Sahabae Karam and their conspiracies

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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shiraz.virani
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Post by shiraz.virani »

To which book is the expression People of the Book refering to?


In Islam, the Quran is taken to represent the completion of the previous scriptures, and to synthesize them as God's true, final, and eternal message to humanity. Because the People of the Bookrecognize the God of Abraham as the one and only god, as do Muslims, and they practice revealed faiths based on divine ordinances, tolerance and autonomy is accorded to them in societies governed by sharia (Islamic divine law).

In Judaism the term "People of the Book" (Hebrew:Am HaSefer) subsequently became self-applied to refer specifically to the Jewish people and the Torah; also the Jewish people and the wider canon of written Jewish law (including the Mishnah and the Talmud). In the Jewish tradition's use of the term there is generally no connotation as to the nature of Judaism's relationship with other faiths.

However, the reference in the Qur'an is not to be confused with the present day versions of these Books. Rather, it is attributed to the Torah that Moses was given, the Psalms that David was given, and the Gospel that Jesus was given; that which we have present today is not considered to be the original source

In the classical understanding, the People of the Book are those whose faiths share the following qualities:

They practice Tawhid (monotheism).
They recognize life after death, judgment, Heaven, and the existence of angels.
They usually recognize Satan and Hell, and they have many similar eschatological beliefs.
They share some of the same prophets, such as Moses.
They have similar beliefs regarding the creation, specifically, in the lives of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
The term "People of the Book" is thus taken in classical orthodox Islam to refer to followers of monotheistic Abrahamic religions which are older than Islam. This includes all Christians, all Jews (including Karaites and Samaritans), and Sabians (a Qur'anic term interpreted[citation needed] to refer to the Mandaeans).

Many early Islamic scholars, such as Malik ibn Anas, agreed that Zoroastrians should also be included.[citation needed] Zoroastrianism is believed by scholars and historians to have been founded between 1000 BCE and 600 BCE making it older than Christianity and Islam. It shares similar eschatological views with Christianity and Islam, and recognizes life after death, Satan (as Angra Mainyu), Heaven, and Hell. There is no official Zoroastrian viewpoint regarding Adam and Eve or Moses. Most Shi'a Muslims accept Zoroastrians as People of the Book.

Generally speaking, only pre-Islamic religions are considered to be the religions of the Book. This is because Muhammad is viewed in Islam as the seal of the prophets, the final prophet that God will ever send to humanity for all time. This means that post-Islamic faiths are not considered religions of the Book in the classical sense, even if they are revealed, scriptural, monotheistic, and/or Abrahamic.

Sikhism is not considered to be a religion of the book, as it rejects the concept of the Devil, angels and the concept of Adam and Eve. It also post-dates Muhammad.

Buddhism does not explicitly recognize a God, or the concept of prophethood. However, there is no official Buddhist view of God, and Buddhism does not specifically oppose monotheism. Brahman is recognised as the supreme Deva. However, it is explicitly stated in sutra that deva, including supreme Brahman is insufficient (or irrelevant or inferior) to attainment of enlightenment, as they are still trapped in cycle of rebirth. Moreover, Buddhism does not recognize God in the sense of Creator.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur'an 29:46]

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn.(3:113-115)

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur'an 3:64]

Does it not refer to the eternal Quran that is with God?
this is my opinion and i might wrong , brother naqib ,allah[swt] does not need the quran to guide himself nor do he have to hide it ! he is its creator....he sent sooo many prophets along with holy books but only with 1 important message i.e belief in one god = allah[swt] ....he created channels for himself through which we can see him/find him/worship him
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shiraz.virani wrote:
To which book is the expression People of the Book refering to?

In the LBC interview (at http://ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcenglish.html) , MHI specifically talks about the “People of the Book”, within the context of pluralism:

"LBC: Yes, but is there a place in the Islamic World for the other religions?

AK: Oh, for sure! Islam is a faith that recognises the preceding monotheistic interpretations, Judaism and Christianity, called the "People of the Book". It is one Book. So for me there is no doubt whatsoever. "


So which is the one Book? It is certainly not the one compiled by Uthman.

Could the Book be the archetypal one underlying all books? And wouldn’t that be the the one we refer to as the Speaking Quran and which is the complete one encompassing all books.
binom
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

So which is the one Book? It is certainly not the one compiled by Uthman.


On what basis do you make this claim? If, for the sake of argument, we were to suppose that what you say is correct, then by what criterion do you judge the verses of the Qur'an that allude to the family of the Prophet (saw) or Imam Ali's succession as valid? How do you know that many or all those verses that deal with that issue are not themselves corrupt as well? By what criterion are you able to make the judgment that 'these verses are currupt and those ones are not'? I also ask you these same questions with regards to the hadith literature.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote: On what basis do you make this claim? If, for the sake of argument, we were to suppose that what you say is correct, then by what criterion do you judge the verses of the Qur'an that allude to the family of the Prophet (saw) or Imam Ali's succession as valid? How do you know that many or all those verses that deal with that issue are not themselves corrupt as well? By what criterion are you able to make the judgment that 'these verses are currupt and those ones are not'? I also ask you these same questions with regards to the hadith literature.
I make the claim on the basis that the Christians and the Jews are considered as the people of the book. If that is the case and there is only one book as per the statement of the Imam, then they did not follow the Quran as compiled by Uthman....

The criteria I use to judge the validity of any verse is the tafsir as reflected in the Farmans and the Ginans. That is the reason we need the Imam to provide authoritative interpretation.

The hadith literature generally is a weak source of guidance due to the issue with isnads (chains of transmissions). Unless a hadith is confirmed by the Imam, it's validity is questionable.
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

nagib wrote:To which book is the expression People of the Book refering to?

The Book you are referring to did not exist and was not compiled.

Does it not refer to the eternal Quran that is with God?

When this expression was used, was the present compilation in existence?

Are Christian and Jews believing in any such book compiled after the death of our Prophet [PBUH]

Are they not also People of the Book?

Questions to ponder.

3:23. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).

Yusuf Ali: A portion of the Book. I conceive that Allah's revelation as a whole throughout the ages is "The Book". The Law of Moses, and the Gospel of Jesus were portions of the Book. The Qur'an completes the revelation and is par excellence the Book of Allah.

13:39. Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

Yusuf Ali: Umm-ul-Kitab: Mother of the Book: the original foundation of all revelation; the Essence of Allah's Will and Law. Cf. iii. 7, and
n. 347
znanwalla
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Ali vs. truth (right path):
===========================
In some versions of the Tradition of Ghadir Khum there is an extra sentence that is he (Prophet) (PBUH&HF) said:

Wa dara al-haqq maahu haithu dar, literally: And the truth (the
right path) turns with him (i.e. Ali) wherever way he turns.

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the
commentary of al-Bismilah.

Similarly in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, it is narrated that:

The Messenger of God said: O God, have Thy Mercy on Ali. O God,
make the right and the truth with Ali in all situations.

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297

In Arabic, linguistically, the wording (balagha) could play tricks on the
listener.

Logically, truth is absolute and not variable.

Imam Ali is placed as the absolute fixed
axes around which the event is taking place; such that, if anything changes in the persons decision, the event is the thing that will change its track, truth in this case!!!

*************************************
Comments:

Due to the absolute nature of truth, one can conclude that the two are
are inseparable....

(Now Quran is the TRUTH for all muslims except the Munafiqun who betrayed not only the Prophet but also rejected the Book he sent them...instead they created their own variable and interpolated texts and called it ' the Quran" - at best it is a "like thereof"...the quran and the Ahl al Bayt are two inseparable entities and they will remain together until the day of Judgment...)

Hence, Ali (AS) stands for truth at all times...

***************************************************

Thus the saying of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is a metaphoric way to stress
Ali's importance and attachment to the truth (right path) such that
Ali (AS) and the right path are indistinguishable....the quran as per Sura Yaseen is encompassed in the MANIFEST Imam ! Manifest means what is apparent and visible - it is the opposite of "hidden"

Whereas, if we put in the reverse order (i.e. Ali turns with truth) it
would leave room, theoretically, for Ali to make other possible turns, by
virtue of Ali being the moving object.

This would sound weaker, and would
imply the nature of a non-infallible person...

****************************************************
Comments:

It is the Truth which follows Ali and Ali with with the Quran and Quran is with Ali !

Islam is Ali ! and Ali is Islam !

The Kaaba which the muslims face and circum ambulate is the birthplace of Ali (AS)....not only that but he died therein many years later....it is the holy shrine of Ali and also an ancient mosque....serves as Ali's intercession also for the muslims...the 'al - wasila"


===============================================
The chains (asnad) of narrations of Ghadir Khum
===============================================
The importance of the tradition of Ghadir Khum in history is reflected in
its widespread documentation and mentioned by the multitude of
personalities over the centuries.

Although, some trivialized, only listed
the occurrence among the historical events without giving it a thought, or
discussed the matter in a mixture of emotional judgments, none could deny the authenticity of these narrations.

The essence of what the Messenger of
Allah (PBUH&HF) delivered on the day of Ghadir was not disputed among any, even if they disagreed on its interpretation, for reasons obvious to
the alert.

Let us look at the lists of some of the Sunni traditions, commentators, and
historians who have documented the tradition of Ghadir Khum in
chronological order:
==============================================================
Sunni Traditionists who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
==============================================================
1. Mohammed Ibn Idris al-Shafii (Imam al-Shafii, d. 204) per
al-Nihayah by Ibn al-Athir
2. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Imam al-Hanbali, d. 241), in Masnad and al-Manaqib
3. Ibn Majah (d. 273), in Sunan Ibn Majah
4. al-Tirmidhi (d. 279), in Sahih al-Tirmidhi
5. al-Nisai (d. 303), in al-Khasais
6. Abu-Yala al-Mousilli (d. 307), in al-Masnad
7. al-Baghawi (d. 317), in al-Sunan
8. al-Doolabi (d. 320), in al-Kuna wal Asmaa
9. al-Tahawi (d. 321), in Mushkil al-Athar
10. al-Hakim (d. 405), in al-Mustadrak
11. Ibn al-Maghazili al-Shafii (d. 483), in al-Manaqib
12. Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 505), in Sirrul `Alamayn
13. Ibn Mindah al-Asbahani (d. 512), in his book
14. al-Khatib al-Khawarizmi (d. 568), in al-Manaqib and Maqtal al-Imam
al-Sibt
15. Abul Faraj Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597), in Manaqib
16. al-Ganji al-Shafii (d. 658), in Kifayat al-Talib
17. Muhib al-Din al-Tabari (d. 694), in al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah and
Dhakhair al-Aqabi
18. al-Hamawainy (d. 722), in Faraid al-Samdtin
19. al-Dhahabi (d. 748), in al-Talkhis
20. al-Khatib al-Tabrizi (d. 8th century), in Mishkat al-Masabih
21. al-Haythami (d. 807), in Majma al-Zawaid
22. al-Jazri (d. 830), in Asna al-Matalib
23. Abul Abbas al-Qastalani (d. 923), in al-Mawahib al-Ladaniya
24. al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975), in Kanz al-Ummal
25. Abdul Haqq al-Dihlawi, in Sharh al-Mishkat
26. al-Hurawi al-Qari (d. 1014), in al-Muraqat fi Sharh al-Mishkat
27. Taj al-Din al-Manawi (d. 1031), in Kunooz al-Haqaiq fi Hadith
Khair al-Khalaiq and Faidh al-Qadir
28. al-Shaikhani al-Qadiri, in al-Siratul Sawi fi Manaqib Aal al-Nabi
29. Ba Kathir al-Makki (d. 1047), in Wasilatul Amal fi Manaqib al-Aal
30. Abu-Abdullah al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122), in Sharh al-Mawahib
31. Ibn Hamzah al-Dimashqi al-Hanafi, in al-Bayan wal Taarif
and many others.
=====================================================
Sunni Commentators of Quran who mentioned Ghadir Khum
=====================================================
The following Sunni commentators mentioned that one or some or all of
the mentioned verses of Quran (such as [5:67] which was about the Allahs
order to Prophet for announcement of appointment of Ali, [5:3] which was
about completeness of religion, and [70:1] which was about the curse of
a person who became angry at the Prophet for this announcement) were
reported to have been revealed in the event of Ghadir Khum:

1. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in Tafsir al-Bayan
2. al-Jassas (d. 370), in Ahkam al-Quran
3. al-Hafiz Abu Nuaym (d. 430), in Asbab al-Nuzool
4. al-Thalabi (d. 427 or 437), in Tafsir al-Thalabi
5. al-Wahidi (d. 468), in Asbab al-Nuzool
6. al-Qurtubi (d. 568), in Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran
7. al-Fakhr al-Razi (d. 606), in al-Tafsir al-Kabir
8. al-Khazin Baghdadi (d. 741), in Tafsir al-Khazin
9. al-Nisaboori (8th century), in Tafsir al-Nisaboori
10. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in his Tafsir (complete version) under the verse
5:3 (It is ommitted in coincise version!) narrated from Ibn Mardawayh.
11. al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti (d. 910), in his Tafsir
12. al-Khatib al-Sharbini, in his Tafsir
13. Abu al-Saud al-Hanafi (d. 972), in his Tafsir
14. al-Aloosi al-Baghdadi (d. 1270), in his Tafsir
and many others.
===========================================================
Sunni Historians who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
===========================================================
1. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276), in Maarif and Imamah wal Siyasah
2. al-Baladhuri (d. 279), in Ansab al-ashraf
3. Ibn Zawlaq al-Laithi al-Misri (d. 287), in his book
4. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in an exclussive book Kitabul Wilayah
5. al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463), in Tarikh Baghdad
6. Ibn Abd al-Bar (d. 463), in al-Istiab
7. al-Shahristani (d. 548), in al-Milal wal Nihal
8. Ibn Asakir (d. 571), in Tarikh Ibn Asakir and Yaqoot al-Hamawi
9. Ibn al-Athir (d. 630), in Usd al-Ghabah
10. Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 654), in Tadhkirat Khawas al-Ummah
11. Ibn Abi al-Hadid (d. 656), in Sharh Nahjul Balagha
12. Ibn Khalkan (d. 681), in Tarikh Ibn Khalkan
13. Abul Fida (d. 732), in his Tarikh
14. al-Dhahabi (d. 748) , in Tadhkirat al-Huffadh
15. al-Yafii (d. 768), in Miraat al-Jinan
16. Ibn al-Shaikh al-Balawi, in Alef Baa
17. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in al-Bidayah wal Nihayah
18. Ibn Khaldoon (d. 808), in al-Muqaddimah
19. al-Nuwairi (d. ~833), in Nihayat al-Irab fi Finoon al-Adab
20. al-Maqrizi
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »



There are many ahadith in both Sunni and Sh'ia sources that speak of Ali being in Firdausu I Jannah !

Ibn Hajar said in his book As Sawaaiqui I Muhriqah - page 96 (Egyptian edition)that Ad-Daylaamiy mentions a ahadith of the Prophet ..

" O! Ali, Allah has forgiven you, your progeny, your wives and your Sh'ia..be delighted !" Also Ad-Daylaamiy records..."O! Ali, you and your Sh'ia will come to me at the pond in paradise quenched with shining faces..."

The Prophet (s) said, "Fatima is part of me - whatever makes her angry makes me angry, and whatever pleases her pleases me." Sahih-Bukhari, Al-Sawaiq Al-Muhariqa, p. 188; similar wording is narrated in Mustadrak Al-Sahihain, v. 3, p. 172; Al-Jami^ Al-Sagheer, v. 2, p. 653, n. 5859.

Then Bibi Fatima (a.s.) addressed the people gathered in the mosque delivering her sermon "in the mosque" and said:

You are Allah's servants, who are ordered to carry out His commands for what is obligatory and what is forbidden, and you are entrusted with the trusteeship of yourselves.

The leader of Truth is amongst you [meaning her husband Imam Ali
( a.s.)], and the Pledge that he has pledged with you from before (at Ghadir-e-Khum on 18th Zil-Hajj 10 A.H.)

O people, know that I am Fatimah, my father is Muhammad [SWS ].

I do not say what is wrong, and I do not transgress, the Messenger of Allah came to you from amongst yourselves; your suffering has been a heavy burden upon him, and he was very loving and compassionate towards the believers; so, if you honour, you will realize that he was my father and not the father of anyone amongst your women, and he is the brother of (Ali) to the exclusion of all the rest of your men.

When she entered in the mosque ,Bibi Fatimah, the Lady of Paradise, let out a lamentation, which made the people assembled there, weep so loudly that the mosque reverberated with the sound of their weeping.

He (Allah) has made the (Zakat) "alms", Khums obligatory as a means of cleaning your souls and for growth of your sustenance, as a means of steadfastness in sincerity, and as a means of might in your religion, and as a means of harmony for your hearts, and He has made your obedience to us [Ahlul-Bayt] obligatory as a means of organising the community properly, and has made "us religious leaders" [i.e. we Ahlul-Bayt ruling you] a source of security from disunion of the nation.

Al-Baqir said: No one can claim to
have all of the Qur'an, including its manifest aspect and hidden aspects, except the inheritors [the 'awsiya, the Imams]. (As-Saffar al-Qummi Basa'ir

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful..Ya Sin.By the wise Qur'an, Lo! thou art of those sent On a straight path, A revelation of the Mighty,the Merciful,That thou mayst warn a folk whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

Already hath the word proved true of most of them, for they believe not.

Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.

Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them), and their footprints.And all things We have kept in a MANIFEST IMAM.(12)Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them; (13)

Imam as-Sadiq said: "The Earth is never devoid of the Imam: whenever the believers advance too far, he turns them back, and whenever they fall short, he completes them." (Al-Kulayni Al-Kafi 1:178)

Imam as-Sadiq said: "I swear by Allah, that the Earth is never devoid of the hujjah. He teaches the permissible and the impermissible, and calls the people to the Path of God." (Al-Kulayni Al-Kafi 1:178

"Every Imam possesses the knowledge which is the base of the Faith of Monotheism.

This knowledge is transfered from one Imam to the other, Light-upon-Light (Nooran-ala-Noor) until the Day of Resurrection.

The Quran says...."Say [Prophet Muhammad]: this is my Path, I call [others] to Allah with sure knowledge, I and whosoever follows after me...."

Several verses in the Quran speak about the "Light" of God and "Rope" - Imamat is a continuous chain (Hablillah) since Hazrat Adam, through all the Prophets including, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and after him through the hereditary Imams.....

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Verily, Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, has placed the progeny of each prophet into his backbone (Sulb), and He, Exalted, has placed my progeny into the backbone of Ali Ibn Abi Talib..."(al-Tabarani)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said about Ahlul-Bayt:

"Do not be ahead of them for you will perish, do not turn away from them for you will perish, and do not try to teach them since they know more than you do!"

Narrated Umm Salama: The Messenger of Allah said:

"Ali is with Quran, and Quran is with Ali. They shall not separate from each other till they both return to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." (There are additional Sunni references also on the above)

6: 33 We know indeed the grief Which their words so cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, Which the wicked condemn...."..

Okay so which are the signs of Allah? ( remember "signs" is in plural)

In the "Tafsir al-Kabir",Fakhr Razi has related the said narration from "Kashshaf" and has said that based on this verse, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, and Husayn should be revered and sanctified.

He has also cited lines of verse from the Shafii' Imam, Muhammad bin Idris Shafii' (d 240 A.H.) in this regard.

A line of it is as follows: "If love for the members of the Household of the Holy Prophet is heresy, then the world should stand witness that I am a heretic."

Imam Shafii' says.."When I saw different schools of thought directing people toward the seas of ignorance and deviation, I boarded the ark of salvation in the Name of Allah.This arc is verily crystallized in the "ahl al-bayt" .

Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).

Mawaddat al-Qurba Tradition

Based on the consensus of the exegesists ("Jam`a al-Bayan" Tabari 16/25, 17; "Hilyat al-Awlia" 251/3; "Al-Mustadrak" 172/3; "Usd al-Ghabah" 367/5; "Al-Sawa'iq al-Muharaqah" 101), the following verse has been revealed about the members of the Household of the Holy Prophet (s):

"...Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives ..." 42:23)
kmaherali
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

Valani wrote: 1) This phrase speaks of "plural" and not singular that gives an indication that there can be more then o­ne U lil Amr at a time. If Allah wanted to refer to all the Imams who were to come afterwards and meant by o­nly o­ne person at a time perhaps here he would have used word for single person which would perhaps translate “the o­ne who is charged with authority among you". So the question is what our Ismaili's stance o­n this that is it possible to have another person charged with authority apart from the Imam at a time? Remember Imam SMS has praised Ghazali and Roomi and Bayazid Bastami in his farmans (they surely were not Ismailis but Imam praised them as knowledgeable persons and not ignorant) and he guided us to read them and learn.
From the perspective of our Tariqah, there can only be one holder of authority – the Shah Pir. We however acknowledge the pluralistic nature of our world and hence there are many tariqahs both within and outside Islam that have their own traditions and holders of authority. We are also encouraged to seek knowledge from wherever so long as it is done within the ethic of our faith and we do not compromise our Bayah thereby.

One of the strengths of pluralism is that contacts with the Other encourage self reflection and enhancement of the understanding of one’s own tradition. Also we have to apply our intellects to determine was valuable for us and what is not.
Valani wrote: a) Are the believers given an option to have a difference of openion (dispute) concerning any matter with the U lil Amr or we Ismailis are bound to accept whatever the U lil Amr says and follow it and disregard this Quranic verse.
In Ismaili tradition and indeed any esoteric tradition the Murshid is the infallible guide and the relationship between a murid and the Murshid is predicated upon this principle. Hence there cannot be any dispute between a murid and the Murshid. The latter’s views are binding. One can choose to leave the tariqah if he feels he disagrees with the Murshid but there is no room for dispute.
Valani wrote: b) If we do not disregard this Quranic verse: Allah asks people to refer to Allah and the messenger if they have a difference of opinion (dispute) concerning any matter with the U lil Amr and we have to refer it to Allah, do we have anything else then Quran to refer to Allah. Likewise if we have to refer to the messenger do we have anything else then Hadith or Seerat (commonly known as Sunnah)
In our Tariqah, it is the absolute prerogative of the Imam to choose verses appropriate for the context. If he chooses to ignore certain verses it is his prerogative. There is no physical authority higher then him.
binom
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:01 pm

Post by binom »

I've put the discussion this way not only in order to follow it more easily but also to make sense of what is being said.

Kmaherali wrote:
LBC: Yes, but is there a place in the Islamic World for the other religions?

AK: Oh, for sure! Islam is a faith that recognises the preceding monotheistic interpretations, Judaism and Christianity, called the "People of the Book". It is one Book. So for me there is no doubt whatsoever. "


So which is the one Book? It is certainly not the one compiled by Uthman.

Could the Book be the archetypal one underlying all books? And wouldn’t that be the the one we refer to as the Speaking Quran and which is the complete one encompassing all books.
Binom replyed:
On what basis do you make this claim? If, for the sake of argument, we were to suppose that what you say is correct, then by what criterion do you judge the verses of the Qur'an that allude to the family of the Prophet (saw) or Imam Ali's succession as valid? How do you know that many or all those verses that deal with that issue are not themselves corrupt as well? By what criterion are you able to make the judgment that 'these verses are currupt and those ones are not'? I also ask you these same questions with regards to the hadith literature.
Kmaherali replyed:
I make the claim on the basis that the Christians and the Jews are considered as the people of the book. If that is the case and there is only one book as per the statement of the Imam, then they did not follow the Quran as compiled by Uthman....
Binom replies:

Let me try and see if I’ve understood you correctly.
First of all, who is it that considers the Christians and Jews to be people of the book? Is it the present Qur’an or the Aga Khan? I assume for you it’s the latter, since if it were the former, the argument (as I understand it)you’re trying to make would be pointless. Secondly, I think you completely misunderstand what the Qur’an means when it calls Jews and Christians people of the book. You seem to follow an interpretation (perhaps your own) which has no basis neither in the Qur’an - obviously it won’t since you don’t accept it as valid anyway - nor anywhere else. Third, it does not follow from their, that is, Christians and Jews, not following the Qu’ran that they are therefore not the people of the book. They can not follow the Qur’an as the Muslims do and still be considered as the people of the Book, a term that the Qur’an itself constantly calls them by. This is related to the second point I’ve made above; to be considered as people of the book, they don’t have to follow the Qur’an as the Muslims do. You simply assume this based on your own false interpretations which have no basis not only in the Islamic tradition in general, but even in the Ismaili tradition in particular. In fact, traditional Muslim scholars, both Shi’I and Sunni, even considered the religions outside the Abrahamic family to be ahl al-kitaab when they encountered them in places like Persia and India. They understood by ahl al-kitaab something which I can’t go into right now as it would take to long. But, if you really want the explanation then let me know.

Having said that, as regards what (I think) you're actually trying to say, the main problem in your reasoning as I see it is this: You quoted your Imam earlier as saying, when asked a question about the place of other religions in Islam, “Oh, for sure! Islam is a faith that recognizes the preceding monothe[isms]…. called the "People of the Book". It is one Book…” and on the basis of his saying “it is one Book”, you conclude (or reply in your answer to me) that this one Book cannot be that of the present Qu’ran since they, the people of the Book, do not follow it. Even though this is completely false, because of the points I mentioned above, I’ll, for the sake of argument, grant it to you again. However, I ask you now the following: Why do you not apply this same fallacious method of reasoning to your own view on the matter, since it can equally apply to it as well? That is to say, just as the present Qur’an is not the “one Book” because the Christians and Jews, who are called the people of the Book, don’t follow it, the Imam, contrary to what you suggested, must also not be, in your own words, the one “archetypal [book] underlying all books,” since the Christians and Jews don’t follow him as well.

What you basically try and say can be put this way:

Premise 1: There is only ‘one Book’ (as per the Imam)
P2: Christians and Jews are people of the one Book (as per the Imam?)
P3: But, Christians and Jews don’t follow the present Qur’an
C: Therefore, the present Qur’an is not this ‘one Book’
P4: But, the Christians and Jews don’t follow the ‘speaking Qu’ran’ (Imam) as well
C: Therefore, the speaking Qur’an can’t be this ‘one Book’ too

You tell me if this is valid (I certainly know it’s not), since you seem to believe that ‘following this one book’ is a prerequisite of it being the ‘one [true] Book’ that your Imam has in mind because he calls the Christians and Jews the people of the Book, which, according to you, implies that they should follow it. However, since they, Christians and Jews, follow neither the present Qur’an nor your Imam, both must then not be this ‘one Book’. This is what your argument inevitably entails. It self-destructs, so to peak.

The criteria I use to judge the validity of any verse is the tafsir as reflected in the Farmans and the Ginans. That is the reason we need the Imam to provide authoritative interpretation.
There is one fundamental problem with this. You are guilty here of committing the petitio principii fallacy, that is, of assuming as true what you haven’t proved yet. In other words, you’re simply begging the question; the proposition that your Imam is the authoritative interpreter requires proof, but you only assume it as true without providing any. Specifically as it applies to your argument, you say that the Imam himself or his word is authoritative – alright- but how have you come to this conclusion and by what proof? Is the proof from the present Qur’an that we have, the one that you always like to qualify as ‘complied by Uthman’? If so, then my first questions remain to be answered: If, as you say, the present Qur’an is corrupt, then by what criterion do you judge the verses of the Qur'an that allude to the family of the Prophet (saw) or Imam Ali's succession as valid? How do you know that many or all those verses that deal with that issue are not themselves corrupt as well? By what criterion are you able to make the judgment that 'these verses are corrupt and those ones are not'? You cannot possibly answer “my imam” since, as I said, you haven’t proved his authority yet.

I think in believing, along with all the other Ismailis who hold the belief that the present Qur’an is corrupt, you don’t realize the fact that this most precious doctrine of yours, Imamah, is based on fundamental proofs from the Qur’an and it alone can establish it. But, if the text is corrupt, how do you know that those verses that allude to Imamah are not themselves corrupt? What is your criterion? Certainly, it’s not the Imam, since; again, you haven’t established his authority yet. The present Qur’an, in other words, must not be corrupt in any way for you to be able to justify and establish your doctrine of Imamah. Otherwise, you are just simply arguing in circles and I’m sure I don’t need to put this argument of yours in a syllogistic form as well to show you that.

The hadith literature generally is a weak source of guidance due to the issue with isnads (chains of transmissions). Unless a hadith is confirmed by the Imam, it's validity is questionable.
The points I’ve made above apply to this as well. A hadith confirms the authority of your Imam, and not the other way around. If not, then you fall into the same trap again, namely, petitio principii or of assuming the initial point (in question) i.e. your imam’s authority. So again, by what criteria do you judge certain hadiths to be true and certain false (the Muslims scholars (Sunni and Twelver Shi’i) by the way have developed an incredible science of hadith verification)?

Should you say: there are certain fundamental hadiths which prove the Imamah and, after that, the imam, which they have proved to be the rightful one, confirms the other hadiths as either true or false since his authority has been established by the first ones.
binom
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Post by binom »

I say: Fine. But, by what criterion, again, have you judged those first hadiths, that apparently set out to prove the Imamah, to be true and not false?
shiraz.virani
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm

Post by shiraz.virani »

bro meherali said :
So which is the one Book? It is certainly not the one compiled by Uthman.
it might be that what our imam was trying to say was the essence of christianity and judaism is in one book i.e QURAN[the only book that talks about christianity and judaism in detail] , dont forget that our imam used the term "MONOTHEISTIC" and not "MOSAIC", plus our imam is right when he said people of the book or the muslims are one and the same because they have the same belief !!


bro meherali said:
Could the Book be the archetypal one underlying all books? And wouldn’t that be the the one we refer to as the Speaking Quran and which is the complete one encompassing all books.
before saying something i would like to say that @ below is just my opinion and i might be wrong , i dont mean to hurt anybodies feelings ....i hope my fellow brothers will be tolerant and insha allah help me finding the answers

since past 26 years i.e right from my birth till this day i havent seen the speaking quran use any other verse[hidden as per our belief] but the verse of holy quran to mention the beauty of allah/beauty of creation etc etc , matter of fact even the verse on golden jubilee emblem was taken from holy quran !

logically speaking it was rasool[saw] who was the speaking quran because he used to get revelation in his heart and then he used to preach fellow brothers about the message...if our shia imams are speaking quran[as literally] as per our belief then..............

do we have bible and speaking bible ?

torah and speaking torah ?

zaboor and speaking zaboor ??

some questions to ponder !!

@ above is just my opinion
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Binom says :
"...Let me try and see if I’ve understood you correctly.
First of all, who is it that considers the Christians and Jews to be people of the book? Is it the present Qur’an or the Aga Khan?...."


What is your own view binom? do you think it is ONLY the Imam saying this? then you are in a state of delusion like most of you are and have been for the last 1400 years plus....no wonder Islam is at cross roads and in a state of turbulence....

Why don't go and read the Quran or if you have doubts that it is "corrupted" then you concede you are not a Muslim but Kufr....now Quran is "the Quran" ! and I mean just that ! The Quran of God as revealed !

I hope you are NOT mixing your man made texts and narrations which you wave at the world and knowing it is corrupted by your ancestors and paid scribes, surreptiously call it the "Quran" to try and cover your own "uloo" ?

No Sir ! the Quran of GOD is not corrupted ! The Quran of the paid scribes who sold their faith for a pittance is corrupted and faulty !

Tell me....if Allah "perfected" Islam as early as the 5th Sura, why did HE - the Exalted and Knowing then send 109 additional suras to mankind? shows your text is faulty !

Why are all the longer suras in front and all the shorter ones at the end? is this how Quran was revealed? No ! shows there were hecklers in your ancestry who did not get it right.

Ok...why does God use WE/US/OURS as HIS First person plural in the Quran? and not just "I" ? We all agree that God is ONE....so why the plurality? Can you explain pal?

You are trying to abrogate some of the ayats...why? on whose authority? and what is the basis? and how does one decide on such an abrogation if the chronological order itself is incorrect?

The verses alluded to the Ahl al Bayt or the Imams etc in the QURAN (as revealed) are genuine....but your TEXTS are NOT ! at best one can say YOUR texts are a like thereof....and I am being generous and I observe Valani is trying to ask questions thinking it is a smart question ....so let me ask Valani a simple question for now....I never like to ask difficult questions ....

"The Tawil of the white hand is to hold the white light in the hand and to touch the Hidden Book. Here the Noble Qur'an alludes to the fact that the spiritual and inner miracles are related only to beholders (7:108; 26:33). That is, they can be seen only with the inner eye."

The Quran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33)..."

The Prophet a mercy to the whole world. But on reading the above Quranic verse, one comes to the conclusion that the privilege is restricted only to the life time of the Prophet as it reads: “While you are among them.” The Prophet is admittedly not among us at present...do you agree Valani? Now is Allah chastising you? Yes or No ! and if not why not?

The word of Allah and HIS Prophet is not meant for Scums....whose hearts HE has sealed as there is sickness in them....You are deceiving nobody else except yourself....Allah has made you sicker....Allah guides unto HIS NOOR whomsoever HE Wills !

"WE gave Moses the BOOK and caused ALL Messengers to follow after him....AND WE gave Clear PROOFS....(it is plural not singular) to JESUS son of Mary....."

"SAY, We believe in God and what God revealed to ABRAHAM and ISHMAEL and ISAAC and JACOB and the Tribes and what was given to MOSES and JESUS and the Prophets from their Lord...WE do NOT discriminate between individuals amongst them....We surrender to God..."

So now what are you arguing about? Maherally is right notwithstanding whatever reasoning he may give you...the Quran of Allah confirms that they are indeed the People of the Book....conversely you are NOT...because you follow conjectures and half truths - a like thereof - man made TEXTS, especially written for your eyes only....

When Ismailis show you the basis of their arguments from the Quran and the ahadith you show us your dubiety by claiming what if it is corrupted? and when they don't you make felicitous claims that Ismailis do not know the Quran nor do they follow the Quran when in actuality we can teach you what your mullahs may have forgotten to tell you pal....

"AND for those who reject the SIGNS of GOD...alienated from the TRUTH, inform them of an EXCRUCIATING pain....." ( I have done that ! )

"They are those whose works are FUTILE in this World and the Hereafter and they have NO helpers or Protectors..." ( I have informed you)

Now can the blind and the seeing be Equal? No ! Can you compare wasps versus Caterpillars ? No ! so go back to your Bohora site - they need you there.....
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Khutbat'ul-Iftikhár
The Sermon of Glorification
by 'Alí ibn 'Abu-Talib.....trans. Khazeh Fananapazir

Introduction

This is a translation of the Sermon of Glorification [Khutbat'ul-Iftikhár] uttered by the Imám 'Alí.[1]

The Imám 'Alí uttered these three Sermons: Tutunjiyyih, Nurániyyat [Recognition through Luminousness[2]], and Iftikhár in the language of the World of Command ['Alam-i-Amr], all attributing the workings of the Will of God [His Primal Will] in the World of Creation.

The Author of the Bahá'í Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh, says that this world is sanctified above plurality:

Similar statements have been made by 'Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures.

These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation.

This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but one."

Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same.

Likewise, the Imáms of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad our all." (Bahá'u'lláh: The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Page: 153)

This illustrious sermon is another luminous example of this mighty theme and as it has never been rendered in English before. I present it as promised. Please God, may it see the light of day!

Original text in Masháriq Anwár al-Yaqeen, compiled by Háfiz Rajab al-Bursí, pages 164-166. Dar al-Andalus, Beirut, 1978.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Sermon of Iftikhár by the Imám 'Alí
(as narrated by Asbagh, the son of Nubáta)

The Imám 'Alí said:

I am the brother of the Messenger of God and the Heir to His knowledge, the treasury of His wisdom, and the Companion of His secret.

There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me.

He hath vouchsafed unto me the knowledge of what was from eternity and what will happen unto the Day of Resurrection.

To me hath been vouchsafed the knowledge of past and future generations and their genealogies.

And to Me hath been given a thousand keys to a thousand doors. The knowledge of the destinies of all things hath been granted unto me.

All these Gifts shall continue to flow through my Appointed Successors (wasi's) as long as day is followed by night and night followed by day and until all things return to God.

For verily, He is the True Inheritor of all things. Unto me, too, hath been vouchsafed the Path, the Balance, the Banner, and the Kawthar.

I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations.
And verily, I am the punishment of fire meted unto the damned.

These are the bounties of God unto me. And should anyone deny that I shall return after the Return[3], or deny that I shall come back after the Raj'at[4], or should anyone reject the truth that I shall appear again, even as I have done from the beginning that hath no beginning or even unto the end that hath no end, he, verily, hath denied the truth of all of Us.

And verily I say unto you, he who denies any one of Us, hath denied God.

I am the one who hath summoned you;

I am the companion of your prayers and invocations.

I am the Master of the signs and the Lord of the wondrous symbols of guidance.

I am cognizant of the mysteries of creation;

I am the One who brought the iron unto Men[5].

I am forever new and forever pre-existent, the One who brought the Angels from out of their habitations, the One who pledged an everlasting covenant with your spirits on the dawn of creation and Who, on that day, asked, through the will of God, the Self-subsisting, these words: "Am I not your Lord?"

I am the Word of God [Kalimat'u'lláh] which hath been uttered in the world of creation, the Object of the covenant that hath been promised in the prayers and salutations which lie in the reality of all created things.

I am the name that hath been invoked by orphans and by widows, the door to the city of knowledge and the refuge of patience and forbearance.

I am the upraised flag of God, the companion of the banner of divine praise, the Lord of infinite bounty and of infinite grace.

But should I tell you all that I am, you would doubtless disbelieve Me.

For I am also the slayer of oppressors, the treasury of divine favours in this world and of the next.

I am the master of the believers, the guide of those who seek the way.

The truth is Mine and certitude is at My side. Leadership is Mine and the righteous shall follow Me.

I am the first to acknowledge faith, the Cord of God that shall not be broken, the One who will raise the world to justice even as it hath been brought low by oppression.

I am the companion of Gabriel and the archangel Michael is beside Me.

I am the tree of guidance, and the essence of righteousness.

I shall gather together the world of creation through the Word of God that gathers together all things.

I am the treasury of all divine commands. To Me hath been given the Luminous Pen and the Crimson Camel[6].

I am the gate-keeper of certitude, the Commander of the Faithful, the friend of Khidir.

I am the One who shall conquer Syria and destroy the arrogant.

I have existed throughout the past, and, verily, I have never uttered a falsehood.

Through a word from Me, truth hath been separated from error, for I speak through divine inspiration and know of the stars and constellations.

God hath commanded me to ordain their orbit and vouchsafed unto me their knowledge.

With Me are the saffron and crimson coloured flags and I shall remain concealed until the time shall come for My manifestation in a great Cause.

Then, shall I grant and withhold as I wish. None can describe Me except Myself, for I shall protect the faith of my Lord.

I am the One Whom my Cousin chose, Who was present when His sacred remains were shrouded.

I am the Guardian appointed by God, the Most Merciful God, the companion of Khidir[7] and Aaron, and the friend of Moses and Joshua, the son of Nun.

I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe.

Verily, I am the leader of the righteous, the Sacred Fane frequented by all, the upraised firmament, the fathomless ocean.

I am the Holy of Holies, the pillar that supports humanity.

I am the Possessor of the Greatest Cause.

Is there anyone who can speak beside Me? I am fire itself. At a single Word of God, at one utterance of the Prophet, I would put within you My sword's length and send you hurrying unto your next abode.

I am the meaning of Ramadán and the night of Qadr[8] mentioned in the Mother Book.

My utterance is decisive, for I am the Súrah of Praise[9]. I am the purpose of prayer itself, whether at home or when traveling.

I am the purpose of fasting, and the sacred anniversaries in the months of the year.

I am the One who can remove the yoke that lies heavy on the people of Muhammad.

I am the Gate through which all shall pass who worship God; I am His worshipper, and one created by Him.

I am both the witness and the One witnessed to, the possessor of the green canopy, He Whose name is mentioned in the heavens and the earth, Who is the traveling companion of the Messenger of God throughout the heavens, for with Me is the Book and the sacred Arc.

I am the One who befriended Seth, the son of Adam[10], the companion of Moses and Irám, and all metaphors and analogies pertain unto Me.

Who indeed is there to compare with Me?

For I am the heaven-sent rain that causeth each blade of green to grow, the Lord of this nether realm Who brings forth the rains when all have lost their hope in its downpour.

I am the refuge of all that have obeyed God, and verily, God is my Lord and there is no other God but He.

For falsehood offers illusions, but truth giveth thee everlasting sovereignty.

I shall soon depart from amongst you, but be watchful and aware; be on your guard against the tests and tribulations .....There shall be chaos and confusion, massacre, pillage and robbery in the world.

Many other signs shall there be too, surpassing all these signs, among which is the sign of wonderment. But when all these signs have passed away, then, verily, shall the Qá'im Himself arise in truth.

O people, sanctify the Lord your God from all similitudes, for every reference to Him fails, and whosoever tries to limit the Creator by description or comparison hath verily disbelieved in His Book, which is the Book of God's Own Utterance.

Then He[14] said: How great the blessedness of those who love Me and who sacrifice their life in My path and who get exiled because of Me!

They truly are the repositories of God's knowledge, nor shall they be put to fear on the Day of the Great Terror.

I am the Light of God, Who can never be extinguished; I am the Mystery of God that can not be concealed.


Notes

[1] Editing, formatting, and notes provided by Mehdi Wolf.
[2] This was originally rendered "Recognition with Luminouness", but has been changed to the above at the wonderful suggestion by Stephan Lambden. [- M.W.]
[3] This is a reference to the name 'Alí-Muhammad (i.e. the name of the Exalted Báb). [- K.F.]
[4] This is a reference to the Sacred Name, Husayn-'Alí, the name of Bahá'u'lláh, particularly as Raj'at refers to the Return of Husayn. [- K.F.]
[5] Reference to the Súrah of Iron in the Holy Qur'án. [- K.F.]
[6] Oblique reference to the Thamud, their Prophet Salíh and the She-Camel so often referred to in the Holy Qur'án (See e.g. 11:61-65). [- K.F.]
[7] In Islamic tradition, Khadír was a servant of God who had been taught special knowledge and was sent to be a companion and teacher to Moses (see Qur'án 18:65-82; Bukharí, Vol. 1, Bk 3, #74, 78, 124 and also Vol. 9, Bk. 93, #570). Khadír may not be a reference to a person, but, rather, to the inspirational Source.

In this sermon, the Imám 'Alí is, in a sense, the Muse to all those inspired before, similar to Gabriel in the Qur'án (see, e.g. 2:97). [MF's note, based partially on information contained in a personal e-mail received from the translator, dated Wednesday, February 28th, 2001.]
[8] See Qur'án 97:1-3.
[9] The first Súrah in the Holy Qur'án and endowed with amazing powers. [- K.F.]
[10] Seth is named in Genesis as the son of Adam, and he lived for 912 years. (See Gen. 4:25-5:8.) Here, however, the reference is to the notion that Companion (Sahib), in a sense, means that the Eternal "I" was with Seth (in Arabic, Shayth, the son of Adam).

In Luke, Seth is an ancestor to Christ. [MW's note, based partially on information contained in a personal E-mail from the translator, dated Wednesday February 21st, 2001].












--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
shiraz.virani
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm

Post by shiraz.virani »

brother znanwalla

you dont wanna believe in quran[book of allah] but here you are giving us hadiths ? Be patient brother thats what h.ali[as] and all our imams[as] always emphasized upon, you being rude to our fellow muslim brother proves nothing but your foolishness.

regarding assembling the quran is concerned brother BINOM, i have something to share with you.

The Qur'an itself declares that Allah[swt] said to Prophet Muhammad[saw]: "We have rehearsed it to you in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually" (Surah 25.32).


In the Hadith records we read that the angel Jibril is said to have checked the recitation of the Qur'an every Ramadan with rasool[saw] and, in his final year, checked it with him twice:

Fatima[khatoon e jannat] said: "The Prophet (saw) told me secretly, 'Gabriel used to recite the Qur'an to me and I to him once a year, but this year he recited the whole Qur'an with me twice. I don't think but that my death is approaching.'" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.485).

Regarding the written materials there are no records as to exactly how much of the Qur'an was reduced to writing during the lifetime of rasool[saw]. There is certainly no evidence to suggest that anyone had actually compiled the whole text of the Qur'an into a single manuscript, whether directly under Prophet Muhammad's[saw] authority or otherwise, and from the information we have about the collection of the Qur'an after his death, we must rather conclude that the Qur'an had never been codified or reduced to writing in a single text.

As-Suyuti states that the Qur'an, as sent down from Allah in separate stages, had been completely written down and carefully preserved, but that it had not been assembled into one single location during the lifetime of Muhammad[saw] (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.96).


Upon rasool's[saw] death a number of tribes in the outer parts of the Arabian peninsula reneged from the faith they had recently adopted, whereupon H.Abu Bakr sent a large number of the early Muslims to subdue the revolt forcibly. This resulted in the Battle of Yamama and a number of rasool's[saw] close companions, who had received the Qur'an directly from him, were killed. What followed is described in this well-known hadith:


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said (to me): "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle (saw). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it (in one book)". By Allah! If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle (saw) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied "By Allah, it is a good project". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23).


I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The verse is: 'Verily there has come to you an Apostle from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ... (till the end of Bara'a)'. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.478).

Insofar as the text speaks for itself without further enquiry, we can see quite plainly that, in his search for the Qur'an, Zaid was dependent on one source alone for the last two verses of Surat at-Tauba. At face value this evidence suggests that no one else knew these verses and that, had they not been found with Abu Khuzaimah, they would have been omitted from the Qur'an text. The incident suggests immediately that, far from there being numerous huffaz who knew the whole Qur'an off by heart to the last letter, it was, in fact, so widely spread that some passages were only known to a few of the companions - in this case, only one.

There are further evidences of whole surahs said to be missing from the Qur'an as it is today. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, one of the early authorities on the Qur'an text and a companion of Muhammad, is reported to have said to the reciters of Basra:

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust". ( Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.501).



brother iam not here to fight or challenge anyone, i may be right or i might be wrong so please kindly bear with me


SALAM
YAA ALI MADAD
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

The Imam is the successor of the Prophet and the Vicar of God on earth. Obedience to him is obligatory.

Imam Jafar Sadik said: "We are the ones to whom God has made obedience obligatory.

The people will not prosper unless they recognized us and the people will not be excused if they are ignorant to us.

He who has recognized us is a believer and he who has denied us is an unbeliever
, and he who has neither recognized nor denied us is in error unless he returns to the right guidance which God has made obligatory for him. And if he dies in a state of error, God will do with him what He wishes"

There is a hadith that says...."those who die without knowing their Imam of the time dies the death of a pervert..."

So who is the Olil Amr you want? there are many imposters around - they are the unjust ones ! but Allah's covenant does not reach them as per HIS promise to Abraham....(it is in the Quran too)

"Is he then (like him) who has a clear proof from his Lord and a witness from Him and preceded by the Book of Moses, and Imam (guide) and a Mercy" (11:17).

Valani, is this not clear to you?

Try this one then...

And when it is said to them: Follow what ALLAH has sent down, they say: "Not that! But we will follow what we found our fathers upon".

What? Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?

The parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls; but they hear nothing, except a call and a cry. Deaf, dumb and blind, so they understand not". (The Holy Qur'an 2 Al- Baqarah 170-171).

When we reflect on the above mentioned verse, we quickly understand some different points about true guidance and false guidance.

In fact, ALLAH (swt) sent this verse as a warning not to follow blindly, but to use wisdom and understanding to follow the true guidance of ALLAH .

Since the creation of man, man has been a victim of blind imitation of silly superstitions, untruths and heresies.

Just look at how many things and conducts in today's society are based on superstitions and corruption. ALLAH (swt) wanted to give out a warning to the Ummah about falling into the trap of following such untruths and corruption blindly.

In this verse, it even states that those who turn away from the truth and choose to follow their desires or the desires of their relatives, friends, leaders, etc. blindly who don't have knowledge, are as the beasts who do not understand the true meaning of existence and follow only the meaningless cries and calls....is this what you seek valani? then be happy and pursue it....but please don't ask us the why? of what we do?

What is the meaning of "Follow what ALLAH has sent down" (The Holy Qur'an 2-170)

There is a most dangerous group within Islam itself and they are the hypocrites.

They infiltrate into the Ummah. They befriend mu’mineen (true believers) and then betray them. One reason why there is so much distrust and turbulence within the Umma !

They pretend to believe (especially when it profits them).

They are like a deadly poison that slowly pours into the blood stream, constantly making victims die a slow and painful death.

Their hearts seek only what profits them.

They are lovers of lofty positions in this temporal life and they will betray anyone to get this momentary power.

They love to be close to the truthful believers, in order to try to take position and they love to be in charge of the ignorant in order to spread their social disease....and so yes they too know themselves as "Olil Amr", if you will...and so to that extent you may be right in trying to coerce people into thinking that every dick in the twon is an Olil Amr notwithstanding their greed dishonesty and avarice.

These guys are ignorant of their own ignorance.

ALLAH (swt) says: "There are some people who say, [we believe in ALLAH and the last day], but they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive ALLAH and those who believe, but they deceive only themselves while they do not perceive.

There is a disease in their hearts, so ALLAH added to their disease”. (The Holy Qur'an 2-Al Baqarah 8-10).

And ALLAH (swt) says: "And when you see them, their bodies will please you and if they speak, you will be captivated by their speech; as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments". (The holy Qur'an 63–Al-Munafiqun-4). ...some of them even wear colourful robes and keep flowing beards...rather impressive indeed !

Imam Sadiq (a-s) said: "The hypocrite is content to be far from the mercy of ALLAH (swt), because his outward actions appear to be in line with Islamic laws and yet he is heedless and ineffective, mocking and transgressing its truthfulness in his heart". (Masbah-Shariat, section 18)....They too consider themselves "Olil Amr"....so which one do you prefer Valani?


Ibn Arabi quotes the Prophet as saying in Tafsir al-Koran al-Karim (1:30) that, "Every man shall be brought together on the day of judgment with what he loves. If a man loves a stone, he shall be gathered together with it." Naturally, one who loves the Imam e zamana, he will be with the Imam on the last day....so who is the Ulil Amr you want ?

Allah has sent, for our guidance, many prophets (124,000) and many books of guidance.

The seal and the best of them, Muhammad (saw) was the last of the prophets and the Holy Qur'an is the ultimate book of guidance sent to man and I mean the Quran as revealed and as preserved by the Prophet's family (ITRAT).

This same pure and perfect source of guidance and knowledge is also the heart of our most beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the Imams from his pure progeny.

And one who truly follows: "What ALLAH has sent down". (The Holy Qur'an2-170) ALLAH (swt) says: "O you who believe! Obey ALLAH and obey the Apostle and those in authority from amongst you". (Holy Qur'an 4 Surah An-Nisa 59).

By obeying ALLAH (swt), his apostle Prophet Muhammad (saww) and those in authority amongst us, then and only then will we be followers of "What ALLAH has sent down". (The Holy Qur'an 2-170)..so it is clearly established protocol...a combination...one leading to the other...people say they have an "unmediated" relationship with God...how naive? even the apostle had to deal with an angel...

Let this suffice for now....May Allah guide you to the Right path !

People pray fervently - some daily to Allah and the beseech HIm...
" Guide us to the Straight Path....the path of THOSE upon whom THOU has bestowed FAVOURS...." wow ! isn't it logical then to conclude that if there had been just one path, Allah would not have asked mankind to invoke this prayer? plus the prayer says..."the path of those upon whom thou has bestowed favours"....does it say the Book? No !

So who are they? they are the Prophets who were Truthful...they are the Witnesses and the Righteous and this too you may find in Sura 4:69....check it out...so who is the Olil Amr?

Sirat is the path which the Prophets have traversed first; then their legatees and the True Imams ( not the unjust ones) and these are the ones who will and can disclose the reality of the parables which were given to and contained to the Wise ones and the Messengers 9whom many of you have abandoned incidentally) and so who will now give PROOFs on your behalf?

May Allah Guide you from the Precipice of the Hell fire ! turn back ! as this will mean liberation from the world of animality and hell of being in the animal nature, without the Real Imam !
znanwalla
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Post by znanwalla »

Virani,


Sorry if I sound "rude" ! unfortunately I am blunt and I do not mince my words....as a muslim I have NO obligation to follow any man made TEXTS other than the Quran of Allah - as revealed to Muhamad (PBUH and his immaculate family)....certainly I believe in the Quran - anyone who doesn't is not a muslim....but I do not follow man made conjectures and half truths....WE all have to follow what Allah has sent down !!! Not what is created by man who is ever so contentious....forgive my plain speaking.

btw....I am not a brother !
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:Virani,


Sorry if I sound "rude" ! unfortunately I am blunt and I do not mince my words....as a muslim I have NO obligation to follow any man made TEXTS other than the Quran of Allah - as revealed to Muhamad (PBUH and his immaculate family)....certainly I believe in the Quran - anyone who doesn't is not a muslim....but I do not follow man made conjectures and half truths....WE all have to follow what Allah has sent down !!! Not what is created by man who is ever so contentious....forgive my plain speaking.

btw....I am not a brother !
How quote verses substantiating your faith if you believe those verses are corrupt themselves? It does not make sense

In regards to Allah speaking in the plural, if you ask any Arab they would not be confused as to the function of this. This is used in terms of respect or glorification.

This can be compared to the Old English language, where queens and kings have spoken of themselves in plural for their self glorification. I believe they still do that. Does Allah not have that right?

What did you believe this was referring to? If you are arguing that this is referring to multiple persons in addition to Himself, even if speaking in the plural did not serve the above function your argument would be flawed as it serves to refer to multiple gods giving revelation and not One; which is the basic and only message Islam has ever brought down.
m0786
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Post by m0786 »

How quote verses substantiating your faith if you believe those verses are corrupt themselves? It does not make sense
Br. Arshad

Just wait for head spinning circular response.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
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Post by znanwalla »

Arshad,

MF is expecting a 'circular" response....there is nothing circular in what I will tell you guys - blunt and straight is how I talk........enjoy the response below ...


If using WE/US/OURS is , as you say,is God showing grace and respect then are you saying that when HE-the Exalted uses "I" He is contradicting himself by not showing respect or grace ?

Is there any law or dictate either in Islam or in the world that says that I cannot refer and cross refer other texts, narrations, translations, or books unless I accept and agree with what I read or refer to ? is that your logic?

Then what you are propagating is that we all should blindly accept and follow what we all read and Islam does not allow this?

Now at least and notwithstanding whether I should or should not be referring to your interpolations....are you conceding that they are flawed and hence NOT the Perspicous BOOK Allah mentions save that I should not refer to them ?

You haven't explained why Allah sent 109 additional Suras to mankind if HE had "perfected" Islam as early as the 5th Sura?

This transcript of Quran which compiled by Imam Ali (AS) had the following unique specifications:

a) It was collected according to its revelation, i.e., in the order in
which it had been sent down. This is the reason that Muhammad Ibn Sireen (33/653 - 110/729), the famous scholar and Tabi'i (disciples of the
companions of the Holy Prophet), regretted that this transcript had not
passed into the hands of the Muslims, and said: "If that transcript were in our hands, we would found a great knowledge in it."

Sunni References:
- at-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, part 2, p101
- Ansab al-ashraf, by al-Baladhuri, v1, p587
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, pp 973-974
- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v6, pp 40-41
- al-Tas'hil, by Ibn Juzzi al-Kalbi, v1, p4
- al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p166
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 9, Section 4, p197
- Ma'rifat al-Qurra' al-kibar, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p32

The Prophet has said:

"We serve as the ark of salvation.Whoever holds fast to this ark will reach salvation and whoever deviates from it will be cast into perdition.Whoever wants Allah to grant him something should resort to the `ahl al-bayt'."

This tradition has been narrated by Shaykh al-Islam Hamu'i in the first chapter of "Fara'id al-Samtayn" and Khatib Khwarazmi in "Manaqib" 252 (c.f. "al-Ghadir" 300/2).

The Ashbah tradition has been narrated by `Allamah Amini in the al-Ghadir"(301/7)

On the basis of the "mubahalah verse",Sunni interpreters such as Zamakhshari, Baydawi, Imam Fakhr Razi and others regard `Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn (peace be upon them all) superior to all other people and argue that Hassan and Husayn are the sons of the Messenger (s) of Allah...Prophet's Mutawator ahadith also makes mention of his DESCENDANTS !

Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Hanbal, the Hanbali Imam, (d 241 A.H.), in "Musnad" 229/2 quotes Ummu Salamah as saying:

"Prophet was in my house.Fatimah came to her father holding a stone bowl filled with "harirah"(type of food made up of flour,milk,). The Prophet stated: Invite your husband and two sons to come as well." Ali, Hasan, and Husayn also came there and all sat down to eat "harirah".

Then, the Prophet was sitting on a cloak in his resting place and I was reciting the prayer in the chamber.

At this time, Almighty Allah revealed the verse "Allah only desires to ...".

The Holy Prophet (s) covered Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, and Husayn (peace be upon them all) with the cloak and then stretched his hand toward the sky and said: "Allah! These are the Members of my Household, so purify them of all uncleanness'. ..and so the purified ons touch the recitations!

Ummu Salamah said: "I asked him: "Am I also with you?" He stated: "You are on good and virtue" (but did not say that you are a member of my Household)'."

And enjoin prayer on your household ."20:132), Jaledin Siyuti in "al-Durr al-Manthur", has related as quoting Abu Saeed Khidri as saying that after this verse was revealed, for eight months, the Prophet went to the house of `Ali every morning at the time of morning prayers and read this verse: ".. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House!And to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33)." "Al-Durr al-Manthur" 198/5 and 199; "Fadail al-Khamsah"; 226/1).

Zayd bin Arqam who has related the authenticated Thaqalayn tradition, has stated that the wives of the Holy Prophet (s) are not regarded as the members of his Household).

He was asked: "Aren't the wives of the Holy Prophet (s) considered as the members of the Household?" He replied:

"The wives of the Prophet do reside in the Prophet's house but the Prophet's "ahl al-bayt" are those to whom the grant of "sadaqah" is religiously unlawful."

Now what makes you believe pal that We depend on your texts and translations?

Or is it because you have nothing better to say? or do you think that cross referring makes us dependant on it, by default ?....the Quran is with the Imam e Zamana as per the Quran !

It is confined in the MANIFEST Imam ! Manifest is the opposite of Hidden ! This world is never devoid of the Imam who has the Quran of Allah - as revealed ! No Imam ! No Quran ! simple huh?

When we study the Texts/Translations we find that the conjecture of the events behind individual verses of the Qur’an (Shaan-e-Nuzool) is an exercise in futility.

Instead of explaining, it distorts the meaning and binds the timeless verses to some particular supposed incidents.

Likewise, trying to establish whether a certain Surah was revealed in Makkah or Madinah is practically irrelevant to the Glorious Message.

The so-called ‘Ulama’ and exponents wasted centuries in this fruitless endeavor and their blind followers keep doing the same.

Yet, they have fierce disagreement on this non-issue to this day.

QUR’AN, REVEALED TO MUHAMMAD (S)

QUESTION: I wanted to know what evidence people cite when they say the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (S) in stages—i.e., the Makkah verses, the Madinah verses.

I think everything I’ve read about the Qur’an promulgates this theory, including Qur’an translators. And if the “early” verses are at the back of the actual written Qur’an, who decided to put them there?

Is there any evidence that the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet (S) all at once either? I know this isn’t exactly a burning issue in view of the problems of humanity, but I’ve really been thinking about it.

Even Muhammad Asad writes the Qur’an was revealed in stages at various times in Makkah and in Madinah.

Any information or even a link - much appreciated!
Wassalam,

******************************************************************************************************


ANSWER:

Dear Sister, Thank you for providing me the opportunity to expound the Truth at one place although it is scattered all over

The Qur’an was unquestionably revealed at the exalted prophet’s heart as a one time down-load during a night of Ramadhan in 610 CE. From then on, it was conveyed to people in stages on Divine Command. So, there is no human touch involved in its arrangement at all.

Humbly speaking, I am the first man to say this and prove it from the Qur’an itself.

Please see the evidence:

ONE: Notice God calling the Qur’an a Book right in the beginning (2:2), and read on.

The complete Book was revealed and preserved in the exalted Prophet’s heart on day one (in Ramadhan 610 CE) when he was commissioned.

2:2 This is a Book whereof there is absolutely no doubt concerning its authority and authenticity. And it leaves no doubts lingering in a seeking mind….

TWO: 44:3 We have revealed it on a Blessed Night.

We have always been warning. [Again, the entire Qur’an was revealed (down-loaded on the Prophet’s heart) in a Blessed Night in the month of Ramadhan, 610 CE, and then conveyed to mankind in stages over a period of 23 years. 2:185, 97:1]

(And so now it is encompassed within the heart of the manifest Imam) - so simple ! Even Abu Hurayra was told to find the Imam and follow him when Islam meets turbulence ! go and check this hadith.

THREE: 2:185 The month of Ramadhan has been chosen for this collective training (Saum) since this is the month in which the Qur’an was revealed …

FOUR: Surah 97…….. Al-Qadr …………………………………. (The Majesty)
[Author’s Note] This is the 97th Surah of the Qur’an.

The Night of Majesty is when the entire Qur’an was revealed through Gabriel on the exalted Messenger’s heart in the month of Ramadhan in the year 610 CE.

97:1 Indeed, We have revealed it in the Night of Majesty.
97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of Majesty!
97:3 The Night of Majesty is better than a thousand months. [A day of
enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance]

Experience this: Wrong translations make the Qur’an appear disjointed, without flow and thus difficult to understand.

THE MAKKAH DIALECT - Reflect on the following verses
44:58 (O Prophet) We have made this Qur’an easy in your tongue, in order that they may take it to heart.

69:40 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.

81:19 This is the revealed Word in the dialect of a noble Messenger.



Now the dilemma of the ‘authorities’ ------------------------------------------------------------- just one example:
Many of our ‘great scholars’ have been translating INNAHU LAQAULU
RASOOLIN KAREEM in 69:40 and 81:19 as :


“This Qur’an is utterance (talk) of a noble angel.” (Fateh Muhammad Jallandhary)


“This is certainly the word (descended) upon an honourable messenger.”
(Muhammad Ali, Urdu)

“This is the saying (speech) of a respected angel. (Ashraf Ali Thanwil)


“Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger.” (Yousuf Ali).


“This is in truth the word of an honoured messenger.” (Pickthall).


“This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.” (Rashad Khalifa).


“Behold, this (divine writ) is indeed the [inspired] word of a noble messenger.” (Muhammad Asad).


“This Qur’an is the utterance (narration) of God, the noble angel, and the exalted Messenger.” (Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood)

“Verily, this is the statement of a respected message-bearer.” (Maududi).

“This (Qur’an) is the saying of a high angel.” (Shah Abdul Qadir)

Similar errors and confusions have been created by the ancient ‘authorities’. Wow!

So it is the word of an angel and not the Word of God! Or, is it the word of Messenger Muhammad (S)?

Why do many of them translate Rasool as angel here? Because they did not wish to revert to the original tongue of Revelation, for various reasons, a daunting task being just one of them.

More importantly, they blindly follow the trails left by the Criminals of Islam, many of whom lived 300 years after the exalted prophet (d. 310 AH).

These ‘authorities’ conveniently contradict countless verses that clearly state, “The Qur’an is the Word of God”, and thus, knowingly or unknowingly, they attempt to demolish the very foundation, the Divine Revelation, of the Glorious Book.

The above single example shows you the ensuing chaos and it can give you an idea how misguided and misguiding, unfortunately, our Qur’an translators and translations have been.
arshad1988
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Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:Arshad,


If using WE/US/OURS is , as you say,is God showing grace and respect then are you saying that when HE-the Exalted uses "I" He is contradicting himself by not showing respect or grace ?

Is there any law or dictate either in Islam or in the world that says that I cannot refer and cross refer other texts, narrations, translations, or books unless I accept and agree with what I read or refer to ? is that your logic?

Then what you are propagating is that we all should blindly accept and follow what we all read and Islam does not allow this?
You have to understand that there are literary functions within the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a miracle, not only from recent scientific discoveries extrapolated, but since it was revealed. Why were so many people in awe of it? There was no scientific knowledge at that time, so why did so many become Muslim after hearing the Qur'an? It is because of the literary style and eloquence of its verses, people knew it could not be the words of any human. Just as how the Children of Israel experienced the water part at the Red Sea, similarly, people who understood the classical Arabic of their type experienced this miracle in their hearts, and is still experienced until today by people who understand Classical Arabic. It is even said that the tyrants of Islam during the time of our Prophet (pbuh), namely Abu Jahl, also believed that the Qur'an to be from Allah but he was too arrogant to accept it because his clan could not match something as great as the Qur'an, which came from the Hashimite clan. They used to sneak up at the door of our Prophet(pbuh) at night in secret just to experience this Qur'an. can you imagine that? The enemies of Islam were impacted more by the Qur'an than we are today!The problem with us is that we have failed to study the Qur'an and its language in order to experience this miracle in our hearts. Allah Himself says

"12:2. We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom." - There is definitely a wisdom behind this

Now, having said the above in order to explain that there are literary functions in the Qur'an, where Allah speaks in the plural, it is to signify His majesty and glory, in order that you may be in awe of Him, to build fear and be conscious of Him.

On the other hand, when He speaks in the singular it is to connotate closeness and intimacy with His slaves. For example, Allah, when narrating the story of Musa (peace be upon him) says:

20:9-13. Has the story of Moses reached thee?10. Behold, he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire." But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses! "Verily I am thy Lord! therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa. "I have chosen thee: listen, then, to the inspiration (sent to thee).

Similarly:
2:186. When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.

You have to understand, when Allah speaks to us, He understands how we function. There is a psychological impact in the way in which Allah speaks to us, and I have tried to illustrate that above. When reading the above verses in English one feels so close to Allah, imagine how much closer you would feel if you understood the eloquence of the language of the Qur'an!

The above are the literary functions which I have come across, there may be other explanations as well.

In regards translations, we are not talking about the translations, we are talking about the Qur'an. The translators who have been true to the language have been, for the most part I believe, in accordance with each other. There are obviously differences, but I believe they have tried their best to get the essential message across and they have been similar for the most part in this regard.

Finally, I never said that there was a law in which you could not refer to other texts. However, the Qur'an has been preserved much more meticulously than the secondary documents. If you refer to a previous post where I gave examples of contradictions in hadiths, you will see that they are so different even in the minute aspects. Hence you are referring to texts which carry less weight than the primary document itself. You refer to hadiths more than you refer to Qur'an; which is dated back much earlier than any hadith.
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

arshad1988 wrote:
znanwalla wrote:Virani,


Sorry if I sound "rude" ! unfortunately I am blunt and I do not mince my words....as a muslim I have NO obligation to follow any man made TEXTS other than the Quran of Allah - as revealed to Muhamad (PBUH and his immaculate family)....certainly I believe in the Quran - anyone who doesn't is not a muslim....but I do not follow man made conjectures and half truths....WE all have to follow what Allah has sent down !!! Not what is created by man who is ever so contentious....forgive my plain speaking.

btw....I am not a brother !
How quote verses substantiating your faith if you believe those verses are corrupt themselves? It does not make sense

In regards to Allah speaking in the plural, if you ask any Arab they would not be confused as to the function of this. This is used in terms of respect or glorification.

This can be compared to the Old English language, where queens and kings have spoken of themselves in plural for their self glorification. I believe they still do that. Does Allah not have that right?

What did you believe this was referring to? If you are arguing that this is referring to multiple persons in addition to Himself, even if speaking in the plural did not serve the above function your argument would be flawed as it serves to refer to multiple gods giving revelation and not One; which is the basic and only message Islam has ever brought down.
Arshad.

I think you are not reading what's being written..the verses aren't corrupt..there are verses missing..the order is not chronological...there were verses removed...so what is there is not corrupted - it is incomplete.


Shams
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

Islamic theology

Translation of the Quran has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology and which you concede....but you are still trying to convince the readers that Allah is merely representing his Majesty and Glory....

So why then there isn't any consistency in this regard, on his part, if you will ? if using the plural is showing Majesty and Glory then using just "I" is what? it's opposite? kindly explain in simple terms.

Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form....

Your theologians are unable to put the chronological order correctly until now ...so then are you suggesting that the chronological order of the arabic text is not the same as any other translation? enlighten please !

Scholars in your fold claim that certain passages of the Quran are abrogated by verses having a different meaning or revealed thereafter...but if the chronological order is incorrect to begin with how does one correctly establish all this? and who does this in absence of the Holy Prophet?

Furthermore, an Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on the context, making an accurate translation even more difficult.[1]

According to al-Suyuti verse 2:240 is abrogated by verse 234..now how can an earlier verse abrogate a later one? so it is clear that the scribes messed up the chronological sequence of what they compiled and they have simply caused confusion across the board?.

Now tell me please ! Is the noble Quran "time bound"? or is it the "eternal" word of God?

Is it fitting for you guys to say that an all powerful and omniscient and Omnipotent God should have to revise and revise HIS Commands so many times?

And is such a revision done to only the translations without the arabic text (which you claim is perfect) also being affected? Yes or No ?

Does Allah have to withdraw and substitute? if so why? if it is the eternal word of God then does man have the authority to meddle with it? if so why? and who gave this authority to them?

How can you guys allow such a compromising position or procedure to be allowed to be introduced into your own system to pursue your own sectarian agenda?

You have got yourself into one heck of a jam bud ! are your folks suggesting to us that Allah was unable to get it right the first time?

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language.

Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original.

Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations." ...now how does a book compiled by scribes be taken as the original Quran? many scribes had even died...the Texts have undergone revisions....Caliph Utman compiled his own version and ordered all previous codices to be destroyed...right?

TO CONTINUE WITH THE THEME...

For instance, Pickthall called his translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran rather than simply The Koran.

The task of translation is not an easy one; some native Arab-speakers will confirm that some Qur'anic passages are difficult to understand even in the original Arabic.

A part of this is the innate difficulty of any translation; in Arabic, as in other languages, a single word can have a variety of meanings.

There is always an element of human judgment involved in understanding and translating a text.

This factor is made more complex by the fact that the usage of words has changed a great deal between classical and modern Arabic.

As a result, even Qur'anic verses which seem perfectly clear to native speakers accustomed to modern vocabulary and usage may not represent the original meaning of the verse.

The original meaning of a Qur'anic passage will also be dependent on the historical circumstances of the prophet Muhammad's life and early community in which it originated.

Investigating that context usually requires a detailed knowledge of Hadith and Sirah, which are themselves vast and complex texts. ..so what about the ahadith Rejectors then?

This introduces an additional element of uncertainty which can not be eliminated by any linguistic rules of translation.

So it is clear there were hecklers in those days who were persistent in getting it all wrong because they were ignorant or dishonest

Folks sure have a convenient doctrines which appear to be their salient features !

According to al-Suyuti the number of abrogated verses has been estimated at atleast few hundred....according to one another atleast 200 verses have been cancelled by later ones....in any event the issue of "abrogation" is well known ...so if Allah is all-knowing and Glorious and powerful, then what is the need to withdraw or substitute? what is the MOTIVE?

Thus we indeed have a strange situation here where the entire Quran is being recited as the word of God by you folks - you bark incessantly at all of us and yet you are claiming in the same breath that some verses are abrogated and so no longer valid and so what nonsense is all this?

This doctrine makes a mockery of the Muslim dogma that the noble Quran is faithful and an unalterable "reproduction' of the original scriptures which you claim are preserved in the heaven !!! so how do you guys know what is actually preserved IN THE HEAVEN WILL MATCH THE MAN MADE TEXTS ?

If God's words are eternal and uncreated and of universal significance as Quran was a criterion for entire mankind and not just for Muslims, how can anyone even talk of God's words being superseded or becoming obsolete, to begin with ?

Now which TEXT do you follow? one approved by Saudi? or the One approved by Tehran? or India? or Pakistan? which one ? why is everyone not at least following just ONE single BOOK ? The prophet is ONE ! The BOOK is also just ONE ( I mean the Book of Allah ) and Allah is also ONE ! so why do muslims not have ONE BOOK? and then we make excuses and excuses and justifications of all kinds?

You still haven't explained to me why Allah had to send 109 additional suras to mankind if HE had perfected Islam as early as the 5th Sura? or does this ayah is placed elsewhere in your arabic text?

Why are all the longer Suras in front and the shorter ones at the end? is this how this appears only in the translations? No !

Now Allah says HIS Book is flawless and perfect in all respect...so what conclusion do you want me to draw?

I will tell you why there is WE/US/OURS but later on....lets hear you give me some logical answers to the above first....
kmaherali
Posts: 25706
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

binom wrote:
Binom replies:

Let me try and see if I’ve understood you correctly.
First of all, who is it that considers the Christians and Jews to be people of the book? Is it the present Qur’an or the Aga Khan? I assume for you it’s the latter, since if it were the former, the argument (as I understand it)you’re trying to make would be pointless.
The Imam according to his interpretation of the Quran.
binom wrote: Secondly, I think you completely misunderstand what the Qur’an means when it calls Jews and Christians people of the book. You seem to follow an interpretation (perhaps your own) which has no basis neither in the Qur’an - obviously it won’t since you don’t accept it as valid anyway - nor anywhere else..
Can you elaborate. In what way it has no basis. The Quran is open to all kinds of interpretations. It is very un-Islamic to say that someone's interpretation has no basis. I am entitled to my interpretation and you are entitled to yours. I only accept the Quran as valid if it's interpretation is guided by the Imam
binom wrote: Third, it does not follow from their, that is, Christians and Jews, not following the Qu’ran that they are therefore not the people of the book. They can not follow the Qur’an as the Muslims do and still be considered as the people of the Book, a term that the Qur’an itself constantly calls them by.
So what is the Book that the Quran refers to?
binom wrote: Even though this is completely false, because of the points I mentioned above, I’ll, for the sake of argument, grant it to you again. However, I ask you now the following: Why do you not apply this same fallacious method of reasoning to your own view on the matter, since it can equally apply to it as well? That is to say, just as the present Qur’an is not the “one Book” because the Christians and Jews, who are called the people of the Book, don’t follow it, the Imam, contrary to what you suggested, must also not be, in your own words, the one “archetypal [book] underlying all books,” since the Christians and Jews don’t follow him as well.
At a shariati level you may be right, but at an esoteric level, all mystical traditions come to the recognition that the "archetypal (book) underlying all books" is the source of all books. It is a matter of recognizing who is the bearer of the archetypal book is. For Ismailis the archetypal book is manifested in the Imam, for Christians it the spirit of Christ, for Hindus it is manifested in Lord Krishna.
binom wrote: Specifically as it applies to your argument, you say that the Imam himself or his word is authoritative – alright- but how have you come to this conclusion and by what proof? Is the proof from the present Qur’an that we have, the one that you always like to qualify as ‘complied by Uthman’? If so, then my first questions remain to be answered: If, as you say, the present Qur’an is corrupt, then by what criterion do you judge the verses of the Qur'an that allude to the family of the Prophet (saw) or Imam Ali's succession as valid? How do you know that many or all those verses that deal with that issue are not themselves corrupt as well? By what criterion are you able to make the judgment that 'these verses are corrupt and those ones are not'? You cannot possibly answer “my imam” since, as I said, you haven’t proved his authority yet.
First it must be understood that essentially Imamat is NOT derived from the Quran. Imamat has always existed even before the mention of the Quran. Ismailism has existed since the beginning based on the premise that the world cannot exist without an Imam.

Quran is used as a means of articulating our doctrine and as I said earlier it's validity is based on the authority of the eternal Imam.
binom wrote:
The points I’ve made above apply to this as well. A hadith confirms the authority of your Imam, and not the other way around. If not, then you fall into the same trap again, namely, petitio principii or of assuming the initial point (in question) i.e. your imam’s authority. So again, by what criteria do you judge certain hadiths to be true and certain false (the Muslims scholars (Sunni and Twelver Shi’i) by the way have developed an incredible science of hadith verification)?

Should you say: there are certain fundamental hadiths which prove the Imamah and, after that, the imam, which they have proved to be the rightful one, confirms the other hadiths as either true or false since his authority has been established by the first ones.
Hadiths are only used as tools to articulate our doctrine but not as basis of doctrine. For example if we have to articulate our doctrines to a Sunni Muslim we would use Hadiths accepted by the Sunnis to make our point. The same applies to the Quran, to Muslims we use verses of the Quran that they have accepted as well to prove our doctrine.

However our doctrines is not derived from the Quran and hadiths. For centuries many segments of our Jamat never needed to know the Quran and hadiths n order to derive Imamat. These are just used as tools to satisfy the needs of the context. Ismailism and Imamat has existed since beginning.
m0786
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:25 pm

Post by m0786 »

Shams B

I think you are not reading what's being written..the verses aren't corrupt..there are verses missing..the order is not chronological...there were verses removed...so what is there is not corrupted - it is incomplete.
HM should end this 1000 year debate. He should present complete Qur'an he has. Let's see how many years it will take!
ShamsB
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Post by ShamsB »

m0786 wrote:
Shams B

I think you are not reading what's being written..the verses aren't corrupt..there are verses missing..the order is not chronological...there were verses removed...so what is there is not corrupted - it is incomplete.
HM should end this 1000 year debate. He should present complete Qur'an he has. Let's see how many years it will take!
H. Ali did present the chronological and complete Quran to Uthman who rejected it. The same thing is likely to happen.

Shams
arshad1988
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:02 am
Contact:

Post by arshad1988 »

znanwalla wrote:Islamic theology

Translation of the Quran has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology and which you concede....but you are still trying to convince the readers that Allah is merely representing his Majesty and Glory....

So why then there isn't any consistency in this regard, on his part, if you will ? if using the plural is showing Majesty and Glory then using just "I" is what? it's opposite? kindly explain in simple terms.

Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form....

Your theologians are unable to put the chronological order correctly until now ...so then are you suggesting that the chronological order of the arabic text is not the same as any other translation? enlighten please !

Scholars in your fold claim that certain passages of the Quran are abrogated by verses having a different meaning or revealed thereafter...but if the chronological order is incorrect to begin with how does one correctly establish all this? and who does this in absence of the Holy Prophet?

Furthermore, an Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on the context, making an accurate translation even more difficult.[1]

According to al-Suyuti verse 2:240 is abrogated by verse 234..now how can an earlier verse abrogate a later one? so it is clear that the scribes messed up the chronological sequence of what they compiled and they have simply caused confusion across the board?.

Now tell me please ! Is the noble Quran "time bound"? or is it the "eternal" word of God?

Is it fitting for you guys to say that an all powerful and omniscient and Omnipotent God should have to revise and revise HIS Commands so many times?

And is such a revision done to only the translations without the arabic text (which you claim is perfect) also being affected? Yes or No ?

Does Allah have to withdraw and substitute? if so why? if it is the eternal word of God then does man have the authority to meddle with it? if so why? and who gave this authority to them?

How can you guys allow such a compromising position or procedure to be allowed to be introduced into your own system to pursue your own sectarian agenda?

You have got yourself into one heck of a jam bud ! are your folks suggesting to us that Allah was unable to get it right the first time?

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language.

Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original.

Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations." ...now how does a book compiled by scribes be taken as the original Quran? many scribes had even died...the Texts have undergone revisions....Caliph Utman compiled his own version and ordered all previous codices to be destroyed...right?

TO CONTINUE WITH THE THEME...

For instance, Pickthall called his translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran rather than simply The Koran.

The task of translation is not an easy one; some native Arab-speakers will confirm that some Qur'anic passages are difficult to understand even in the original Arabic.

A part of this is the innate difficulty of any translation; in Arabic, as in other languages, a single word can have a variety of meanings.

There is always an element of human judgment involved in understanding and translating a text.

This factor is made more complex by the fact that the usage of words has changed a great deal between classical and modern Arabic.

As a result, even Qur'anic verses which seem perfectly clear to native speakers accustomed to modern vocabulary and usage may not represent the original meaning of the verse.

The original meaning of a Qur'anic passage will also be dependent on the historical circumstances of the prophet Muhammad's life and early community in which it originated.

Investigating that context usually requires a detailed knowledge of Hadith and Sirah, which are themselves vast and complex texts. ..so what about the ahadith Rejectors then?

This introduces an additional element of uncertainty which can not be eliminated by any linguistic rules of translation.

So it is clear there were hecklers in those days who were persistent in getting it all wrong because they were ignorant or dishonest

Folks sure have a convenient doctrines which appear to be their salient features !

According to al-Suyuti the number of abrogated verses has been estimated at atleast few hundred....according to one another atleast 200 verses have been cancelled by later ones....in any event the issue of "abrogation" is well known ...so if Allah is all-knowing and Glorious and powerful, then what is the need to withdraw or substitute? what is the MOTIVE?

Thus we indeed have a strange situation here where the entire Quran is being recited as the word of God by you folks - you bark incessantly at all of us and yet you are claiming in the same breath that some verses are abrogated and so no longer valid and so what nonsense is all this?

This doctrine makes a mockery of the Muslim dogma that the noble Quran is faithful and an unalterable "reproduction' of the original scriptures which you claim are preserved in the heaven !!! so how do you guys know what is actually preserved IN THE HEAVEN WILL MATCH THE MAN MADE TEXTS ?

If God's words are eternal and uncreated and of universal significance as Quran was a criterion for entire mankind and not just for Muslims, how can anyone even talk of God's words being superseded or becoming obsolete, to begin with ?

Now which TEXT do you follow? one approved by Saudi? or the One approved by Tehran? or India? or Pakistan? which one ? why is everyone not at least following just ONE single BOOK ? The prophet is ONE ! The BOOK is also just ONE ( I mean the Book of Allah ) and Allah is also ONE ! so why do muslims not have ONE BOOK? and then we make excuses and excuses and justifications of all kinds?

You still haven't explained to me why Allah had to send 109 additional suras to mankind if HE had perfected Islam as early as the 5th Sura? or does this ayah is placed elsewhere in your arabic text?

Why are all the longer Suras in front and the shorter ones at the end? is this how this appears only in the translations? No !

Now Allah says HIS Book is flawless and perfect in all respect...so what conclusion do you want me to draw?

I will tell you why there is WE/US/OURS but later on....lets hear you give me some logical answers to the above first....

I don't think you've been reading my posts. It seems you just want to lash out your tongue. You may call it blunt, I call it rude. anyways...Please read my post above AND below before you start calling my arguments illogical.

------------------------------------------------------------
The Lie Of Quranic Abrogation
The biggest lie against the Quran - Part 1


By - A. Muhammad

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

According to this concept, it is claimed that some verses in the Quran are abrogated and invalidated by other verses!

The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).

These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.

Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by anti-Quranic writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.

Abrogations or Contradictions?

As mentioned, the abrogation concept implies that some Quranic verses have been abrogated by other verses. On the other hand, the anti-Quranic writers claim that these cases, and other cases they put forward, are in fact contradictions inside the Quran. Consequently, they use these cases as evidence to refute the divinity of the Quran.

It is noted that the examples used by Muslim scholars as ‘abrogated verses’ are not always the verses used by non-Muslim writers and which they simply refer to as ‘contradictions in the Quran’.

Although it can be said that the common aspect shared by the two groups is their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it can also be added that in the case of the non-Muslim writers, and particularly those who do not speak Arabic, we often find many of their claims for contradictions to be a product of their acquisition of corrupted and misleading translations of the Quran.

Both of these types of false claims can be dealt with in the light of the Quran. It can be demonstrated that these claims are no more than cases of poor understanding of the book.

Abrogation claims of Muslim Scholars


11:1 A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.
10:64 For them are glad tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. There is no changing the words of God. Such is the great success

These Quranic state clearly that God's words have been perfected and cannot be abrogated, yet sadly these Muslim scholars have invented the greatest lie about the Quran, claiming that there are verses in the Quran that abrogate and invalidate other verses.

They base their claim on a corrupted interpretation of two verses:

FIRST VERSE 2:106

"Whichever Ayah We nansakh or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106

What the interpreters claim is that this verse confirms that some Quranic verses are invalidated by others. They interpret Ayah in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran. And they interpret the word nansakh as to mean to abrogate. But does that word as used in the Quran truly mean abrogate?

Here we have to examine the correct meanings of both words: "nansakh" and "ayat" as used by God in 2:106

First: The word "ayat"

The word Ayah, as used in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings:

a- It could mean a miracle from God as in:

"And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayahs (miracles)." 17:101

b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in:

"And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people."25:37

c- The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign as in:

"He said, ‘My Lord, give me an Ayah (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10

d- It could mean a verse in the Quran, as in:

"This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its Ayat (verses)." 38:29

Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, it can easily be verified that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons:

The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.
The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!
If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle, an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten"can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.
Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse :

"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48

Second: The word "nansakh"

The word "nansakh" which is used in 2:106 comes from the verb "nasakha". It has been claimed that this word in 2:106 means abrogate. However, on closer inspection of all the Quranic verses which use this word it can be found that this word means quite the opposite. For full details please check the following page:

http://www.quran-islam.org/252.html

SECOND VERSE 16:101


"When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"

The substitution spoken of here is concerned with one of two things:

a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.


This first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:

"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48

Here, the words "superseding them" confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.

b- The substitution of one law within one Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture


This second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.

As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously.

We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.

This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.

The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):
The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:

"........they say, 'You made this up"

Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up" ? and why? For sure it cannot be his followers, his followers are not likely to tell him "You have made it up"....it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted" with the Quran...

What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself!

Once it is established that this verse speaks of reaction and words of the disbelievers, then the next question is would be .... are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another? The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book... they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another!

However, if they fear that their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.

These glorious words "You have made it up" indeed stand as true indicator from God Almighty that the substitution spoken of in this verse is not related to one within the Quran, but indeed a substitution between one scripture and another.

As mentioned before, the substitution of the previous scripture with the Quran is confirmed in 5:48

As a result of the corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101, and the claim that some Quranic verses invalidate other verses, the interpreters have demonstrated their failure to uphold two main characteristics of the Quran, those being that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions (11:1) and also that the words of God are unchangeable (10:64).

It is well worth inquiring here into the motive behind the interpreters corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101.

Note from FreeQuranOnline: If you found this article thought-provoking read the conclusion of the article in Abrogation claims of Muslim Scholars - Part 2 .

http://freequranonline.org/quranic-abrogation

-------------------------------------------------------------
Part 2: The Lie Of Quranic Abrogation
By - A. Muhammad

This article continues from The biggest lie against the Quran - Part 1. Click the link to read the first part.

Abrogation claims of Muslim Scholars - Part 2
Perhaps the major reason is not connected to the Quran at all but to the ‘hadith’. It is well accepted among the hadith scholars that the concept of abrogation applies to the hadith since it is found that many ‘hadith’ contradict one another. The examples of these are too numerous. The following are only some examples:

P.S. (the first number is the number of the book (chapter), and second number is the number of hadith. For example Muslim 18/58 means the 58th hadith in the 18th book of Muslim. In other quotations the name of the chapter is given instead of its number.

1- "I am the most honourable messenger" (Bukhary 97/36).
This hadith contradicts the following hadith:
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).

2- "The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213). This contradicts:
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).

3- The prophet said, "The sun was eclipsed the day Ibrahim (the prophet’s son) died"… (Bukhary 7/page 118)
This contradicts:
The prophet said, "the sun and moon are signs from God, they are not eclipsed for the death or life of any one" (Bukhari 2/page 24)

4- "If two Muslims fight each other with their swords, the killer and the killed will go to hell" (Bukhari 1/page 13, Muslim 18/page 10).
This hadith contradicts the hadith of the ten who were foretold that they will go to heaven by the prophet (Ahmad 1/page 187-188, also narrated by Abu Dawood and Al-Tarmazy). That is because among those ten were those who fought and killed one another in battle, specifically Ali, Talha and Al-Zobair. According to the first hadith they will go to hell but accoding to the second hadith they are foretold paradise!

5- In various hadith, specifically in the chapters of the ‘Hereafter’ in the books of Bukhary and Muslim we read numerous predictions by the prophet detailing what will take place there. This contradicts the hadith by Aesha, the prophet’s wife where she says "Anybody who says that Muhammad knows the future is a liar" (Bukhary 8/ page 166, Muslim 3/ page 9-10)

6- The prophet said, "Take your religion from the words of Aesha (the prophet’s wife)"
This contradicts: The prophet said, "Aesha is immature in mind and faith." (Bukhari and others)

The heart of the matter is directly connected to the following verse:


"Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from a source other than God, they would have detected within it numerous contradictions." 4:82


This verse confirms that anything that contains contradictions cannot be from God, and since the hadith contains numerous contradictions, as shown, it cannot be from God. But the hadith advocates claim that the hadith was inspired by God and that the hadith Al-Qudsy is God’s own words spoken to Muhammad! If that is so, how could they explain the contradictions in hadith? How could it be from God when it is full of contradictions? According to 4:82 nothing that contains contradictions can be from God.

To wiggle out of this tricky situation, the hadith advocates devised the concept of the abrogation of Quranic verses.

The plan was as such: If the Quran can be shown to contain contradictory verses, yet no one will dispute that it is from God, then the hadith with its contradictions can also be described to be inspired by God.


Quite a sly plot except for one minor detail:

The Quran contains no Contradictions

To follow, is a review of some of the better known cases of abrogation and, God willing, a verification of the fact that all these claims are based upon poor understanding of the Quran. Each case presented will be accompanied by Quranic evidence that confirms the absence of any contradiction between the relevant verses, and as a result will expose the interpreter’s poor understanding of the Quran.

Claims of Abrogation

Case one:
The first case is concerned with the following verses:

ABROGATED : "Whether you declare your inner thoughts or you conceal them, God holds you accountable to them." 2:284

ABROGATOR "God never burdens any soul beyond its means, to its credit is what it earns, and against it is what it commits." 2:286

The claim is that these two verses contradict one another, the first verse states that God holds people accountable to their intentions while as the second verse indicates that we are only accountable to our deeds. Faced with this apparent contradiction, the scholars resolved by declaring that verse 286 invalidates and cancels out verse 284. In other words, what we do not understand, or what gives us problems in interpreting, we simply obliterate.

Although, and on first impression, it indeed looks like there is a good case for abrogation here, yet, we only have to read the verse immediately before verse 284 to realise that there is no contradiction between 284 and 286:

The last words of verse 283 together with verse 284 read as follows:


"Anyone who withholds a testimony is sinful at heart. God is fully aware of everything you do. To God belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, Whether you declare your inner thoughts or conceal them, God holds you accountable for them."

By reading the two verses together it becomes apparent that the subject of verse 284 is testimony and not one’s intentions in general.

Verse 284 confirms that God holds those who conceal a testimony accountable. Furthermore, the words used in verse 284 are ‘declare’ and ‘conceal’ while as the words used in verse 286 are ‘earn’ and ‘commit’. The words ‘declare’ and ‘conceal’ are consistent with the subject of testimony. Testimony can indeed be declared or concealed. On the other hand, the words ‘earn’ and ‘commit’ which are used in verse 286 speak of our deeds.

Indeed verses 283 and 284 are related to the same subject (withholding testimony) since they are consecutive. For all that, it becomes clear that there is not the slightest contradiction between verses 284 and 286.

According to 284, we learn that God holds people accountable for concealing a testimony. The verse does not speak of intentions. On the other hand, verse 286 speaks about a completely different issue, that being ones deeds. The assumed contradiction is false.

Case two:
ABROGATED
"Surely those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians and the
Sabaeans, those among them who believe in God and the hereafter, and
who works righteous deeds, will receive their recompense from their
Lord, they have nothing to fear nor will they grieve"2:62

ABROGATOR
"Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be
accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers"3:85

Here, the claim is that while verse 2:62 says that some Jews and Christians will be rewarded, this was abrogated by 3:85 which states that all who are not Muslim will end up in hell.

Once again, the misunderstanding and poor interpretation here stems from the inability to comprehend the simple meaning of the word Islam (Submission to God). In spite of the fact that God tells us in the Quran that Islam (Submission to God) is as old as Abraham who was the first Muslim (see 2:128, 2:131, 2:133) and who was the first to name us Muslims (22:7, still the Muslim scholars today insist that Islam is confined to being the religion Muhammad and the religion of the Quran !!!

By creating such a false statement, the Muslim scholars claim to be the custodians of the message! In 3:67 God specifically tells us that Abraham was neither Jewish nor Christian, but a monotheist Muslim. God also tells us in 5:111 that Jesus and the Disciples were Muslim. In 27:44 tells us that Solomon was Muslim and in 5:44 we are told of all the prophets who were given the Torah and who were all Muslim.

What all these verses are confirming is that there are Muslims who followed the Torah and the Bible and who knew nothing of the Quran. These Muslims were submitters to God Alone , Lord of the universe.

In effect the religion of Islam which was originally founded by Abraham can be found, not only in the Quran, but also in the Torah and the Bible. After all we are told that all the foundations of the religion, and which Muslims call the pillars of Islam were first given to Abraham.

The Quran confirms the true meaning of a Muslim, as being he who submits to God Alone and obeys the law of God Alone, and should not be confined to he who follows the Quran.

Those among the Christians who believe in the Oneness of God and who do not worship Jesus are Muslim in the sight of God. Similarly those among any other religion who submit to God Alone and who set up no idols to partner Almighty God are Muslim in the sight of God.

All these have their recompense from their Lord and have nothing to fear (2:62). These people are also the subject of 3:85 since they chose to be Muslim (submitters) to God. They could be Muslim submitters, Jewish submitters, Christian submitters …..etc.

Consequently, there is no contradiction between 2:62 and 3:85

Case Three:
Some of the most ridiculous cases of abrogation are connected with the inability of these scholars to understand that some laws set by God make allowance for exceptions. Whenever the scholars see a law that makes allowance for an exception, they construe it as a case of abrogation!

There are many cases throughout the Quran of this poor deduction and total irrationality, the following are some examples:

1- In 4:19 God address’s the men by saying:


"You shall not force them (the women) to give up anything you have given them, unless they commit a proven adultery"

Here the abrogation claim is that the first part of the verse "You shall not force them (women) to give up anything you have given them" has been abrogated by the second part of the verse "unless they commit a proven adultery"!


Why does a single exception to a rule become an allowance by God to obliterate the rule? Obviously the rule still stands, because God states that for all women who have not committed adultery, their husbands do not have the right to regain anything they had previously given them.

The first part of the verse, which constitutes the general case has not been abrogated. The second part of the verse which constitutes the exception also stands.

2- In 2:159 we read:


"Those who conceal Our revelations and guidance, after proclaiming them in the Scripture, are condemned by God; they are condemned by all the condemners"

They claim that this verse (159) has been abrogated by the verse that immediately followed it (160) which reads:


"Except those who repent, reform and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, the Most Merciful"

Again we see that verse 160 says that those who had concealed the revelation but then repented and reformed are redeemed by God. Verse 159 has not been abrogated. It still stands, since all those who concealed the revelations and have not repented and reformed are not redeemed.

3- In 3:86-88 we read:


"Why should God guide those who disbelieved after believing…the retribution is never commuted for them, nor will they be reprieved"

The claim here is that these verses have been abrogated by verse 89:


"Exempted are those who repent thereafter and reform, God is Forgiver, Most Merciful."

Once again the claimed abrogation is non existent. Both verses stand true.

Verses 86-88 are speaking about those who disbelieve after believing and maintain their disbelieving until death. They are never reprieved in the hereafter. Verse 89 speaks about those who repent and reform during their life. Because God is Forgiver and Most Merciful they are reprieved.

The Quran confirms that only those who die as disbelievers are not pardoned:


"Those who disbelieve and die as disbelievers, an earthful of gold will not be accepted from any of them, even if such a ransom were possible. They have incurred painful retribution; they will have no helpers." 3:91

Once again the claim of abrogation is false and is based on poor understanding of the Quran.

4- Another case of poor understanding is found in the following verses:


"Also you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time"4:23

they claim that this has been abrogated by the words that immediately followed :


"except that which has taken place in the past"

and they interpret the last sentence, which in Arabic is (Ila ma salaf) to have the meaning of (I have forgiven you).

Obviously this is all incorrect. What this last verse means is ‘do not break up existing marriages’. It has nothing to do with forgiveness.

In other words God is saying that this law is to be enforced from that time onwards, but not to previous marriages so as not to break existing families.

Again the abrogation is non existent.
The same is applies to :


"Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers, except that which has taken place in the past…"4:22

Case four:
Here they claim the underlined words in the following verse:


"To God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you go you will always be facing God. God is Omnipresent, Omniscient" 2:115

have been abrogated by the underlined words in the following verse:

"We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may, all of you shall turn your faces towards it."2:144

The claim is that in the beginning God made it lawful for the believers to face anywhere in Salat (Contact Prayers) (as in 2:115) then later God cancelled that by appointing a set Qibla (2:144) for the believers. Therefore, the claim is that 2:144 invalidates 2:115

First of all, it was never made lawful for believers to face anywhere in their Salat. This claim has no Quranic evidence whatsoever. We are told in the Quran that the Qibla was changed, but nowhere are we told that there was no Qibla.

We are told in the Quran that there was a Qibla that did not appeal to the prophet, and that God changed it to one that is more appealing to the prophet (see 2:144)

The obvious misunderstanding here is that while verse 144 is speaking about Qiblah for the Salat (Prayer), verse 115 is not speaking about Salat at all. Verse 115 is speaking about the fact that God is present everywhere, and thus wherever we may look or wherever we may go, we will always be facing God. The presence of the word "Omnipresent" at the end of the verse confirms that the subject of the verse is God’s Presence and not the Salat.

Verse 144 does not abrogate verse 115. They are talking about two completely different subjects.

Case Five:

ABROGATED
"Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD
for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they
would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful." 4:64

ABROGATOR
"Whether you ask forgiveness for them, or do not ask forgiveness for
them - even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times - GOD will
not forgive them. This is because they disbelieve in GOD and His
messenger. GOD does not guide the wicked people." 9:80


The claim is that the underlined words in 9:80 "even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times - GOD will not forgive them" invalidate the underlined words in 4:64 "the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.".

Once again, a case of poor understanding of the Quran.

Here we immediately note that these two verses speak about two different groups of people. In 4:64 God is speaking about those who have wronged their souls but have turned back to God and asked for His forgiveness. The fact that they asked forgiveness from God denotes that they believe in God, and for that we are told that "they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.".

On the other hand, those spoken of in 9:80 are described by the words: "they disbelieve in GOD and His messenger"…and because they are disbelievers, we are told that "GOD will not forgive them".

From these two verses we learn that forgiveness can be asked for any believer who repents and reforms, but may never be asked for disbelievers.

No contradiction or invalidation exists between the two verses.

Case six:
ABROGATED
"O you who believe, witnessing a will when one of you is dying shall be
done by two equitable people among you (relatives or close friends). If
you are travelling, then two others may do the witnessing. After
observing the Contact Prayer (Salat), let the witnesses swear by GOD,
to alleviate your doubts: "We will not use this to attain personal
gains, even if the testator is related to us. Nor will we conceal GOD's
testimony. Otherwise, we would be sinners." 5:106

ABROGATOR
"Once the interim is fulfilled, you may reconcile with them equitably,
or go through with the separation equitably. You shall have two
equitable witnesses from among you (relatives or close friends) witness
the divorce before GOD."65:2

The claim is that in 5:106 any two witnesses, who are not necessarily relatives or close friends, can act as witnesses while in travel if relatives are not available, but this was invalidated by 65:2 which stated that the witnesses must be from among the relatives or close friends.

Once again, the claim is false for the following reasons:

1- The subject of 5:106 is witnessing the will of someone who is dying, or near death. The subject of 65:2 is witnessing a divorce.

2- In the situation of travel, a dying person may not have much time left, and since equitable relatives may not be available in time, thus God wavered the condition of the witnesses being from among the relatives, so that the will is witnessed in time before the death of the person.

3- The case of divorce does not present such immediate urgency, and thus the condition of equitable witnesses from among the relatives stands.

4- Thus it is obvious that 65:2 does not abrogate 5:106 in any way.

Case seven:

ABROGATED
"Say, ‘I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day." 6:15

ABROGATOR
"We have bestowed upon you (O Messenger) a great victory, whereby GOD forgives your past sins, as well as future sins…….." 48:2

Here the claim is that the underlined words in 6:15 were abrogated later by the underlined words in 48:2

The indirect outcome of this outrageous abrogation is one of total idol worship.

If the scholars state that the words "I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day" are invalidated, are they saying that the prophet no longer has to fear God?

To demonstrate the truth of these verses and their implications it is necessary first to examine in the light of the Quran what is forgiven by God, and which can be implied under 48:2, and what is never forgiven by God and thus must be feared according to 6:15.

We are told in the Quran that God forgives all sins except idol worship (setting partners to God):


"God does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offences for whomever He wills." 4:48 and 4:116

We are also told that this warning applies to all people, including God’s messengers. To affirm that even Muhammad was not excluded from this warning, we see God specifically warning Muhammad against idolatry:


"It has been revealed to you (O Muhammad), and to those before you that if you ever commit idolatry, all your works will be nullified, and you will be with the losers." 39:65

Now when we come to the claimed abrogation of 6:15, we read the following words:


"Say, ‘I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day."

However, when we read the words that immediately precede this verse, we read:


"Say, "I am commanded to be the most devoted submitter, and, `Do not be an idol worshiper." 6:14

If we put the two verses next to one another (verses 14 and 15 of Surah 6), it becomes obvious that the messenger is to say (If I should ever disobey God and commit idol worship, then I would fear the retribution of an awesome day).

It follows from that to conclude that verse 48:2 which promises the messenger’s sins will be forgiven (past and future sins) is obviously connected to all sins, except if he was ever to commit idol worship.

There is no contradiction or abrogation between the two verses.

Case eight:

ABROGATED
"GOD has pardoned you: why did you give them permission (to stay
behind), before you could distinguish those who are truthful from the
liars?" 9:43

ABROGATOR
"The true believers are those who believe in GOD and His messenger, and
when they are with him in a community meeting, they do not leave him
without permission. Those who ask permission are the ones who do
believe in GOD and His messenger. If they ask your permission, in order
to tend to some of their affairs, you may grant permission to whomever
you wish, and ask GOD to forgive them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
24:62

The claim here is that in 9:43 the prophet was not allowed to give permission to the ones wanting to stay behind, before he could distinguish those who are truthful from the liars, while in 24:62 he was not given the permission to do so.

Once again, the error is quite obvious. Verse 9:43 is specifically speaking of the urgent case of going out for battle, whileas 24:62 speaks of the more relaxed situation of someone leaving a community meeting to attend to some personal matters!

We read in the two verses preceding 9:43, namely 9:41 and 42:

"You shall readily mobilize, light or heavy, and strive with your money and your lives in the cause of GOD. This is better for you, if you only knew.
If there were a quick material gain, and a short journey, they would have followed you. But the striving is just too much for them. They will swear by GOD: "If we could, we would have mobilized with you." They thus hurt themselves, and GOD knows that they are liars."

The underlined words "mobilize" and if it were a "short journey" indicate that the subject is mobilizing to go out for the purpose of battle.

However, the words "community meeting" in 24:62, denotes that the situation there is not one of battle but a normal community meeting where a request for permission to be excused for some personal matters would not exactly be classified as an unforgivable sin!

Once again 24:62 does not contradict or abrogate 9:43, the subject of the two verse is different.

http://freequranonline.org/quranic-abrogation-2
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

How do you explain this then...." Obey Allah Obey the Prophet and Obey the Olil Amr.." - don't you think it should have been only "Obey ME" or "Obey Allah"? if what you say is true, then the above ayah seems to contradict your argument....am I right? I can sense you are in a panicked frame of mind brother ....

Okay let me show you another ayah...

" SAY: Though mankind and the JINN should ASSEMBLE to PRODUCE the LIKE of this QURAN, they could NOT produce the like thereof, even if they were to HELP one another..." (Sura Bani Isra'il)...

Now why would this not also apply to the scribes who put together "mushufs" and made it into a Book after the death of the Prophet, but without his authority and direction and one caliph comes and overturns the compilations of the previous one etc etc...? do please enlighten us Sir ?

In 23 years of Naboowat did the Holy Prophet embark on a formal co compilation process? No ! why not? can you explain please...if this was necessary to be done publicly or openly, would he not have done so?

You mentioned about Moses...Quran establishes the fact that God speaks to HIS slaves according to THREE modes and not just one mode of self-disclosure...so what you are saying is nothing unique or extra ordinary...it is in the Quran...It is in Sura al Shura and Sura al Nisa....and so God spoke to Moses from "behind a Veil and directly too.."

Now lets look at this one..." Between them is a Veil (Hijab) and on the HEIGHTS are MEN who KNOW them all by their marks.." (Sura al Ar'af)...so how do you explan this ayah then...does it impact Tawhid adversely ? Yes or No ?

"Verily God hath preferred Adam, Noah and the FAMILY of ABRAHAM and the FAMILY of IMRAN above HIS creatures..." (Sura al Imran)..so tell me pal, it covers "family" of Abraham and Imran...does it then EXCLUDE Abraham and Imran personally ?

I am not saying it does ....but at least you can help me here nah...

Now why are the others mentioned ABOVE preferred above all other creatures...? do you read that Adam and Noah has been mentioned personally but only Abraham and Imran's family has been included....am I right? or am I missing something ? I am sure an expert like you can help me unravel this intricacy ....

let me just leave it here for now....we will continue....Inshallah !
m0786
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:25 pm

Post by m0786 »

H. Ali did present the chronological and complete Quran to Uthman who rejected it. The same thing is likely to happen.

Shams
It is debatable whether he did or did not. Ismaili Imamas have given you new way to pray. Instead of fasting in Ramadan has given you beej fast. Qibla is alluded to his feet. Hid deedar is Hajj and sky has not fallen on Ismailis. Who cares about ignorant Muslims? Why would you not like complete real Qur’an? Instead of looking for confirmation of Imamat in Usman Qur’an and arguing endlessly you would have Ayas and Suras on Imamat and Waliya.

Let’s get real. There was and there is no such Qur’an. It is all talk.
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

I somehow sense "contradiction" in your argument....looks like you are talking from both the ends of the mouth and so I am unable to understand which end is doing the talking....

On one hand you are saying that the notion of abrogation is just a myth and a lie....on the other hand you are also trying to kind of justify in the same breath about its possibility by quoting an ayah that Allah is able to do all things...etc etc....

The issue is not whether Allah is able to do all things or not? the issue is whether man is able and qualified to do so now as the Prophet is not there or does Allah speak to you guys directly like he spoke to Moses? ...so try and give methodical answers instead of offering a "kichri" cooked in ghee....are the muslim scholars trying to abrogate some ayats? Yes or No ? can't you give a simple answer?

During the Omayyad period thousands of false ahadith were made ( read the history - it is there - I am not saying this)...a famous Sunni erudite Shibli Nomani writes in his Siratun Nabi - Vol 1 - page 13:.." during the time of the Khulafa Rashideen, religious learning including the teachings of the ahadith and the fiqah was mostly verbal but the Omayyad rulers forced the learned people to write books on religious subjects inlcuding the ahadith.

Qazi Abdul Barr has quoted Imam Zohri that the theologians did not prefer to write but were forced to do so.

Amir Muawiya called Obaid bin Sharriya from Yemen and ordered him to write the history and that is how Akhbarul Mazi'een was written.

Then Abdul malik bin Marwan ordered the Ulema to write books on various subjects and then he ordered Saeed bin Jubair to write the interpretation of the Quran and which was then added to the "Royal" library.

Around the same time, Imam Zohri wrote a book on the science of War - he was the teacher of Imam Bukhari.

Imam Zohri was frequently invited to the court of Abdul Malik bin Marwan.

Maulvi Abdus Salam Nadvi writes in his Tari-Khul Fiqahil Islam, page 239, about Kharajis saying that these people were taking the Zahiri meaning of the Quran and accepting only those ahadith that were reported by those whom they considered them to be their friends and so they only took those ahadith that they thought or assumed were authentic based on what suited their own style and sectarian agenda....it is a well known fact that the Kharajis were the enemies of the Holy Prophet and so by extension also of his revered family.

History bears testimony that during the period of the first TWO caliphs no ahadith was even recorded, circulated or allowed to be quoted if it favoured the Prophet's own family. ...I am not saying this...history books are saying so...

This is history itself telling us - not me telling you ! and so a large collection of ahadith favouring the Prophet's family was destroyed, for obvious reasons....

Muawiya was an absolute monarch and his reign (as per the historians) was one of terror and torture and most of the supporters of Beni Hashem were actually put to death, one by one...

Muawiya's preachers had started a campaign against the Prophet's own family and the citizens of Kufa were targets

Muawiya appointed Zaid Ibn Summayya as the governor of Kufa and Basra...why? because Zaid knew who were the Sh'ias and so he rooted them out one by one under false pretenses

Zaid used to amputate the legs of the Sh'ias ! he used to pull out their eye balls and hanged them from trees and then Muawiya gave an order that who speak in praise of Usman or even report a ahadith in favour of Usman should be honoured and be seated next to him...this is history I am telling you and so now go and do some research...

Muawiya used to bestow gifts and favours for ahadiths created for him ! as a result the learned people became greedy for fame and money ! and so all those who fabricated ahadith received gifts and fame ! and such folks were given fame and honour !

The history is rather colourful !...and so what can people believe or accept in such a climate? Truly unfortunate !
znanwalla
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by znanwalla »

MF,

Hajj or Pilgrimage is an article of OUR faith ! Ismailis have NOT been stopped from doing Pilgrimage by anyone and so whosoever says that Ismailis are not supposed to do Hajj are misleading the world and creating fitna - rather they should be saying that the Saudi angels obstruct Ismailis from going to Hajj but despite that they do somehow manage to go but nobody knows and when asked the ismailis give fuzzy replies ! Now one may say this is "dissimulation"...

Also a muslim is supposed to make a Pilgrimage to Mecca once in a lifetime after he has fulfilled certain conditions.

For example if a person is in a debt he should first clear it. If he is a Trustee of someone, he should relinquish his responsibility and then go to Hajj. If he has a sick or old parent to look after, he or she may not go to Hajj.

If the person is unable to meet the expenses or unable to provide sustenance to his family, in his absence, then he or she is not obliged to go to Hajj.

Those who are sick or invalid, old or unable to travel are exempted.

There is a great significance in the Pilgrimage to Kaaba.

It is not only the first House of God and the most ancient place of Worship, but it is also the birth place of Mowla Ali and no one has ever been born there before or after him !

An eminent Sunni Scholar, maulvi Lutfullah Nishapuri writes:

" The circum ambulation of the Kaaba has been made obligatory for all muslims because this is the birth place of Ali Ibn Abi Taleb"

Logically Kaaba is a very holy shrine for the Sh'ias...many years later Imam Ali was also martyred inside the Kaaba !

Additionally the JKs of the Ismailis is "the elevated house of the Prophet and his beloved family" (read Sura tul NUR)...so we not only face but also enter the House of Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fatima as Zahara to pray and supplicate to Allah through our Imams , whilst the muslims face or circum ambulate it Ali's (AS) shrine.

The performance of Hajj is meant to be a sacrifice - an assembly to spread knowledge and information about Islam.

Qibla means a "goal" or a direction in which muslims face for prayer.

Jews were facing Jerusalem and the Holy Prophet followed it when he was in Mecca and after Hijra, in Medina for sixteen months and then he turned towards Mecca, as the Jews used to taunt the muslims.

So even the Israelites have their own Qibla - so the Qibla of the muslims distinguishes them from non-muslims, especially the Jews but just facing Kaaba is not the goal or aim of our religion.

Allah says..." and each one hath a goal toward which he turneth"..."so vie with one another in good works"..."wherever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together"...."Lo ! Allah is able to do all things"

Thus simply facing towards Kaaba is not the goal but to be good and God-fearing is a primary aim !

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the east and the west; but righteousness is he who believeth in Allah and the last day..."

At another place Allah says.." Unto Allah belong the east and the west and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's countenance. Lo ! Allah is all-Embracing; All-Knowing..."

Now let us examine the ayah itself..." from whencesoever thou started forth, turn thy face in the direction of the sacred mosque. That is indeed the truth from thy lord..."

The verse does NOT stipulate for salat or prayer purpose...it does not have the word salat anywhere and so what could be the esoterc implication? ...of this ayah?

Let us remember here that it is the place where Ali was born - so kaaba is exalted because Ali the first divinely appointed Imam and successor of the prophet was born there, in the mosque itself and so the kaaba is holy because it is also Hazrat Ali's birthplace and every succeeding Imam is also Ali !

I would thus assume that the ayah above implies that we all follow Imamat and keep the remembrance of the Imams during all our activities and at all times i.e. whilst working, playing, driving, travelling etc etc.

Allah's "Quran" is valid for all times and for all places and so can anyone who is on the moon or any other planet always turn his face to Mecca at prayer time? so then will he not say his prayer?...and there is a verse in Hadi se Qudsi in which Allah told Muhamad...

"had it not been for thee I would not have created the world....and had it not been for Ali, I would not have created thee..."

So if there was and is no Ali - there would be no Muhamad and if there was no Muhamad - there would be no Universe ! take it or leave it pal !

So what more do we need to understand about kaaba?

Muslims believe that the Kaaba is holy because it was built by Abraham and his son ishmael - but even then all the Prophets and their pure progeny are one and the same and Allah makes no distinction amongst HIS Prophets !

It is thus clear that a muslim is allowed to pray in any direction because God is everywhere.

The practice of "praying" facing towards Kaaba was taken from the Jews who face Jerusalem. and so facing Qibla in "prayer" is not a fundamental principle of Islam but merely a tradition, if you will.
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