O'er earth and air and ocean's zone, in a new birth, I dived and flew and crept and ran....And all the secret of my presence drew, within a form that brought them all to view....And Lo !, a man ! and then my goal, beyond the clouds, beyond the sky, in realms where none may change or die - in angel form and then away, beyond the bounds of night and day, and life and death, unseen and seen, where all that is hath ever been....and one and whole !.."
The question may arise as to how Mowlana Rumi, the mystic, so faithfully recalls his births and evolutions? It was his sheer power of meditation due to which he reached the stage of "annihilation" in Zikr and his consciousness was fused into his self-hood recollecting all the cycles of his previous births.
my dearest sister, i dunno whether you came accross various famous poets ....one of em is rabindranath tagore....he wrote various poems on eternity/heaven etc etc....so if we take rumi's poem/writing as a fact then i guess we should take rabindranath tagores poems as a fact too !!!
dear sister rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?
there was no such thing called power of meditation ....but i would rather call it POWER OF IMAGINATION
rest is upto you !
salam
yaa ali madad
Shams
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
pardesi,
What does “Thirty-five and twenty-five, sixteen and eight” represent in part three?
"You have come and gone so many times
and having taken human form
Your Lord knows of all (your doings)
Wake up"...4
Sometimes in translation between different languages the wording of actual message gets twisted and the message becomes little different itself than what it really was. I mean, for example in this case, could the message be that you’ve come in this world so many times and now you’ve taken human form?..Like, you were a pigeon or a horse or a cockroach…even may be a tree before being born as a human…and now you have a chance to take your soul to its final destination by using your intellect and by recognizing the Imam of the Time and following Him…or does it actually mean that we Ismailies really had been here so many times even as humans before this life…but due to lack of 'Recognition of the Imam" we had to come back over and over..how to interpret it right?
What does “Thirty-five and twenty-five, sixteen and eight” represent in part three?
"You have come and gone so many times
and having taken human form
Your Lord knows of all (your doings)
Wake up"...4
Sometimes in translation between different languages the wording of actual message gets twisted and the message becomes little different itself than what it really was. I mean, for example in this case, could the message be that you’ve come in this world so many times and now you’ve taken human form?..Like, you were a pigeon or a horse or a cockroach…even may be a tree before being born as a human…and now you have a chance to take your soul to its final destination by using your intellect and by recognizing the Imam of the Time and following Him…or does it actually mean that we Ismailies really had been here so many times even as humans before this life…but due to lack of 'Recognition of the Imam" we had to come back over and over..how to interpret it right?
Dear Shiraz,shiraz.virani wrote:
dear sister rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?
there was no such thing called power of meditation ....but i would rather call it POWER OF IMAGINATION...
What is your take on "power of meditation"? Does it exist? Or everything is just imagination running wild. Leave the power alone for now, do you believe in meditation?