Sahabae Karam and their conspiracies

[arshad1988]

Dear Arshad1988

Your interpretation of the verse 4:59 about the authority of the Ulu'l-Amr is somewhat flawed. Please look at the verse again:

“O you who have faith! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and the holders of the [divine] authority among you (uli’l amr min kum). If you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for interpretation (tawil).”
- Holy Quran 4:59

Please note that the verse as TWO commands and THREE authority figures.

Command #1 = "Obey Allah"
Command #2 = "Obey the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr"

You must see that the command to obey the Messenger is the SAME as the command to obey the Ulu'l-Amr. God has used the same command "obey" for both of them.

This means that the authority of the Ulu'l-Amr is on par and at the same rank as the authority of the Messenger because the Qur'an issued the same command to obey both of them.

Now the authority of the Prophet, being directly vested in him by God Himself, is absolute and cannot be questioned nor disputed:

“The Prophet has a greater authority (awla) over the believers than their own souls/selves (anfusihim).”
- Holy Quran 33:6

And based on 4:59, the Ulu'l-Amr possess the same authority as the Messenger and therefore, the Ulu'l-Amr CANNOT BE DISPUTED.

Now, I am aware that you point to the last part of the verse: "If you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger" and you think this means that the Ulu'l-Amr can be questioned.

But this interpretation is inaccurate because:

1. The only thing that the people can differ on (since they cannot differ against the Ulu'l-Amr's commands) is the IDENTITY of the Ulu'l-Amr. For this, they must seek the guidance of God and His Messenger. The hadiths of the Prophet recorded in BOTH Sunni and Shi'a books indicate that Imam 'Ali was the Ulu'l-Amr at the time of the Prophet.

2. You read this verse and then conclude that the instructions of the Ulu'l-Amr, being the Imam, must be compared to the Qur'an. However, 4:59 says "refer to God and the Messenger". The Qur'an is NOT identical with God nor is it identical with the Messenger himself, thus, referring to the Qur'an alone is insufficient.

3. If you continue reading in Surah 4, some verses talk about referring disagreements and they state:

“If they had only REFERRED it to the Messenger and the ULI'L-AMR among them, then those among them who can derive knowledge would have known it.”
- Holy Quran 4:83

Therefore, any disagreements within the community of believers must be referred to the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr and after the Messenger, the Ulu'l-Amr alone fulfill this verse because only they have the same level of authority as the Messenger himself.

Dear kandani,

There is another angle of looking at the verse. Let us look at the verse again.

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.


Let us hypothetically insert "A," "B," and "C," for the three authorities mentioned in the above verse

59. O ye who believe! Obey A, and obey B, and C. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to A and B, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Now, if I were to say Obey "A" and obey "B," and "C", and then say if you were to dispute among yourselves, refer it back to "A" and "B", it does not make any sense if we are using your logic. The verse already explicitly said to obey and Allah and the Apostle, what need is there to repeat the same thing again? What is there to dispute with then if all three are on the same boat?

It is if "C" is not in conjunction with "A" and "B" that "C" is not to be followed.

The verse you quoted:

“If they had only REFERRED it to the Messenger and the ULI'L-AMR among them, then those among them who can derive knowledge would have known it.”
- Holy Quran 4:83

The above verse implies that the Messenger and the Uli'l-amr are on the same page. Of course, if the Uli'l-amr are in conjunction with the Messenger through obeying and following what was revealed to him from Allah, then the Uli'l-amr are to be followed.

Also of importance is that the verese 4:59 says "...Obey Allah, Obey the Messenger, and those vested with authority amongst you..."

The verse did not say "and obey those vested with authority". The emphasis was not put on the latter form of authority. Hence, it is without question to obey Allah and His Apostle, simply because of this emphasis. Also, if the ulil-amr were of the same rank as the Messenger, then Allah would have said "refer it back to Allah, the Messenger, and those vested with authority".

Now the next thing you mentioned is that in the verse, the question of what will be disputed is referring to who the ulil-amr is. I don't think this makes sense because why would Allah tell us to obey the ulil-amr when He says that we will dispute about who they are? This also goes against the notion of the Qur'an being a form of guidance, especially since this does not seem like the allegorical verses, as it is quite straightforward and a direct command (i.e. "do this" / "don't do that"). Also, the verse says ulil-amr "minkum" ("amongst you") implying that it is known who the ulil-amr are. Hence, my argument for interpreting the verse as above. However, this is only my understanding of it.

[AmarS]

Brother Shiraz Virani, Thank you for providing the link.

In Sura II Allah S.W.T. says “God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes, is a veil; Great is the penalty they incur.”

The link you provided is going to make no difference to the people to whom Allah S.W.T. refers in the above ayah because Allah S.W.T. has taken away their senses. They were born to be Jahaliyas even though they pretend to have knowledge and use sophisticated language and hyperboles.

Allah S.W.T. says in the Qur’an (referring to these people):

The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of )Mosaic Law, But who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (But understands them not).
Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of God and God guides not people who do wrong.




In short these are the people up against us! They have the audacity to challenge our Imam when their own Imams are in hiding and they have no proof whether their Imam is truly in hiding or it is just a ruse. Every generation has faced them. Ismailism has survived and prospered because of their Imams!

Others may be in the majority, in billions, but their brothers are languishing in refugee camps for the past 64 years. When Ismailis face refugee camps, Imam steps in and lifts them and people of other faiths, up to safe haven. We saw that in Congo, we saw that in Uganda, we saw that in Afghanistan and God forbid it happens again anywhere in the world, Inshallah, Imam will step in.


This is called Divine intervention No person on this earth has that capacity.

[AmarS]

Binom says:

There needs to be an authoritative basis for it, but that authority need not be your imam.

It may “need not be” for you. For Ismailis it is THE IMAM. If you believe that there is another authoritative basis, please name it.

Binom:

: In the case of the first question, I asked you to prove to me, without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), that Imamat, as understood in Ismailism, has always existed

Yes, it has always existed. We do not have to prove to anybody anything because we are seeing here that a lot has been presented to you but you seem to be rejecting everything.

Now, if you have proof that our Imam’s Imamat is wrong, then why not provide proof, and show us who the real Imam is because on the basis of Shia doctrine Imam has to be on earth. He has to be visible, not in hiding, because nobody can prove whether there is an Imam in hiding or not. Imam in hiding cannot guide his people, nor can he protect them. He cannot help them. What good is he?

And provide us the proof that he is in hiding. And then tell us what he is doing for you.


Binom writes:

Those universal beliefs do not belong to any one particular interpretation by their very nature, i.e. they are universal

A lot of Ismaili philosophy and doctrine is based on universal interpretation, their doctrine of Ta’lim, Qur’an, ahadith etc.. However, all those subscribing to the universal interpretation and Ta‘lim, and accepting the fact that Imam should be present, do not have an Imam, except the Ismailis. The rest have their Imams in hiding and there is no proof whether they are alive or dead. And others are left holding the heavy load of universal interpretation, period. No Imam, no Teacher, no Guide, just ignorant Mullahs and Ayatollahs!



Again and Again, brother Binom you have said that Sunnis and Ithana'Asheris believe this and that as though your beliefs are the same and Ismailis are the deviants. You know this is not true. You know that Sunnis and Ithanas hate each other. Every Mohorram Sunnis burn Ithnas in their Masjids in Pakistan, and in Iraq, Sunnis kill the Twelvers going for Pilgrimage to Najaf and Kerbala. Ithna'Asheris don't take this lying down. They retaliate.



There is no unanimity between the two of you. There is only enmity, period. You don’t share beliefs!


Ithnas,like the rest of the Shias believe there are Suras missing from the Qur’an. They also believe that references to Hazarat Ali S.A.W. in the Qur'an have been removed. In particular Ithnas believe Suras Nurain, Wilaya, etc. are missing from the Qur'an Sunnis don't believe this.


I am not here to put down Ithnas. I am just pointing out something that you don’t think we know. We know a lot more than you think but for the sake of unity, which our Imam desires within the Ummah we restrain ourselves.



Binom writes:

The first sentence is what I’m really asking you to prove without reference to the Qur’an or hadith as that is what is a particularly Ismaili doctrine, provided, if by ‘the Imam’ at the beginning of the sentence it means the Imam as Ismailis understand it since other traditions differ in their idea of it. How are you going to do this? If, by the Imam it refers to a universal concept of a guide, then the doctrine is not so Ismaili anymore. I can take it to refer to the Qur’an, or the Prophet (saw) or the Imam(s) of the Twelver Shi’ites or the Sufi shaykh, etc.

Other traditions can take it to refer to anything they please, Ismailis believe that their Imam is THE Imam not just an imam. He is THE Manifest Imam and Manifest Light as referred to in the Qur'an. He is the direct descendant of Prophet S.A.W. through his daughter and Hazarat Ali. There is nobody on this earth other than our Imam who can claim this. It is irrelevant to us whether you or other traditions believe the same as we do. We have no problems with what you believe.

Just as Kazi Noman‘s father, Al-Tusi, Nasir Khusraw, Hasan bin Sabah, all former twelvers did bayah of the Ismaili Imam and submitted themselves to his authority over their bodies and soul, have we, the present day Ismailis submitted to our Imam everything. We know he is Our Imam because he works day and night for our betterment, and the betterment of the Ummah and Allah’s creatures. His immense love for us and Allah's creatures and creation is proof for us that he is the True Imam. There is no other person on this earth who does this.

This is not blind faith. Blind faith is believing in somebody who has gone into hiding for the past 900 years and believing he will emerge to save them. Their communities are begging him (blindly????) to emerge but he is nowhere to be seen.

On the other hand Our Imam takes care of not only the Ismailis but the people of the world. He travels to the most dangerous parts of the world without fear for his life. All he cares is that people should live in peace. His aim is to eradicate poverty and ignorance. He wants people of all ages to be healthy.

Is there anyone out there who can claim this for their Imam?

[From_Alamut]

W. Ivanow mention in his book "Brief Survy of the Evolution of Ismailism", 'Imam Jafar's original successor was Ismail.

I would like to quote some briefest of W. Ivanow underground research works based on Twelvers....

Page 6, "...........later on the death of Imam Jafar the Abbasids and the majority of the Sha`a community recognized his son Musa as his successor, Musa and his descendants were mostly living as honorable prisoners of state at the court of the Abbasid Caliphs. They, however, apparently were not deprived of the facility of receiving deputations from their followers and corresponding with them. The fourth after Musa died childless in 260/874, but his relatives to prevent the sequestration of his property by the state, invented a story of a posthumous male child being born to him. The mysterious baby, however, as they said, became concealed in a cellar in Samarra, a town North of Baghdad, where he is supposed to be still living to come in glory as the promised Mahdi on the Judgment Day......."

Page 8, "................The world,- according to that doctrine-can never remain without an Imam as otherwise it will instantly collapse. If an Imam dies without a son as his successor, it can only mean that not only he personally, but the whole line of his ancestors were not the true Imams. Thus the discontinuation of the line of Twelvers proved that at least the last several of them were not genuine. This being so, one obviously had to look back to the occasion on which a disputed on the succession had taken place........."

Reference: BOOK "Brief Survery of the Evolution of Ismailsm" By: W.Ivanow----1952

[znanwalla]

Arshad,

Keep on looking at your "angles"....I don't think you are seeking to understand....what you are trying to do is simply rave and rant ...did you understand what Khandani is actually saying? which "madrassa" have you gone to? he hasn't gone to any !

So then let me offer a third angle...

"(Remember) the day (hereafter) when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader-witness) then, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their books and they shall not be dealt with (even) a shred unjustly" (17:71).

So what is Allah saying here? HE will summon everyone through their Imam...right? do you see the word THEN ? what does it mean? "then whosoever is given his book in his RIGHT hand..." (not otherwise) - now you were not even given the Book ! You created your own interpolations and are calling it Quran...so with Khandani and KM they have BOTH ! You have neither ! and so what are you arguing about ? The Book was NEVER given to your ancestors....they just made their own up...Allah is clear...I hope you are not suffering from trichnosis.....it comes from gobbling too much goats and chickens.....be careful otherwise the brains tend tobecome dysfunctional...

We have a tradition from Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, who relates that the verse: “O ye! Who believe, obey God and obey the Apostle and those among you invested with authority” (4:59) was revealed, he asked the Prophet, “We know God and His Prophet, but who are these persons invested with authority?” The Prophet said, “Ali and his descendants are invested with authority.”

“And had there not been God averting some people’s (doom) by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which God’s name is much remembered” (22:40).

This verse makes it clear that there always exists in this world an infallible one through whose inherent auspiciousness this world exists. This infallible one is no other than the Prophet’s progeny...so it can't be your mullah !

The Quran says, “And if when they had done injustice to themselves, they had but come to you and asked God’s forgiveness, and the Prophet had (also) asked forgiveness for them. Surely, they would have found God Forgiving, Merciful.” (4:64).

It indicates that when God commanded the people to have recourse to the Prophet for the forgiveness of their sins and ask for forgiveness through him, it also establishes the necessity of this same means ,in the world for ever? otherwise God would be unjust to mankind and HE is not !

The ever-presence of an Imam is imperative. The Quranic verse, “If you should quarrel about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger” (4:59), necessitates the presence of an Imam physically after the Prophet, so that the believers may refer to him what they have quarrelled about..... Shaikh al-Mufid (d. 413/1022) writes in Awa’il al-maqalat (Tabriz, 1951, p. 35) that, “The Imams take the place of the prophets in enforcing judgments, seeing to the execution of the legal penalties, safeguarding the law and educating mankind.”

Ibn Arabi quotes the Prophet as saying in Tafsir al-Koran al-Karim (1:30) that, "Every man shall be brought together on the day of judgment with what he loves. If a man loves a stone, he shall be gathered together with it." Naturally, one who loves Imam, he will be with the Imam in last day....so pal, you keep the pebbles and enjoy....we will keep the Imam !

[kandani]

59. O ye who believe! Obey A, and obey B, and C. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to A and B, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Now, if I were to say Obey "A" and obey "B," and "C", and then say if you were to dispute among yourselves, refer it back to "A" and "B", it does not make any sense if we are using your logic. The verse already explicitly said to obey and Allah and the Apostle, what need is there to repeat the same thing again? What is there to dispute with then if all three are on the same boat?

It is if "C" is not in conjunction with "A" and "B" that "C" is not to be followed.

Arshad, please go and re-read what i posted.

Your logic in interpreting the verse makes no sense.

The fact of the matter is that the Quran has used the same command for obedience to the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr. You are opposing this interpretation by simply speculating on what the verse would have read - and in doing so you are actually mocking the Quran.

Also, after B (prophet) has departed, you simply cannot refer anything to him, and unless you have the power to speak to Allah, you cannot refer anything to A. The Ulu'l-Amr in accorance with the later verse are the only party that remains to whom you can refer your disputes.

The above verse implies that the Messenger and the Uli'l-amr are on the same page. Of course, if the Uli'l-amr are in conjunction with the Messenger through obeying and following what was revealed to him from Allah, then the Uli'l-amr are to be followed.

Your statement here basically says that it is the individual, in this case YOU, who gets to judge the Ulu'l-Amr when the Quran says you must obey the Ulu'l-Amr and refer back disputes to them.

But who is qualified to judge whether the Ulu'l-Amr are truly following what the Prophet and God will? Who is that person? It surely cannot be a fallible Muslim like yourself.

If you dispute the Ulu'l-Amr, then you have disobeyed the first part of verse 4:59 and 4:63 and contradicted the verse itself. If you are okay with that, then go ahead.

Now the next thing you mentioned is that in the verse, the question of what will be disputed is referring to who the ulil-amr is. I don't think this makes sense because why would Allah tell us to obey the ulil-amr when He says that we will dispute about who they are?

Actually it makes perfect sense. The identity of the Ulu'l-Amr becomes paramount because the verse gives them the same authority as the Messenger. Remember - one command is used for both the Prophet and Ulu'l-Amr. It says you must obey BOTH of them in one statement. Think about this.

This also goes against the notion of the Qur'an being a form of guidance, especially since this does not seem like the allegorical verses, as it is quite straightforward and a direct command (i.e. "do this" / "don't do that"). Also, the verse says ulil-amr "minkum" ("amongst you") implying that it is known who the ulil-amr are.

Firstly, the Quran is not a standalone source of guidance. During the time of the Prophet, nobody referred to the Quran and interpreted it for themselves. Everything depended on the instructions of the Prophet who was the sole authority and intepreter of the Qur'an. The Qur'an even says about the Prophet:

“And We have sent down unto you [Muhammad] the Reminder; that you may explain to men what is sent down for them, and that they may reflect.”
- Holy Quran 16:44

Verily, you [Muhammad] guide to the Straight Path.”
- Holy Quran 45:25

Therefore, the system of guidance at the time of the Prophet was that the community followed the authority of a single individual and nobody interpreted the Qur'an for themselves.

The Isma'ili Faith is the only community which has preserved this exact same system of guidance based on the prophetic model. And this system never changes. As the Qur'an says:

“It is the custom of Allah which has taken course aforetime; and you will never find any change in the custom (sunnat) of Allah.” (48:22).

“Allah’s custom is that which has continued in His servants, and the disbelievers are ruined” - Holy Quran 40:85

Secondly, the Prophet indicated that Imam 'Ali was the Ulu'l-Amr on several occasions - so yes the people knew who the Ulu'l-Amr was.
[/quote]

[pardesi]

My intent was not to get into debating on what to follow after the Qur'an, for example quoting hadiths, ulema which have differing views, etc, as I said that the Qur'an is flawless and the latter sources have some human intervention, as I have stated before.

Right now, I would like you read the Qur'an, and tell me what you find lacking in it for guidance. Allah says that it is clear, easy to understand and a guidance for mankind. I would like you to give me specific examples of ayahs which you would have trouble implementing in your everyday life. If you cannot quote many, it proves that the clear verses are the foundation of the Book (as stated by Allah Himself) which most of mankind can implement into their everyday lives. This does not by any means say that you do not need any help in interpreting the allegorical verses, rather it serves to point out that the Qur'an can be, and is guidance for all individuals.

Dear Arshad, I had prepared this response couple of days ago. Unfortunately I was not able to post it for some reason. I noticed that during the last couple of days this thread has moved on and my response at this juncture may sound like going back in time but I wanted to post it anyway. Here we go.

Let me ask you this Arshad:

I don’t understand what you are getting at. I can give you hundreds of ayahs that can not be properly implemented in ones daily life. You will probably say I am wrong because you are able to do that for yourself, or that those ayahs are ambiguous and therefore outside the scope of your question.

How do YOU apply what you read in Quran in your everday life? Assuming that you understand everything that you read in Quran without any help, how do you know that your understanding is correct? And what you understand from Quran for yourself, is it necessary that it should apply to another person just the same? So then this becomes your interpretation. If Quran is simple and easy to understand then why the ulema who translate the Quran differ on meanings of individual words in almost every ayat of Quran. I have noticed you mostly quote Abdullah Yusufali’s translation, although in one post you quoted Pickthal’s translation. What I understand from it is that you are only using the translation of verses that you agree with or that which reinforces your stand thus disagreeing with and disregarding others at the same time. Good, it is your prerogative to follow your heart’s desires.

You had mentioned earlier in the debate that you follow the teachings of Ahl-e-Bayt and I asked you how you do that to which you have not responded. This contradicts what you have said here before that one need not follow any school of thought and deduce everything from Quran and sunnah which is clear and easy to understand. Ok, granted that you are a person of higher level of understanding and are able to grasp pretty much everything that Quran says, how are people (like me for instance who are not well versed with Quran’s language) to understand it. Can we also assume that what we get from it is also the truth as we understand it?

Lets us look at it another way. Here in the US you can finish your high school at a private or public school the traditional way - you know like going to school every day and taking tests every week, then the interims and then finals for the semester and so on and earn a HS diploma and hope to go on to a good college. You can also home school yourself and get a GED and hope to go to a community college (not in all cases) and work hard to get into a good college. Now what is the difference between the two? They both get a diploma but if you look at statistics, a vast majority of high schoolers go on to a four year college and a good percentage finishes college education. Now have you looked at the stats for the GED achievers? Why the difference?

Your logic of reading Quran and learning everything on your own presents one problem; one might not find Quran lacking anything, and there is no shortage of wisdom in Quran either, but you will only go as far as your intellectual capacity takes you. If all muslims between the age of 16-60 took an IQ test, what would the scores be. Do you agree that majority will be at the bottom of the barrel? Why are you bent upon making the situation hopeless for them. I used the IQ example but you may replace it with a simple aptitude test for Quranic understanding. The Talibans are a perfect example of what might happen if you try to understand Quran on your own and disregard the Imams, be they Shia Imams from the progeny of Mohammad (pbuh) or simply the Imams of Ijtehad.

If I read the Quran, like you asked, (and I actually do) I will come across a lot of stories and events that have happened in the past, both good and bad and will learn how Allah has dealt with those situations. There is a story of creation, mention of Adam and his descendants, etc. There are also stories of previous Prophets and the difficulties they faced and how Allah divinely helped some and let others to suffer for a time. It would be difficult for me to apply those to my daily life, other than learning about it. Then there are ahkamaat that are important like how to live your life, what is allowed, what is not allowed, to be honest, pray, pay religious dues, etc. which the Prophet further explained in his lifetime. These I have to reflect upon according to my capacity and apply to myself to the best of my ability. The beauty of Allah’s revelations in relation to guidance is that they are timeless and can be effectively applied even during changing times and it is the belief of Shias that Ahl-e-Bayt were appointed Ulil Amr for this very reason; to guide according to changing times. Lastly I will come across some verses that I will not be able to understand at all. I have a choice to read the guess work of some ulema or follow the guidance of my Imam whom Allah has charged with authority to lead and guide.

[znanwalla]

They are chasing their tails....I did say so that they are unable to understand your articulation...they went to the madrassa of the elite and you guys haven't !!

ISLAM AND ITS DIVISIONS

Islam which started with the revelation of the truth to prophet SAW, contains in its doctrine a new existential form.

It is a new doctrine of life, a new way to live according to which millions of people called Muslims conform.

Prophet Muhammad, during his life, was the spiritual leader of the new revealed religion and at the same time the secular leader of the new state created as the result of conversion of millions of people to Islam, formulating an Islamic state which by definition was a religious community.

Muslims in the Islamic state were living spiritually according to what Prophet Muhammad ordered them to do, and socially solved their problems by seeking his advice and guidance over the controversial issues. ...Your texts had , as yet, not come into play ...

Their way of life was simply based on brotherhood and equality which is lacking today !

The prime virtue then was the absolute obedience and submission to the word of God, which was the true meaning of Islam....today it is barking "kufr Kufr...Sh'ia Sh'ia...Amerika Amerika.."

The life of the prophet himself, spiritually and socially, gave a perfect example and exact archetype for Muslims to follow

The Sunna:

After the death of prophet Muhammad, Muslims, having at once lost their spiritual and secular leader fell into chaos, confusion and division.

The majority of Muslims claimed that the spiritual leadership of prophet Muhammad came to an end with his death an was not and could not be handed over to anyone.

Therefore it was left to Muslims to choose his successor by the majority of votes....but only a handful of people gathered at Saqifa did the choosing.

This group of Muslims came to be known as Sunnites. They declared that the authority of leader, chosen by the "majority" of people, extended only to secular matters. He had no spiritual authority...if you check history you will find evidence that the caliphs, despite differences, used to refer decisions on religious issues to Hazrat Ali.

They (Sunnis) later on, underwent many divisions of which four are the most predominant and are called (Al-Mazahebul Arba'h). They are : Hanafi, Shafi'y Maliki and Hanbali, Although the basic concepts are the same in all these four sects, yet they differ greatly from one another in their interpretation of the Glorious "Qura'n" (Holy book) and the Hadith Sharif (Holy Tradition)...

Al-Baqir said: There is absolutely no one from the people that can say he has the entirety of the Qur’an as it was revealed by Allah except a liar; the one only who possesses it all and has preserved it as it was revealed by Allah was Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the Imams after him. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa’ir 4:193

From Imam Al-Baqir, on verse 2:90: Terrible is what they have purchased for themselves, that they would jealously disbelieve in what Allah has sent down about Ali. (Al-‘Ayyashi Tafsir 1:50)

People like binom, arshad and orchestra live in delusion and hope to extinguish the Light of Allah, but Allah will complete His Light even if the disbelievers are averse.

A man asked a question to Abu Ja’far [al-Baqir], to which he said: No one can claim to have all of the Qur’an, including its manifest aspect and
hidden aspects, except the inheritors [the ‘awsiya, the Imams]. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa’ir 4:193

Al-Baqir said: I do not see anybody in this ummah who has all possession of all of the Qur’an except the inheritors. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa’ir 4:193

This is because they have renounced the Qur’an, destroyed the traditions, and annihilated the laws.(Kulayni Al-Kafi 2:600)

Many of the Sh'ias too are in the same situation....so enjoy splashing the water ! or face the truth, as it stands !

[pardesi]

There is another angle of looking at the verse. Let us look at the verse again.

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.


Let us hypothetically insert "A," "B," and "C," for the three authorities mentioned in the above verse

59. O ye who believe! Obey A, and obey B, and C. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to A and B, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Now, if I were to say Obey "A" and obey "B," and "C", and then say if you were to dispute among yourselves, refer it back to "A" and "B", it does not make any sense if we are using your logic. The verse already explicitly said to obey and Allah and the Apostle, what need is there to repeat the same thing again? What is there to dispute with then if all three are on the same boat?

It is if "C" is not in conjunction with "A" and "B" that "C" is not to be followed.

A,B & C are three authorities mentioned here. Although C has been prepped for appointment (Ayat of tathir) an official announcement has not been made as to when he will take over the duties since B is still in the office. You are confused as to the meaning of "Ulil Amr from amongst you" in the first sentence and "yourselves" in the second sentence. In "Ulil Amr minkum" two types of people are mentioned; one is the chosen (Ulil Amr) the successor, and the other "minkum" which refers to "YOU, the people" who the Ulil Amr is amongst. So then "yourselves" in the second sentence which reads "If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle" means bring your differences that you may have amongst "yourselves" to Allah and His Apostle and when the Apostle is no more refer it to his successor, the Ulil Amr. You are twisting the simple and clear meanings of the verses, which you yourself said were easy to understand, to win a debate! Now if you take Ulil Amr out of this equation, how do you refer your differences to Allah and the Apostle? Remember the verse says "refer it to Allah and His Apostle" and not "Allah or His Apostle". So How do you refer it to Allah in the absence of His Apostle? Referring your differences to the Book alone will be going against Allah's command. We Shias refer it to Allah and His Apostle and since the Apostle is no longer with us, we refer it to Allah(Book) and the Ulil Amr. Remember the Prophet once said that Quran and his Ahl-e-Bayt will never separate from each other.

And they say Ismailis do not read and understand and follow Quran!

See what happens when you try to interpret Quran on your own without an absolute authority. The Quran by itself is not sufficient without the Natiq. That "C" that you mentioned in your post can and will never be "not in conjunction" with A & B as in the absence of B, A (Book) and C (Ulil Amr) are one and the same as left behind by B.

Peace.

[kandani]

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

The Arabic transliteration of this verse reads:

"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee alamri minkum fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin faruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntum tuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu taweelan"

Now, Arshad translates the latter part as "And if ye differ in anything amongst yourselves".

But where is the Arabic word for "yourselves" in the actual verse?

The words "fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin" mean "Then if you differ in any thing". There is no "yourselves" in this part of the verse.

It seems that Arshad and others have inserted the word "yourselves" in the second part of the verse in order to create a false argument that the Ulu'l-Amr who are "min kum" (among you) can be disputed. But clearly this is not the case at all.

Secondly, Arshad, your proposed reading of the verse such as:

"Obey A, obey B, and C..." is totally botched up as you simply put a comma before the Ulu'l-Amr to take away emphasis from them when the Arabic revelation does not have any commas!

The proper reading is: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr." Thus the Messenger and Ulu'l-Amr are mentioned in the single statement.

If you obey the Messenger but disobey the Ulu'l-Amr you have not fulfilled the entire second (obey) command in this verse.

[znanwalla]

Paredesi/Khandani...Good answers ! I agree with your line of argument.

It is a COMBINATION ! It is protocol clearly established of WE/US/OURS !

There isn't any UNMEDIATED relationship...obedience to the Prophet is Obedience to Allah ! Obedience to the Imam e Zamana is obedience to the Prophet and then only to Allah Himself as this then is the path of Sirat through those on whom Allah has bestowed HIS favours....

Majority of the muslims betrayed the Prophet and have abandoned the wise ones including many of the Sh'ias today and in absence of their own Imams, they are neither here nor there, unfortunately.....

The prayer commanded by Allah to mankind "...Guide us to the Right path....the path of THOSE upon whom THOU has bestowed Favours..." becomes abundantly clear now and so the barks of "Kufr Kufr" by the ignorants is just empty rhetoric as Allah Himself has established HIS own protocol in so far as Governance of the created order goes...it is a variable of TAWHID and frankly all the other dicks and imposters are NOT part of this Allah approved contingency given to mankind....

Now overtime one may find many of them trying to denigrate the Ismaili Imamat...how can they otherwise maintain or uphold their own forgeries and "uloo" and kufr?

"God says in verse (9:119): "O you who believe! Fear God and be with those who are truthful (sadiqin).

Let us study this verse very carefully: On one side are all those who believe and on the other, are the truthful ones who are the Imams of the progeny of the Prophet, as Imam Jafar as-Sadiq says: "We are the truthful ones".

So at least a Sh'ia should follow what their Imam is saying and not follow mullas instead....because conversely what is the opposite of truth? and yet people prefer to follow conjectures and half truths and then act coy !

In such cases, the Holy Qur'an commands that the people of faith should fear God and follow the truthful ones (i.e., the Holy Imams) and be with them in knowledge and good deeds." (Source: Manifestations of Wisdom, p. 32). ...so who then are the people without faith? It is so logical and then they have the audacity to come and ask silly questions and offer wayward interpretations made by their mullahs? How naive ?

[znanwalla]

by Muslim First on Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:56 am
by Biradar on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:10 pm

Those who think that the Bohras believe the "real quran is with the imam" should produce proof for this.


Just like ismailis their answer will be, "Nobody will accept it". So the saga of "Shia Phantom Qur'an " will go on.
******************************************************
MF,


Why don't you ask this same question or make the same statement here... so we can help you enjoy the "saga" ....why boast in front of those whose Imams are hidden for 1100 plus years...ask us or don't make statements about us elsewhere where we aren't there to answer you...

[shiraz.virani]

Or are they jealous of mankind because of that which Allah of His bounty hath bestowed upon them? For We bestowed upon the House of Abraham (‘ala ibrahima) the Book (al-kitaba) and the Wisdom (alhikmata), and We bestowed on them a Mighty Kingdom. - Holy Quran 4:54


“As for Me, this is My covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.” - Holy Bible, Genesis 17:7



Verily, God did choose Adam and Noah, the progeny (‘al) of Abraham, and the progeny (‘al) of Imran above all the worlds (alamin), descendants (dhurriyyah), one from the other: And God heareth and knoweth all things. - Holy Quran

The historical identity of Imran – last name in the above verse – is ambiguous and has been subject to different interpretations – the most common being that Imran refers to the father of Musa or the father of Maryam (Virgin Mary) as both are mentioned within the Qur’an. The Shi‘a and particularly Isma‘ili interpretations state that the name Imran in the above verse refers to the father of Imam ‘Ali, whose popular name or kunya was Abu Talib whereas his proper name was, in fact, Imran. In this sense, the Shi‘a understand the words ‘ale Imran (Progeny of Imran) in the verse to be the hereditary Shi‘a Imams who are the children (‘al) of Abu Talib (Imran).


“Know that this Imamate is a reality [which] will never cease, change or be altered. It will continue forever to be transmitted through the progeny of our lords (mawalina). It will never leave them, whether in form, meaning or reality.”- Imam Hasan ‘ala dhikrihi al-salaam,

(quoted in Nasir al-Din Tusi,Rawda-yi Taslim transl. S.J. Badakhchani, The
Paradise of Submission, p. 122)


“Since my grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the Nur - a word which means ‘The Light’.” - Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV

(Sunday Times Weekly Review - Interview, Dec 12, 1965)


“Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the Nur - a word which means ‘The Light’. The Nur has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But my work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life.”
Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(Sunday Times Weekly Review - Interview, Dec 12, 1965)


Al-Qadi al-Nu’man was among those who had precedence in serving the Imam al-Mahdi bi’llah during the later part of his caliphate. He was also the beneficiary of the favours of al-Qa’im bi-Amr Allah as were others. Then Imam al-Mahdi bi’llah disclosed to him the distinction of his grandson Imam al-Mansur bi’llah who was the third of the Imams of the [period of] manifestation. He (al-Nu’man) said: ‘O Commander of the Faithful, three Imams in one age?’ the [number] astounded him. Then Imam al-Mahdi bi’llah showed him al-Mu’izz li-Din Allah who was a babe in his cradle and said, ‘And this is the fourth of us, O Nu’man!’
(Idris Imad al-Din, Tarikh al-Khulafa al-Fatimiyyin bi’l-Maghrib, transl.
Shainool Jiwa, Anthology of Isma‘ili Literature, p. 60)


“Nobody could have been closer to the Imam than myself. I was his son, and yet my heart was filled with awe of his glory. One day, when I was just a little boy, I was walking behind him. I rejoiced at looking at him and receiving his didar. Then I would look at the heavens and the skies and rejoice at looking at them. Then I would look at him once again until my heart was satisfied. I thought to myself, the master of all creation is God in the heavens, and the Imam is his representative. The more this began to sink in, the more glorious my father appeared in my eyes, the more awe-inspired was my heart. Then Imam al-Qa'im turned around to face me. He held me and hugged me close. He said, ‘My dear little son, may Allah not place in your heart what he has placed in the heart of your mawla.’ I knew, at that moment, that he was referring to all of the worries that he had.”
(al-Qadi al-Nu’man, Majalis wa'l-Musayarat)


From the moment Karim was born, it was taken for granted that he would one day become Imam, and, unlike Aly, he was educated for the job from the beginning. When he was only seven years old, living in Nairobi, he was dressed in a tiny uniform and taken to the jamatkhana to chant: “We are the direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, may peace of God be on him.”
(Leonard Slater, Aly, Random House, New York, 1965, p. 269)


“According to the Will of my Beloved Grandfather, I am your Hazar Imam. I am your 49th Mawla Mushkil Kusha.”
- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(To Jamati Leaders, Geneva, July 13, 1957)


“The Imam is a transitory being, who forms a link between the past and the future. For this reason, ensuring the continuity of the institution and its ability to fulfill its role is what my life is all about.”
- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV,
(Paris Match Interview No. 2907, 3-9 February 2005)


“When you inherit an office, which is a life office, you are simply a link in the chain. And you therefore look at life somewhat differently than if you were, I suppose, a professional who moves around and is free to do what he wishes. Now some things are impossible to achieve. I well know that. And if that is the case, I simply have to try and move the issues forward as much as I can. The next Imam will then decide how he wishes to handle the issues. But, it is the continuum which is at the back of my mind. And that's why perhaps my time dimension appears different than it might for other people.”

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(Forbes Global, Cover Story, May 31, 1999)


God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. God guideth unto His light whom He will. And God speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
- Holy Quran 24:35


“I think I would hope the next Imam has a thorough deep understanding of the Faith which he has to represent and lead in its interpretation. I think he must have a good understanding of the issues which the Isma‘ili community and the countries in which they live will have to be addressed and that is essentially the countries of Asia and Africa. And he will have to have a good understanding of the forces that are at play and that are likely to be at play. Therefore, he is going to have to be well equipped to deal with the leadership office…He is appointed during my lifetime in the sense that I am the person who knows who the next Imam would be, but only me. But he becomes Imam when I die.”

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(ITV Interview, Chantilly, June 5, 1985)



“The Imam to be explained as 'mazhar' of God, and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man.”


The term mazhar must be given careful consideration. The word mazhar does NOT mean ‘copy’ or ‘incarnation’ as the polemicist Akbarally Meherally ignorantly stated. Mazhar is an Arabic noun of place, and is translated as ‘locus of manifestation’. In this sense, when the Imam is called the mazhar (locus of manifestation) of God, it means that the soul of the Imam is like the surface of a mirror upon which the Names and Qualities of God shine and are reflected, producing an image which constitutes the Imam’s pure humanity. Therefore, the Divine Light’ is only ‘in’ the Imam insofar as the image of an object is ‘in’ a mirror. The Divine Light remains immutable and unchanging in itself and does not materially enter the created world. There is a further distinction made in Islamic theology and mysticism between God’s Essence and God’s Names, and it is only the latter aspect which is reflected in the Imam while God’s Essence remains unknowable and transcendent. Therefore, there is no question of shirk being committed since God does not actually or materially enter into the body of the Imam. This relationship between God and the Imam in these terms of mazhariyyah (manifestation) can be extended to everything in the Cosmos: All creatures, all created phenomena are the loci of manifestation (mazahir) of God’s Names and Qualities.


“This is a point which is made emphatically by the Sufis in order to avoid the accusation of shirk: the presence of God really is ‘in’ the creature, but only in the sense that an image is really ‘in’ the mirror. There is no question of the glass of the mirror undergoing any material change as a result of the image that is present on its surface, nor is there any question of a material change or descent of the object into the mirror. Thus God remains absolutely transcendent, just as the object remains totally other than the mirror.”

(Reza Shah-Kazemi, The Other in the Light of the One, The Islamic Texts Society, Cambridge 2006, pp.110-111)

[kandani]

Dear Shiraz,

Can you please reference where you got the above material from?

[From_Alamut]

Page:-16''................Judging by the amount of enthusiasm, devotion readiness to be martyred to testify to the truth of the Ismaili version of Shi`sm which it generated all over the world of Islam, we may think that the reform was timely and answered the most vital intellectual needs of the Islamic society of the time. An additional proof of this is found in the fact that the reactionary and pietistic movement known under the name of Sufism, originally bitterly antagonistic to Ismailism, soon developed close ties with it, as testified by findings in various persecution trials on charge of heresy (Al-Hallaj). Later on, when "Sufis philosophy" came into the open, it proved to be a close parallel of Ismaili phiosophy, haqaqi chiefly differing only in terminology....."

Reference: TWO MEDIAEVEL ISMAILI STRONGHOLDS IN IRAN "An Archaeological Study". By:-W. Ivanow "1960"

[AmarS]

Brother Znanwalla, Shiraz virani,

Why don't you ask this same question or make the same statement here... so we can help you enjoy the "saga" ....why boast in front of those whose Imams are hidden for 1100 plus years...ask us or don't make statements about us elsewhere where we aren't there to answer you...

Ignore the Jahaliya. He only knows how to swing from pillars. Beyond that he is proficient in cursing our Imam and his family and Ismaili.net the very forum he visits under different names.

His religious upbringing is such. Truly, these are the misguided ones! And will die misguided, i.e. Jahaliya, the progeny of Abu Jahal.

[znanwalla]

Khandani,

The art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook.
- William James (1842-1910)

[arshad1988]

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

The Arabic transliteration of this verse reads:

"Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee alamri minkum fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin faruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntum tuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu taweelan"

Now, Arshad translates the latter part as "And if ye differ in anything amongst yourselves".

But where is the Arabic word for "yourselves" in the actual verse?

The words "fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin" mean "Then if you differ in any thing". There is no "yourselves" in this part of the verse.

It seems that Arshad and others have inserted the word "yourselves" in the second part of the verse in order to create a false argument that the Ulu'l-Amr who are "min kum" (among you) can be disputed. But clearly this is not the case at all.

Secondly, Arshad, your proposed reading of the verse such as:

"Obey A, obey B, and C..." is totally botched up as you simply put a comma before the Ulu'l-Amr to take away emphasis from them when the Arabic revelation does not have any commas!

The proper reading is: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr." Thus the Messenger and Ulu'l-Amr are mentioned in the single statement.

If you obey the Messenger but disobey the Ulu'l-Amr you have not fulfilled the entire second (obey) command in this verse.

“O you who have faith! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and the holders of the [divine] authority among you (uli’l amr min kum). If you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for interpretation (tawil).”
- Holy Quran 4:59

kandani, I believe you posted the above translation. Where did the word divine come from? I believe you inserted it as well. I was quoting Yusuf Ali's translation, and have been doing so all along to remain consistent; I do not intend to twist up the meanings.

Next, what I see in the above verse is THREE commands, however, TWO of them are unconditional commands, ie OBEY Allah and OBEY the Messenger, whereas those who hold authority are CONDITIONAL as Allah does not give emphasis on the ulil-amr. This is what I personally gather from it. If you have a problem with this then point out in the grammar of the Arabic language that this CANNOT be the interpretation of the ayah. Therefore, the ayah is not confined to solely your interpretation, and I believe many have taken on the view I have proposed..

If others were to read this verse, I believe many would agree with the interpretation I have provided; I am not denying they would not agree with you. My argument is that some would not think of people disputing with WHO the ulil-amr are. Of course, it is a divine order to obey the ulil-amr, HOWEVER, there is a CONDITIONAL sentence, i.e if you dispute with a matter, then refer it back to Allah and the Messenger. Otherwise, there would be no point of revealing the later part of this verse, it would simply say Obey Allah, obey the Messenger, and those vested with authority from amongst you. Period.

pardesi, I have a few ayahs to post which may provoke some thought and reflection, Insha Allah. I know that you probably already have a deep study of these verses, but I just thought it would serve as a reminder.

Allah says:

55:1. ((Allah)) Most Gracious!
2. It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

It is my strong belief that people of various intellectual capacities, who earnestly look to the Qur'an simply for guidance, the basic and foundational principles they will most certainly receive it as He says:

47:24. Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

This ayah shows that to understand it, you need to sincerely seek to do so.

He also says:

81:27. Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds:
28. (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
29. But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.

So then, it must be also for people of all intellectual capacities as well.

38:29. (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they may mediate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.

And just take a look at how many times Allah points out the ease of understanding the Qur'an! Subhan Allah!

54:17. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
22. But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
32. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
40. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

People who take Allah's Book out of context have an agenda of their own to promote the disease which they contain in their hearts, as He says:

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

I don't believe in reading and learning everything on my own, as Allah says to ask people who know if you do not. Therefore, in the same way, if you are confused about a matter, you should ask people who are well versed and learned in these matters specific to the Qur'an.

Lastly, I just wanted to say thatI don't wish to argue and bicker, just to bring forward ideas and lessons we can learn from each other, Insha Allah. My intention in starting this topic as I have said was to give my opinion on the Qur'an and its authenticity and to promote this truth I believe in, but I don't know how it got swayed in a completely different direction. The above are simply my personal beliefs. I hope we continue to promote things we can learn from one another, as I have enjoyed reading all the posts here, except from a few individuals... I hope we will continue to promote healthy discussion, and shun the ignorant comments.

[ShamsB]

Lastly, I just wanted to say thatI don't wish to argue and bicker, just to bring forward ideas and lessons we can learn from each other, Insha Allah. My intention in starting this topic as I have said was to give my opinion on the Qur'an and its authenticity and to promote this truth I believe in, but I don't know how it got swayed in a completely different direction. The above are simply my personal beliefs. I hope we continue to promote things we can learn from one another, as I have enjoyed reading all the posts here, except from a few individuals... I hope we will continue to promote healthy discussion, and shun the ignorant comments.

Look at your statement - you wanted to promote your truth - meaning you wanted to come here and prove others to be untrue - your statements have been to that effect.
Our faith allows us to have pluralistic opinions.
To some of us - Obey Allah - means obey the Imam...which may not sit well with you...but that's okay with us..you may not view it that way.

And i think you proved the point that even when using Yusuf Ali - who was a sunni translator and commentator on the Quran you and Kandani came up with totally different interpretations...I use Mir Ahmed Ali - who is a Shia translator - which is more in line with how I practice my faith.

As ismailies - we don't proselytize or actively go around accusing other muslim sects of heresy or wrongdoing..especially on their sites. We ask for the same respect.

Shams

[znanwalla]

"And he (Ibrahim) made it (i.e., the Light of Prophethood and Imamat) a Word enduring among his children, that they may return (to Him)" (43:28).

That is Hazrat Ibrahim entrusted his children with all the attributes and characteristics of Prophethood and Imamat in the form of a pure and wisdom-filled Word, which continues in his progeny till the Resurrection....

Wajh Aliyy: Face of Ali, Vision of Ali, Vision of the Imam of the Time:

"The Holy Prophet has said: "To look at the face of Ali is worship ('ibadat)." (Sara'ir, p. 116).

Why is it so? Because Ali is the Face of God, as he himself says: "I am the Face of God which He has mentioned in the saying: Wherever you turn, there is the Face of God." (2:115)" [Source: A Thousand Wisdoms, #924, p. 481]

"God has praised the Imam in four places: Lâhut (World of Divinity or Oneness), Jabarut (World of Light or Intellect), Malakut (World of Angels or Souls) and Nâsut (World of human beings)" [Source: Subtle Realities, p. 5].

[kandani]

"Next, what I see in the above verse is THREE commands, however, TWO of them are unconditional commands, ie OBEY Allah and OBEY the Messenger, whereas those who hold authority are CONDITIONAL as Allah does not give emphasis on the ulil-amr. This is what I personally gather from it. If you have a problem with this then point out in the grammar of the Arabic language that this CANNOT be the interpretation of the ayah. Therefore, the ayah is not confined to solely your interpretation, and I believe many have taken on the view I have proposed.. "

Where is the third command? The verse commands twice (the word "obey" appears twice not three times).

Arshad, please show where the command to obey the Ulu'l-Amr is conditional? (Also note that the latter part does not contain the words "among yourselves" after "if you differ in anyting").

In fact, the same command to obey the Prophet is used for the Ulul Amr. Now you know the command to obey the Prophet is unconditional. Allah did not use a separate command (a third "obey") for the Ulu'l-Amr. This simply means that the obedience to the Ulu'l-Amr is also unconditional just like the Prophet.

Despite what you read into the verse, there is no single verse of the Qur'an which allows us to dispute with the Ulul-Amr. The latter part of 4:59 refers to the believers differing about something. And the later verse 4:63 tells us to refer disputes to the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr.

Yes we are here to have a proper discussion. But it can be difficult when people simply ignore what a Quranic verse states and read into it what they want it to mean.

Of course, you have every right to your interpretation but that does not guarantee its correctness.

55:1. ((Allah)) Most Gracious!
2. It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

Yes, Allah teaches the Qur'an. But does Allah teach every person directly through Himself?

Other Quranic verses clearly stipulate that it is the Prophet who teaches the Book to the people. The Quran being easy to understand is conditional upon the Qur'an being taught by the Teacher.

“And We have sent down unto you [Muhammad] the Reminder; that you may explain to men what is sent down for them, and that they may reflect.”
- Holy Quran 16:44

I don't believe in reading and learning everything on my own, as Allah says to ask people who know if you do not. Therefore, in the same way, if you are confused about a matter, you should ask people who are well versed and learned in these matters specific to the Qur'an.

So then, Arshad, who are the "people who know" in the highest rank of knowledge?

[pardesi]

Dear Arshad

I am glad we understand each other well and it will lead all the participants towards better understanding, insha Allah.

If you go to the beginning of this debate or atleast where things really got going; this and the other thread “Is Quran complete”, you will see that the arguments are all about each other’s understanding of the Law and principles of guidance as laid out in Quran and hadith. This is why I have always said that we do not necessarily dispute what is in the Quran, rather we raise questions as to what is left out of it, if any, and the haste in which it was put together by unqualified/unauthorized people in light of non-inclusion of input by the Ahle-Bayt.

Quran is as you said an open book and I believe it is open to individual interpretation. There are verses which are clear and fundamental and then there are verses that are ambiguous and only those whom Allah has favored know its hidden meanings. I believe the hidden meanings are hidden because we would never be able to understand and therefore the knowledge of all that has been transferred to “raasikhoona fil ilm” and they do not necessarily have to interpret those verses word by word in a written form.

In one of my previous posts I gave you the example of graduating from high school two different ways. The difference between GED and High School Diploma is that the students who attend high schools learn within a system under the guidance of a qualified teacher who has acquired the knowledge beforehand. The GED graduate tries to learn by reading the books on his own without any supervised teaching. Now apply this theory to learning Quran. This was my argument about following a school of thought.

You have used bold letters in the ayahs you quoted to either draw attention or implying they refer to us. Let us take one of them;

… But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings.

It is well known that Ismailis put more emphasis on the Baatini aspects. Does not necessarily mean that we disregard the Zahiri aspects. Here in this verse Allah is pointing towards hypocrites, those who had accepted Islam verbally but their hearts were void of Iman. Ismailis do not search for hidden meanings on their own if that is what you were pointing at. That is not our job. This job is entrusted to those to whom Allah has given this knowledge. Here Allah is referring to those who draw their own meanings without any knowledge whatsoever especially when it is not their job to do so. Now if you continue on to the next part of the verse Allah says that the knowledge of hidden meanings is only with him, period. I have read this ayat so many times and I get stuck on this. Why does Quran have hidden meanings that Allah does not want anyone to know. Then what is the purpose? Then I read the next part which after the period starts as

….. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Now here Allah mentions people “firmly grounded in knowledge” and “men of understanding”. It is obvious that Allah, as mentioned in the earlier part, is the only one with knowledge of the hidden meanings. Then He is saying "and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. Could you explain this to me?

Just to draw your attention and not to create mischief lets take the commas, colons and periods out of this verse and disregard the punctuations for the time being and then look at it:

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning) they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Is it possible that when the task of inserting special characters and punctuations was taken up some commas and periods and punctuation marks were misplaced thereby altering the context and meaning of a particular verse? Let us insert a “pause” at the end of bolded sentence above. This will make the “s” in the next word “say” a capital letter. Remember the punctuations and special characters are man made and were not in the original Quran that was written on parchments and even in the early edition collected in Abu Bakr/Umar’s time and therefore the placements can be questioned. Don’t read too much into my hypothetical observation. It will create another never ending debate and we are not even near the end of the first one yet. Besides, I am not very good in Arabic language so my whole approach above could be wrong. I am just trying to prove to you that there is a need of a teacher who can teach the meanings of Quran and then it is up to us to contemplate and try to understand.

The other ayahs you quoted they are all related to understanding the basic and fundamental verses and only after the teacher has taught them.

Just for the record, everything I have written here is not an official Ismaili line. These are just my thoughts for the sake of arguments.

[znanwalla]

The Wise Qur'an, describes the praise-worthy manners and qualities of the Prophets (pbuh),

"These (Prophets) are they on whom God bestowed favors, from among the Prophets of the progeny of Adam and of those whom We carried with Nuh and of the progeny of Ibrahim and Israel and of those whom We guided and chose; when the verses of the Beneficent God were recited to them, they fell down prostrating and weeping" (19:58). This is the most exalted place of the sacred tears, i.e. the pure eyes of the Prophets and Awliya'.

"The Wise Qur'an repeatedly says that the main fountainhead of knowledge is one, which is the one whom God and Prophet have made the light of knowledge and the teacher of the Book and Wisdom, namely the True Imam (of the time).

It is he who in reality is the 'alim (possessor of knowledge) of given knowledge (ilu-u laduni), with whose mention, allusions and similitudes of the Qur'an abounds.

It is the Imam who is the Embodied Light, Rope of God, Speaking Book, Straight Path, Tree of Knowledge (Holy Tree), Kawthar, Progeny of Ibrahim (Progeny of Muhammad), Rasikhun fi'l-ilm (those who are well-grounded in knowledge), Imam-i Mubin (Manifest Imam), Shahid (Witness), Mu'awwil-i Qur'an (the one who gives the ta'wil of the Qur'an), Guide, Heir of the Prophet, Gate of knowledge and wisdom, Supreme Name, Light of 'Ali, Waliyy-i amr (Custodian of Command), Firm Handle, Shah-i Wilayat (King of Wilayat), Subtle World, Ibda'i Body, Hidden Book, Perfect Man, Embodied Paradise, Means of Salvation, Nuh's Ark, Soul of the World, Single Soul, Last Day, Face of Allah, Mountain of Qaf, Honoured Rock, Sound Heart, Sun of Azal (Pre-eternity), Ladder of Heaven, Sur (Trumpet) of love and annihilation, Lamp of Recognition, Treasure of Secrets, etc." [Source: Rubies & Pearls] (Page 21)

Now what purpose can a "hidden Imam" serve? None !

To summarize the virtues of of having a Manifest Imam, it is beautifully said that this has paramount importance in religion, salat prayer, also becomes a basic condition of repentance... the song of love as well as worship of Allah SWT ; to follow the rightful Imams, is the proof of having fear of God as well as that of showing gratitude; it is the means of real love ; in it lies the purity of the heart and also the freshness of the soul; it is a sweet wisdom-filled pain as well as a delightful medicine.

There is a hadith which says that anyone who dies without acknowledging his or her Imam of the time, dies the death of a pervert !

[arshad1988]

Dear Arshad


You have used bold letters in the ayahs you quoted to either draw attention or implying they refer to us. Let us take one of them;

… But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings.

pardesi, you took me the wrong way. I was referring to others who you mentioned such as the Taliban who you say have used the Qur'an and interpreted to suit their needs. I was just trying to say that people can use it to promote their own agenda.

[pardesi]

Thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected.

[arshad1988]

"Next, what I see in the above verse is THREE commands, however, TWO of them are unconditional commands, ie OBEY Allah and OBEY the Messenger, whereas those who hold authority are CONDITIONAL as Allah does not give emphasis on the ulil-amr. This is what I personally gather from it. If you have a problem with this then point out in the grammar of the Arabic language that this CANNOT be the interpretation of the ayah. Therefore, the ayah is not confined to solely your interpretation, and I believe many have taken on the view I have proposed.. "

Where is the third command? The verse commands twice (the word "obey" appears twice not three times).

Arshad, please show where the command to obey the Ulu'l-Amr is conditional? (Also note that the latter part does not contain the words "among yourselves" after "if you differ in anyting").

In fact, the same command to obey the Prophet is used for the Ulul Amr. Now you know the command to obey the Prophet is unconditional. Allah did not use a separate command (a third "obey") for the Ulu'l-Amr. This simply means that the obedience to the Ulu'l-Amr is also unconditional just like the Prophet.

Despite what you read into the verse, there is no single verse of the Qur'an which allows us to dispute with the Ulul-Amr. The latter part of 4:59 refers to the believers differing about something. And the later verse 4:63 tells us to refer disputes to the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr.

Yes we are here to have a proper discussion. But it can be difficult when people simply ignore what a Quranic verse states and read into it what they want it to mean.

Of course, you have every right to your interpretation but that does not guarantee its correctness.

55:1. ((Allah)) Most Gracious!
2. It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

Yes, Allah teaches the Qur'an. But does Allah teach every person directly through Himself?

Other Quranic verses clearly stipulate that it is the Prophet who teaches the Book to the people. The Quran being easy to understand is conditional upon the Qur'an being taught by the Teacher.

“And We have sent down unto you [Muhammad] the Reminder; that you may explain to men what is sent down for them, and that they may reflect.”
- Holy Quran 16:44

I don't believe in reading and learning everything on my own, as Allah says to ask people who know if you do not. Therefore, in the same way, if you are confused about a matter, you should ask people who are well versed and learned in these matters specific to the Qur'an.

So then, Arshad, who are the "people who know" in the highest rank of knowledge?

kandani,

First Command: Obey Allah
Second Command: Obey the Messenger
Third Command: And the holders of authority from amongst you.

Emphasis, ie "OBEY" was put on Allah and the Messenger, not on the ulil-amr. Obedience to Allah and the Messenger were unconditional in this sense.

Next, conditional obedience was put on the ulil-amr, that is, if you dispute in any matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger. Now why would Allah say this unless it is in regards to the ulil-amr??

There are others who read it in this manner, in fact many who have read it - I have never heard it in this fashion and this is the first time I've ever seen the logic you use in this ayah.

I never said that the way I interpreted the verse was the correct way, I said it was my opinion. I also said that you understand the verse differently, and others may agree with your logic, however I would have never thought of reading the verse like you have.

Finally, I never said that you could not approach those highest in rank, if you are referring to the Imam, for understanding parts of the Qur'an. However, if I personally have a question in regards to an ayah of Qur'an, I simply cannot approach the Imam.

Shams, I use the translation used by Yusuf Ali because it is widely used, and people have said that he has been fair to the expression in respect to the context, as well as the Arabic language itself. Also, some argue that he was Shi'a as he was born into a Bohra family. Also, I never came to disprove you, I respect your opinion, and agree that we should have a pluralistic view of the various personal interpretations. However I was simply providing mine, given that pardesi had asked me of my personal beliefs. I don't know where accusing of heresy and wrongdoing came about, because I never accused you of anything, rather I was giving my own opinion. In terms of accusing of heresy and wrongdoing, you should try to approach znanwalla to do the same. I don't know why you did not say anything when all I hear from that user is profanity with respect to all interpretations and understanding of Islam beside their own.

3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning) they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Is it possible that when the task of inserting special characters and punctuations was taken up some commas and periods and punctuation marks were misplaced thereby altering the context and meaning of a particular verse? Let us insert a “pause” at the end of bolded sentence above. This will make the “s” in the next word “say” a capital letter. Remember the punctuations and special characters are man made and were not in the original Quran that was written on parchments and even in the early edition collected in Abu Bakr/Umar’s time and therefore the placements can be questioned. Don’t read too much into my hypothetical observation. It will create another never ending debate and we are not even near the end of the first one yet. Besides, I am not very good in Arabic language so my whole approach above could be wrong. I am just trying to prove to you that there is a need of a teacher who can teach the meanings of Quran and then it is up to us to contemplate and try to understand.

pardesi, it is well known that in Arabic, that the word "wa" is used often to start a sentence, similar to how you start a sentence with a capital letter in the english language.

Let us see how the translators have translated the ayah:

Yusuf Ali:
3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Palmer:
He it is who has revealed to thee the Book, of which there are some verses that are decisive, they are the mother 1 of the Book; and others ambiguous; but as for those in whose hearts is perversity, they follow what is ambiguous, and do crave for sedition, craving for (their own) interpretation of it; but none know the interpretation of it except God. But those who are well grounded in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord; but none will remember save those who possess minds.

Picthall:
He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Rodwell:
He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous;--these are the basis 4 of the Book--and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, "We believe in it: it is all from our Lord." But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding.

You see, they all agree on this ayah.

[pardesi]

You see, they all agree on this ayah.

Yes and almost a billion more. But that was not the point I was making. First, I thought "wa" means "and" and that is how it is translated all throughout Quran.

How is a translation done? In case of arabic language and if you translate it into english or any other language you totally rely on how it is read/written in arabic. Another thing in case of translating Arabic that is kept in mind is the punctuation marks at the end of sentenses telling reciter to either pause or continue without pausing. It can also tell you if it is preferred or a must or left upon the reciter to decide. When you take into consideration all that and then some you arrive at a correct translation of what is written in Arabic. Now my question was what if the punctuations are wrong? What if the periods and commas were in wrong places? The translator is translating what is in front of him. He is not trying to find mistakes in punctuations. He is simply translating what is written.

But let us not argue over this. It could get boring. I just tried to bring my concern to light. To err is human. In case of Quran there has never been devine intervention to correct the scribes or reciter or to punish the desecrater. Atleast not on record.

[znanwalla]

Arshad,

Just don't waste our time please with your irrelevant arguments...after the prophet those who abandoned the Prophet's family have fallen into misguidance....those who disobey the olil Amr i.e. the Imams from the pure progeny of the Holy Prophet are Munafiqun and have disobeyed the prophet and those who disobey the prophet have disobeyed Allah....it is a combination and establishes WE/US/OURS !...if this is not what you belief then just go and do what you want ....we know what we are doing...

Hadith al Thaqalyn...This is a classified Mutawatir and is found in many books of Sunnis and Sh'ias...the Prophet is preaching the whole Umma..."Verily I am leaving with you TWO precious things, the Book and my PROGENY, my Ahl al Bayt, for as long as you cling to these TWO, you will never go astray and TRULY they will NOT be parted from each other until they join me at the HAWD (pool of Paradise)..."...now many of you are clinging to what?

So firstly many of you disobeyed the prophet and so have in consequence disobeyed Allah...secondly the Prophet is clear in his indication that Imamat will be perpetual and not restrictive, if the TWO weighty things are not going to be parted..and the third indication is that the Quran is with the Imam and vice Versa......now how does one cling to the Imam and also not obey him ? frankly your logic baffles me !

In Hadith "Aman ul Umma", once again the prophet (SAW) is abundantly clear...

"Just as the stars are a means of securing "aman" for the people of this earth from drowning, my Ahl al bayt is a means of securing "aman" and avoiding divisiveness...IF THE TRIBE AMONGST THE ARABS OPPOSES THEM THEY FALL INTO DISPUTE AND BECOME PART OF SATAN'S MINNIONS..."

Now can anyone not oppose but disobey? No ! so if they disobey then they have opposed ! it is logical ! so then the Prophet's says they are Minnions of Satan !....now are you guys more knowledgeable then the Prophet of islam in understanding the Quran? No !

Additionally read hadith al Safina; hadith al manzila and Hadith Yawm al Dar......it is clear you are following conjectures and half truths....you have caused a mockery of Islam and the Prophet and ofcourse the Quran by trying to create your own TEXTS and calling it the Quran....and then you want to teach us Islam.... also many Sh'ias today are following mullahs and ayatollahs when the basic principle for them all is the concept of walaya....all Sh'ias agree on the need for an "infallible" guide but they are happy now to follow fallible ayatollahs and muftis...it is okay if you wish to do so....it is your own wish...don't come here and teach us anything for you can't.....

[arshad1988]

Arshad,

Just don't waste our time please with your irrelevant arguments...after the prophet those who abandoned the Prophet's family have fallen into misguidance....those who disobey the olil Amr i.e. the Imams from the pure progeny of the Holy Prophet are Munafiqun and have disobeyed the prophet and those who disobey the prophet have disobeyed Allah....it is a combination and establishes WE/US/OURS !...if this is not what you belief then just go and do what you want ....we know what we are doing...

Hadith al Thaqalyn...This is a classified Mutawatir and is found in many books of Sunnis and Sh'ias...the Prophet is preaching the whole Umma..."Verily I am leaving with you TWO precious things, the Book and my PROGENY, my Ahl al Bayt, for as long as you cling to these TWO, you will never go astray and TRULY they will NOT be parted from each other until they join me at the HAWD (pool of Paradise)..."...now many of you are clinging to what?

So firstly many of you disobeyed the prophet and so have in consequence disobeyed Allah...secondly the Prophet is clear in his indication that Imamat will be perpetual and not restrictive, if the TWO weighty things are not going to be parted..and the third indication is that the Quran is with the Imam and vice Versa......now how does one cling to the Imam and also not obey him ? frankly your logic baffles me !

In Hadith "Aman ul Umma", once again the prophet (SAW) is abundantly clear...

"Just as the stars are a means of securing "aman" for the people of this earth from drowning, my Ahl al bayt is a means of securing "aman" and avoiding divisiveness...IF THE TRIBE AMONGST THE ARABS OPPOSES THEM THEY FALL INTO DISPUTE AND BECOME PART OF SATAN'S MINNIONS..."

Now can anyone not oppose but disobey? No ! so if they disobey then they have opposed ! it is logical ! so then the Prophet's says they are Minnions of Satan !....now are you guys more knowledgeable then the Prophet of islam in understanding the Quran? No !

Additionally read hadith al Safina; hadith al manzila and Hadith Yawm al Dar......it is clear you are following conjectures and half truths....you have caused a mockery of Islam and the Prophet and ofcourse the Quran by trying to create your own TEXTS and calling it the Quran....and then you want to teach us Islam.... also many Sh'ias today are following mullahs and ayatollahs when the basic principle for them all is the concept of walaya....all Sh'ias agree on the need for an "infallible" guide but they are happy now to follow fallible ayatollahs and muftis...it is okay if you wish to do so....it is your own wish...don't come here and teach us anything for you can't.....

For once, I think I'll take your advice:

The art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook.
- William James (1842-1910)

[AmarS]

Brother Arshad,

Shams, I use the translation used by Yusuf Ali because it is widely used, and people have said that he has been fair to the expression in respect to the context, as well as the Arabic language itself. Also, some argue that he was Shi'a as he was born into a Bohra family.

You are right that Yusuf Ali was born into a Bohora family, the faith he later abandoned.

However, the translation you see today is not what Yusuf Ali had originally presented. His translation was revised by Maudoodi, and was re-revised by the Wahabis.

This was the subject of long discussion in another forum.