Sahabae Karam and their conspiracies

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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kmaherali
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

znanwalla wrote:So far the Ismaili Imamat has come down in an unbroken lineage and Justice Russell actually UPHELD the direct descent claim of the Aga Khan 111, in a court of law after substantive evidence was presented to the court, in one of the longest trials reported at the time....
More information about the case which provides a powerful proof outside the Quran and the Hadith is given in this forum at:

Anecdotes --> Haji Bibi Case Incident.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=355

Binom's assertion is that the Quran and the Hadith are the only basis to prove Imamat. I am saying that there are many other ways of proving it such as the many other 'internal' proofs/evidences pointing to the Imam being the Bearer of the Noor in the references below.

Anecdotes --> PYARA IMAM NI PYARI VAATO
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=2664

Anecdotes --> The Silent Prince of the World of Islam

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=554
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

Binom's assertion is that the Quran and the Hadith are the only basis to prove Imamat.
The Qur'an and hadith are the only real bases for proving the imamat of your Ismaili imam. You have not showed this not to be the case.
More information about the case which provides a powerful proof outside the Quran and the Hadith is given in this forum at:

Anecdotes --> Haji Bibi Case Incident.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=355

I am saying that there are many other ways of proving it such as the many other 'internal' proofs/evidences pointing to the Imam being the Bearer of the Noor in the references below

Anecdotes --> PYARA IMAM NI PYARI VAATO
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=2664

Anecdotes --> The Silent Prince of the World of Islam

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=554
Kmaherali, why do you avoid the questions which I pose to you? I have told you that the problem with these internal proofs/evidences that you claim prove your imam is that there are as many, if not more, of them pointing away from him as there are pointing toward him. How are you able to distinquish the true from the false? What is your criterion?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote: How are you able to distinquish the true from the false? What is your criterion?
The leneal descent and the authority of the Imam was established in the courts of law. What more can one want as a proof? The other internal evidences are only reinforcements.
binom
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Post by binom »

kmaherali wrote:
binom wrote: How are you able to distinquish the true from the false? What is your criterion?
The leneal descent and the authority of the Imam was established in the courts of law. What more can one want as a proof? The other internal evidences are only reinforcements.
The only thing that was etablished in court was the lineal descent of your imam from the Prophet (saw). I'm not disputing that your imam is not a descendant of the Prophet (saw). That's irrelavent. There are many people who are descendants of the Prophet known as sadat (plural of sayyid).

They did not, however, establish your imam to be the manifestation of God's Word in court. That is the issue at hand. Nor does it follow, as you probably think, that just because your imam is a descedant of the Prophet (saw) he is therefore the manifestation of the Word of God. That is simply not true. If it were, either all sadat would be the manifestation of God's Word, which is absurd, or some, or only one. And if you claim it only has to be one, and that this one is your imam, how will you prove that to me? The question still remains to be answered.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote:They did not, however, establish your imam to be the manifestation of God's Word in court. That is the issue at hand. Nor does it follow, as you probably think, that just because your imam is a descedant of the Prophet (saw) he is therefore the manifestation of the Word of God. That is simply not true. If it were, either all sadat would be the manifestation of God's Word, which is absurd, or some, or only one. And if you claim it only has to be one, and that this one is your imam, how will you prove that to me? The question still remains to be answered.
It appears that you did not read the entire thread. Below is a pertinent excerpt.

The Aga Khan Case was the most interesting, important, sensational Case of the current times. The leaders from quite a number of communities attended the Court proceedings -- leaders of Hindus, Muslims, Boharas, Khojas and also Mullahs and Molwis.

During the Case, altogether one hundred and twenty eight interesting points were discussed, and all these turned out to be in favour of Sultan Mohamed Shah Agakhan III. A history of the Aga Khan and his families was presented.

Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdeen converted Hindus of Sind Province in India. Pir Sadardin has written an important book titled "DASAVTAR" (TEN INCARNATIONS OF GOD) which played a very useful and important role in the Aga khan case.

A STRANGE AND AMAZING FACT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT IN THE BOOK THAT HAZARAT ALI WAS SHRI VISHNU IN HIS TENTH AVTAR, AND ALSO STRANGE AND AMAZING THAT ALL THE PREVIOUS NINE AVTAARS OF SHRI VISHNU WERE IN FACT THOSE OF HAZARAT ALI. THIS IMPORTANT FACT IS NOT MENTIONED IN ANY OF THE OTHER SCRIPTURES OF THE WORLD.

Sir Sultan Mohammad Shah proved in the court that he was the sole authority to accept the tributes from his followers as he was the bearer of the "NOOR" of Imamat or "NOOR" of Ali. He had absolute authority over the Ismaili Muslims all over the world.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

binom wrote:
Binom's assertion is that the Quran and the Hadith are the only basis to prove Imamat.

Are you sure that the Hadith and now a days availbale Quran are still in its original text? they both had been changed too many times by Calips, Sunny Ulemas and other translators, so they both are not in real text which was originaly quoted by Allah to Prophet Mohammed, therefore I do not agree with your above stated sentence that they both are real bases for any kind of proof for Imamat.
We Ismailis believe in our Imam because he is speaking Qu'ran for us and we do not need any more proof of any changed Quran or Hadith for his Imamat.
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

On the evidence of the revealed law and tanzil, the trust "Imanat" which the heavens and the earth and the mountains were unable to accept, it was accepted by mankind...

" WE offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it and man carried it..."

Now after accepting this trust , mankind deserved prostration of the intimate angels who are the noblest in creation...and so the angels testified to the descent of the manifestation of the person of divine knowledge, amongst the human species...."Imam" was there since Adam !

You are disputing the descendancy of our Imam...who cares? even the Wahabbis and the Saudis I have talked to have not been able to do so...on the contrary a couple of them actually told me that they have established his decendancy as this was critical for them to check and some of they have even joined the AKDN and are working with the Imam ....

OUR Imams have claimed their descent since centuries now and have said openly that they are the direct descendants of Muhamad SAW and Ali (AS)...those who challenged were defeated....they have vanquished and disappeared into oblivion....ismaili Imamat is intact...what more proof does one need?

Tell me .....are you disputing Imamat ? or are you merely trying to denigrate "Ismaili Imamat"?

One cannot go to the second step unless the first one is established and agreed upon....so first lets argue over Imamat in general if you are from the progeny of Umar....and if you are a twelver Sh'ia ( a Khoja dissident Asnasheri masquerading under the guidance of maherally, then have the courage to come clean and we will prove to you expeditiously from your own authentic books, that Ismaili Immat (as per Sh'ia scholars) and amongst the Sh'ia Imamat is the only true and real Imamat !

Now please don't waste our time anymore...I have given you options which are fair....debate Imamat if you are a Sunni or a Wahhabi ! or if you are Sh'ia then let us show you the forgeries in your own books....

You are saying that others too have claimed that they are descendants of the prophet...sure , have they claimed Imamat? Many claimed that the prophet was a magician and a poet? was he ?

If the Prophet had 12 wives and many children, then are we talking of such "descendancy" ? those unjust ones who faked such claims? where are they now? can you show us please?

How can anyone rely on a "hidden" teacher because Qazi Noman's family, Hassann bin-Sabah, Nasir Khusraw, al Tusi, were all followers of 12 Imams but they could no longer wait for the return and went in search of the MANIFEST IMAM and found him in the Ismaili Imamat...read their books....they were all Twelvers like you !

According to some ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions , some group of men began to interpret Quran from their sectarian point of view and began to style themselves as Ulama and Ahl-uz-Zikr and these Ulama further cut up the Muslims into various sects according to their own school or method of thought.

Now every Mulla of a mosque, who does not know what is beyond his nose, claims to interpret the Quran and styles himself Alim.

After Prophet's passing away, a group of visitors went to his widow, Bibi Aisha. They asked her, "What was the Prophet, God's Messenger, like?

"Have you read the Koran?" She replied. He was the living Koran.

In Jange Sifin Ali said he was Qur'an E Natikq; the Book (Qur'an) was Samit. All Shia's accept this.

Now, let tell me whether or not Ali (as) was lying or telling the truth?. what did he mean by what he said to the muslims? Did he not say to listen to what he was saying ? Yes or No ? are you disputing the above?
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

"...And ‘Umar met him (‘Ali) after this and said to him: ‘Congratulations, O son of Abu Talib! Now, morning and evening (i.e. forever) you are the master of every believing man and woman.....”

Lo ! of the Covenant it will be asked ! (Sura Bani Isra'il)...Truly, the hearing and the sight and the heart - each of these it will be asked...! (Sura al Qiyama)

MAN KUNTUM MAWLAHU FA ALIUN MAWLAHU !
He of whom I am the Mowla, Ali is his Mowla


Umar disobeyed the Holy Prophet when the prophet asked for a parchment and pen on his deathbed to dictate instructions which would have saved the Umma from going astray.....as a man arose to give this parchment and pen to the Prophet, Umar made him sit down saying.."this man (the prophet) is delirious (nauzbillah)...the Book of Allah is sufficient for us.......this behaviour has now left the Umma fragmented with variant versions and each waving their own to the other....

Religion has moved abruptly often in ways that make educated, religious muslims uncomfortable. Militias are offering Quran courses. Titles came cheaply. ..a butcher with no knowledge of Islam becomes the leader of a mosque. ...what a joke ?

A moderate cleric, recalled watching in amazement as a former student, who never earned more than mediocre marks, whizzed by stalled traffic in a convoy of sport utility vehicles in Baghdad. He had become a religious leader.

The state of affairs in the Muslim world of today: the populations are poor in physical material needs as well as in institutional capacity while the governing few are wealthy beyond their wildest dreams feeding on the wealth of the state as if it is their personal treasury.

If Islam is incompatible with today's modernity how come it enfranchised women 1400 years ago and gave them their rights which ? How did Muslim civilizations lose their modernity?

It was to Muslim universities that the European scholars came to study and it was to these highly pluralistic nations under the Quran that the Jew sought asylum from the pogroms and butchery of Christian Europe.

Indeed Islamic nations were the wonder of the world in trade and finance, in arts and sciences, in architecture and town planning, in governance and law, in pluralism and in the pluralistic use of public spaces without restriction to color, class or creed. who destroyed it all !

When man is at the heart of corruption and enforces his rule with the gun as would a warlord, a feudal lord, a king, why is the "deen" of Islam (i.e. the way of Islam in all the aspects of living out one's life) made the scapegoat for the ills of your rulers? explain

After the final pilgrimage to Mecca and on the return journey to Medina by the Holy Prophet in the 7th century, and the last year of the Holy Prophet’s life (May peace be upon him).

Muslim historians agree on an important event that took place at Ghadir i Khumm that was critical to the future of the Muslim Ummah: “Muhammad caused the caravan to be stopped and from an improvised pulpit delivered an address.”

Once again the principal Sunni and Shi’i sources show no disagreement over the facts of the episode. The following is the account given in Ibn Hanbal, a Sunni collection of hadith:

We were with the Apostle of God in his journey and we stopped at Ghadir Khumm.

We performed the obligatory prayer together and a place was swept for the Apostle under two trees and he performed the mid-day prayer. And then he took ‘Ali by the hand and said to the people:

‘Do you not acknowledge that I have a greater claim on each of the believers than they have on themselves?’

And they replied ‘Yes!’ And he took ‘Ali’s hand and said: ‘Of whomever I am Lord (Mawla), then ‘Ali is also his Lord. O God! Be Thou the supporter of whoever supports ‘Ali and the enemy of whoever opposes him.’

And ‘Umar met him (‘Ali) after this and said to him: ‘Congratulations, O son of Abu Talib! Now, morning and evening (i.e. forever) you are the master of every believing man and woman.”


And what happened thereafter? it is history for you all to read and know...!
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

pardesi wrote:Arshad wrote:

Which madhab was the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him affiliated with? He was not a Shaf'i, a Hanafi, a Hanbali, a Maliki, a Jaf'ari, etc...he was a Muslim. Who ever said you need to be part of a particular madhab to be considered a true Muslim? A true Muslim, is one that submits his whole self to Allah. znanwalla gave a very good reference to an ayah which speaks of what a Muslim is:

5:69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I don't think quoting the verse that speaks of breaking up the religion into sects is quoted out of context at all, as I have explained above.


My comments:

Actually the idea of following one of the four madhabs for Sunnis comes from Sunnis scholars. Its all over the internet. Madhab is not a parallel to Deen (Islam), rather it is the interpretation of religion by the mujtahids who create and enjoy a following and hence we have different madhabs. Obviously the Prophet could not be a follower, he was followed. We are followers and unless you are a master of ijtihad, you follow someones teachings. Either you are wrong or all of the four Imams. Then again, I remember, you had said you follow the teachings of the ahl-al-bayt. So you do follow a school of thought. There is nothing wrong in subscribing to a school of thought.

Yousufali has added "in the Qur'an" in perenthesis. That is his understanding in verse 5:69. Others have used "Allah" as they deemed fit. As for verse 6:159 about breaking up into sects; it was revealed in relation to the Jews and Christians.

According to a shia source:

"According to Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir this verse is in continuation of verse 154. Those who abandoned the path shown by the Holy Prophet through hadith al thaqalayn and his final announcement at Ghadir Khum, in fact sowed the seeds of discord and sectarianism in Islam, otherwise the directions given by the Holy Prophet, as commanded by Allah, were clear."

"My Ahl ul Bayt are like the ark of Nuh. Whoso gets into it is saved, and whoso stays away is drowned and lost" said the Holy Prophet."

The Holy Prophet also said:

"Out of the seventy-one sects of the followers of Musa, only one was on the right path. The followers of Isa also divided their religion into seventy two sects, out of which only one was on the right path. Likewise there will be seventy three sects among my followers, out of which only one will be on the right path."

The followers of true Islam hold fast to the Quran and the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt as had been directed by the Holy Prophet."


Arshad wrote:

What is my wrong with my intent? If I have an opinion, especially in regards to the authenticity of the Qur'an I believe I am entitled to it. Ismailis in general are not sure of this matter and it is not clear to all, ...otherwise this thread would not have been started in the first place. Hence I decided to share my belief and give my opinion of what the truth is. Have I ever given any sense of attacking your's or anyone else's personal beliefs? I was simply giving my own just as you and everyone else has given their own as well.


My response:

You are once again bringing up the matter of authenticity of Quran implying that it is our stand that what is in the Quran is not authentic. I have made it clear a few times that it is not what is in the Quran that we see a problem with. I did explain to you why we doubt your intentions. "doodh ka jhala chach bhi phoonk kar peeta hai". Yes you are entitled to your opinion but when opinions sound like declaration then we have a problem. I mentioned in my previous post that you have not offended me and neither was it my intention to offend anybody. You probably missed it.


Arshad wrote:

I do not know of other sites and their bashing, but I expect at least a little respect, especially since I did not harm anyone with my words; rather I only present arguments to back up my opinion. I do not try to talk ill of others, especially when they have not done anything to me.


My response:

Again, I agree. So long as you keep it as an opinion and not become judgemental over sensitive issues pertaining to Ismailis and their faith we are Okay. Some non-ismailis take the matters into their own hands and start judging us. This does not sit well with us Ismailis. Allah has instructed the Prophet to approach even the non-believers with respect and in nicer ways. Allah has also instructed muslims to refrain from speaking ill of those who take others as gods. Unfortunately most of our muslim brothers fail to take heed.


Arshad wrote:

Generally, my belief is that anything that is said about deen should be corroborated against the Qur'an. If it goes against the Qur'an then it should not be followed. As for interpreting the Qur'an, I have referenced to verses of the Qur'an which indicate that it is clear, and that other verses are allegorical; however, the clear verses are the foundation of the Book, and the guidance for mankind.


My response:

Very true. But one must understand Quran and be very clear about its teachings before going on a rampage armed with the ayahs of Quran and start misquoting and out of their proper context. Knowing the translation does not make one an aalim-e-deen. It takes a lifetime for mortals like us to even start to understand what Allah says or means in the Quran.


Arshad wrote:

And this your Lord's straight path; We have clarified the revelations to a people who remember. [6:126]

And We have come to them with a book which We have distinguished with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who have faith. [7:52]

Should we then not believe Allah (that is, if you believe the Book we have is complete, which I do) that its verses are clear?


My response:

In 6:126 Allah is referring to "a people". A special class who have been given the clarification and knowledge of everything that which Allah has revealed and made them "waris" of the Book. Sunnis believe these to be the scribes and their Ulema, Shias believe them to be the Ahle Bayt. A large part of this Book is unclear for which you need a Mu'alim. Every heavenly Book was accompanied by a Mu'alim and when that Mu'alim departed he left behind people who were given complete understanding of what was revealed so that they could continue the work of the departed Mu'alim. When Moses went to Sinai for 40 days he left his brother Aaron incharge for teaching and 'islah' of his people. He was only going to be gone for 40 days yet he left behind his brother as incharge who had been given the knowledge of the book also. So when a prophet could not leave his ummah for just 40 days without an authority over them, how is it that Prophet Mohammad, the last of the prophets, left his Ummah without someone to look after the teaching and advancement of his people?


Arshad wrote:

I am not a scholar, hence I cannot comment on the entire corpus of hadith literature. But from what I understand, there is much controversy within the texts, and again they are to be corroborated with the Qur'an in my opinion to be considered valid. Anything that gives a depiction of the Prophet, upon whom be peace, that does not fit or tie in with the character as portrayed in the Qur'an is to be rejected.


My response:

None of us here are scholars, unless they are hiding their credentials. Some have lot more knowledge than others but we are all learning about each other. I agree somewhat that hadith or anything for that matter needs to be corroborated with Quran but without someone with an absolute authority over the affairs of people and true and complete understanding of Quran how are we going to come to common terms. Even though all scholars agree with this statement of corroboration yet they differ in interpretations and therefore can not come to an agreement in the broader interest of uniting the Ummah. Allah in His infinite wisdom knew this and therefore created the institution of Ahl-e-Bayt for guidance of manking till the day of judgement. Muslims unfortunately have still not gotten further than the first hurdle of agreeing on an authority.

As for the need to reject hadith that does not do justice to the character of our prophet, I absolutely agree. Unfortunately hell will freeze over before we can get a consensus.


Arshad wrote:

You quote verse 4:59

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

I agree, that the ulil-amr need to be obeyed, but does not the above verse show that the ulil-amr can make a mistake? Otherwise what would you need to dispute or differ with? Referring it back to God and His Apostle is the one and same thing.


My response:

Let me ask you this. Who were the people charged with authority other than the Prophet during the lifetime of the Prophet? You are approaching this ayah from a very different angle than we Shi'ites. Yes you do have the right to follow the interpretation that makes better sense to you. But I don't see anywhere in this ayah where it says if you differ with the Ulil Amr refer it to Allah and His Apostle. It says "if ye differ in anything among yourselves". I understand it as if people have irreconcileable differences between each other then instead of fighting never ending wars they should refer it to Allah through His apostle and let him decide while he is still among them. After the Apostle such matters need to be referred to the Ulil Amr. Quran does not clarify who those Ulil Amr were going to be as the declaration was still some time away. Referring things back to God and His Apostle is one and the same thing, agreed, but 'Ita'at' of Ulil Amr is demanded by the same standard as asked for Allah and His Apostle. Could you dispute with the Prophet? That would negate your Iman. Similarly disputing with the Ulil Amr would land you in hot waters. Prophet is referred to have said that Haq is where Ali is. Allah has said in Quran that when a matter has been decided upon by Allah and His Prophet then any momin man or momina woman has no right to dispute or have their say in it whatsoever. So 'ita'at' of Ulil Amr is in absolute terms, no ifs and/or buts.


Arshad wrote:

The Imam may be part of the ahl-al-bayt, however everything must be corroborated against the Qur'an as I said above. My belief at the moment (since I had mentioned that I cannot comment on the entire corpus of hadith literature) is that when referring it to the Apostle, it refers primarily to adhering to the Qur'an, as that is what was brought to mankind through him. Then, the example brought by him can also be illustrated through what is generally accepted in the seera literature by the ummah as a whole.


My response:

To Shias Imam is the central and absolute authority appointed as the Ulil Amr. How can you have an authority over the Imam other than Allah and who would this authority be to corroborate the work of the Imam against the Quran and then decide if he is doing right or wrong. This means that there is another authority over and above Imam other than Allah and one who has not been certified by Allah as an authority over the Imam. You are disregarding every ayah in the Quran that points to the purification and appointment of Ahl-e-Bayt and Prophet himself has declared them as such on varioius occasions.

The above are just my views and I in no way expect you or anyone else to consider them as official Ismaili interpretation or stand. To each his own.
znanwalla wrote: Arshad says...."I agree, that the ulil-amr need to be obeyed, but does not the verse 4:59 show that the ulil-amr can make a mistake? Otherwise what would you need to dispute or differ with? Referring it back to God and His Apostle is the one and same thing..."

Did the Prophet make any mistakes? how do you know that he conveyed the quran to you in complete form and correctly? can you please let us know ! Was the Prophet also not the Olil Amr of his time and age?

Only the legitimate successors and the rightful Imams will be witnesses of their faithful followers and the unjust will accordingly be like "scattered locusts" when the trumpet is blown and as the quran says...

Haven't you read the famous ahadith of the Prophet? go and at least do some honest research first.

Those who are unjust leaders will not be able to intercede for their followers’ actions....because they are subject to greed, oratory, power, political inclinations and dishonesty and fallible also.

The Quran says: "None shall have the power of intercession, but such who has received permission (or promise) from (God), the Most Glorious" (19:87) and also:

" except he who bears witness of the truth and they (people) know (that)" (43:86).


So it all depends on who your "Olil Amr" is pal ? Now you cannot compare wasps versus caterpillars...nor can you make sweeping generalizations lumping them all together...that would be foolishness !

The Imam is the successor of the Prophet and the Vicar of God on earth. Obedience to him is obligatory.

Imam Jafar Sadik said: "We are the ones to whom God has made obedience obligatory.

The people will not prosper unless they recognized us and the people will not be excused if they are ignorant to us.

He who has recognized us is a believer and he who has denied us is an unbeliever, and he who has neither recognized nor denied us is, in error... unless he returns to the right guidance which God has made obligatory for him....And if he dies in a state of error, God will do with him what He wishes ..."

So for the most part this is the fate of those who have died without acknowledging and recognizing their Imam of the time...truly unfortunate !

The ever-presence of an Imam is imperative.

The Quranic verse, “If you should quarrel about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger” (4:59), necessitates the presence of an Imam physically after the Prophet, so that the believers may refer to him what they have quarrelled about.

Shaikh al-Mufid (d. 413/1022) writes in Awa’il al-maqalat (Tabriz, 1951, p. 35) that, “The Imams take the place of the prophets in enforcing judgments, seeing to the execution of the legal penalties, safeguarding the law and educating mankind.”


In addition, the Quran says, “And if when they had done injustice to themselves, they had but come to you and asked God’s forgiveness, and the Prophet had (also) asked forgiveness for them. Surely, they would have found God Forgiving, Merciful.” (4:64).

It indicates that God had even commanded the people to have recourse to the Prophet for the forgiveness of their sins and ask for forgiveness through him...but many of them turned away disdainfully...and averted their faces

The Quran also says, “And if two parties of the believers (mu’minin) fight with each other, make peace between them” (49:9).

Urwa narrates that once Zubayr quarrelled with a man from the Ansar because of a natural mountainous stream at al-Harra.

The Prophet said, “O’Zubayr! Irrigate your land and then let the water flow to your neighbour.”

The Ansar said, “O’Apostle of God! This is because Zubayr is your cousin?” The Prophet’s face became red in displeasure and said, “O’Zubayr! Irrigate your land and then withhold the water till it fills the land upto the walls and then let it flow to your neighbour.”

So the Prophet enabled Zubayr to take his full right after the Ansar provoked his anger. The Prophet however previously given an order that was in favour of both of them (Bukhari, 6:109).

On this occasion, the Quranic verse revealed: “But no! By your Lord! They do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge in all disputes between them” (4:65).

Now the Umma was told to hold fast to BOTH the precious things...they haven't done so !..."And verily WE have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving..."

The questions here arises, who will solve the local and international disputes of the Muslims in this age? It clearly means the necessity of the Imam on earth in every age.

Besides, the Quran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33).

It is the universal belief of all the Muslims that the followers of the Prophet are not going to be doomed with extirpation as was the case with the followers of other prophets.

They attribute two reasons for this privileged protection; first that the Prophet was the last of the prophets and if his followers were to be doomed to destruction, there would be no other apostle to raise another nation of believers.

And secondly that the Prophet is a Mercy to the whole world.

But on reading the above Quranic verse, one comes to the conclusion that the privilege is restricted only to the life time of the Prophet as it reads: “While you are among them.”

The Prophet is admittedly not among us at present, why then do we still enjoy the privilege?

The explanation of this is to be found in another verse: “And had there not been God averting some people’s (doom) by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which God’s name is much remembered” (22:40). ..Now they are the real Olil Amr pal !! Go and find them...even Abu Hurayra was told to go and find the Imam or live in the forest and eat vegetation but not to follow hypocrites !

This verse above makes it clear that there always exists in this world an infallible one through whose inherent auspiciousness this world exists.

This infallible one is no other than the Prophet’s progeny.

Ibn Hajar writes, “Inasmuch as the Prophet was a security for the inhabitants of this earth, the people of his house (ahl al-bayt) are likewise the securities.”

This is further corroborated by the hadith, “If the Imam were to be removed from this earth, the earth together with its inhabitants would have cleaved asunder.”

It implies that that the existence of an Imam in every age is necessary and indispensable.

Inasmuch as the extent of the obedience is not restricted, the verse should be treated as an injunction for an absolute and complete obedience. ...now don't go and follow any pimps and dicks and then claim they are fallible... we have a tradition from Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, who relates that the verse: “O ye! Who believe, obey God and obey the Apostle and those among you invested with authority” (4:59) was revealed, he asked the Prophet, “We know God and His Prophet, but who are these persons invested with authority?”

The Prophet said, “Ali and his descendants are invested with authority.”

In sum, the Imam of every age is the Hujjatullah (Sign of God), the Noorullah (Light of God) and (Epiphany) of God. He is Mansus (designated), Ma’sum (infallible) and Afdal an-na’s (the best of the mankind).

The Prophet brought the law to guide the men, and after him the Quranic revelation ceased and men are left with a law, which corresponds to the exoteric aspect of the revelation.

There then must come those who can interpret the inner meaning of the law and the esoteric content of the revelation.

In Islam, the door of prophecy closed with the Prophet. He was both the exoteric and esoteric source of the revelation, but in his function as revealer of Divine legislation he represented the exoteric aspect.

After him there must be those who inherited his esoteric function and whose duty is to expound the inner meaning of the Divine law.

Just as the function of prophecy, in as much as it concerns the bringing of Divine legislation, is called nabuwat, so is the function of interpreting its inner meaning to men and preserving a link with the source of revelation called walayah in Shi’ism....Now the mullahs and the muftis are not the real Olil Amr...get the point?

The Imam who fulfils the function of wilayah is the sustainer of the religion law and the guarantee of its continuation. ..and so he is the Infallible Olil Amr !

The Prophet brought a Divine law and then himself left the world. There are thus times when the world is without a prophet.

But the Imam is always present. The earth cannot be devoid of the presence of the Imam, whose duty is to interpret the religious science and the law to men, especially their inner meaning, and to guide men in the spiritual life and a hidden Imam serves no purpose and followers are left to depend on fallible Olil Amr, if you will !


Would a parent leave his children and go into hiding without offering a valid reason?

These are the same people who claim that the world would not survive without an Imam and yet they have neither seen their Imam nor heard from him in decades (for over a thousand plus years ).

Yet, we are not questioning them as it is none of our business....each man to his own...

There is a hadith of their own Imam which says who dies without knowing his Imam of the time, would die a death of Jahaliya.

This alone proves the need for an Imam who is present and apparent and one who creates relativity...so pal if you follow the rightful Imams the doubts concerning the prospects of erros and omissions will dissipate....

You have doubts because in reality you do not have an Olil Amr though you claim you have just the way you wave your texts at the world and say, oh ! it is the Quran...pathetic indeed huh?
My intent was not to get into debating on what to follow after the Qur'an, for example quoting hadiths, ulema which have differing views, etc, as I said that the Qur'an is flawless and the latter sources have some human intervention, as I have stated before.

Right now, I would like you read the Qur'an, and tell me what you find lacking in it for guidance. Allah says that it is clear, easy to understand and a guidance for mankind. I would like you to give me specific examples of ayahs which you would have trouble implementing in your everyday life. If you cannot quote many, it proves that the clear verses are the foundation of the Book (as stated by Allah Himself) which most of mankind can implement into their everyday lives. This does not by any means say that you do not need any help in interpreting the allegorical verses, rather it serves to point out that the Qur'an can be, and is guidance for all individuals.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Arshad et al,

Can there be anything lacking in the Book of Allah? what a silly question to ask...now are your interpolated texts also the same Quran of Allah simply because you self-righteous people have called it "quran" ? now that is then the crux of the issue....

"It is reported that the Holy Prophet said to Mawlana Ali: "You are the patron of this ummat and its Dhu'l-Qarnayn." (al-Majalisu'l-Mu'ayyadiyyah, I. p 335).

We are aware of the fact that every verse and every sound Hadith which is about Mawlana Ali, is also related to the Imam of every age.

Because the light of Ali, which is the light of God and the Prophet, continues in the holy chain of Imamat and nurtures the people spiritually and intellectually.

This patron (i.e., the Holy Imam), who has been appointed by God and the Prophet, is always present in this world. (Source: Manifestations of Wisdom, p. 33).

Now why would Prophet Muhammad, who came with a universal message for all nations, crystallize his life's work by commanding his followers to hold on to his traditions (sunnah) when everywhere in the Quran man has been exhorted to seek knowledge, to travel even to China to seek knowledge, to reflect, to read, to calculate, to seek the bounty of your Lord*, etc. . .

Prophet Muhammad was very modern in his outlook in those days where he declared equality of women, established ethics in everyday life, laws to protect slaves, that everyone was equal before God and the rich were not favored and so on.

He was acutely aware of changing times and was passing out laws as the situation demanded at that time.

In fact, the whole reason for God to send another Prophet to the world was that the others had misunderstood His message and divided themselves into sects, and were attributing human qualities to God, were worshipping idols of their making or had made their God a racial God.

"It is said in verse (9:105): "And said: Work: Soon will God observe your work and His Messenger and the mu'mins."

According to Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, here by mu'mins are meant the Imams (Da'aimu'l-Islam, I. p. 21)."
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

It appears that you did not read the entire thread. Below is a pertinent excerpt.

A STRANGE AND AMAZING FACT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT IN THE BOOK THAT HAZARAT ALI WAS SHRI VISHNU IN HIS TENTH AVTAR, AND ALSO STRANGE AND AMAZING THAT ALL THE PREVIOUS NINE AVTAARS OF SHRI VISHNU WERE IN FACT THOSE OF HAZARAT ALI. THIS IMPORTANT FACT IS NOT MENTIONED IN ANY OF THE OTHER SCRIPTURES OF THE WORLD.

Sir Sultan Mohammad Shah proved in the court that he was the sole authority to accept the tributes from his followers as he was the bearer of the "NOOR" of Imamat or "NOOR" of Ali. He had absolute authority over the Ismaili Muslims all over the world.
Kmaherali, it appears that you don’t read what I write to you carefully enough. All of the above is nothing but statements without any proof. All it says is that Ali is Vishnu, and all the previous Avatars were Ali and that your imam is the bearer of the ‘noor of imamat and of Ali,’ and etc. But why should I accept all of this? What proof do you have for all these statements? You claim that the court proved your imam to be the manifestation of God’s Word or the bearer of the ‘noor’, etc, and I ask you now to prove that to me. Show me exactly how these things were proved, as you claim they were, in court. Don’t simply give me articles with a bunch of statements. That establishes nothing. Statements themselves are not proofs for the those statements; they are simply statements, nothing more.
Admin
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:37 am
Contact:

Post by Admin »

In matter of FAITH, the only proof is FAITH. This is a very old debate.

No one can really <prove> any matter of faith: from God's existence to accountability of the soul, it all comes to Faith.

Trying to understand each person's interpretation from his own point of view is what matters. And respecting freedom and the boundaries of each person is appreciated on this web site.

I hope this is clear to all.

Admin
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:Arshad et al,

Can there be anything lacking in the Book of Allah? what a silly question to ask...now are your interpolated texts also the same Quran of Allah simply because you self-righteous people have called it "quran" ? now that is then the crux of the issue....

"It is reported that the Holy Prophet said to Mawlana Ali: "You are the patron of this ummat and its Dhu'l-Qarnayn." (al-Majalisu'l-Mu'ayyadiyyah, I. p 335).

We are aware of the fact that every verse and every sound Hadith which is about Mawlana Ali, is also related to the Imam of every age.

Because the light of Ali, which is the light of God and the Prophet, continues in the holy chain of Imamat and nurtures the people spiritually and intellectually.

This patron (i.e., the Holy Imam), who has been appointed by God and the Prophet, is always present in this world. (Source: Manifestations of Wisdom, p. 33).

Now why would Prophet Muhammad, who came with a universal message for all nations, crystallize his life's work by commanding his followers to hold on to his traditions (sunnah) when everywhere in the Quran man has been exhorted to seek knowledge, to travel even to China to seek knowledge, to reflect, to read, to calculate, to seek the bounty of your Lord*, etc. . .

Prophet Muhammad was very modern in his outlook in those days where he declared equality of women, established ethics in everyday life, laws to protect slaves, that everyone was equal before God and the rich were not favored and so on.

He was acutely aware of changing times and was passing out laws as the situation demanded at that time.

In fact, the whole reason for God to send another Prophet to the world was that the others had misunderstood His message and divided themselves into sects, and were attributing human qualities to God, were worshipping idols of their making or had made their God a racial God.

"It is said in verse (9:105): "And said: Work: Soon will God observe your work and His Messenger and the mu'mins."

According to Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, here by mu'mins are meant the Imams (Da'aimu'l-Islam, I. p. 21)."
Nice way to coward out of the challenge posed.
kmaherali
Posts: 25716
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote:Show me exactly how these things were proved, as you claim they were, in court. Don’t simply give me articles with a bunch of statements. That establishes nothing. Statements themselves are not proofs for the those statements; they are simply statements, nothing more.
The court proceedings are for public records and they can be accessed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/hajibibi.html

The point is that there must have been enough proof for the court to come up with the judgement. Otherwise as the Admin says it is a personal matter. You can choose to disagree with my basis which you are entitled to.
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

The court proceedings are for public records and they can be accessed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/hajibibi.html
I'm not going to read the entirety of the court proceedings and try to analyze it and look for what I want. That would take to long and I don't have the time. Perhaps I can do that someother day...

For now, and I presume that you have read the whole thing since your so sure of the truth of what it contains, I ask you to provide the evidence that the court proceedings have brought forth with regards the question of your imam being the manifestation of God's Word. Provide for me everything that is says concerning this question.
The point is that there must have been enough proof for the court to come up with the judgement.
Provide these proofs to me. Don't just take it for granted that they must of provided them since they came up with certain judgments in favour of your imam. Surely you must have read the text, came across the evidence they've provided, and then concluded that they a right. If so, then provide this evidence for me. I want to be convinced just like you.
Otherwise as the Admin says it is a personal matter. You can choose to disagree with my basis which you are entitled to
What is a personal matter? I disagree with your belief (regarding the incomplete nature of the Qur'an) because it is baseless. And I'm trying to show you, and every other Ismaili who holds such a belief, not only how baseless it really is but also how it's a belief that goes against you.
From_Alamut
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am

Post by From_Alamut »

binom wrote:
It appears that you did not read the entire thread. Below is a pertinent excerpt.

A STRANGE AND AMAZING FACT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT IN THE BOOK THAT HAZARAT ALI WAS SHRI VISHNU IN HIS TENTH AVTAR, AND ALSO STRANGE AND AMAZING THAT ALL THE PREVIOUS NINE AVTAARS OF SHRI VISHNU WERE IN FACT THOSE OF HAZARAT ALI. THIS IMPORTANT FACT IS NOT MENTIONED IN ANY OF THE OTHER SCRIPTURES OF THE WORLD.

Sir Sultan Mohammad Shah proved in the court that he was the sole authority to accept the tributes from his followers as he was the bearer of the "NOOR" of Imamat or "NOOR" of Ali. He had absolute authority over the Ismaili Muslims all over the world.
Kmaherali, it appears that you don’t read what I write to you carefully enough. All of the above is nothing but statements without any proof. All it says is that Ali is Vishnu, and all the previous Avatars were Ali and that your imam is the bearer of the ‘noor of imamat and of Ali,’ and etc. But why should I accept all of this? What proof do you have for all these statements? You claim that the court proved your imam to be the manifestation of God’s Word or the bearer of the ‘noor’, etc, and I ask you now to prove that to me. Show me exactly how these things were proved, as you claim they were, in court. Don’t simply give me articles with a bunch of statements. That establishes nothing. Statements themselves are not proofs for the those statements; they are simply statements, nothing more.
To Binom

You have been asking Kmaherali brother various times to proof you the existing of the Imammat and its authority, but Kmaherali proofs to you enough then you disagree, all you are looking for is a hardcore proof with its reference. I would suggest you to please read this book "Early Shia Thought".(From page 58-125) It is the teachings of our preview Beloved Khudavan Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (Peace be upon him and his progeny). Once you read this book, then Inshallah you will have all your question answers. Our Beloved Imam proves the existing and it authority of the Imam of the Ages through various sources such as Quran, Hadith,progeny of the Prophet, history, etc......

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir was one of the most erudite Muslims of his age and played a significant role in the history of early Islam. At once a versatile leader and scholar, he was also an authority on the exegesis of the Qur'an, the traditions of the Prophet, and all matters relating to the rites, rituals, and practice of Islam. Using hitherto largely ignored Shi'i sources, Arzina R. Lalani explores al-Baqir's pivotal contributions to Islamic thought in its early formative period, contributions that were powerfully to affect developments in Shi'a law, theology, and religious practice. This study gives particular attention to al-Baqir's vital role in the formulation of the function and nature of the self.

About author: Arzina R. Lalani received her PhD from the University of Edinburgh and is currently a Research Associate at The Inshtitute of Ismaili Studies, London. A specialist in early Shia studies, she has previsouly taught Hadith Literature at Cambridge University.

The Persian translation of this book recieved the prestigious Kitab Sal-e Vilayat book award from the Ministry of Culture of the Islamic Republic of Iran in 2002.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_person.asp?ID=61&type=auth
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote:

Provide these proofs to me. Don't just take it for granted that they must of provided them since they came up with certain judgments in favour of your imam. Surely you must have read the text, came across the evidence they've provided, and then concluded that they a right. If so, then provide this evidence for me. I want to be convinced just like you.
Too bad if you do not have time to read it. If the court judgement does not convince you, then I do not think anything else will. You are not worth the effort.
binom wrote:
What is a personal matter? I disagree with your belief (regarding the incomplete nature of the Qur'an) because it is baseless. And I'm trying to show you, and every other Ismaili who holds such a belief, not only how baseless it really is but also how it's a belief that goes against you.[/quote}

The Quran and Hadith are a bunch of statements as well and they are not going to result in absolute proof. The statements that I have provided regarding the judgement are as valid as those of the Quran and Hadith. The rest is all a matter of faith. The point being made is that Imamat can be 'proven' by other means besides the Quran and Hadith. Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.
ShamsB
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Post by ShamsB »

kmaherali wrote:
binom wrote:

Provide these proofs to me. Don't just take it for granted that they must of provided them since they came up with certain judgments in favour of your imam. Surely you must have read the text, came across the evidence they've provided, and then concluded that they a right. If so, then provide this evidence for me. I want to be convinced just like you.
Too bad if you do not have time to read it. If the court judgement does not convince you, then I do not think anything else will. You are not worth the effort.
binom wrote:
What is a personal matter? I disagree with your belief (regarding the incomplete nature of the Qur'an) because it is baseless. And I'm trying to show you, and every other Ismaili who holds such a belief, not only how baseless it really is but also how it's a belief that goes against you.[/quote}

The Quran and Hadith are a bunch of statements as well and they are not going to result in absolute proof. The statements that I have provided regarding the judgement are as valid as those of the Quran and Hadith. The rest is all a matter of faith. The point being made is that Imamat can be 'proven' by other means besides the Quran and Hadith. Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.
well said...this seems to be someone hell bent on - proving all other paths except his own wrong - he/she doesn't seem to notice that we are of the live and let live disposition. Our faith allows for individual interpretations either following the Imam or another Madhab - but our "learned" friend can not even articulate what Madhab he/she follows.

Shams
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

binom and arshad,

You haven't answered one simple question of mine....is your issue with the Imamat in general? or is it only with the Ismaili Imamat? why are you unwilling to answer? you are simply going round and round in circles chasing your own tail....and you want us to chase yours...it does not work that way...so hold yourselves out first in good faith...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzYEqnGLjUs

Al–Mu’ayyad fi’l–Din al–Shirazi
The Pure Progeny

Peace be upon the pure progeny,
and welcome to their resplendent lights.

I begin with peace upon Adam from whom
came all mankind, whether nomadic or sedentary.

Peace be upon the one who with his staff
overpowered the unbelievers of the tyrant Pharaoh.

Peace be upon Jesus, the Holy Spirit,
who by his coming, bestowed honor on Nazareth.

Peace be upon Muhammad, the chosen,
the one who intercedes in the hereafter.

Peace be upon Ali, the beloved,
and those descended from him, the radiant stars.

Peace be upon you, O Sovereign Lord
of Cairo, and all their gain abides with you.

I sacrifice my soul to Mustansir,
who is supported by the legions of heaven.

I bear witness that it is your blessed face
which illumines the faces of your followers.

You are the custodian of the fountain of life,
and may the fountain of your enemies perish!
__________________Adopted by Simerg
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

The transmission of the message of God has been a continuous link since Prophet Adam as Allah says that He created man and knows the promptings of his soul* and therefore sent a living guide during every age*.

Even though scriptural revelation ended with Prophet Muhammad*, the Prophet appointed his successor, like all others Prophets before him.

He declared on return from his farewell pilgrimage in 632 A.C. that he was leaving behind two things of surpassing importance, the Quran and his progeny (Ahlul Bayt, Itrat).

Prophet Muhammad had declared to the people what had been ordained by Almighty God.

In the Scriptures Abraham was promised that his progeny would we made leaders of a great nation.

By appointing Hazrat Ali as his successor, Prophet Muhammad was completing his covenant by ensuring that his grandchildren, Hassan and Hussain would succeed after Ali, carrying the blood of Muhammad through his daughter, Fatima taz-Zahra, who married Hazrat Ali.

And therefore fulfilling the covenant Allah made with Abraham and Ishmael that their progeny would live through all ages, an eternal covenant, the Light of Allah Genesis 12:1-12.3 and 17:7

Mowlana Jafar as Sadiq
5th Imam - (125 A.H. -148 A.H.)


Early Life:

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, the son of Imam Muhammad al Baqir, was born in Medina in 83 A.H., during the Caliphate of the Ummayyad Caliph, Abdul Malik.

His mother was known as Umme Farwa; she was the grand daughter of the first Caliph Abu Bakr.

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq succeeded to the throne of Imamat in 125 A.H., during the time of the 11th Ummayyad Caliph, Walid the Second.

The Abbasid Caliphate:

During his lifetime, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq saw many important events happen. He saw the revolts of Zayd and Abu Mansur; he watched the development of Abbasid propaganda. It was during his lifetime that the Ummayyad Government was overthrown by the Abbasids.

A Learned Imam:

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was a learned Imam. He was a master of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) and Quranic interpretation.

He was supposed to be the real founder of Shiism; even the Sunni scholars and learned men held him in high regard.

Abu Hanifa and Malik ibn Anas, the two famous Imams of Sunni laws, were counted among his pupils.

They used Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq's teachings and traditions in their works and respected the Imam.

The famous scientist Jabir bin Hayyan was also the Imam's pupil. His many volumes are supposed to be based on thousands of pages written by the Imam himself, which unfortunately, have not been preserved to this day.

Ikhwan as-Safa (The Brethern of Purity):

A society called Ikhwan as-Safa was formed in the time of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. It began its political and intellectual activities during his lifetime.

The society was influenced by Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq and in turn, influenced his own teachings.

Note: It is not certain that the society of Ikhwan as-.Safa was formed during the time of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq.

Shia Doctrine:

The process of development of Shia doctrine, which began in the time of Imam al-Baqir, was continued by Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq. He received the support of able Dai's like Abdul Khattab and Maymun al-Qaddah.


So long Imam as Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq's first wife lived, he followed the example of Prophet Muhammad with Hazrat Khadija and married no other.

For 20 years, he had no sons except Hazrat Ismail and Hazrat Abdullah. After Fatima's (his first wife) death he married again and had other children - 7 in all.

Death of the Imam:

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq died in 148 A.H., during the reign of the second Abbasid Caliph Mansur and was buried in the "Baqia" cemetery. He lived for 65 years and was Imam for 23 years.

The Ithna Asharis:

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq was followed by his son Imam Ismail to the throne of Imamat; although, after the death of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, a section of the Shia, following the Imamat of Hazrat Musa al-Kazim, and separated.

They are known as the Ithna Asharis (Twelvers). They are so called because the line of their Imams came to an end with their 12th Imam Mahdi, who they say went into Ghaib (hiding) in a cave and will return to them , in due time.

5th IMAM

MOWLANA JA'FAR AS-SADIQ

|

___________________|____________________

| |

| |

6th IMAM ISMAIL 7th IMAM MUSA AL KAZIM

(Ismailis) |

| 8th IMAM ALI BIN MUSA

| |

7th IMAM 9th IMAM MUHAMMED TAQI

MUHAMMAD BIN ISMAIL |

| 10th IMAM ALI NAQI

| |

| 11th IMAM HASAN ASGARI

| |

| 12th IMAM MUHAMMED MAHDI

| |

| (Ithna Asharis - Twelvers)

|

49th IMAM

SHAH KARIM AL-HUSAYNI
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

In Ehtijaj-e-Tabrasi, which is among the most reliable books of the Shias a saying of the ninth Imam, Mohammad bin Ali bin Musa, has been reproduced which says about the Last Imam that:

“One of the unique things about him will be that his birth will take place secretly and people will not know about it and he will not be visible to people. From the four corners of the world three hundred and thirteen companions will gather round him, exactly equal to the number of Muslims who fought in the Battle of Badr. When 313 earnest and devoted persons will collect round him, God will reveal the Imam i.e., he will come out of the cave and begin his mission....."

It is significant that the appearance of the Absent Imam having not taken place as yet in light of the saying of Imam Mohammad bin Ali bin Musa, would it then safe to assume that during all these eleven hundred and fifty years since 260 A.H., 313 truthful and sincere Shias have not been available who could stand up for their Absent Imam, otherwise he would have, surely, emerged from the cave.

It is worth asking whether Shia leaders and theologians like Khomeini, also, hold the same view or not....

After the disappearance of the Absent Imam (Mehdi), some resourceful Shias had succeeded in convincing the people that they visited the Absent Imam in utter secrecy and were, so to speak, his agents and emissaries.

Four persons had made this claim one after the other, the last being Ali bin Mohammad Samiri who died in 329 A.H.

The simple-minded Shias used to send their petitions and letters through them to the Absent Imam along with costly gifts, and these people used to bring back the letters of the Imam in reply bearing his seal.

All this was done in a most clandestine manner.

As for the truth or correctness of the whole thing, anyone with a little commonsense will conclude that it was a ruse played by a few artful persons to deceive the people.

But, according to mainstream Shias, and their Ulemaa and Mujtahids, the letters purporting to be of the Absent Imam are his sayings and religious pronouncements and fiats, and have been collected, as such in their books of traditions.

A collection of them can, also, be seen in the concluding pages of Ehtijaj-e-Tabrasi.

"Imam" Khomeini, too, has mentioned them as ultimate religious proof and argument and employed them in support of his own theory of Wilayat-e-Faquik.

This short period when communication with the Imam was possible is called Ghaibat-e-Sughra or the Minor Absence.

The business of emissaries ended when it came into the knowledge of the government and steps were taken to apprehend the persons who were, thus, deceiving the people.

Thereafter, the game was abandoned, and it was proclaimed that the period of the Minor Absence had ended and that of the Major Absence had begun, and now, no contact could be established with the Absent Imam till his appearance nor could anyone approach him. Nothing could be done then except to wait for his return.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

...." Lo! WE have given thee abundance...Lo! it is thy insulter (and not thou) who is without POSTERITY.." (Sura al Kawthar).

"And for whom Allah hath not appointed Light, for him there is no Light" (Sura al Nur)

" And they say we believe in Allah and the prophet and we obey, then after that a faction of them turn away. Such are NOT the believers" ( Sura al Nur)


Even God is lamenting over such folks :

" Is there in their hearts a disease or do they have doubts or fears, lest Allah and His prophet should wrong them in Judgment?" .

How can miscreants point a mote in anyone's eye when they have the beam in their own eyes?

The majority are not impressed by the poisoned rhetoric and distorted garbage, if I may say so.

In case people haven't heard this, many of the younger generation of Muslims are kind of dis-illusioned with their own secular and religious leaders (who are highly politicized) and so they are already looking for a figurehead or even guidance and so these guys are actually helping them reach a decision quickly because when anyone is vehemently attacked and maligned, people begin to research and this takes them towards the Aga Khan.

The Aga Khan has spoken about the interpretation of the faith and the writings are on the wall and those with sincerity are able to easily grasp onto, what the Aga Khan is saying.

It is thus matter of time .....wait to see the "snowball effect".....hey presto ! who knows what the future holds, eh?

Just as the waves cannot exist for themselves and are ever a part of the heaving surface of the ocean, so are the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt, who do not exist except in the essence and experience of Allah's "Pillars" in regards to HIS Oneness.

Muslims live under the tyranny of rulers like those of Iran and Saudi Arabia who have used the religion of Islam as a tool to secure absolute power, and to trample all over the human rights of their citizens.

Barely a day goes by without news of gross violations of human
rights of Muslims living in so-called Islamic countries. Whether it is
honour killings of sisters and mothers or the harassment of gays and
calls for their death; whether it is imprisonment of political opponents or attacks on minorities

These tyrannical despots rule their populations with a sense of entitlement that they believe is their God-given right, and millions suffer under their tutelage.

I urge you to not fall for the charm offensive of those who falsely claim to speak on behalf of Muslims and Islam. They do not, and their record speaks for itself.

While the Supreme Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran claims he
is answerable only to Allah, the King of Saudi Arabia claims to rule in
God’s name.

The result for the ordinary Muslim is the same: the complete absence of human dignity.

Why should Muslims only enjoy human rights and freedom of expression to discuss their own religion where they live as minorities, yet never be able to do so where they form a majority?

Today the same people who have smashed human rights with an iron
fist where they govern, and oppress Muslims under their rule in the name of Islam , have the audacity to question about an Imam who is not only respected world wide but is actually received with chants of Nur e Rasoolillah and amidst recitations of Holy Quran by the very same people who call some of these people "terrorists".

People who were not insulted or offended when the Saudis demolished
the Prophet's 1400-year-old House in Mecca, but who ran wild
at the sight of Danish cartoons, can at best be described as men who
have got their priorities wrong, and at worst as hypocrites.

Those who behead people in public and stone women to death, practise
apartheid in their Kingdom and wave the sword of apostasy over the
heads of their fellow Muslim critics, should be the last people to
speak on behalf of Islam. Too many Muslims have fallen victim
to their lies for they only wish to control and propagate their man-made
interpolations and so called "Islamic" shariah laws and yet they oppose any scrutiny of the very same shariah laws that sanction slavery, racism, misogyny and homophobia ...they are just jokers, if I may say so and worthless !
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Our sweet Imam talks to his spiritual children, young and old in loving manner, whereas theirs admonish the youth!

Our Imam never undermines his youth or his Jamat.

in contrast their so called Imams and theologians say:

“If, God forbid, you were not to reform yourselves in the centre of learning, and you were not to realize spiritual ideals, then-may Allah protect us-everywhere you went, people would be perverted, and you would have given them a low opinion of Islam and of the clergy.”

This is the difference between a fallible theologian adorning the garb and the real Imam !

With the rise of such emotional theologians came the
low opinion of Islam

Islam fell because of the subsequent inferior treatment of women; promotion of hatred against Jews, Christians and other faiths.... Even minorities were scared to practice their faith openly....absolutely unislamic ethics....

A heinous “Holier than Thou” attitude is what one finds in their rhetoric.

Their clergy is condemning the youth and pre-judging them, their morals and spirituality whilst they themselves are equally susceptible and flawed. ...clear signs of fallibility !

What a contrast between the teaching of our Beloved Imam and the others? Our Imam's profundity and eloquence and wisdom is unmatched - there is no comparison !

Frankly do they really practice what they preach? some of these clerics are insane with hatred and jealousy.

They have made their countries a dictatorship and/or a police state ...all in the name of islam ! how naive ?

Now, tell me why would I or anyone else be impressed with such unjust leaders who teach hatred, promote rape of young girls under the guise of muta and Urfi marriages? And they kill a lot of people ...are thirsty of the muslim blood. What have they learnt from such peole ? what can anyone else learn? except perhaps misunderstand Islam and that is why islam is at cross roads today !

The fact is that their theologians and unjust mullahs and Imams cannot teach us anything about our faith. We have much better sources than them and so let them first end the slave-like conditions of dark skinned Muslims in their own countries before spreading their failed ideology elsewhere...
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

Too bad if you do not have time to read it. If the court judgement does not convince you, then I do not think anything else will. You are not worth the effort.
I’m starting to wonder how exactly the court judgment has convinced you. Why aren’t you willing to bring out the relevant passages? If you read the text, it should not be a problem for you. Every time I bring questions to you all you seem to do is provide me with various references and tell me to read them and find the answers therein. I already did this with the articles you previously posted, and concluded that they contained nothing. I showed this to you. Now be generous and kind enough to save me the trouble of going through this text by bringing forth, since I’m sure you’ve read it, what you think it says with regards to the question at hand.
The Quran and Hadith are a bunch of statements as well and they are not going to result in absolute proof.
They are a bunch of statements only if you’re not a Muslim. Otherwise, it is absurd that you, as a Muslim, say something like this. As a Muslim, as someone who accepts the Islamic revelation, you’re wrong in saying that they are just simply statements and don’t constitute proof of your imam. I’ll even demonstrate to you the falseness of your view. Consider the following:

If is demanded of you: what is the proof for the authority of the Imamat of your imam i.e. Ali (as) without reference to the Qur’an or hadith?

And (1) if you answer by saying: the proof is Vishnu is Ali and all the Avatars were Ali, he possesses the ‘noor’, the court says what I claim him to be is true, and etc.

The first thing you’ll be asked is for proof of these claims i.e. how you come to the conclusion that he is Vishnu, the evidence that the court presented, etc, and if you aren’t able to provide any, then these things that you’ve said become nothing but empty statements.

(2) If, however, you answer: the proof is that the Qur’an says ….. And the hadith say ….

And provide the various proofs that Shi’is generally provide for the successership of Ali(as), I can no longer ask for any further proof since these proofs you’ve provided are directly related to the question we began with. Moreover, they are from the Qur’an and hadith, which we both (at least the first), as Muslims, accept as authoritative. They are therefore not simply statements anymore. Now I might ask: what is the proof that the Qur’an and hadith say this? And I’m sure you can provide me with that. However, what I can’t ask, as a Muslim, is what is the proof that what the Qur’an and hadith say is correct since I accept them as authoritative beforehand. Now if you deny the authority of the Qur’an altogether, which you do, and say that it’s not authoritative for you without your imam, you again run into the previous problem i.e. you haven’t proved your imam yet to consider him as authoritative. This is one of the points I keep trying to get you to see.

In any case, in both arguments we commit an error known as the bare assertion fallacy by assuming the premise in the argument to be true merely because it says they’re so. But only in the second case is it not so problematic since we must, as Muslims, accept the Qur’an (and hadith) as authoritative apriori. To break down what I’m trying to say to you even further, consider the arguments in their syllogistic form,

In case 1 your argument is:

P1: The article says that a Hindu man says Ali is Vishnu, the bearer of the noor, etc.
P2: The same article says this is true.
C: Therefore, Ali is Vishnu, the bearer of the noor, etc.

Or alternatively,

P1: The court says that the Aga Khan is the manifestation of God’s Word.
P2: The court says that this is true.
C: Therefore, the Aga Khan is the manifestation of God’s Word.

Do you see the flaw in this argument? Unless you provide me with how they’ve established him to be Vishnu, the bearer of the ‘noor’, or the manifestation of God’s Word, without reference to the Qur’an as I demand, then all you have done is uttered nothing but empty statements. You must do this since to me the article or the court is not authoritative and I will not accept what they say without evidence. You, on the other hand, seem to accept what articles or courts say without any proof. The reason for this, I believe, is because you have already accepted the authority and proof of the Imamat of your imam apriori. I’m wondering how you have come to accept it though. Is it solely because of what articles or courts say about him? If so, then if some article or a court proceeding made statements to the effect that the Aga Khan is not the bearer of the ‘noor’ or Vishnu, etc, would you accept what they say? If not, why not? Would you demand proof from them for the statements they’ve made? If so, why not do that for the statements articles and courts make that are in his favor?

In case 2 your argument is:

P1: The Qur’an and hadith say that Ali is the successor of the Prophet (saw).
P2: The Qur’an and hadith say this is true.
C: Therefore, Ali is the successor of the Prophet (saw).

Even though it’s flawed from the point of view of a non-Muslim, this argument cannot but be valid from our point of view; that is to say, only on the condition that we, as Muslims, accept the authority of the Qur’an.
The statements that I have provided regarding the judgement are as valid as those of the Quran and Hadith.
No they’re not as valid as the Qur’an and hadith. They might be valid to you but they’re certainly not valid to anyone who won’t accept them without any sort of justification. Why aren’t non-Quranic and non-hadith statements that are against your imam being the bearer of the ‘noor’, etc, valid to you?
The rest is all a matter of faith.
Faith does not necessarily mean blind faith. I think that you think it does; your apparent belief in your imam seems to indicate this.
The point being made is that Imamat can be 'proven' by other means besides the Quran and Hadith.
You’ve yet to prove this.
Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I have no problem with that.
kandani
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:55 am

Ulu'l-Amr

Post by kandani »

Dear Arshad1988

Your interpretation of the verse 4:59 about the authority of the Ulu'l-Amr is somewhat flawed. Please look at the verse again:

“O you who have faith! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and the holders of the [divine] authority among you (uli’l amr min kum). If you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for interpretation (tawil).”
- Holy Quran 4:59

Please note that the verse as TWO commands and THREE authority figures.

Command #1 = "Obey Allah"
Command #2 = "Obey the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr"

You must see that the command to obey the Messenger is the SAME as the command to obey the Ulu'l-Amr. God has used the same command "obey" for both of them.

This means that the authority of the Ulu'l-Amr is on par and at the same rank as the authority of the Messenger because the Qur'an issued the same command to obey both of them.

Now the authority of the Prophet, being directly vested in him by God Himself, is absolute and cannot be questioned nor disputed:

“The Prophet has a greater authority (awla) over the believers than their own souls/selves (anfusihim).”
- Holy Quran 33:6

And based on 4:59, the Ulu'l-Amr possess the same authority as the Messenger and therefore, the Ulu'l-Amr CANNOT BE DISPUTED.

Now, I am aware that you point to the last part of the verse: "If you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger" and you think this means that the Ulu'l-Amr can be questioned.

But this interpretation is inaccurate because:

1. The only thing that the people can differ on (since they cannot differ against the Ulu'l-Amr's commands) is the IDENTITY of the Ulu'l-Amr. For this, they must seek the guidance of God and His Messenger. The hadiths of the Prophet recorded in BOTH Sunni and Shi'a books indicate that Imam 'Ali was the Ulu'l-Amr at the time of the Prophet.

2. You read this verse and then conclude that the instructions of the Ulu'l-Amr, being the Imam, must be compared to the Qur'an. However, 4:59 says "refer to God and the Messenger". The Qur'an is NOT identical with God nor is it identical with the Messenger himself, thus, referring to the Qur'an alone is insufficient.

3. If you continue reading in Surah 4, some verses talk about referring disagreements and they state:

“If they had only REFERRED it to the Messenger and the ULI'L-AMR among them, then those among them who can derive knowledge would have known it.”
- Holy Quran 4:83

Therefore, any disagreements within the community of believers must be referred to the Messenger and the Ulu'l-Amr and after the Messenger, the Ulu'l-Amr alone fulfill this verse because only they have the same level of authority as the Messenger himself.
rizwan_78
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:56 pm

Post by rizwan_78 »

binom wrote:
Faith does not necessarily mean blind faith. I think that you think it does; your apparent belief in your imam seems to indicate this.
The point being made is that Imamat can be 'proven' by other means besides the Quran and Hadith.
You’ve yet to prove this.
Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I have no problem with that.
Binom,

This is like asking any muslim to provide proof that the Quran is the Word of Allah, or that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the the Messenger of Allah, that is without using references to Quran or Hadith. Can you do that? I mean, its ridiculous you are asking this of us.

If you ask me, your faith is even blinder because you have accepted Islam without proof that the Prophet really existed. For us Ismailis, we have LIVING proof that yes, the Prophet (pbuh) existed and he revealed to the people the Glorious Message of Allah. Our Imam is the hujjat (proof) of Allah and it is by him only that we can understand the Word of God. Let me give you an analogy... If the any random person was to tell you that you have cancer, would you believe them? But if a doctor was to tell you that you have cancer, it would make things different right? Same concept...Imam is the descendant of the Prophet, so he has all the knowledge of the Quran that was passed down from generation to generation.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

binom,

Did you do a DNA sample test to establish your own geneology? better do that Sir...how do we then know your father is indeed your father? why would you simply want to accept and believe what your mother told you? how do we know that she did not lie to you?

Pagans will not understand the level KM is talking about...just because you know a bit of english does not mean you know anything....

Even before the advent of the Biblical Adam, there existed and flourished a civilzation on the soil of the Indian sub continent...it existed under other divinely inspired sages and saints and if one goes still further back in time, there was nothing but just "aquatic life".....and Allah's throne was on the water ! Quran confirms this too.....

Creation is not as old as Adam only...it is much older than that pal...and there have been many more "Adams" before the Biblical Adam.....Adam in arabic simply means something made of clay and water...and so there have been "Adams" of each time and era...and we all have "Adams' of our own time and age...so back back and you will realize that in every age there has been a living guide present to show the 'sirat"...in every age humanities has been emphsasized which somehow is absent from your dictionaries....your salat without action becomes pride and bears no desired fruits...that is why we are still so behind and backward and dependant on the western world....frankly if you you had been reading the quran and following the Prophet's tradition (as for the most part what you follow is the tradition of the ssassin persians and zorastrians), Islam would not be in such turbulence...the quran and the scriptures and the sermonds talked about the "Big Bang"....the concept of Islam is not just 1400 years old...Islam means the submission to the Will of Allah...the concepts did exist before too....

Nizari Isma‘ili Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salaam:

“Know that this Imamate is a reality [which] will never cease, change
or be altered. It will continue forever to be transmitted through the
progeny of (mawalina). It will never leave them, whether in form, meaning or reality.” - Imam Hasan ‘ala dhikrihi al-salaam,


And don't argue too much over the Haji Bibi case....if you are interested then go and find the transcripts and read them or ask your Imam maherally to give you a copy...it is clear as crystal...she and her goons were defeated by the Aga Khan 111 publicly just the way Mihir Boze was brought to his knees by the Aga Khan 1V...

If Maherally is still barking then this is only because of the generosity of our Imam who has tied our hands....otherwise is just an ant, if you will...
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

binom,

The copy of the Text or narration which you are holding is a "Variant Version" and Muslim philologists do recognize this fact....

If you try and retrace the history of the text you have and begin to understand the variant versions circulating, you will start shivering as you really then have nothing to talk about....you are saying to KM that he is making empty statements....I think it is the other way around Sir !

The Holy Quran of Allah is not with you ! No Imam ! then no Quran ! take it or leave it ! I do not have to convince anyone..each man to his own !

Now I ask you "which one"? Which version of the Text or the Narration are you boasting about to KM ? the version approved in Tehran? or the one in Saudi? or maybe the one in Pakistan? which one?

God sent only one Quran - the original - as revealed to Muhamad SAW and which is with his own Itrat... and NOT as compiled and put together by the scribes and companions of your ancestors....

I hope it is not the version approved by the University of Tora Bora? all those who follow that version are born again retards with an opium clulture !

History will tell yo that after the death of the Holy Prophet (may peace be on him), so many scribes and companions still alive, were asked to put together a text and so they all gathered all the known revelations in the form of "Mushuf" and so it ended up with several codices of several scribes and then Caliph Uthman ultimately "cannonized" the Medinan text or Codex and copies were made and distributed with orders to DESTROY all Codices.

Man made compilations, eh ? subject to whims and fancies and coloured by greed, avarice and political agenda ! ....so when does a revelation cease to be a revelation? You tell me Sir !

It was Caliph Uthman who attempted to standardize the consonantal text but many of the variant traditions yet survived ultimately leading to the growth of different centres with their own variant traditions of how the texts should be pointed and vowelized, despite Caliph Uthman's order to destroy all texts other than his own.....now why were the previous texts destroyed? any explanation?

I am not saying this...go and read history ......and so many Muslims will not even touch the "Uthmanic" text which you are raving about

Any "infallibility" or "divinity" refers to is that of the "Rope of Allah"...." and Hold fast to the Rope of Allah".........a rope has several knots ...right? not just one...isn't that what KM is trying to explain? and you are unable to understand because i did say you are not on the same page with him....and i doubt if in this lifetime you can be at his level...

Nobody talks about the physical forms which are for an appointed term (as per the HQ)...

The Rope of Allah and His "Light" is eternal....."And WE have sent you a Manifest Light"......Holy Quran is the "Plain scripture with a "Balance"..........."

And We have vested the Knowledge and the Authority of everything in the Manifest Imam"...........

" Obey Allah, the Prophet and the Olil Amr"..........the Amr is the Command of Allah and originates from HIS Dhat or essence...... and so KM is not wrong when he says to you that there are other sources from which knowledge can be derived..sure ! I agree with him !...and you think you are badgering him when what we see here is that you are being argumentative, to say the least.

Now can a "hidden" Imam serve any meaningful purpose ? Allah is clear !.........Imam must be ever present...

"Verily We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving".

There is a tradition from Bibi Ayesha that there once existed a "verse of stoning" where stoning was once described as punishment for fornication....where is that verse now? did you remove it?

Today only 100 lashes are prescribed but we all know that the early caliphs carried out the stoning punishment. Why does Islamic law to this date demand stoning when the Quran only prescribes flogging?

The Scholars are recounting the story of Joseph offensive as it is an erotic tale they say did not belong to the Quran.

The Shias are claiming that many verses favourable to Hazrat Ali have been removed by Caliph Uthman....Why did the Prophet marry some 12 wives if your text says 1, 2, 3 or 4 ? who brought the quran? and so who knows better? and why would the Prophet go against the quran he brought himself?

Today many of these Shias are , through default, are now holding onto the same Texts as yours... what other choice do they have ? If they read the Ahadith and Tafsir of their own Imams, they know they are lost and grounded !

There exists interpretative glosses on certain rare words and more serious are the interpolations of dogmatic or political character such as 42:36-38 which seems to have been added to justify the elevation of Caliph Uthman as Caliph to the detriment of Hazrat Ali.

I am not saying this....the Scholars who have done extensive research on the texts and variances are saying this.

This practice of wearing Black was shunned by the prophet (may peace be on him)....it has become your uniforms.

This practice of subjugating women and keeping them imprisoned and uneducated is NOT the Prophet's tradition...You are best at this huh?

Then there are views that have been added in the Quarnic texts and so when the Scholars have gone through many of the alterations and revisions they point to the unevenness of the style inherent, it is clear that you are waving at everyone and boasting about a text that is variant and full of interpolations and alterations when KM is saying to you that he cross refers other equally compelling texts and scriptures of value to him...and so what are you arguing?

Histories in your Texts are all jumbled and intermingled and shows that many hands - different hands have put it together - have caused discrepancies - adding or cutting out whatever they disliked and so they have made a mess of the divine revelations sent from God.

This does not mean that the original noble Quran is not alive or vibrant - it is !!!...but is not with you or your Masters and so stop boasting incessantly ...it is with the IMAM E ZAMANA ! The master of Thaqlayn !

Few years prior to AD 935 Ibn Mujahid tried to bring about a definite cannonization of one system consonants and a limit was placed on vowels and their variations but this was almost 300 years after the death of the prophet (may peace be on him). ...even then there are flaws...

So what are you boasting? the original Quran is with the Ahl al Bayt since the time of Hazrat Ali...and so the promise of God to protect HIS Quran is relevant to the original version and NOT the variant texts you are waving at people .
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

Binom,

This is like asking any muslim to provide proof that the Quran is the Word of Allah, or that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the the Messenger of Allah, that is without using references to Quran or Hadith. Can you do that? I mean, its ridiculous you are asking this of us.

Dear Rizwon,

Please follow our discussion. The only reason why I asked him to prove to me the Imamat of his imam without reference to either the Qur'an or hadith was because he claimed that it could be done.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

binom,

KM is talking at times in riddles...at times he is taking short cuts - at times at a level that you are not able to understand....you are swinging on your pillars...he is swinging at a different frequency....he talks of Gnosis ! You are revolving around your exoteric level....

I told you that you are not on the same page as he is....if he were to talk to me I would be able to swing with him at all levels....

KM is not wrong....it is the Book (plain scripture) and the "balance" or the "wisdom' that goes hand in hand - Allah talks to mankind in parable....

I have asked you a simple question which you haven't answered....in Sura Fatiha, all muslims pray..."Guide us to the Right Path....the Path of THOSE upon whom THOU has bestowed favours....." - why does this prayer not say...Guide us to the Book or the quran which you sent to mankind?"...answer me please....why does God command us to some men whose path is Sirat? and so who are they? so how can KM be wrong? just because you do not understand him, he is wrong? No !

Hello ! Sirat is stretched over HELL and is thinner than the hair and sharper than the sword and all will have to cross it pal....so if you cling to those whom Allah has favoured, you may manage to cross over...otherwise you know what will happen....the Book is not enough....the Quran says so and I have already shown you ayats from the quran to support this notion and you are circling around the same questions....

The path or sirat is not just external and even in Sura al Hamd God commands us to remember HIM so that HE shows us the Straight path...

If God had made just one path then HE the Exalted would NOt have issued this dictate and command...it is so logical....don't chase your tail for God's sake....you are looking ignorant and backward....

Now this path or Sirat is established by the Prophets and the Messengers who are the nabiyyin and the Siddiqin....this path is also establish by the witnesses who are the Shuhada and the righteous Imams who are the Salihin and sura 4:69 speaks of this issue....sirat is also the path of the soul and so first the people I have mentioned above have traversed this path....they are the true muslimeen....who are totally submitted to Allah...get the point....KM is showing but one aspect and you are getting all wired up....
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