Ya Ali Madad,
I had a debate with a friend who said that Hazir Imam has made a farman saying that we are Muslim first, Ismaili second. I have a hard time believing this, but he says that he has heard this farman before.
Do any of you know of such a farman and can provide a source (place/date)? Thanks.
Muslim first, Ismaili second
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
Thanks, kmaherali.
According to my interpretation of that excerpt, I dont get the impression that Hazir Imam is saying we are Muslim first, Ismaili second in an ordinal sense.. particularly not in the connotation that several Ismailis tend to suggest. Dont get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you see it that way..
For argument's sake, if I was to interpret it in an ordinal sense, then I would argue that we should identify with being Ismaili before Muslim since Ismailism can be considered an advancement according to the farman.
For instance, if someone attains a PhD he/she is a PhD first and will attach it next to their name, not simply a university graduate.
According to my interpretation of that excerpt, I dont get the impression that Hazir Imam is saying we are Muslim first, Ismaili second in an ordinal sense.. particularly not in the connotation that several Ismailis tend to suggest. Dont get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you see it that way..
For argument's sake, if I was to interpret it in an ordinal sense, then I would argue that we should identify with being Ismaili before Muslim since Ismailism can be considered an advancement according to the farman.
For instance, if someone attains a PhD he/she is a PhD first and will attach it next to their name, not simply a university graduate.
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
I think if we were to order things we would be 'Imami' first. The Imam precedes the perfection of Islam, precedes the Qur'an, and precedes this universe. The name of Islam came a long time after the Imam and we are followers of the Imam first, then Muslims. Remember: Islam is an incomplete religion without the Imam.agakhani wrote:Yes we are Muslime first, and our religion is Islam, but we are Ismailis
There are 73 sect in Islam and Ismaili is one of them which is right path (siratal Mustkim) and you should be proud about that.
LOL…. I just couldn’t resist saying something here as I think sometimes a lot of us just mix up the contexts of different things in which they are said and supposed to be separately understood…this is just one example. I think Hazar Imam was just trying to assert our identity in the physical and modern world for the sake of general solidarity within Muslim Ummah and to minimize the sectarian and other potential frictions. I don’t see any philosophical or spiritual interpretation in it. As we all know that we all were just the Muslims first, then did split in Shia and Sunni and then Ismailies and Twelvers and so forth….
Agakhani,
I don’t feel proud just because I am an Ismaili Muslim, I would be proud if, first, I become a better Human Being then a better Ismaili Muslim. Just being, as in Identity, an Ismaili is nothing significant to me. I see lot of my Christian and Hindu friends who are like angels and saints and some of our Ismailies just blow my mind off…
I don’t feel proud just because I am an Ismaili Muslim, I would be proud if, first, I become a better Human Being then a better Ismaili Muslim. Just being, as in Identity, an Ismaili is nothing significant to me. I see lot of my Christian and Hindu friends who are like angels and saints and some of our Ismailies just blow my mind off…
Sermon 1 - Amir ul Mo'mineen - Ali ibn Talib
"..OR there are those verses (in the Book) which are obligatory in a GIVEN TIME BUT not SO AFTER THAT TIME.
It's prohibitions also differ. Some are MAJOR regarding which there exists the threat of Hell and others are minor for which there are prospects of Forgiveness.
There are also those of which a small portion is also acceptable to Allah but they are capable of being expanded..."
Amir ul Momineen
Sermon 1 - Amir ul Mo'mineen - Ali ibn Talib
"..The Prophet of Islam left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples because prophets do not leave them intentionally in dark without a clear path and a "standing ensign",namely the BOOK clarifying its permission and prohibitions; its obligations and discretion; its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones; its permissible matters and compulsory ones.."
Sermon 1 - Amir ul Mo'mineen - Ali ibn Talib
"..The Prophet of Islam left among you the Book.... its lessons and illustrations; its long and the short ones; its clear and obscure ones; detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities.
The correct guidance now comes from the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt,who have the sacred knowledge of the Tawil.They know the Zahir and the Batin...Allah has purified them so as to touch the recitations !
Amir ul Momineen describes members of his own family:..." They are the life and death for ignorance" Then Imam Ali says: " Their forbearnace tells you of their knowledge and their silence of their wisdom; they do not go against right nor do they differ among themselves.."
4:[56] Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
All said and done, OUr Deen is ISLAM ! Our madhab is Sh'ia Imamiya ! Our Tariqa is "NIZARI Ismailis"...so without the Deen there is no madhab or creed...so now make your own judgment correctly !
"..OR there are those verses (in the Book) which are obligatory in a GIVEN TIME BUT not SO AFTER THAT TIME.
It's prohibitions also differ. Some are MAJOR regarding which there exists the threat of Hell and others are minor for which there are prospects of Forgiveness.
There are also those of which a small portion is also acceptable to Allah but they are capable of being expanded..."
Amir ul Momineen
Sermon 1 - Amir ul Mo'mineen - Ali ibn Talib
"..The Prophet of Islam left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples because prophets do not leave them intentionally in dark without a clear path and a "standing ensign",namely the BOOK clarifying its permission and prohibitions; its obligations and discretion; its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones; its permissible matters and compulsory ones.."
Sermon 1 - Amir ul Mo'mineen - Ali ibn Talib
"..The Prophet of Islam left among you the Book.... its lessons and illustrations; its long and the short ones; its clear and obscure ones; detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities.
The correct guidance now comes from the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt,who have the sacred knowledge of the Tawil.They know the Zahir and the Batin...Allah has purified them so as to touch the recitations !
Amir ul Momineen describes members of his own family:..." They are the life and death for ignorance" Then Imam Ali says: " Their forbearnace tells you of their knowledge and their silence of their wisdom; they do not go against right nor do they differ among themselves.."
4:[56] Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
All said and done, OUr Deen is ISLAM ! Our madhab is Sh'ia Imamiya ! Our Tariqa is "NIZARI Ismailis"...so without the Deen there is no madhab or creed...so now make your own judgment correctly !
Nanwalla , every time I started reading your posts my head started to feel like spinning with a gradually increasing and painful buzz…words on screen started collapsing and darkness was filling across my sight and imagination…and I felt like nausea and vomiting then a sudden and powerful urge to go to washroom…
I wonder if it is just me or has anybody else mentioned to you having the similar symptoms or other problems?
I wonder if it is just me or has anybody else mentioned to you having the similar symptoms or other problems?
Biryani, Actually you have no obligation to read my posts....but it seems that you are unable to resist the temptation to do so....I take your comments as a compliment because it shows that I do make an impact....considering your symptoms which you have just spelt out, i sincerely hope it is not stomach flu brother....just make sure you have a good doctor by your side in case...just in case the condition deteriorates...Khusyali Mubarak !
Biryani, I am getting worried now....looks like your condition is deteriorating....you are unable to resist my charisma and you are thus still reading and responding .....hope there is no "fever"....nowadays the risk of "swine" flu is real....so please be careful....and also gobbling lots of "biryani" with goat meat is not good as it is now a proven fact that such meat transmits a disease known as "tricknosis"....so take some bed rest and have a good diet instead of gobbling unhealthy food....after all Khushali is around the corner huh?
Biryani, Now I can see the first signs of the flu !!!
Your own knowledge is limited....your language skills are mediocre....and so rather than having the honesty to concede and be truthful, you are trying to portray the opposite....do you think others in this forum are as lacking as you are? some of them are more educated and qualified than I am....why would they not understand me? or just because you don't or don't wish to, does this mean the rest must also toe the line?
You have shown a lamentable lack of knowledge both about Islam and Ismailism as a "madhab" or "Tariqa"....can there ever be a Madhab without the Deen itself being in place ? Ali is Islam and Islam is Ali ! There is no islam if there is no Ali ! Allah perfected Islam only after the Prophet declared Ali as the Imam and caliph of the Umma, regardless of what happened thereafter (as that is now part of our history).
You have not been able to tell us what is common amongst the Sufi groups including Ismailis? and what is it that yet distinguishes Ismailis from all others ?
In the Du'a daily (assuming you are an Ismaili and not pretending), which Sura of the Quran do we recite at the outset in the opening part? what is the name of this Sura? let me know and then I will take you a step further.....
Ismailism is distinctive and yet offers commonality....it may to many offer the flavour of all religions under the banner of the Prophet's Islam because the Quran is a Universal Message for all mankind - not just the muslimeen !...do you know about the richness of the diversity within the Ismailis?
So lets see how much you know? If I ask you questions on the quran, you will disappear....even my simple questions you have responded by way of "lamentations" instead of logical and qualitative responses....then you complain my submissions are "heavy"....at least learn your own madhab properly before you try to dialogue on the net.....
Your own knowledge is limited....your language skills are mediocre....and so rather than having the honesty to concede and be truthful, you are trying to portray the opposite....do you think others in this forum are as lacking as you are? some of them are more educated and qualified than I am....why would they not understand me? or just because you don't or don't wish to, does this mean the rest must also toe the line?
You have shown a lamentable lack of knowledge both about Islam and Ismailism as a "madhab" or "Tariqa"....can there ever be a Madhab without the Deen itself being in place ? Ali is Islam and Islam is Ali ! There is no islam if there is no Ali ! Allah perfected Islam only after the Prophet declared Ali as the Imam and caliph of the Umma, regardless of what happened thereafter (as that is now part of our history).
You have not been able to tell us what is common amongst the Sufi groups including Ismailis? and what is it that yet distinguishes Ismailis from all others ?
In the Du'a daily (assuming you are an Ismaili and not pretending), which Sura of the Quran do we recite at the outset in the opening part? what is the name of this Sura? let me know and then I will take you a step further.....
Ismailism is distinctive and yet offers commonality....it may to many offer the flavour of all religions under the banner of the Prophet's Islam because the Quran is a Universal Message for all mankind - not just the muslimeen !...do you know about the richness of the diversity within the Ismailis?
So lets see how much you know? If I ask you questions on the quran, you will disappear....even my simple questions you have responded by way of "lamentations" instead of logical and qualitative responses....then you complain my submissions are "heavy"....at least learn your own madhab properly before you try to dialogue on the net.....
Nannwalla, You know, you are just full of hot air and just roll on and on and on too much,…this, that,…flaahn, mistaan… and making links between things without justifying them…you’ll literally gonna give someone a julab flu…lol
man, stick to one relevant point in a post at a time...and please don’t insult me with childish questions or inquiries…
man, stick to one relevant point in a post at a time...and please don’t insult me with childish questions or inquiries…
Biryani,
How do my questions become "childish"? is it because you are unable to answer, they become irrelevant? What is common ground amongst all Sufi tariqas? it is a simple question ! and yet what is uncommon between Ismailis and other Sufis be they Sh'ias or Sunnis and why?...simple question but pertinent to comprehend the distinctions....hope your "flu" symptoms don't escalate....
How do my questions become "childish"? is it because you are unable to answer, they become irrelevant? What is common ground amongst all Sufi tariqas? it is a simple question ! and yet what is uncommon between Ismailis and other Sufis be they Sh'ias or Sunnis and why?...simple question but pertinent to comprehend the distinctions....hope your "flu" symptoms don't escalate....
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
You are contradicting yourself. You are saying Islam is Ali and Ali is Islam.. but then you say that Madhab cannot exist without Deen.. If our Madhab is Imami, then how can Deen (Islam) exist without Madhab (Imami)? You said it yourself, Islam is Ali, so then how can Islam exist without Mowlana Ali?znanwalla wrote:Biryani, Now I can see the first signs of the flu !!!
Your own knowledge is limited....your language skills are mediocre....and so rather than having the honesty to concede and be truthful, you are trying to portray the opposite....do you think others in this forum are as lacking as you are? some of them are more educated and qualified than I am....why would they not understand me? or just because you don't or don't wish to, does this mean the rest must also toe the line?
You have shown a lamentable lack of knowledge both about Islam and Ismailism as a "madhab" or "Tariqa"....can there ever be a Madhab without the Deen itself being in place ? Ali is Islam and Islam is Ali ! There is no islam if there is no Ali ! Allah perfected Islam only after the Prophet declared Ali as the Imam and caliph of the Umma, regardless of what happened thereafter (as that is now part of our history).
You have not been able to tell us what is common amongst the Sufi groups including Ismailis? and what is it that yet distinguishes Ismailis from all others ?
In the Du'a daily (assuming you are an Ismaili and not pretending), which Sura of the Quran do we recite at the outset in the opening part? what is the name of this Sura? let me know and then I will take you a step further.....
Ismailism is distinctive and yet offers commonality....it may to many offer the flavour of all religions under the banner of the Prophet's Islam because the Quran is a Universal Message for all mankind - not just the muslimeen !...do you know about the richness of the diversity within the Ismailis?
So lets see how much you know? If I ask you questions on the quran, you will disappear....even my simple questions you have responded by way of "lamentations" instead of logical and qualitative responses....then you complain my submissions are "heavy"....at least learn your own madhab properly before you try to dialogue on the net.....
Remember, that before Islam (as we refer to it today) was perfected, from the beginning of time there has been an Imam, and for centuries upon centuries there have been followers of the Imam.
If the Imam one day told us that we are not Muslim, then we are not Muslim and I will follow every word of the Imam. Of course, I do not believe that Hazir Imam would ever do this, however, I identify with being Imami before anything else.
YAYM,
I do not see any contradiction !
The Prophet brought Islam as a Deen? - There were no sects then - no divisions within the Umma...
However it's "perfection" occurred when Ali (AS) was declared by the Prophet as Imam and Caliph of the Umma, nearing the end of Naboowat, as per the Command of Allah, and at a place called Khum e Ghadir? What happened thereafter is a matter of history ?
The Prophet (SAW) began his mission under the command of "Iqra" and brought Islam to mankind ? It has since then continued with splits and divisions, and those who followed Ali and accepted him as their Amirul Momineen hold certain definitive beliefs...
I think we need to put certain things in a proper perspective rather than try and build a structure of "religion" (Deen) in accordance with our own conjectures or whims.
The noble Quran was revealed to the Prophet of Islam - the Prophet said....I am leaving behind me TWO things, my Book and my Progeny
The word Imam (pl. a’imma) is derived from amma, meaning to lead the way, precede, or to lead by example. Thus, the Imam means a model, an exemplar, a teacher, a guide or a path.
With the Prophet, the Khatim al-anbiya (seal of the prophets), the cycle of prophecy (da’irat an-nubuwwa) was closed, but God did not thenceforth leave His people without guidance on the way to Himself.
For the majority, the guide was the revealed Book.
For the others, the exoteric laws, though accepted, was not enough.
For these who became known as the Shi’ites, the guide through this world of divine wisdom (hikma ilahiyya) was the infallible Imam.
The closing of the prophetical cycle heralded the opening of another, i.e., the da’irat al-walaya.
When differentiation between these two precious things, is eliminated they become one with one another....for example when water is stripped of its watery form, it becomes an aerial form e.g steam and becomes one with the air and so there remains no differentiation between them...thus Islam is Ali, moving forward, and after the Prophethood ended and let us not get into "Marifa" at this point but just discuss the basics as we have four levels - not just one !
Allah says that HE has confined everything in the Manifest Imam ! So everything to me also means the Book ! So what was the sequence which unfolded is what we need to put in sequence...now here we are referring to the Revealed Imam after the Prophethood came to an end....otherwise Imamat is not a new phenomena and goes back in time to Prophet Abraham and Adam perhaps.
All that was introduced and upheld by the Holy Prophet during his rulership, does exist in its own proper place, true and tied to the truth and if anyone sees shortcomings then this is the result of imperfections in one's own vision ( I strictly mean the Prophet's religion - Islam).... all the constituent parts of the "existing" things within this Islam of the Holy Prophet brought as a "Mercy to mankind", are SIGNS and indications, testimonies and proofs of Allah and so they all are in agreement with each other, confirming the TRUTH of each other and most importantly POINTING to one another...and sequentially following one another as ordained....Truth follows Ali !!!
"WE shall show them OUR SIGNS in the horizons and in themselves until it is clear to them that is the TRUTH..." (41: 53)...
"(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).....so those with the rightful Imams will do what? the ayah is clear !..and so what did the Prophet do sequentially? revealed the Quran, established the Deen and the laws and then declared Ali (As) as the Imam and Caliph !...so where is the dispute?
The people of the religious Law it is the Book which they follow - but for us the Knowledge of this Law and the Quran comes effectively through and from the one who is Knowing (arif)...and the Inheritor ! The custodian ! The Guardian ! The Master of both the TWO weighty things !
I do not see any contradiction !
The Prophet brought Islam as a Deen? - There were no sects then - no divisions within the Umma...
However it's "perfection" occurred when Ali (AS) was declared by the Prophet as Imam and Caliph of the Umma, nearing the end of Naboowat, as per the Command of Allah, and at a place called Khum e Ghadir? What happened thereafter is a matter of history ?
The Prophet (SAW) began his mission under the command of "Iqra" and brought Islam to mankind ? It has since then continued with splits and divisions, and those who followed Ali and accepted him as their Amirul Momineen hold certain definitive beliefs...
I think we need to put certain things in a proper perspective rather than try and build a structure of "religion" (Deen) in accordance with our own conjectures or whims.
The noble Quran was revealed to the Prophet of Islam - the Prophet said....I am leaving behind me TWO things, my Book and my Progeny
The word Imam (pl. a’imma) is derived from amma, meaning to lead the way, precede, or to lead by example. Thus, the Imam means a model, an exemplar, a teacher, a guide or a path.
With the Prophet, the Khatim al-anbiya (seal of the prophets), the cycle of prophecy (da’irat an-nubuwwa) was closed, but God did not thenceforth leave His people without guidance on the way to Himself.
For the majority, the guide was the revealed Book.
For the others, the exoteric laws, though accepted, was not enough.
For these who became known as the Shi’ites, the guide through this world of divine wisdom (hikma ilahiyya) was the infallible Imam.
The closing of the prophetical cycle heralded the opening of another, i.e., the da’irat al-walaya.
When differentiation between these two precious things, is eliminated they become one with one another....for example when water is stripped of its watery form, it becomes an aerial form e.g steam and becomes one with the air and so there remains no differentiation between them...thus Islam is Ali, moving forward, and after the Prophethood ended and let us not get into "Marifa" at this point but just discuss the basics as we have four levels - not just one !
Allah says that HE has confined everything in the Manifest Imam ! So everything to me also means the Book ! So what was the sequence which unfolded is what we need to put in sequence...now here we are referring to the Revealed Imam after the Prophethood came to an end....otherwise Imamat is not a new phenomena and goes back in time to Prophet Abraham and Adam perhaps.
All that was introduced and upheld by the Holy Prophet during his rulership, does exist in its own proper place, true and tied to the truth and if anyone sees shortcomings then this is the result of imperfections in one's own vision ( I strictly mean the Prophet's religion - Islam).... all the constituent parts of the "existing" things within this Islam of the Holy Prophet brought as a "Mercy to mankind", are SIGNS and indications, testimonies and proofs of Allah and so they all are in agreement with each other, confirming the TRUTH of each other and most importantly POINTING to one another...and sequentially following one another as ordained....Truth follows Ali !!!
"WE shall show them OUR SIGNS in the horizons and in themselves until it is clear to them that is the TRUTH..." (41: 53)...
"(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).....so those with the rightful Imams will do what? the ayah is clear !..and so what did the Prophet do sequentially? revealed the Quran, established the Deen and the laws and then declared Ali (As) as the Imam and Caliph !...so where is the dispute?
The people of the religious Law it is the Book which they follow - but for us the Knowledge of this Law and the Quran comes effectively through and from the one who is Knowing (arif)...and the Inheritor ! The custodian ! The Guardian ! The Master of both the TWO weighty things !
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
Perhaps???znanwalla wrote:YAYM,
otherwise Imamat is not a new phenomena and goes back in time to Prophet Abraham and Adam perhaps. !
This is all I needed to read. It shows that you need to read more about our tariqah and about Imamat specifically.
Your post has no relevance whatsoever to illustrating that we are Muslim first, Ismaili second. If you do not have sufficient knowledge of Imamat, this dialogue is fruitless.
-
InquisitiveGirl
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 pm
Maybe this might help the discussion..
When I am asked what religion I belong to, my answer is ALWAYS "Muslim" regardless if I am talking to a Muslim, Christian, anything.
Just like we are human. A human is a human, regardless of the race he or she belongs to. Likewise, a muslim is a muslim regardless of which sect he or she belongs to.
Ismailism is a tariqa, not a religion. Islam is a religion. Get it?
I don't believe in distinguishing Ismailism from Islam... we are living and breathing Islam, through our perspective.
When I am asked what religion I belong to, my answer is ALWAYS "Muslim" regardless if I am talking to a Muslim, Christian, anything.
Just like we are human. A human is a human, regardless of the race he or she belongs to. Likewise, a muslim is a muslim regardless of which sect he or she belongs to.
Ismailism is a tariqa, not a religion. Islam is a religion. Get it?
I don't believe in distinguishing Ismailism from Islam... we are living and breathing Islam, through our perspective.
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
There are a number of fallacies in your post here. However, before getting into them, I would like to ask, why identify with our 'religion' before our 'tariqah'? I'm putting aside some the inherent assumptions that have been made.InquisitiveGirl wrote:Maybe this might help the discussion..
When I am asked what religion I belong to, my answer is ALWAYS "Muslim" regardless if I am talking to a Muslim, Christian, anything.
Just like we are human. A human is a human, regardless of the race he or she belongs to. Likewise, a muslim is a muslim regardless of which sect he or she belongs to.
Ismailism is a tariqa, not a religion. Islam is a religion. Get it?
I don't believe in distinguishing Ismailism from Islam... we are living and breathing Islam, through our perspective.
-
InquisitiveGirl
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 pm
YAYM,
"...Your post has no relevance whatsoever to illustrating that we are Muslim first, Ismaili second. If you do not have sufficient knowledge of Imamat, this dialogue is fruitless....."...You are entitled to your opinion Sir !
However it is just an empty rhetoric and it means nothing ! Neither of us knows everything ! but if you are so certain that you have sufficient knowledge about Islam; about the quran ; and about ismailis then I invite you to open up the debate....don't make felicitous statements which to me sound hollow and boastful...
"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you Imam for the mankind. Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said: My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124).
To the people of gradation, everything which was and which is and will be and which now exists in time and place, true and tied, is linked to this Reality and which is that there is no changing of the "Amr" of Allah...
HIS "Amr" reaches mankind regardless save that many people tend to take up TWO "religious attitudes"....many folks remain ignorant of this Reality and this Reality itself is NEVER subject to change, transformation, multiplicity or contradiction !
"Belief like any other moving object, follows the path of "least" resistance.."
For the followers of truth, truth dictates that the Imam must exist as "himself" in person that is to say in the "relative" form and the concept of relativity may be that the truth valid in one period of time may not be valid in another period of time or vice versa as Allah is NOT restricted in any manner to create or exercise HIS Divine acts or HIS majesty or beauty and so a man's own knowledge can be with the truth in one domain and then erroneous in another domain.
Man is confined to just the appearances of the material world but the Light of Allah is always apparent in the physical Realm as it is something inherent to the Creation.
Allah has chosen the descendants of Abraham and Imran above all people - a line of descendants one succeeding the other.
Truly God enjoineth Justice and Kindness....and exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed...( Sura al Nahl)......shows "ADL" ought to be a Pillar of faith !
A society that bases itself upon justice and rectitude will be prosperous, happy and stable and anyone else who bases itself upon elements contrary to such principles will find an unplesant fate in store for them....and this principle has been referred to in the Quran as "Sunnat Allah" or the "Way of God"
Islamic law categorizes what is obligatory (wajib); forbidden (haram; discouraged(makruh); recommended (mustahabb);indifference( Mubah) and so the fixed rules have to revolve around this law and not make everything rigid , obligatory or forbidden.
A good act without a good intent may not achieve desired results..
God does not guide the machinations of the treacherous nor does he allow the work of the vicious to prosper and the Prophet says.."May God curse those who preach good and do not practice it and who forbid others from doing wrong whilst they themselves indulge in wrong doing..."
How can such a person expect good from God when he has already been cursed by the prophet?
The Prophet says..." let any of you NOT appear before God with the proof of your relationship with me when others appear before God with their good deeds. I will not intercede for you unless you bring your good deeds with yourselves..."
Racial or geographical factors cannot be used in islam as the basis of any claim to superiority or the source of any pride.
Ethical values pertaining to the principles of humanity are rooted in the fitra..
Don't place a question mark where Allah has put a full stop ! We cannot change Allah's message - HIS message should change us !
Most people want to serve Allah but then they cannot do this in an "advisory capacity"
This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion" Quran 5:3
Several verses in the Quran speak about the Light of God and Rope of Imamat which is a continuous chain (Hablillah) since Hazrat Adam, through all the Prophets including, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and after him through the hereditary Imams.
Imamat is a perpetuality ! even if there are only two people left on this earth, there has to be an Imam present ....now tell me who lacks the knowledge?
64: 10 But those who reject Faith And treat Our Signs As falsehoods, they will be Companions of the Fire, To dwell therein for aye: And evil is that Goal.
9: 64 The Hypocrites are afraid Lest a Sura should be sent down About them showing them what Is (really passing) in their hearts. Say:"Mock ye! But verily Allah will bring to Light all That ye fear (should be revealed)."
"...Your post has no relevance whatsoever to illustrating that we are Muslim first, Ismaili second. If you do not have sufficient knowledge of Imamat, this dialogue is fruitless....."...You are entitled to your opinion Sir !
However it is just an empty rhetoric and it means nothing ! Neither of us knows everything ! but if you are so certain that you have sufficient knowledge about Islam; about the quran ; and about ismailis then I invite you to open up the debate....don't make felicitous statements which to me sound hollow and boastful...
"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you Imam for the mankind. Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said: My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124).
To the people of gradation, everything which was and which is and will be and which now exists in time and place, true and tied, is linked to this Reality and which is that there is no changing of the "Amr" of Allah...
HIS "Amr" reaches mankind regardless save that many people tend to take up TWO "religious attitudes"....many folks remain ignorant of this Reality and this Reality itself is NEVER subject to change, transformation, multiplicity or contradiction !
"Belief like any other moving object, follows the path of "least" resistance.."
For the followers of truth, truth dictates that the Imam must exist as "himself" in person that is to say in the "relative" form and the concept of relativity may be that the truth valid in one period of time may not be valid in another period of time or vice versa as Allah is NOT restricted in any manner to create or exercise HIS Divine acts or HIS majesty or beauty and so a man's own knowledge can be with the truth in one domain and then erroneous in another domain.
Man is confined to just the appearances of the material world but the Light of Allah is always apparent in the physical Realm as it is something inherent to the Creation.
Allah has chosen the descendants of Abraham and Imran above all people - a line of descendants one succeeding the other.
Truly God enjoineth Justice and Kindness....and exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed...( Sura al Nahl)......shows "ADL" ought to be a Pillar of faith !
A society that bases itself upon justice and rectitude will be prosperous, happy and stable and anyone else who bases itself upon elements contrary to such principles will find an unplesant fate in store for them....and this principle has been referred to in the Quran as "Sunnat Allah" or the "Way of God"
Islamic law categorizes what is obligatory (wajib); forbidden (haram; discouraged(makruh); recommended (mustahabb);indifference( Mubah) and so the fixed rules have to revolve around this law and not make everything rigid , obligatory or forbidden.
A good act without a good intent may not achieve desired results..
God does not guide the machinations of the treacherous nor does he allow the work of the vicious to prosper and the Prophet says.."May God curse those who preach good and do not practice it and who forbid others from doing wrong whilst they themselves indulge in wrong doing..."
How can such a person expect good from God when he has already been cursed by the prophet?
The Prophet says..." let any of you NOT appear before God with the proof of your relationship with me when others appear before God with their good deeds. I will not intercede for you unless you bring your good deeds with yourselves..."
Racial or geographical factors cannot be used in islam as the basis of any claim to superiority or the source of any pride.
Ethical values pertaining to the principles of humanity are rooted in the fitra..
Don't place a question mark where Allah has put a full stop ! We cannot change Allah's message - HIS message should change us !
Most people want to serve Allah but then they cannot do this in an "advisory capacity"
This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion" Quran 5:3
Several verses in the Quran speak about the Light of God and Rope of Imamat which is a continuous chain (Hablillah) since Hazrat Adam, through all the Prophets including, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and after him through the hereditary Imams.
Imamat is a perpetuality ! even if there are only two people left on this earth, there has to be an Imam present ....now tell me who lacks the knowledge?
64: 10 But those who reject Faith And treat Our Signs As falsehoods, they will be Companions of the Fire, To dwell therein for aye: And evil is that Goal.
9: 64 The Hypocrites are afraid Lest a Sura should be sent down About them showing them what Is (really passing) in their hearts. Say:"Mock ye! But verily Allah will bring to Light all That ye fear (should be revealed)."
I should not judge people individually or collectively and I really don’t want to either, but I can’t resist saying that some of us Ismailies have a “closed door” or with a “religious or spiritual classes” kinda mentality in regards to our Tariqah and Islam and religion in general.
Look at Hazir Imam’s life and see how plural and humble He is, encouraging solidarity, tolerance and welcomes the religious and social diversity relentlessly not just within Muslim Ummah but all around the world. If non-ismailies have questions or concerns about Ismailism, there is always a way to respond without giving the impression that we are spiritually superior to them just because what we are…
Look at Hazir Imam’s life and see how plural and humble He is, encouraging solidarity, tolerance and welcomes the religious and social diversity relentlessly not just within Muslim Ummah but all around the world. If non-ismailies have questions or concerns about Ismailism, there is always a way to respond without giving the impression that we are spiritually superior to them just because what we are…
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
You identify based on the preamble, fine. However, what came before Islam? Which Islam are you speaking of? Is it the Islam that was brought by Prophet Muhammad (SAWS)? If so, there is certainly a preamble to that. As I have said earlier, the Imam has existed in zaheri form for long before what you would call 'Islam' today was established. This is why I am Imami first. I identify first with the path that is the only one on Sirat al-Mustaqeem.InquisitiveGirl wrote:tariqa is a way of doing something.
the way I define tariqa, in our context, is a "way of practicing religion." Hence, a way of practicing Islam.
Since a preamble is required in order to define tariqa, that is why I identify religion first.
As the Prophet (SAWS) said in hadith, there will be 73 sects in Islam, 72 of which will be destined for hell fire. You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it.
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
Here again.. since Hazrat Adam? Yes, the Imam during Hazrat Adam was Imam Shish (Seth), but there were Imams well before that as well. Read Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis by Henry Corbin and you will understand Imamat better insha Allah.znanwalla wrote:YAYM,
Several verses in the Quran speak about the Light of God and Rope of Imamat which is a continuous chain (Hablillah) since Hazrat Adam, through all the Prophets including, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and after him through the hereditary Imams."
This is my point, Imamat has existed well before the perfection of Islam. This is the religion that I belong to. I am Imami first, my religion is based on farman bardari, nothing else.
I enjoy debating but I simply request that when you respond please stick to the point. 90% of your post is always irrelevant to the discussion, and I am not the first to point this out to you. You go on way too many tangents and you always appear confused.
YAYM,
Actually you are making irrelevant arguments without laying a proper foundation....you say SETH was an Imam...okay prove it and lay a groundwork for readers to know that there ever existed an Imam called SETH....simply making statements does not mean people can accept what you say as a gospel truth or can relate to it...so create a relativity first....Corbin's Gnosis is not a "fatwa" of Allah...it is also a viewpoint...or was he a god of some sort whom you follow ?
The invocation of the divine origins of the teachings and the perverse human psycology or recalcitrant and arrogant people is repeated many times in the quran....the degree to which you have invested in subjectivity shows only the vehemence of your own reaction to the present era, time and age and your attitude is preventing you from receiving the benefit of the clarifications of new revelations and conversely you are also unable to fully benefit from the inner content of the earlier revelations because of this "proprietorship' that you seem to show in haughtiness and arrogance.
Actually you are making irrelevant arguments without laying a proper foundation....you say SETH was an Imam...okay prove it and lay a groundwork for readers to know that there ever existed an Imam called SETH....simply making statements does not mean people can accept what you say as a gospel truth or can relate to it...so create a relativity first....Corbin's Gnosis is not a "fatwa" of Allah...it is also a viewpoint...or was he a god of some sort whom you follow ?
The invocation of the divine origins of the teachings and the perverse human psycology or recalcitrant and arrogant people is repeated many times in the quran....the degree to which you have invested in subjectivity shows only the vehemence of your own reaction to the present era, time and age and your attitude is preventing you from receiving the benefit of the clarifications of new revelations and conversely you are also unable to fully benefit from the inner content of the earlier revelations because of this "proprietorship' that you seem to show in haughtiness and arrogance.
-
YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
Thank you for the coherent post.znanwalla wrote:YAYM,
Actually you are making irrelevant arguments without laying a proper foundation....you say SETH was an Imam...okay prove it and lay a groundwork for readers to know that there ever existed an Imam called SETH....simply making statements does not mean people can accept what you say as a gospel truth or can relate to it...so create a relativity first....Corbin's Gnosis is not a "fatwa" of Allah...it is also a viewpoint...or was he a god of some sort whom you follow ?
The invocation of the divine origins of the teachings and the perverse human psycology or recalcitrant and arrogant people is repeated many times in the quran....the degree to which you have invested in subjectivity shows only the vehemence of your own reaction to the present era, time and age and your attitude is preventing you from receiving the benefit of the clarifications of new revelations and conversely you are also unable to fully benefit from the inner content of the earlier revelations because of this "proprietorship' that you seem to show in haughtiness and arrogance.
You're right that I mistakenly assumed that you would know this information, I apologize for that. The name of Imam Shish (Seth) can be found in our previous du'a. It can be easily verified. I hope that our previous du'a is sufficient proof? As I suggested earlier, some more reading would really help you understand Imamat.
Just because Henry Corbin is not "a god of some sort" does not mean that we ignore it. Remember, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has said that Ivanow (a prominent scholar) knows more than you Ismailis. At least listen to the Imam's Farmans, which if you have the Farman, will at least be in its true original form, in the right order, not fabricated/changed, and complete.
YAYM,
Seth is named in Genesis as the son of Adam, and he lived for 912 years. (See Gen. 4:25-5:8.) ..Ali (AS0 also calls him the son of Adam !
In Luke, Seth is an ancestor to Christ. ...
Simply making a reference that is not Universal but sectarian or communal may not suffice for all readers...
Additionally...The Holy Ginan dictates
ejee sat shabde shaastre chaaljo, to satgur sa(n)gat thaay
satgur ne radeh raakho munivaro, to prem-j paavo
maher karo..................................................49
Conduct yourselves according to the True Word and the
holy scriptures (which includes the current farmaans),
so that you may acquire the friendship of the True Guide.
O believers, keep the True Guide in your hearts,
So now who is the True Guide? SETH or Shah Karim Al-Husayni?
ejee aadam aad neeree(n)jan, nirgunn aape arup
asal amaaraa saamee tame, judaa paddiyaa thai rup
In the beginning of the beginning, there was He that cannot be
seen or described(or in the beginning if creation infinite, Adam
was with the unseen). ...So is there any need to provide your own descriptions which may simply be speculative when the PIR says not to do so?
If as you say the name appeared in the old Du'a, why was it then removed? did it appear in the list of Imams? does it appear in the present one now ? tie it up effectively !..... why can SETH not be a companion? or an "inspirational source"? or even an Angel or a guard ? explain as the Quran says...
" HE is the Knower of the Unseen and HE revealeth unto NONE HIS secret save unto every MESSENGER whom HE hath chosen and then HE made a GUARD to go before him and guard behind him, that HE may know that they have indeed conveyed the message of their Lord...He surroundeth all their doings and HE keepeth count of all things..." Sura al Jinn)
So was IVANOW or CORBIN Messengers of God? because Allah says that HE only revealed the secret of the unseen to HIS own Messengers?
What else did IVANOW tell you when he did his translation ? for example when he translated Pandatiya Jawa Marda what was the bottom line in this translation ? did he revolve around SETH and who SETH was and wasn't ? or did the translation say to us to "follow the present Guide"? - the Present Pir o Murshid ?
The practical model of the supreme bliss are first the Prophets and Imams.
Seth is named in Genesis as the son of Adam, and he lived for 912 years. (See Gen. 4:25-5:8.) ..Ali (AS0 also calls him the son of Adam !
In Luke, Seth is an ancestor to Christ. ...
Simply making a reference that is not Universal but sectarian or communal may not suffice for all readers...
Additionally...The Holy Ginan dictates
ejee sat shabde shaastre chaaljo, to satgur sa(n)gat thaay
satgur ne radeh raakho munivaro, to prem-j paavo
maher karo..................................................49
Conduct yourselves according to the True Word and the
holy scriptures (which includes the current farmaans),
so that you may acquire the friendship of the True Guide.
O believers, keep the True Guide in your hearts,
So now who is the True Guide? SETH or Shah Karim Al-Husayni?
ejee aadam aad neeree(n)jan, nirgunn aape arup
asal amaaraa saamee tame, judaa paddiyaa thai rup
In the beginning of the beginning, there was He that cannot be
seen or described(or in the beginning if creation infinite, Adam
was with the unseen). ...So is there any need to provide your own descriptions which may simply be speculative when the PIR says not to do so?
If as you say the name appeared in the old Du'a, why was it then removed? did it appear in the list of Imams? does it appear in the present one now ? tie it up effectively !..... why can SETH not be a companion? or an "inspirational source"? or even an Angel or a guard ? explain as the Quran says...
" HE is the Knower of the Unseen and HE revealeth unto NONE HIS secret save unto every MESSENGER whom HE hath chosen and then HE made a GUARD to go before him and guard behind him, that HE may know that they have indeed conveyed the message of their Lord...He surroundeth all their doings and HE keepeth count of all things..." Sura al Jinn)
So was IVANOW or CORBIN Messengers of God? because Allah says that HE only revealed the secret of the unseen to HIS own Messengers?
What else did IVANOW tell you when he did his translation ? for example when he translated Pandatiya Jawa Marda what was the bottom line in this translation ? did he revolve around SETH and who SETH was and wasn't ? or did the translation say to us to "follow the present Guide"? - the Present Pir o Murshid ?
The practical model of the supreme bliss are first the Prophets and Imams.