; I have a question and confusion about Hazrat Adam A.S and Bibi Hawa. As stated in the Quran the history of Adam A.S and how God made him with mud and made a statue and told all angels to bow him...then ;He made Bibi Hawa and they were living in Paradise and were thrown out of Paradise due to their disobedience;On the other hand, our Imam SMS A.S said that there are many adams and our pir also told us how world was created. Then in Quran God said that I make Human in the best formand he is best of His creature...
I am not questioning any of these authorities, though I have a confusion...
As in das Avtaar Hazrat Adam is Adam-ul-Bashr so where the story of Hazrat Adam A.S fits in ;that states in Quran.Moreover i heard a really excellent waaez by Alwaaz abualy on the subject of das avtaar.In one of the question asked to him he answered may be Hazrat Adam A.S is from other planet...
I know the both story of creation stated in Ginan and Quran but having confusion..
Quran , Adam A.s and Pir's Revolution and Das Avvatar
-
farhatnoorali
- Posts: 24
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Ya Ali Madad,
The Ismailies have a very DIFFERENT interpretation of the QURANIC story of Prophet Adam and his wife Eve.
THE CYCLE OF PROPHET ADAM:
Prophet Adam was NOT the first human being:
Most Muslims believe that Prophet Adam of the Biblical and Quranic narratives and his wife Eve were the first two people on earth. This results from a mere literal inpretation of the Scriptures and that which does not correspond with scientific or rational thought. The Ismaili interpretation of Prophet Adam and the events of his period transcend the literalism professed by mainstream Muslims. Far from being the first man on earth, Prophet Adam was one of the men belonging to the Cycle before ours – in Hinduism this is the Duapourjug. Prophet Adam is called the ‘historical’ or ‘biblical’ Adam. He, like any other human being, was born of two parents. His mother was Harsa Devi and his father was Imam Honayd – who correspondes to the figure of the Budh Avatar mentioned in the Ginan of Pir Sadardin.
Quran 2:30 – Behold thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent – khalifa on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
Quran 2:31 - And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
Quran 2:32 - They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
Quran 2:33 - He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
The Imam-Qaim addresses his dignitaries:
It is not the all-Powerful God who is addressing his Angels. Rather, it is the last Imam (the Qaim al-Qiyama) of the previous Cycle – Duapourjug, he was known as Imam Honayd (the Budh Avatar of the Ginans). The Imam was not addressing celestial angels – he was addressing his earthly angels. These ‘angels’ were the highest dignitaries of the Imam – corresponding to the Four Great Hujjahs and the Twelve Hujjahs of the Day and Night. As mentioned previously, the Universal (Imam) Adam had inaugurated a Cycle of Epiphany, when the esoteric truths of Gnosis were preached openly. This Cycle lasted around fifty-thousand years. In the last three millennia of this period, the innocent state of humankind was afflicted with various disturbing events and catastrophes (ie: the events of the Ramayan, the battle of Mahabharat). Men started to pervert the spiritual sciences and turned to the practical sciences. Humanity began to turn away from the Religion of Resurrection – the Religion of the Holy Imams. It was about 6000 years ago, (4000 BC) when the Imam Honayd, sensing the downfall to which the spiritual state of humanity aspired, ordered the implementation of a Religious Law (Shariat) for mankind.
The Imam-Qaim appoints Prophet Adam as his khalifa:
With this in mind, the Imam placed his son Adam before the dignitaries of the Dawat, the Hujjahs, and declared his intention to appoint Adam as his ‘khalifa on earth’. The reference to ‘earth’ signified a movement toward the ‘exoteric’ or the Law (Shariat). From this time forward, the eternal truths (Haqiqat) of Religion would be hidden by the Law (Shariat) and unavailable to the masses. Prophet Adam was the ‘khalifa’ of Imam Honayd – who was the Qaim al-Qiyamat. At once, the disciples, disturbed by the notion of obeying a Law (Shariah) began to question the Imam who replied in grave melancholy, ‘I know what you know not.’ The Imam invested his son Adam with the power of Lawgiving.
Quran 2:34 – And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
The Ismailies have a very DIFFERENT interpretation of the QURANIC story of Prophet Adam and his wife Eve.
THE CYCLE OF PROPHET ADAM:
Prophet Adam was NOT the first human being:
Most Muslims believe that Prophet Adam of the Biblical and Quranic narratives and his wife Eve were the first two people on earth. This results from a mere literal inpretation of the Scriptures and that which does not correspond with scientific or rational thought. The Ismaili interpretation of Prophet Adam and the events of his period transcend the literalism professed by mainstream Muslims. Far from being the first man on earth, Prophet Adam was one of the men belonging to the Cycle before ours – in Hinduism this is the Duapourjug. Prophet Adam is called the ‘historical’ or ‘biblical’ Adam. He, like any other human being, was born of two parents. His mother was Harsa Devi and his father was Imam Honayd – who correspondes to the figure of the Budh Avatar mentioned in the Ginan of Pir Sadardin.
Quran 2:30 – Behold thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent – khalifa on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
Quran 2:31 - And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."
Quran 2:32 - They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
Quran 2:33 - He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
The Imam-Qaim addresses his dignitaries:
It is not the all-Powerful God who is addressing his Angels. Rather, it is the last Imam (the Qaim al-Qiyama) of the previous Cycle – Duapourjug, he was known as Imam Honayd (the Budh Avatar of the Ginans). The Imam was not addressing celestial angels – he was addressing his earthly angels. These ‘angels’ were the highest dignitaries of the Imam – corresponding to the Four Great Hujjahs and the Twelve Hujjahs of the Day and Night. As mentioned previously, the Universal (Imam) Adam had inaugurated a Cycle of Epiphany, when the esoteric truths of Gnosis were preached openly. This Cycle lasted around fifty-thousand years. In the last three millennia of this period, the innocent state of humankind was afflicted with various disturbing events and catastrophes (ie: the events of the Ramayan, the battle of Mahabharat). Men started to pervert the spiritual sciences and turned to the practical sciences. Humanity began to turn away from the Religion of Resurrection – the Religion of the Holy Imams. It was about 6000 years ago, (4000 BC) when the Imam Honayd, sensing the downfall to which the spiritual state of humanity aspired, ordered the implementation of a Religious Law (Shariat) for mankind.
The Imam-Qaim appoints Prophet Adam as his khalifa:
With this in mind, the Imam placed his son Adam before the dignitaries of the Dawat, the Hujjahs, and declared his intention to appoint Adam as his ‘khalifa on earth’. The reference to ‘earth’ signified a movement toward the ‘exoteric’ or the Law (Shariat). From this time forward, the eternal truths (Haqiqat) of Religion would be hidden by the Law (Shariat) and unavailable to the masses. Prophet Adam was the ‘khalifa’ of Imam Honayd – who was the Qaim al-Qiyamat. At once, the disciples, disturbed by the notion of obeying a Law (Shariah) began to question the Imam who replied in grave melancholy, ‘I know what you know not.’ The Imam invested his son Adam with the power of Lawgiving.
Quran 2:34 – And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
The Ismaili version of the fall!
I found this in my notes.
Shams
The Ismaili version of the Fall is quite different from that which most Christians are familiar with (and which derives ultimately from St Augustine). Before time began, the Ismailis say, the First Intelligence issued a Proclamation or Summons to all the Forms of Light that occupied the various levels of the hierarchy. The word used for this Summons (davat) is important, because it is also applied to the Ismaili preaching on earth, which is thus regarded as a reflection or copy of the archetypal Summons in heaven. (The word is still in common use in modern Persian to mean simply "invitation".) The Universal Soul - the First Emanation - obeyed the Divine Invitation, but the Chief Archangel of the Second Level (the Third Intelligence) became confused in some way and refused. The exact reason for his refusal is unclear, but according to H. Corbin it was a failure to recognize the "boundary" constituted by the Universal Soul above him; this failure led him to try to reach God directly, which amounted to thinking that he himself was divine. His "sin" seems in fact to have been an error in theology. As a result of his mistake he was relegated from the second rank to the lowest of all, the tenth, while all the others moved one step up. (Notice that the interval from the Third Intelligence to the Tenth Intelligence is seven, the Ismaili mystic number.)
The erring archangel did not fall alone. With him at the second rank had been a number of other beings, and they fell into the same trap as he, misled by his bad example, so they had to accompany him to the tenth level. Realizing his mistake too late, the fallen archangel told his companions that the only way they could regain their former station was by following his orders and obeying the Intelligences whom they now found above them. Perhaps not unreasonably, most of them refused to listen to him, and the most recalcitrant of all went so far as to incite rebellion. This was the future Satan. "The archangel," he said, "has brought all this trouble on us; we merely did what he did himself. Now that he has landed us in this mess he wants to drag us into something even worse." Most of the other Beings agreed with him, but some rejected his arguments and others were uncertain what to do. The brilliance of those who rejected the archangel's authority became darkened and they were plunged into ignorance.
Realizing that if they remained as purely spiritual beings they would never be able to extricate themselves from their confusion, the archangel determined on a plan to liberate them. He made himself the Demiurge (a kind of minor creating deity) and created the material world to serve as the means by which these beings could regain their former status and enlightenment. It seems that the inertia of the material world is in some way necessary for redemption, rather as the presence of the atmosphere is necessary for the flight of a bird or an aircraft even though it is also a source of resistance that has to be overcome.
Were it not for the Fall, then, the material world would not exist. We could almost say that the material world is a collective illusion produced by our distorted vision. Rashid al-Din Sinan, the great Nizari chief in Syria during the period of the Resurrection, is quoted as saying: "Were it not for our passionate attachment to material things, there would exist God and nothing but God." This doesn't merely mean that we fail to see God because we are attached to the pleasures of this world. Sinan's point is more radical: the very existence of the world is due to our ignorance of our own true nature, which is God.
The former archangel of the second level, now become the Demiurge of our world, is the Celestial Adam, of whom the various Terrestrial Adams (for there are many such in the Ismaili scheme) are copies or reflections.
The Celestial Adam's companions were overcome by panic when they found themselves being overtaken by the darkness of the material world that Adam had created. They felt themselves to be drowning in matter, and from the struggles they made to resist being overwhelmed came the three dimensions of space. The densest material occupied the centre, while the substances of lesser density took up their relative positions as the various spheres of the Ptolemaic universe, which thus consists of eleven concentric layers. The earth is at the centre, and is surrounded by a shell of air; together these make up the lower, sublunary, world, which also contains the infernal regions. This is the realm of change and decay. Outside the earth come the nine celestial spheres: the seven "planets" (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn), the sphere of the fixed stars (the Zodiac), and finally the outer enclosing sphere. Each of the celestial spheres is under the tutelage of one of the Emanations.
Within this great concept of the universe as the means by which the cosmic return is to be effected, human life finds its meaning and purpose. We, indeed, are at the heart of the process of return, for we are the fallen Adam's companions. Moreover, every creature, indeed every created thing, is part of this process, and the world will endure until everything has returned to the Source. There is an interesting similarity here to the Mahayana Buddhist idea that all sentient creatures must eventually gain enlightenment, but the Ismaili position is even more radical, for even the mineral kingdom seems to be included. Thus we find the great Sufi poet Jalal al-Din Rumi, who may have been influenced by Ismaili ideas (Chapter 6), saying that he has died and been reborn successively as a mineral, a vegetable, an animal, and a man; why, then, should he fear to die again, since he will be reborn at a still higher level?
Human beings are midway between the material and the celestial worlds, and our nature partakes of both of these. Our animal nature draws us downwards, towards hell, while our souls incline upwards, towards heaven. This is why animals walk on all fours, with bent backs, while plants - even worse - have roots that actually penetrate the earth. Man, on the other hand, walks upright. (Birds, presumably, should be even more enlightened than men, but the Ismailis don't seem to have drawn this inference.)
Man's relationship to the other inhabitants of the earth is a reflection of the relationship of the Universal Soul to the rest of creation: that is, man (the microcosm) is the universe (the macrocosm) writ small. The Universal Soul governs the universe; Man, likewise, commands the creatures of the material world. By the same token he is responsible for their welfare and enlightenment. For the Ismailis, everything interlocks, and every level reflects the others. Ismailism thus accords well with modern notions of the ecological significance of human activity.
The Return to the Source
The Ismailis had a detailed explanation of the way in which the cosmic return is even now being accomplished. This process comes about, they believed, in a cyclical manner, through the agency of prophets and their helpers. The first prophet was the first Terrestrial Adam, who was generated by cosmic forces. As the earth developed, it was acted upon by the various celestial spheres which enclosed it. Each sphere exerted its influence for a thousand years, until at the beginning of the seventh cycle the Moon brought into existence the first human being and his companions. (This is a good example of the Ismaili principle of esoteric interpretation, here applied to the seven days of creation specified in Genesis.)
The first Terrestrial Adam appeared in Ceylon, and he had twenty-seven companions, who were the manifestations on the material level of those Forms of Light who received the Celestial Adam's preaching favourably. The first Terrestrial Adam had many of the qualities of his celestial counterpart: he was sinless and perfect, and he transmitted these qualities to all the later Imams. During his rule men lived in Paradise and saw spiritual truths directly, not through the veil of symbolism as at present. He sent twelve of his companions to the various parts of the world, and inaugurated the series of historical cycles which has continued ever since.
When he appointed his successor, the first Terrestrial Adam went to the Tenth Level to replace the original Celestial Adam, who now moved one level up. (It is not clear what happened to the occupants of the Third Level; there seems to be nowhere for them to go.) This celestial game of Musical Chairs will continue until the whole cosmic situation is restored to its original condition.
The first Terrestrial Adam was, as I have said, merely the first of many subsequent Adams. Each Adam rules for 1000 years. Units of this duration are grouped together in cycles of seven. The first prophet of the 7000-year cycle - the Adam of that cycle - inaugurates a period of openly revealed truth, during which men live in a paradisal state. During the rule of his six successors, however, truth is hidden, and men have to follow an exoteric religious law, until at the end of the 7000 years comes the renewal of the paradisal state by the New Adam; this is the Resurrection (qiyama) - which of course took place at Alamut.
Each prophet (natiq) has a Companion called the Wasi (executor). The Wasi, together with a further six successors, make up the seven "silent" Imams (so called because they do not add anything new to what the prophet has taught). Different Ismaili authors explain the relation between prophet and Imam in various ways, but in general it appears that the prophet is responsible for the law and the exoteric aspects of the faith, while the Imam teaches inner spiritual truth.
The 7000-year cycles are themselves grouped into larger cycles of 7, which therefore each contain 49,000 years. The end of each large cycle is marked by a major Resurrection. There will eventually come a time when the whole sequence comes to an end and creation is restored to its original state. The time given for this is sometimes said to be 360,000 x 360,000 years. This figure is of considerable interest.
Shams
The Ismaili version of the Fall is quite different from that which most Christians are familiar with (and which derives ultimately from St Augustine). Before time began, the Ismailis say, the First Intelligence issued a Proclamation or Summons to all the Forms of Light that occupied the various levels of the hierarchy. The word used for this Summons (davat) is important, because it is also applied to the Ismaili preaching on earth, which is thus regarded as a reflection or copy of the archetypal Summons in heaven. (The word is still in common use in modern Persian to mean simply "invitation".) The Universal Soul - the First Emanation - obeyed the Divine Invitation, but the Chief Archangel of the Second Level (the Third Intelligence) became confused in some way and refused. The exact reason for his refusal is unclear, but according to H. Corbin it was a failure to recognize the "boundary" constituted by the Universal Soul above him; this failure led him to try to reach God directly, which amounted to thinking that he himself was divine. His "sin" seems in fact to have been an error in theology. As a result of his mistake he was relegated from the second rank to the lowest of all, the tenth, while all the others moved one step up. (Notice that the interval from the Third Intelligence to the Tenth Intelligence is seven, the Ismaili mystic number.)
The erring archangel did not fall alone. With him at the second rank had been a number of other beings, and they fell into the same trap as he, misled by his bad example, so they had to accompany him to the tenth level. Realizing his mistake too late, the fallen archangel told his companions that the only way they could regain their former station was by following his orders and obeying the Intelligences whom they now found above them. Perhaps not unreasonably, most of them refused to listen to him, and the most recalcitrant of all went so far as to incite rebellion. This was the future Satan. "The archangel," he said, "has brought all this trouble on us; we merely did what he did himself. Now that he has landed us in this mess he wants to drag us into something even worse." Most of the other Beings agreed with him, but some rejected his arguments and others were uncertain what to do. The brilliance of those who rejected the archangel's authority became darkened and they were plunged into ignorance.
Realizing that if they remained as purely spiritual beings they would never be able to extricate themselves from their confusion, the archangel determined on a plan to liberate them. He made himself the Demiurge (a kind of minor creating deity) and created the material world to serve as the means by which these beings could regain their former status and enlightenment. It seems that the inertia of the material world is in some way necessary for redemption, rather as the presence of the atmosphere is necessary for the flight of a bird or an aircraft even though it is also a source of resistance that has to be overcome.
Were it not for the Fall, then, the material world would not exist. We could almost say that the material world is a collective illusion produced by our distorted vision. Rashid al-Din Sinan, the great Nizari chief in Syria during the period of the Resurrection, is quoted as saying: "Were it not for our passionate attachment to material things, there would exist God and nothing but God." This doesn't merely mean that we fail to see God because we are attached to the pleasures of this world. Sinan's point is more radical: the very existence of the world is due to our ignorance of our own true nature, which is God.
The former archangel of the second level, now become the Demiurge of our world, is the Celestial Adam, of whom the various Terrestrial Adams (for there are many such in the Ismaili scheme) are copies or reflections.
The Celestial Adam's companions were overcome by panic when they found themselves being overtaken by the darkness of the material world that Adam had created. They felt themselves to be drowning in matter, and from the struggles they made to resist being overwhelmed came the three dimensions of space. The densest material occupied the centre, while the substances of lesser density took up their relative positions as the various spheres of the Ptolemaic universe, which thus consists of eleven concentric layers. The earth is at the centre, and is surrounded by a shell of air; together these make up the lower, sublunary, world, which also contains the infernal regions. This is the realm of change and decay. Outside the earth come the nine celestial spheres: the seven "planets" (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn), the sphere of the fixed stars (the Zodiac), and finally the outer enclosing sphere. Each of the celestial spheres is under the tutelage of one of the Emanations.
Within this great concept of the universe as the means by which the cosmic return is to be effected, human life finds its meaning and purpose. We, indeed, are at the heart of the process of return, for we are the fallen Adam's companions. Moreover, every creature, indeed every created thing, is part of this process, and the world will endure until everything has returned to the Source. There is an interesting similarity here to the Mahayana Buddhist idea that all sentient creatures must eventually gain enlightenment, but the Ismaili position is even more radical, for even the mineral kingdom seems to be included. Thus we find the great Sufi poet Jalal al-Din Rumi, who may have been influenced by Ismaili ideas (Chapter 6), saying that he has died and been reborn successively as a mineral, a vegetable, an animal, and a man; why, then, should he fear to die again, since he will be reborn at a still higher level?
Human beings are midway between the material and the celestial worlds, and our nature partakes of both of these. Our animal nature draws us downwards, towards hell, while our souls incline upwards, towards heaven. This is why animals walk on all fours, with bent backs, while plants - even worse - have roots that actually penetrate the earth. Man, on the other hand, walks upright. (Birds, presumably, should be even more enlightened than men, but the Ismailis don't seem to have drawn this inference.)
Man's relationship to the other inhabitants of the earth is a reflection of the relationship of the Universal Soul to the rest of creation: that is, man (the microcosm) is the universe (the macrocosm) writ small. The Universal Soul governs the universe; Man, likewise, commands the creatures of the material world. By the same token he is responsible for their welfare and enlightenment. For the Ismailis, everything interlocks, and every level reflects the others. Ismailism thus accords well with modern notions of the ecological significance of human activity.
The Return to the Source
The Ismailis had a detailed explanation of the way in which the cosmic return is even now being accomplished. This process comes about, they believed, in a cyclical manner, through the agency of prophets and their helpers. The first prophet was the first Terrestrial Adam, who was generated by cosmic forces. As the earth developed, it was acted upon by the various celestial spheres which enclosed it. Each sphere exerted its influence for a thousand years, until at the beginning of the seventh cycle the Moon brought into existence the first human being and his companions. (This is a good example of the Ismaili principle of esoteric interpretation, here applied to the seven days of creation specified in Genesis.)
The first Terrestrial Adam appeared in Ceylon, and he had twenty-seven companions, who were the manifestations on the material level of those Forms of Light who received the Celestial Adam's preaching favourably. The first Terrestrial Adam had many of the qualities of his celestial counterpart: he was sinless and perfect, and he transmitted these qualities to all the later Imams. During his rule men lived in Paradise and saw spiritual truths directly, not through the veil of symbolism as at present. He sent twelve of his companions to the various parts of the world, and inaugurated the series of historical cycles which has continued ever since.
When he appointed his successor, the first Terrestrial Adam went to the Tenth Level to replace the original Celestial Adam, who now moved one level up. (It is not clear what happened to the occupants of the Third Level; there seems to be nowhere for them to go.) This celestial game of Musical Chairs will continue until the whole cosmic situation is restored to its original condition.
The first Terrestrial Adam was, as I have said, merely the first of many subsequent Adams. Each Adam rules for 1000 years. Units of this duration are grouped together in cycles of seven. The first prophet of the 7000-year cycle - the Adam of that cycle - inaugurates a period of openly revealed truth, during which men live in a paradisal state. During the rule of his six successors, however, truth is hidden, and men have to follow an exoteric religious law, until at the end of the 7000 years comes the renewal of the paradisal state by the New Adam; this is the Resurrection (qiyama) - which of course took place at Alamut.
Each prophet (natiq) has a Companion called the Wasi (executor). The Wasi, together with a further six successors, make up the seven "silent" Imams (so called because they do not add anything new to what the prophet has taught). Different Ismaili authors explain the relation between prophet and Imam in various ways, but in general it appears that the prophet is responsible for the law and the exoteric aspects of the faith, while the Imam teaches inner spiritual truth.
The 7000-year cycles are themselves grouped into larger cycles of 7, which therefore each contain 49,000 years. The end of each large cycle is marked by a major Resurrection. There will eventually come a time when the whole sequence comes to an end and creation is restored to its original state. The time given for this is sometimes said to be 360,000 x 360,000 years. This figure is of considerable interest.
What you have posted is the Bohra-Mustali version of Ismaili Cosmology.
The Fatimid and Nizari versions had no concept of the Fall of the Third Archangel.
Nevertheless, I have adopted the Drama in Heaven concept and formed a cosmology of my own by combining things from here and there.
Here are the highlights of my thoughts:
* The Light of Imamate is the First Intelligence
* The Light of Piratan is the Second Intelligence
* Mankind (spiritual children) correspond to the Third Intelligence that fell down to the Tenth level.
* The first terrestrial Adam (Universal Adam) was the first human Imam, and he was the 'mazhar' of the First Intelligence.
* The Prophet Adam of the Quran and Bible is a 'partial' Adam. He was a Prophet (not an Imam), and reached the status of Pir (mazhar of Second Intelligence).
* Since the Third Intelligence (and all the souls on that level) fell spiritually, the goal is for the First and Second Intelligences (Imam and Pir) to bring back the Tenth Intelligence souls (the spiritual children) back to their original abode, and eventually return everything to the First Intelligence (ie: help everyone acheive fanafillah).
The Fatimid and Nizari versions had no concept of the Fall of the Third Archangel.
Nevertheless, I have adopted the Drama in Heaven concept and formed a cosmology of my own by combining things from here and there.
Here are the highlights of my thoughts:
* The Light of Imamate is the First Intelligence
* The Light of Piratan is the Second Intelligence
* Mankind (spiritual children) correspond to the Third Intelligence that fell down to the Tenth level.
* The first terrestrial Adam (Universal Adam) was the first human Imam, and he was the 'mazhar' of the First Intelligence.
* The Prophet Adam of the Quran and Bible is a 'partial' Adam. He was a Prophet (not an Imam), and reached the status of Pir (mazhar of Second Intelligence).
* Since the Third Intelligence (and all the souls on that level) fell spiritually, the goal is for the First and Second Intelligences (Imam and Pir) to bring back the Tenth Intelligence souls (the spiritual children) back to their original abode, and eventually return everything to the First Intelligence (ie: help everyone acheive fanafillah).
Who was Iblis
Who could be Iblis under this interpretation? How about the Hindu Bhramin? Being the most 'learned' of the time. In Ginan 'Allah ek Kasam sabuka', Azazil is the one who was most learned and he refused to accept someone less knowlegable. Just speculating...Any thoughts or ideas?kandani wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
Quran 2:34 – And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
First of all,kandani wrote: * The Light of Imamate is the First Intelligence
* The Light of Piratan is the Second .
The above quoted was true for the comon people in Fatimid era but not for the few initiated who were with the Imam.
* The Light of Imamate if beyond the First Intellect, he is the one that has made the First Intellect by Instauration [not by emmanation]
* Allah [Brahma, the Light of Piratan] is the First Intellect.
Second,
as there are many many Adams, there are also many many "fall of Adam" each are valide, so we should not try to debate which is the most valide but try to catalogue all of the existing interpretation, we'll be better of at the end...
Nagib
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farhatnoorali
- Posts: 24
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Tusi's Perspective - Adam and Eve
By Persian sources are you referring to Tusi's Tasawwurrat (Paradise of Submission) or is there another one? No wonder MHI mentioned his name at Ottawa recently! The following are some excerpts from it which are pertinent for this discussion.
Harith Murreh, i.e. Iblis, was one of the teachers of the end of the cycle of disclosure who had survived until the beginning of the period of concealment. Since he held the position of instructor to the angels, the followers of the preaching of the Resurrection, and lacked the means to learn from Adam, he said: "This religious law is the imposition of the path, and that Resurrection whose door they have closed is the universal purpose. I have attained that purpose and have reached that goal; why should I return from that goal and purpose and start passing through the degrees and halting-places again?" He did not accept the religious law and said: "I am acquainted with the substance and essence of that summons to which Adam calls, and do not need to put my neck under the yoke of obedience and obligation to it."
As for his saying: " I am better than Adam, because You created me from fire and him from clay", by that fire he meant divinely assisted knowledge, and by that clay he meant speculative and instructional knowledge, meaning that fire is divinely assisted knowledge, and human knowledge is speculative and instructional. Fire in its exaltedness and comprehensiveness is like divine assistance, and earth is like speculation and water like instruction.
As for that which Adam was commanded: "Do not approach this tree"(2:35) and "Do not eat wheat" He meant the Eternal Tree (shajarat al-khuld) and the Eternal Kingdom (mulk-i la yubla), i.e., the knowledge of the Resurrection. "Do not eat wheat" means do not start the teaching of the Resurrection and do not speak about its appearance, because it is not yet its time.
As for [Adam's] disobedience, and his being deceived by the words of Iblis and eating the wheat, it means that Iblis was cursed by the refusal and pride that he showed, but did not heed the curse, and subsequently approached Adam and put before him many proofs concerning the summons of the Resurrection of that Qaim. On account of his initial weakness, Adam acknowledged [them]; nevertheless, he repeated [these proofs] before some people who were not entitled to know them. Because of this he fell into the pit of the punishment of the Qaim, may greetings be upon mention of him. When he realised that had committed a sin, he acknowledged his error, and took refuge in God's all-encompassing Mercy, and his apology and repentance were accepted.
Eve, who is called Adam's mate, was the meanings of that religious law. She was informed of the esoteric rules and meanings, and that task of the religious law of that cycle was to be accomplished by Adam and herself. She also at first acknowledged the words of Harith, but in the end she turned back, with repentance and apology, to the truth.
Harith Murreh, i.e. Iblis, was one of the teachers of the end of the cycle of disclosure who had survived until the beginning of the period of concealment. Since he held the position of instructor to the angels, the followers of the preaching of the Resurrection, and lacked the means to learn from Adam, he said: "This religious law is the imposition of the path, and that Resurrection whose door they have closed is the universal purpose. I have attained that purpose and have reached that goal; why should I return from that goal and purpose and start passing through the degrees and halting-places again?" He did not accept the religious law and said: "I am acquainted with the substance and essence of that summons to which Adam calls, and do not need to put my neck under the yoke of obedience and obligation to it."
As for his saying: " I am better than Adam, because You created me from fire and him from clay", by that fire he meant divinely assisted knowledge, and by that clay he meant speculative and instructional knowledge, meaning that fire is divinely assisted knowledge, and human knowledge is speculative and instructional. Fire in its exaltedness and comprehensiveness is like divine assistance, and earth is like speculation and water like instruction.
As for that which Adam was commanded: "Do not approach this tree"(2:35) and "Do not eat wheat" He meant the Eternal Tree (shajarat al-khuld) and the Eternal Kingdom (mulk-i la yubla), i.e., the knowledge of the Resurrection. "Do not eat wheat" means do not start the teaching of the Resurrection and do not speak about its appearance, because it is not yet its time.
As for [Adam's] disobedience, and his being deceived by the words of Iblis and eating the wheat, it means that Iblis was cursed by the refusal and pride that he showed, but did not heed the curse, and subsequently approached Adam and put before him many proofs concerning the summons of the Resurrection of that Qaim. On account of his initial weakness, Adam acknowledged [them]; nevertheless, he repeated [these proofs] before some people who were not entitled to know them. Because of this he fell into the pit of the punishment of the Qaim, may greetings be upon mention of him. When he realised that had committed a sin, he acknowledged his error, and took refuge in God's all-encompassing Mercy, and his apology and repentance were accepted.
Eve, who is called Adam's mate, was the meanings of that religious law. She was informed of the esoteric rules and meanings, and that task of the religious law of that cycle was to be accomplished by Adam and herself. She also at first acknowledged the words of Harith, but in the end she turned back, with repentance and apology, to the truth.
Thanks for your post nagib.
I have chosen my interpretation but I am open to hearing others.
The interpretation you mentioned is unique and interesting. You are saying that Noor of Imam is beyond First Intellect. Either you mean that Imam's Light is the Divine Command (Amr), or you are saying that Imam's Light is the supreme Godhead itself, He who is above all else.
I am looking forward to reading your article on Khat Nirinjan when you explain this concept.
"The above quoted was true for the comon people in Fatimid era but not for the few initiated who were with the Imam. "
-actually the mainstream Fatimid thought said that Prophet's Light was Universal Intellect and Imam's Light was Universal Soul.
Can you provide evidence for the latter part of your statement?
thanks
I have chosen my interpretation but I am open to hearing others.
The interpretation you mentioned is unique and interesting. You are saying that Noor of Imam is beyond First Intellect. Either you mean that Imam's Light is the Divine Command (Amr), or you are saying that Imam's Light is the supreme Godhead itself, He who is above all else.
I am looking forward to reading your article on Khat Nirinjan when you explain this concept.
"The above quoted was true for the comon people in Fatimid era but not for the few initiated who were with the Imam. "
-actually the mainstream Fatimid thought said that Prophet's Light was Universal Intellect and Imam's Light was Universal Soul.
Can you provide evidence for the latter part of your statement?
thanks
Further to the concept of God beyond God [or Allah as 1st intellect and Imam and the “power –essence” that instaured the first intellect, here is a relevant discussion on similar ideas in the Bible.
The articulation of Monotheism in Judaisme came late; it was done in translating by Lord all the stance of Elohim, Yahwe etc… instead of keeping them separate. By inter-using various name for God, the impression was created that all aspects of Gods were the same and the distinction between attributes and essence disappeared.
Even Deuteronomy drew a distinction between YHWH and God in 32:7-9 – some of the translations still testify to this.
"Then the Lord from before the Lord brought down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah;" [Gen 19:24]
Who is this “Lord from before the Lord?”
In Amos 4:11, Isaiah 13:19, and Jeremiah MT 50:40, YHWH says, "God ('El) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah", drawing a distinction between Himself and the Lord of the Heavens. As to the first of these, the NIV translators felt so troubled that they replaced 'El with the first person singular.
Deut. 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods,
[an interesting discussion on 32:43 is at: http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/156.htm [the Bible behind the Bible]
I have also seen translation of a well known verses as follow” John1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a"God. v.2 He was in the beginning with God.”
Also another a question, if the God of the Bible is a jealous Godas he himself says, who is he jealous of….
I would say all this may confuse the “people of the book” but if there is a meaning to this, it is there only for our Jamat because you have you know what you are looking for to find it J
The articulation of Monotheism in Judaisme came late; it was done in translating by Lord all the stance of Elohim, Yahwe etc… instead of keeping them separate. By inter-using various name for God, the impression was created that all aspects of Gods were the same and the distinction between attributes and essence disappeared.
Even Deuteronomy drew a distinction between YHWH and God in 32:7-9 – some of the translations still testify to this.
"Then the Lord from before the Lord brought down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah;" [Gen 19:24]
Who is this “Lord from before the Lord?”
In Amos 4:11, Isaiah 13:19, and Jeremiah MT 50:40, YHWH says, "God ('El) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah", drawing a distinction between Himself and the Lord of the Heavens. As to the first of these, the NIV translators felt so troubled that they replaced 'El with the first person singular.
Deut. 32:43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods,
[an interesting discussion on 32:43 is at: http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/156.htm [the Bible behind the Bible]
I have also seen translation of a well known verses as follow” John1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a"God. v.2 He was in the beginning with God.”
Also another a question, if the God of the Bible is a jealous Godas he himself says, who is he jealous of….
I would say all this may confuse the “people of the book” but if there is a meaning to this, it is there only for our Jamat because you have you know what you are looking for to find it J
Nagib,
can you provide more refernces from Ismaili and Islamic sources.
the Bible itself is a very controversial document. This notion of two "Gods" in the Bible is problematic and up to a myriad of different interpretations. The Christians themselves have used them to show the concept of Trinity.
Also....when has the Imam ever been seen as the Essence or Godhead that originated the First Intellect?
Doesnt it make more sense to say that Imam's Light is the Universal Intellect and Pir's Light is the Universal Soul?
can you provide more refernces from Ismaili and Islamic sources.
the Bible itself is a very controversial document. This notion of two "Gods" in the Bible is problematic and up to a myriad of different interpretations. The Christians themselves have used them to show the concept of Trinity.
Also....when has the Imam ever been seen as the Essence or Godhead that originated the First Intellect?
Doesnt it make more sense to say that Imam's Light is the Universal Intellect and Pir's Light is the Universal Soul?
Pir is "God the Creator", god with attributes..kandani wrote:Nagib,
can you provide more refernces from Ismaili and Islamic sources.
Also....when has the Imam ever been seen as the Essence or Godhead that originated the First Intellect?
Doesnt it make more sense to say that Imam's Light is the Universal Intellect and Pir's Light is the Universal Soul?
Pir has been "instaured - thapiya" by the Imam in the same way the first intellect has been instaured [thapiya] by the Imam. I have already seen this in the ginans/grants but I don't recall which one [which is normal as I have read almost all of them and my old age's showing traces of selinnity on my brain
]As for Ismaili sources, here below is one... and this will be explained at lenght from Ismaili sources in my forthcoming article on Khat Nirinjan.
Corbin Henri: Trilogie Ismaélienne. (3- Symboles choisis de la Roseraie du Mystère de Mahmoud Shabestari.) Bibl. Iran. No. 9. Paris: Adrien Maisonneuve, 1961. p.60
I can agree with you that on the Plane of Essence, the Imam is the Godhead.
But Imam is also present on the Plane of Divinity (Lahut), and on this plane of the Intelligible World or the Pleroma of the Archangels, the Imam is the First Intelligence.
In my humble understanding, before the Imam is revealed as a human being on the earthly plane, the Essence/Godhead (He who is above all else) must first manifest attributes (since humanity possesses attributes). The divine anthropomorphosis takes place on the level of the First Archangel (Intellect) (which is the Noor of Hazrat Ali of the BUK farmans). Then, the human (Nasut) Imam is the earthly mazhar of the First Intellect (Allah with the attributes). The Pir is the mazhar of the Universal Soul, the Light of Muhammad which possesses the feminine divine attributes.
How can there be a direct epiphany - from the Essence directly to the Sensible, without first a revelation of attributes and qualities?
But Imam is also present on the Plane of Divinity (Lahut), and on this plane of the Intelligible World or the Pleroma of the Archangels, the Imam is the First Intelligence.
In my humble understanding, before the Imam is revealed as a human being on the earthly plane, the Essence/Godhead (He who is above all else) must first manifest attributes (since humanity possesses attributes). The divine anthropomorphosis takes place on the level of the First Archangel (Intellect) (which is the Noor of Hazrat Ali of the BUK farmans). Then, the human (Nasut) Imam is the earthly mazhar of the First Intellect (Allah with the attributes). The Pir is the mazhar of the Universal Soul, the Light of Muhammad which possesses the feminine divine attributes.
How can there be a direct epiphany - from the Essence directly to the Sensible, without first a revelation of attributes and qualities?
Tusi on Imam, Hujjat and Prophet
The following is what Tusi says about the Imam, Hujjat and the Prophet in his Tasawwurat, which I hope may clarify the issue.
The Sublime Word (Kalimeh-i a'la), the First Intellect and the Universal Soul each have a manifestation in this world. The manifestation of the Sublime Word is the Imam, may greetings be upon him, who is beyond conceptualization and representation and exalted above attributes and their negations (vasf va tanzih). The manifestation of the First Intellect is the Hujjat of the Imam, may greetings be upon mention of him, the form-giver of perfection. The manifestation of Universal Soul is the prophet, who, in the cycle of Origin bestows on souls the aptitude to acquire that form which is their ultimate perfection.
The Sublime Word (Kalimeh-i a'la), the First Intellect and the Universal Soul each have a manifestation in this world. The manifestation of the Sublime Word is the Imam, may greetings be upon him, who is beyond conceptualization and representation and exalted above attributes and their negations (vasf va tanzih). The manifestation of the First Intellect is the Hujjat of the Imam, may greetings be upon mention of him, the form-giver of perfection. The manifestation of Universal Soul is the prophet, who, in the cycle of Origin bestows on souls the aptitude to acquire that form which is their ultimate perfection.
Allow me to sum up the different positions regarding Imam, Prophet, and Hujjat, and Cosmology in my humble understanding:
al-Sijistani's and Khusraw's view:
Universal Command
Universal Intellect ------ Natiq
Universal Soul ---------- Asas
Jadd --------------------- Imam
Fath --------------------- Hujjat
Khayal ------------------ Dai
al-Kirmani's view:
First Intellect ----------- Natiq
Second Intellect ------- Asas
Third Intellect --------- Imam
Fourth Intellect -------- Bab
Fifth Intellect ---------- Hujjat
Sixth Intellect --------- Dai al-Balagh
Seventh Intellect ----- Dai al-Mutaliq
Eight Intellect --------- Dai al-Mahsur
Ninth Intellect --------- Madhun Akbar
Tenth Intellect -------- Madun Mahsur
al-Tusi's view:
Universal Command ---------- Imam
Universal Intellect ------------ Hujjat/Bab
Universal Soul ---------------- Prophet/Dai
Nagib Tajdin's view:
Supreme Godhead/Divine Essence ---------- Imam
First Intellect (Allah with attributes) ------ Prophet/Pir
Universal Soul ------ ?
My comments:
Both Nasirdin al-Tusi and al-Sijistani acknowledge of the concept of the Universal Command through which the Godhead originates the First Intellect. However, Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani spent much time refuting the doctrine of the Divine Command. He clarified that the First Intellect(Universal Intellect) and the Command are one and the same thing. In other words, the Ibda (Origination) and the Mubda (Originated) are one and the same.
Nasiruddin al-Tusi puts the rank of Hujjat higher than that of the Prophet. I myself cannot agree with this sort of thing, even though the post-Alamut Ismailies had such tendencies. On the other hand, al-Sijistani and Khusraw placed the rank of Natiq/Prophet over that of the Imam, and separated the rank of Ali (Asas) and the later Imams.
Regarding Nagib's view, I find it hard to make sense of the notion of Imam as the mazhar of the supreme Godhead/Essence, since the Essence in unintelligible and without attributes, how can it have a physical epiphany (with forms and attributes) without first having a spiritual epiphany (with forms and attributes)?
In my view:
Universal Intellect (Allah/Ali with attributes) ------ Imam
Universal Soul (Muhammad with feminine attributes) ----- Prophet/Pir
and so on....
al-Sijistani's and Khusraw's view:
Universal Command
Universal Intellect ------ Natiq
Universal Soul ---------- Asas
Jadd --------------------- Imam
Fath --------------------- Hujjat
Khayal ------------------ Dai
al-Kirmani's view:
First Intellect ----------- Natiq
Second Intellect ------- Asas
Third Intellect --------- Imam
Fourth Intellect -------- Bab
Fifth Intellect ---------- Hujjat
Sixth Intellect --------- Dai al-Balagh
Seventh Intellect ----- Dai al-Mutaliq
Eight Intellect --------- Dai al-Mahsur
Ninth Intellect --------- Madhun Akbar
Tenth Intellect -------- Madun Mahsur
al-Tusi's view:
Universal Command ---------- Imam
Universal Intellect ------------ Hujjat/Bab
Universal Soul ---------------- Prophet/Dai
Nagib Tajdin's view:
Supreme Godhead/Divine Essence ---------- Imam
First Intellect (Allah with attributes) ------ Prophet/Pir
Universal Soul ------ ?
My comments:
Both Nasirdin al-Tusi and al-Sijistani acknowledge of the concept of the Universal Command through which the Godhead originates the First Intellect. However, Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani spent much time refuting the doctrine of the Divine Command. He clarified that the First Intellect(Universal Intellect) and the Command are one and the same thing. In other words, the Ibda (Origination) and the Mubda (Originated) are one and the same.
Nasiruddin al-Tusi puts the rank of Hujjat higher than that of the Prophet. I myself cannot agree with this sort of thing, even though the post-Alamut Ismailies had such tendencies. On the other hand, al-Sijistani and Khusraw placed the rank of Natiq/Prophet over that of the Imam, and separated the rank of Ali (Asas) and the later Imams.
Regarding Nagib's view, I find it hard to make sense of the notion of Imam as the mazhar of the supreme Godhead/Essence, since the Essence in unintelligible and without attributes, how can it have a physical epiphany (with forms and attributes) without first having a spiritual epiphany (with forms and attributes)?
In my view:
Universal Intellect (Allah/Ali with attributes) ------ Imam
Universal Soul (Muhammad with feminine attributes) ----- Prophet/Pir
and so on....
At least Pir Sadardin is from my opinion that Imam is higher then the God with Attributes [Brahma].kandani wrote:Nagib Tajdin's view:
Supreme Godhead/Divine Essence ---------- Imam
First Intellect (Allah with attributes) ------ Prophet/Pir
....
Nasiruddin al-Tusi puts the rank of Hujjat higher than that of the Prophet. I myself cannot agree with this sort of thing, even though the post-Alamut Ismailies had such tendencies. .
And obviously I agree with Tussi that the rank of Hujjat is higher than that of Prophet [though some prophet after death have become one with Allah, therefore reaching the level of Hujjat]
Oh yes, not to mention that according to Massigon, Mansur al-Hallaj [though not Ismaili] was probably executed not only because of his "Anal Haqq" declaration but because his hierarchy was Ali, Salman, Muhammad with which obviously the majority Muslims disagreed ans which they said was an influence of the Ismailis on Hallaj....
In my understanding, Pir Sadardin equates Brahma with Muhammad (Pir) and Vishnu with Ali (Imam).
Doesnt Vishnu also possess attributes (although he is 'higher' than Brahma)?
We seem to have different understandings of the term Hujjat. I assume you use Hujjat and Pir and Imam Mustawda synonomously. For me, Pir is the bearer of the Light of Muhammad, and Hujjat is one of the 24 chiefs around the world who receives tayid from Imam of the Time.
Doesnt Vishnu also possess attributes (although he is 'higher' than Brahma)?
We seem to have different understandings of the term Hujjat. I assume you use Hujjat and Pir and Imam Mustawda synonomously. For me, Pir is the bearer of the Light of Muhammad, and Hujjat is one of the 24 chiefs around the world who receives tayid from Imam of the Time.
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farhatnoorali
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we left the topic behind thouh i have few question and clarifications to ask.I know what is natiq and assas .As it has been said that every prophet has one imam with him is it ,and one of them is natiq and assas as Ali A.S is the Quran natiq... but can nay o­ne explain how it collabroate with universal , first , second, third intellect or soul or jadd.. is nt Imam is same as natiq.. who are the hujjats and bab..
During the beginning of each religious cycle, there is a Speaking Prophet - who is called a Natiq (which means Proclaimer) and there is an Imam who helps him - called the Asas (which means Foundation).
In a DIFFERENT context, the Asas/Imam is said to be the Quran-e Natiq, which means the Speaking Quran.
In the context of religious hierarchy, in my personal views:
First Intellect correspond with the Asas/Imam
Second Intellect with Natiq/Pir
Third Intellect with Bab
Fourth Intellect with Hujjats
and so on....
In a DIFFERENT context, the Asas/Imam is said to be the Quran-e Natiq, which means the Speaking Quran.
In the context of religious hierarchy, in my personal views:
First Intellect correspond with the Asas/Imam
Second Intellect with Natiq/Pir
Third Intellect with Bab
Fourth Intellect with Hujjats
and so on....
I guess you mean the 12 Hujjats in charge of the 12 geographical areas called "12 Jazirah"kandani wrote:Hujjat is one of the 24 chiefs around the world who receives tayid from Imam of the Time.
You mean the 12 hujjats who accompanied the Hujjat-ul-Imam named Pir Sadardin... or in the sense small hujjats [not hujjat-ul-Imam / Pir]
Yes, each Jazirah has one Hujjat of the Day (manifest Hujjat) and one Hujjat of the Night (Concealed Hujjat), for a total of 24 Hujjats.
They all answer to the Bab (Gate) of Imam, who is called the Great Hujjat (ie: Hassan Sabbah, Muayyudin al-Shirazni, Salman Farsi).
Bab answers to the Pir (ie: Prophet Muhammad, Pir Sadardin, etc).
They all answer to the Bab (Gate) of Imam, who is called the Great Hujjat (ie: Hassan Sabbah, Muayyudin al-Shirazni, Salman Farsi).
Bab answers to the Pir (ie: Prophet Muhammad, Pir Sadardin, etc).
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farhatnoorali
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- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:37 pm
- Location: USA
Mode of Dawa Today
The mode of propagation (Dawwah) is different today than that of the Fatimid Period. At that time there was an elaborate system of Dawwah which necessitated hierarchies for efficient propagation of the Ismaili faith. Today we do not have that system and in view of altered circumstances i.e., advances in technology, we may never have the same structure (at least at the physical level).farhatnoorali wrote:Who are these hujjats, jaziras and bab as of today
Also we must realise that from the Zaheri point of view, MHI expresses himself as the interpreter of faith. That would correspond to the Fatimid idea of asas (lmam being lower than the prophet). From the Batini aspect he is higher than the prophet and holds both positions by virtue of appointment as the Imam and Pir.
The other issue that we may want to reflect upon is how does this diversity of thought strengthen our Jamat and what are its implications as the Jamats with diverse historical backgounds come together?
Mode of Dawa Today
The mode of propagation (Dawwah) is different today than that of the Fatimid Period. At that time there was an elaborate system of Dawwah which necessitated hierarchies for efficient propagation of the Ismaili faith. Today we do not have that system and in view of altered circumstances i.e., advances in technology, we may never have the same structure (at least at the physical level).farhatnoorali wrote:Who are these hujjats, jaziras and bab as of today
Also we must realise that from the Zaheri point of view, MHI expresses himself as the interpreter of faith. That would correspond to the Fatimid idea of asas (lmam being lower than the prophet). From the Batini aspect he is higher than the prophet and holds both positions by virtue of appointment as the Imam and Pir.
The other issue that we may want to reflect upon is how does this diversity of thought strengthen our Jamat and what are its implications as the Jamats with diverse historical backgounds come together?
Mazhar-i-dhat-illahi - Imam
In one of his Hidayats to the Tariqah Board (then Ismailia Association), MHI stated that the Imam is the Mazhar-i-dhat Illahi which means He is the locus of the manifestation of the essence of God (beyond causality and form).
Nasiruddin Tusi in his book "Contemplation and Action" (sections 31,32 and 33) explains that Allah in his essence is beyond cause and effect. In order for Him to have a connection with his creation in the form of cause and effect, he has to manifest himself as Kalimah, Command or word which is the primal cause. The first intellect is the first effect (sifat manifest in space, time and causality, hence the Creator). The Imam is the mazhar of the Divine word (kalimah- dhat unmanifest).
In my opinion this is close to the definition of MHI.
The Mazhar of the first effect or intellect in my opinion would be the Pir. I do not think that any of the classical thinkers had an understanding of the eternal nature of prophethood. All they really knew was the prophet as a law giver and not the eternal aspect as implied by Nur-e-Nabuwahh (light of bhrama). Even in his discussion about the universal soul, he links it to the prophet as a law giver. Because Tusi did not have this clear view of the eternity of prophethood, he used the notion of the Hujjat as the first effect which in my opinion is a bridge between the notion of the prophethood as implied by the law giver and the eternal Pir. Hence he gave a higher status to the Hujjat who would always be there as opposed the the law giver prophet.
Nasiruddin Tusi in his book "Contemplation and Action" (sections 31,32 and 33) explains that Allah in his essence is beyond cause and effect. In order for Him to have a connection with his creation in the form of cause and effect, he has to manifest himself as Kalimah, Command or word which is the primal cause. The first intellect is the first effect (sifat manifest in space, time and causality, hence the Creator). The Imam is the mazhar of the Divine word (kalimah- dhat unmanifest).
In my opinion this is close to the definition of MHI.
The Mazhar of the first effect or intellect in my opinion would be the Pir. I do not think that any of the classical thinkers had an understanding of the eternal nature of prophethood. All they really knew was the prophet as a law giver and not the eternal aspect as implied by Nur-e-Nabuwahh (light of bhrama). Even in his discussion about the universal soul, he links it to the prophet as a law giver. Because Tusi did not have this clear view of the eternity of prophethood, he used the notion of the Hujjat as the first effect which in my opinion is a bridge between the notion of the prophethood as implied by the law giver and the eternal Pir. Hence he gave a higher status to the Hujjat who would always be there as opposed the the law giver prophet.
Thanks for the input. I would be very interested in seeing this hidayat.
If that is true, then why does MHI in his BUK Farmans make a distinction between "He who is above all else" (the Essence) and the Light of Ali if they are the same thing?
Personally, I do not believe Imam would endorse one interpretation over another because that would impede the diversity in Ismaili thought.
Also, how does linking the Piratan/Prophethood to the Universal Soul compromise the eternality of the Prophet? The Universal Soul is still an exalted spiritual being.
If that is true, then why does MHI in his BUK Farmans make a distinction between "He who is above all else" (the Essence) and the Light of Ali if they are the same thing?
Personally, I do not believe Imam would endorse one interpretation over another because that would impede the diversity in Ismaili thought.
Also, how does linking the Piratan/Prophethood to the Universal Soul compromise the eternality of the Prophet? The Universal Soul is still an exalted spiritual being.
Further....
In my thought at least, the First Intellect and the supreme Godhead possess the same Essence. Also, the Kalimat and the First Intellect are one and the same thing.
That being said, then i would say our interpretations between myself, Nagib and yourself, are not that far apart after all.
Nagib says Imam is the mazhar of Essence. You say Imam is mazhar of Command (which includes Essence) and I say Imam is mazhar of the Aql (which includes Command and Essence).
So we are not that different after all.
In my thought at least, the First Intellect and the supreme Godhead possess the same Essence. Also, the Kalimat and the First Intellect are one and the same thing.
That being said, then i would say our interpretations between myself, Nagib and yourself, are not that far apart after all.
Nagib says Imam is the mazhar of Essence. You say Imam is mazhar of Command (which includes Essence) and I say Imam is mazhar of the Aql (which includes Command and Essence).
So we are not that different after all.
Mazhar
This is indeed an interesting subject to discuss!
I heard the Hidayat from one of the participants of the conference where it was given. I am sure about it and you may get confirmation about it from other sources.
As I reflect further upon Imam's definition, I can see the wisdom about him being specific about the type of Mazhar, i.e., the dhati aspect of Allah. As we learn from modern science, the notions of space, time and even causality assume different meanings when dealing with different 'frames of reference'. These keep changing constantly (an indication that we are in Dua Pur Jug!). Therefore the Sifati aspect will change.
When I said that the Imam was Mazhar-i-kalima, I was perhaps alluding to the 'cause and effect' paradigm as was applicable in Tusi's philosophical/rational context. In that situation the Imam was the first cause. But that paradigm can change so I am probably incorrect. Only Nagib's view seems to be correct. Mazhar-i-Kaima is technically sifati.
When I said that the Pir was the first effect, it was applicable only in the paradigm alluded above. Perhaps a more accurate definition of the Pir( the Creator) would be the mazhar of the first 'Sifati' paradigm, whatever that paradigm may be now or in future.
This brings me back to how our Jamat can derive strength from diversity of thought. Different systems of thought allude to the fact that they are not absolute systems, rather they are relative to the 'frame of refernce'. They are conditioned by the political/social/philosophical and general historical circumstances. This I believe is strength because it gives us flexibility to adopt any system depending upon the context. In the Fatimid period we are talking about a 'frame of reference' that entailed an exoteric mode of political and military power. In the Alumut Period we are talking about a more esoteric 'frame of refernce' and hence a difference in thought.
For example in a Zaheri context MHI refers himself as being the interpreter of faith which would correspond to the asas of the Faimid Period. In a Batini context he refers himself as a Mazhar-i-dhati which nearly equals to Tusi's thought. Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience.
"If that is true, then why does MHI in his BUK Farmans make a distinction between "He who is above all else" (the Essence) and the Light of Ali if they are the same thing?"
The distinction in BUK firmans in my opinion is due to the fact that he has a dual role of the Imam and the Pir. The Noor refers to NureNaboowa defining his role as a Pir. According to traditions, he makes firmans as a Pir and not an Imam. It is the role of the Pir to interprete the kalima and propagate it according to the level of the audience.
"Also, how does linking the Piratan/Prophethood to the Universal Soul compromise the eternality of the Prophet? The Universal Soul is still an exalted spiritual being."
It is not linking Piratan/Prophethood to the universal soul that I am referring to, rather it is linking the Prophet the law giver to universal soul that compromises the eternality, in the sense that it is not treated as a permanent institution in a way that Imamat is in Tusi's thought for example. To clarify the point, I am not sure whether Tusi new who the Pir was during his period.
These are all my views.
I heard the Hidayat from one of the participants of the conference where it was given. I am sure about it and you may get confirmation about it from other sources.
As I reflect further upon Imam's definition, I can see the wisdom about him being specific about the type of Mazhar, i.e., the dhati aspect of Allah. As we learn from modern science, the notions of space, time and even causality assume different meanings when dealing with different 'frames of reference'. These keep changing constantly (an indication that we are in Dua Pur Jug!). Therefore the Sifati aspect will change.
When I said that the Imam was Mazhar-i-kalima, I was perhaps alluding to the 'cause and effect' paradigm as was applicable in Tusi's philosophical/rational context. In that situation the Imam was the first cause. But that paradigm can change so I am probably incorrect. Only Nagib's view seems to be correct. Mazhar-i-Kaima is technically sifati.
When I said that the Pir was the first effect, it was applicable only in the paradigm alluded above. Perhaps a more accurate definition of the Pir( the Creator) would be the mazhar of the first 'Sifati' paradigm, whatever that paradigm may be now or in future.
This brings me back to how our Jamat can derive strength from diversity of thought. Different systems of thought allude to the fact that they are not absolute systems, rather they are relative to the 'frame of refernce'. They are conditioned by the political/social/philosophical and general historical circumstances. This I believe is strength because it gives us flexibility to adopt any system depending upon the context. In the Fatimid period we are talking about a 'frame of reference' that entailed an exoteric mode of political and military power. In the Alumut Period we are talking about a more esoteric 'frame of refernce' and hence a difference in thought.
For example in a Zaheri context MHI refers himself as being the interpreter of faith which would correspond to the asas of the Faimid Period. In a Batini context he refers himself as a Mazhar-i-dhati which nearly equals to Tusi's thought. Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience.
"If that is true, then why does MHI in his BUK Farmans make a distinction between "He who is above all else" (the Essence) and the Light of Ali if they are the same thing?"
The distinction in BUK firmans in my opinion is due to the fact that he has a dual role of the Imam and the Pir. The Noor refers to NureNaboowa defining his role as a Pir. According to traditions, he makes firmans as a Pir and not an Imam. It is the role of the Pir to interprete the kalima and propagate it according to the level of the audience.
"Also, how does linking the Piratan/Prophethood to the Universal Soul compromise the eternality of the Prophet? The Universal Soul is still an exalted spiritual being."
It is not linking Piratan/Prophethood to the universal soul that I am referring to, rather it is linking the Prophet the law giver to universal soul that compromises the eternality, in the sense that it is not treated as a permanent institution in a way that Imamat is in Tusi's thought for example. To clarify the point, I am not sure whether Tusi new who the Pir was during his period.
These are all my views.
"This brings me back to how our Jamat can derive strength from diversity of thought. Different systems of thought allude to the fact that they are not absolute systems, rather they are relative to the 'frame of refernce'. They are conditioned by the political/social/philosophical and general historical circumstances. This I believe is strength because it gives us flexibility to adopt any system depending upon the context. In the Fatimid period we are talking about a 'frame of reference' that entailed an exoteric mode of political and military power. In the Alumut Period we are talking about a more esoteric 'frame of refernce' and hence a difference in thought. "
- I compltely agree with you here. The pHilosophy is constructed taking all these other factors in mind.
"As I reflect further upon Imam's definition, I can see the wisdom about him being specific about the type of Mazhar, i.e., the dhati aspect of Allah. As we learn from modern science, the notions of space, time and even causality assume different meanings when dealing with different 'frames of reference'. These keep changing constantly (an indication that we are in Dua Pur Jug!). Therefore the Sifati aspect will change.
When I said that the Imam was Mazhar-i-kalima, I was perhaps alluding to the 'cause and effect' paradigm as was applicable in Tusi's philosophical/rational context. In that situation the Imam was the first cause. But that paradigm can change so I am probably incorrect. Only Nagib's view seems to be correct. Mazhar-i-Kaima is technically sifati."
- I have to disagree with you here. The Sifati aspect (Allah with Attributes) is NOT subject to change. The Divine Attributes are eternal as is the First Intellect. Even with different frames of reference, the Allah of the Zahiri frame of reference and the Allah of the batini frame of reference is the same thing. The Sifati is only different from the Zati in terms of manifestation, not of Essence.
- In my thoughts, the Godhead/Essence possesses what can be called instrinsic attributes such as "Not, not merciful", "Not, not transcendant", or "Not, not powerful". The First Intellect/Allah has extrinsic attributes such as Most Merciful, Transcendant or Most Powerful. The Quran outlines and mentions these important attributes.
"The distinction in BUK firmans in my opinion is due to the fact that he has a dual role of the Imam and the Pir. The Noor refers to NureNaboowa defining his role as a Pir. According to traditions, he makes firmans as a Pir and not an Imam. It is the role of the Pir to interprete the kalima and propagate it according to the level of the audience. "
- I must disagree here on your interpration of the Farman. MHI clearly says the Light of ALI and the Light of IMAMATE. When talking about Light, he is NOT alluding to the Piratan, or else he would have said, "Light of Muhammad and Light of Piratan". Also, in the BUK role, it is the Imam who makes farmans because his primary function is the Esoteric dimension of the faith while the Pir looks after the exoteric dimension.
I admit that from a Zhati point of view only, Imam is the Essence/Godhead. But we must keep in mind that the Essence and the Light/First Intellect are not in a hierarchy but in different Realms or Words. The World of Essence is called the Hahut and the World of Divinity is called the Lahut. Imam is present in both planes, as Essence in the Hahut and as the First Intellect in the Lahut. He is also present in the Jabarut (Lordship), Malakut (Imaginal), and the Nasut (Sensible). Each of us also is present in each of these Realms, though we may not be aware of it.
"It is not linking Piratan/Prophethood to the universal soul that I am referring to, rather it is linking the Prophet the law giver to universal soul that compromises the eternality, in the sense that it is not treated as a permanent institution in a way that Imamat is in Tusi's thought for example. To clarify the point, I am not sure whether Tusi new who the Pir was during his period. "
- Yes, it appears the Fatimids and Alamut Ismailies did not know or affirm the eternality of the Prophethood/Piratan. HOwever, they had developed a primitive notion of Pir in the figure of the Hujjat. This Hujjat, whom they had identified with Salman Farsi (not Prophet Muhammad) and others (who were not Pirs) seems to have some of the reverence and function due to the Pir. I beleive the Indian tradition was the final "Revelation" in the concept of Piratan which cleared stuff up. That being said, in my personal thought, I link the Imamate to the Universal Intellect (First Intelligence) and the Piratan to the Universal Soul (Second Intelligence).
- I compltely agree with you here. The pHilosophy is constructed taking all these other factors in mind.
"As I reflect further upon Imam's definition, I can see the wisdom about him being specific about the type of Mazhar, i.e., the dhati aspect of Allah. As we learn from modern science, the notions of space, time and even causality assume different meanings when dealing with different 'frames of reference'. These keep changing constantly (an indication that we are in Dua Pur Jug!). Therefore the Sifati aspect will change.
When I said that the Imam was Mazhar-i-kalima, I was perhaps alluding to the 'cause and effect' paradigm as was applicable in Tusi's philosophical/rational context. In that situation the Imam was the first cause. But that paradigm can change so I am probably incorrect. Only Nagib's view seems to be correct. Mazhar-i-Kaima is technically sifati."
- I have to disagree with you here. The Sifati aspect (Allah with Attributes) is NOT subject to change. The Divine Attributes are eternal as is the First Intellect. Even with different frames of reference, the Allah of the Zahiri frame of reference and the Allah of the batini frame of reference is the same thing. The Sifati is only different from the Zati in terms of manifestation, not of Essence.
- In my thoughts, the Godhead/Essence possesses what can be called instrinsic attributes such as "Not, not merciful", "Not, not transcendant", or "Not, not powerful". The First Intellect/Allah has extrinsic attributes such as Most Merciful, Transcendant or Most Powerful. The Quran outlines and mentions these important attributes.
"The distinction in BUK firmans in my opinion is due to the fact that he has a dual role of the Imam and the Pir. The Noor refers to NureNaboowa defining his role as a Pir. According to traditions, he makes firmans as a Pir and not an Imam. It is the role of the Pir to interprete the kalima and propagate it according to the level of the audience. "
- I must disagree here on your interpration of the Farman. MHI clearly says the Light of ALI and the Light of IMAMATE. When talking about Light, he is NOT alluding to the Piratan, or else he would have said, "Light of Muhammad and Light of Piratan". Also, in the BUK role, it is the Imam who makes farmans because his primary function is the Esoteric dimension of the faith while the Pir looks after the exoteric dimension.
I admit that from a Zhati point of view only, Imam is the Essence/Godhead. But we must keep in mind that the Essence and the Light/First Intellect are not in a hierarchy but in different Realms or Words. The World of Essence is called the Hahut and the World of Divinity is called the Lahut. Imam is present in both planes, as Essence in the Hahut and as the First Intellect in the Lahut. He is also present in the Jabarut (Lordship), Malakut (Imaginal), and the Nasut (Sensible). Each of us also is present in each of these Realms, though we may not be aware of it.
"It is not linking Piratan/Prophethood to the universal soul that I am referring to, rather it is linking the Prophet the law giver to universal soul that compromises the eternality, in the sense that it is not treated as a permanent institution in a way that Imamat is in Tusi's thought for example. To clarify the point, I am not sure whether Tusi new who the Pir was during his period. "
- Yes, it appears the Fatimids and Alamut Ismailies did not know or affirm the eternality of the Prophethood/Piratan. HOwever, they had developed a primitive notion of Pir in the figure of the Hujjat. This Hujjat, whom they had identified with Salman Farsi (not Prophet Muhammad) and others (who were not Pirs) seems to have some of the reverence and function due to the Pir. I beleive the Indian tradition was the final "Revelation" in the concept of Piratan which cleared stuff up. That being said, in my personal thought, I link the Imamate to the Universal Intellect (First Intelligence) and the Piratan to the Universal Soul (Second Intelligence).