Council

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:10 am

First of all, I think you guys have NO RIGHT to start JUDGING the Council.

Sure, Council is NOT perfect, and can never be, however, they are the CHOSEN representatives of the Imam. It is rather arrogant of you guys to start parading around, saying you no more than council, and that council is going against the faith, or going against Imam's wishes.

Let me tell you that Imam and Council both did NOT want Ismailies to be at the U of T convocation.

I think it was very foolish of that person and his friend to start prostrating in front of Imam IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PUBLIC.

There is a time and place for everything. Imam was not visiting Toronto in a religious context, he was visiting in a secular context. When Ismailies flock around their Imam like he's a celebrity, and when ppl start prostrating to Imam (who appears as an ordinary man to common ppl), what kind of message does this send to the public?

What kind of repercussions do you think this has on Ismailies in Sunni Muslim countries?

"but it wasn't a religious context
MHI has said whatever is esoteric should be left esoteric
so by prostrating in a non religous context wouldn't it be wrong? "

- mr. lunatic, why is it so important to you to prostrate in front of the Imam in His Zahiri form? Remember, Imam is present everywhere, its just that you cannot see him. If your heart wants to prostrate to Imam, you can easily do it in private or in JK, whether Imam is physically present or not, he is there anyway.

BTW...mr. lunatick, were you present at HQ khane on June 30th? YOu were the one that said we should define Imam as Allah? If so, plz contact me, I would like to discuss this concept with you.

[email protected]

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:07 pm

The Batuni prostration I think is the prostration of our desires to the Imams desires(farmans) in our hearts.

Let us aim to perform this prostration and never rise from it. Stay in a perpetual state of submission to his will(farman).

Until he through his grace embraces us

or not that is not important what is important is that we succeed in performing the true batuni prostration.

The pleasure is in the pain. The pain experienced by our mann, our desires as they die in slow sweet agony. (Mann ne maaro toe gur kahe manne malo)

The agony is a reminder that we are getting closer and closer to Imam.

The more is hurts the faster the speed of the journey. The longer it lasts the closer to Imam we become.

This is just my opinion I could be wrong.

Shams

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:25 pm

YAM kandani,

first of all I don't think you have any right to judge me on what I did
it is your humble opinion and I praise you for it. Buddy, I don't think
you also want me to start telling you stories of council members
LYING to MHI's face. If that is the case, then bring on the heat. I respect
council and I always have. There are some members who just are korrupt.
And btw my prostration was private the PUBLIC did not see it was at Queens Park and only the members in the car saw. And
I don't think you want me to start telling you HOW COUNCIL RUINED PPL'S MOODS. Buddy MHI is like right behind the members of "council"
and they are ruining moods. Yes they have been chosen by all means and
I respect that. What is your reference for MHI not wanting ismailes there
They have to announce it I accept that. But if Hazar Imam didn't want me there I wouldn't have. Imam is MAZHAR E ALLAH, buddy ppl prostrated to MHI in public places and Hazar Imam has praised them. That is like saying to Hazar Imam don't say
bismillah e rahman e rahim because he is just a "ordinary person". Yes, I was at Main khane my friend said that MHI is Allah, I felt what he said was wrong because he wouldve said it to a zaheri context which is incorrent. In jamatkhana however, we can say that. Imam is ABOVE ALL ELSE to even see him in human form is a BLESSING. To prostrate before him in a physical form is a BLESSING. ELEPHANTS HAVE PROSTRATED TO THE IMAM IN PUBLIC. Buddy even they can realize who the Imam is. I understand maybe it was wrong in that context and I beg for hurting your opinions. Keep up the good work Kandani

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:44 pm

There is abosolutly nothing wrong with what _theillestlunatic_ did. I was at UFT and I acutally know what happened. If you were there my friend then you also would not be making the comments that you are right now. The council gave everyone such a hard time to the point where they made a mother and her two year old daughter brust into tears. Now you tell me is that fair. Bottem line it all comes up to this.... You people are speaking the language of the intellect and we are speaking the language of the heart. If we _theillestlunatic_ believed what he did was right then there is nothing wrong with that becuase he did not have the intention to show off to people that this is my God, but he did it out of love for our Imam. If the Imam was displeased with him then you would have known. There is no way in hell that when the Imam is upset with you and you wouldnt know about it. You say that the Imam was displeased to see us. When he saw the Jamat outside of the Legistative Office and at UFT his face lit up. It was kind of like when you see someone after a long time and you are releaved to see them. This was the expression on the Imams face. Instead of considering the fact that this young man who could have been anywhere at that time chose to come and see the Imam does that not tell you the amount of faith and love and affection he has for the Imam? Secondly, _theillestlunatic_ did not prostrate infront of the whole world. The only people who saw were the Imam and some other council members and so what if others saw? Are we that ashamed and embarassed of the Imam that we can not show our effetion for him. When the pope recently came to Toronto you should have seen how people were crying before him, and touching his feet and kissing his hand. Now tell me, if they can do that then why can not we do it to someone who we know is the MAZAR OF ALLAH AND WHO HAS THE NOOR OF ALLAH CONSTANTLY PRESENT WITHIN HIM. My friend, _theillestlunatic_ was not bowing down before Sha Karim, he was bowing down before the Noor of Allah. And, speaking on behlaf of all of my friends and colulgues there is ABOSLUTLY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Like I said preveously, it all comes down to this, YOU ARE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE OF THE INTELLECT WHERE AS WE ARE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART. We are not lashing out at the council, I have respect for them as Hazar Imam has told us to respect them becuase He has appointed them. But when you tell three young children that the Imam is very mad at you and when you make a mother and her two year old daughter cry you are pushing the faith of people to its limits. Like I said I was there, and when they (council) told me that the Imam was upset and mad with me it made me think twice about trusting the council ever again becuase the Imam would not get angry over such a futile matter. If the Imam had a problem with what _theillestlunatic_ did then would have stopped approximatly 5-10 feet away from him looked him directly into his eyes and waved at him, and the same applies to me? I dont think so. NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL _theillestlunatic_ THAT WHAT HE DID WAS WRONG, NOT ME NOT YOU NOT COUNCIL NOT MUKI/ KAMRIAS THIS IS STRICTLY BETWEEN THE MURID AND THE IMAM, AND IF THE IMAM FOUND SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT THEN THE MURID WILL KNOW.
I am deeply sorry if I have hurt anyones feelings in this response and if I have I ask you to forgive me

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:56 pm

Ya Aly Madat all,

my dear brother _aminL, I congratulate you on speaking from what
your dil feels what is right. WHY should we feel embarassed?
if the people can do it to the pope why can't we. TELL ME ONE
LIVING ENTETITY WHO HAS THE GUTS TO EVEN SAY HE IS MAZHAR
OF ALLAH?? TELL ME ONE LIVING ENTIETY WHO HAS THE GUTS
TO DEFEND ISLAM IN AMERICA? TELL ME ONE LIVING ENETITY
WHO GETS TREATED LIKE A HEAD OF STATE. TELL ME ONE COUNTRY
WHICH HIS HIGHNESS THE AGA KHAN DOES NOT GET LOYALTY
FROM. NOT EVEN THE POPE CAN SAY I FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS HE SAYS
ASK JESUS. YET, THE AGA KHAN CAN DO IT.

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:04 pm

Ya Ali Madad thaillestlunatic,

First of all, I am NOT judging your faith - that is up to you. But I am stating your opinion on what you did.

The details of the entire incident were related to me - but for security reasons I will not mention my source - who was present at the scene and an eyewitness.

My problem is not with you prostrating to the Imam - thats not the issue here.

My problem is with the context. MHI was NOT visiting to give deedar, and council (under the guidance of the Imam) told Jamat NOT TO ATTEND.

Yet, there are those who think they are smarter than council and know what Imam is thinking - who decide to show up anyway. What we do in public (doesnt matter how many ppl see it) has repercussions for Ismailies around the world - we have to be aware of this.

As for the concept of Imamah, I have a personal understanding of it and I would be happy to exchange opinions and knowlege with you.

As for what happened at JK, let me tell you, belief-wise, I agree with you guys 100%. HOwever, the common ppl (Ismaili or non-Ismaili) easily misinterpret this stuff. I was at HQ, my name is Khalil - i was second the kid that volunteered to go up and answer a question. You guys were sitting behind me.

Btw...none of what i say should be taken personally. I admire you for your strong conviction and knowledge and devotion to the Imam. (something that Ismaili youth lack)

YAM

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:21 pm

I did not sit beside you maybe it was my friend
were you the one who said the Imam is a good looking guy and
that the quran is "old fashioned" if so then I have lots to exchange
with you. Buddy when your heart tells you what to do you do it
now really if Mowla didn't want me there I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN
I know people who because of time or constraints have tried
to see Hazar Imam but just somehow always fail. Why does this happen
maybe the Imam does not want to see them, maybe they aren't
ready to see the Imam. Because seeing the Imam PHYSICALLY
has numerous reprocussions. I agree that saying salwat out loud
isn't the right thing to do but at A DEEDAR COUNCIL IS SAYING
NOT TO RECITE SALWAT NOW WHAT IS THIS? maybe Ismailies
need to realize and recognize who the Imam really is. None of us
can say who he is because HE IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. And Hazar Imam
did not ask council to tell the jamat not to go. Council did. Mowla would
have sent a taliqa and asked his jamat not to visit. If that was the case
by all means I would have shut up and not gone. When council says
not to go for a darbar or deedar then I will not go. But just for a private
visit and me waving at him is not going to make a big difference.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:29 pm

kmaherali, shamsu or star_munir

what do u guys think??

Would love to hear haqiqati input

Thanks,

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:27 pm

I think you did absolutely right. I know coucil is appoineted by Hazir Imam but it is not Perfect. If council or Tariqa board says some thing wrong we must not follow it.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:39 pm

Batuni Deedar of Imam has a great importance but Zaheeri Deedar is also of very importance. Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said To look at the Face of Ali is Ibadat.
Although our tariqa is esoteric but that not means that zahri things have no importance like Zaheeri Deedar,rites and ceremonies etc.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:55 am

absolutely but I am making reference to the " non religous context"
absolutely in jamatkhana or a deedar you can do it now if council
says not to do it in khana then I think there is something really wrong
with the council. After all, they are appointed and CHOSEN from
MHI so we must learn to respect them and communicate with them. I
don't think they did any wrong by sending the message of not going
of course it is a private meeting they have to say it. But I don't feel
the announcement about approperiate decorum and not to visit
sites where Hazar Imam would be at was right. I mean buddy
that is like sayin don't go see your mother and father after HOW many years I have never seen Hazar Imam in my life only once in 1992
and I was 4 years of age now how is a momin suppose to react to that.
The question really is why do ismailes
run and wait in line to see the Imam physically but they can't
even come to jamatkhana to see him.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:34 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:The question really is why do ismailes
run and wait in line to see the Imam physically but they can't
even come to jamatkhana to see him.

This reminds me of an incident that took place in Zanzibar when MHI was waiting for the arrival of Zanzibar's president at a function. There were quite a number of Ismailis who had gathered nearby to get a glimpse and to witness the occassion. It was evening and it was nearing the time of prayer. MHI called a volunteer and told him to tell those gathered to go to JK for prayers and not to wait here!

I tend to agree with Munir. Zaheri Deedar although not important in the broader scheme of things, has its place in our tradition. Everyone in the community is not enlightened to a Batini understanding and therefore these physical appearances provide a boost provided they happen in the right context. Occassional Zaheri Deedar tend to strengthen unity within the Jamats. It is an occassion that brings everyone close to each other. There is a sense of Medo. It creates a gathering where Ismailis from different countries and places comes together. Sometimes you meet individuals whom you could not have met otherwise and after many years.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:17 pm

So according to you this is only importance of Zaheri Deedar.

It is an occassion that brings everyone close to each other. There is a sense of Medo. It creates a gathering where Ismailis from different countries and places comes together. Sometimes you meet individuals whom you could not have met otherwise and after many years.

I knew Batuni Deedar has more importance than Zahiri but plz dont think that there is no or less importance of Zahiri Deedar.
By Zahiri Deedar one get rid from his or her sins. Imam Shafi of Sunni said that "Verily Ali was that into whose eyes shone the light of God."
Hazrat Ali [A.S] said that "I am face of God"
Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said that "To look at the face of Ali is worship."
Pir Sadardin took a long journey of several months to Iran From India for Zahiri Deedar.
In Bhagawad Gita Krishna said to Arjun : "Meray Priya Sakha [Dear friend] tum meray jis roop ko is waqt dekh rahe ho, ussey dekh pana bohot durlubh hai yehan tak k devta [angels] bhi is ati sundar [most beautiful] roop lo dekhnay ki taak mei rehtein hain."
I have written meanings of difficult words in bracket.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:54 am

YAM thaill.....

I am replying to your post as shamsu. Haqiqaties are somethig else.

Imam SMS has made a farman where he says that the jamat is his body.

Whoever hurts the jamat is hurting the body of Imam. I am convinced that when volunteers hurt the jamat it pains the Imam.

Talking about Iman, we all know that Imam is everywhere.
If our Iman/faith in Imam was strong enough we would be having zaheri deedar at all times (using the intellectual eye). Everything we can percieve is all him and it is the same as the Imam that resides in Aiglemont.

I go for Deedar so that He is happy.

Imam has said that when he sees his spiritual children it makes him happy. You could say that us going to deedar makes Imam happy.

My daughter spent almost the entire day walking around the Silk road festival with Imam and Begum Inara in Washington DC.
There was no expression of displeasure at all having the chosen few (about 30) ismailies walking around with him in a public place for almost 7 hours. Infact Imam smiled at them often. (Well there were no council people there to spoil the fun either)

There are directives from council and then there are those who add their own impressions of what makes the Imam unhappy and they then Interact with the jamat and cause heartache.
I have no idea how this will ever stop. It has been very common in almost all jamats. Much worse in uneducated jamats (or leaders).

Well, you do the best you can to understand such behaviors and then you continue on your quest leaving these people for the Imam to deal with.

YAM

Shams

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:42 am

star_munir wrote:So according to you this is only importance of Zaheri Deedar.

It is an occassion that brings everyone close to each other. There is a sense of Medo. It creates a gathering where Ismailis from different countries and places comes together. Sometimes you meet individuals whom you could not have met otherwise and after many years.

I knew Batuni Deedar has more importance than Zahiri but plz dont think that there is no or less importance of Zahiri Deedar.
By Zahiri Deedar one get rid from his or her sins. Imam Shafi of Sunni said that "Verily Ali was that into whose eyes shone the light of God."
Hazrat Ali [A.S] said that "I am face of God"
Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said that "To look at the face of Ali is worship."
Pir Sadardin took a long journey of several months to Iran From India for Zahiri Deedar.
In Bhagawad Gita Krishna said to Arjun : "Meray Priya Sakha [Dear friend] tum meray jis roop ko is waqt dekh rahe ho, ussey dekh pana bohot durlubh hai yehan tak k devta [angels] bhi is ati sundar [most beautiful] roop lo dekhnay ki taak mei rehtein hain."
I have written meanings of difficult words in bracket.

I think you overlooked my statements before that. I said that Zaheri Deedar does give boost to the Iman if it happens in the right context.

The experiences that you allude to do not happen to everyone that encounters the Imam. It all depends on one's perception which is a function of his/her Iman, knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:00 am

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:33 am

YAM

In the case of US there was a clear violation of the Farman, yet the council there did not react in a manner that would cause more aggravation and disharmony. A wise and mature reaction.

I am wondering whether there is a need to instruct the Jamat not to be present in places where MHI appears (physically). Does the presence of Ismailis on the streets really cause interference with his objectives? Does it cause any public nuisance?

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:19 pm

the Council has to announce it in jamatkhana when it is a
private visit or official. In my opinion, it does not cause any
harm with regards to MHI not getting hes work done. However
if it was not announced in jamatkhana there would be 30,000 ismailies
waiting for the Imam and how would the media respond. What if
ignorant Ismailies are asked by the media that why is there such a
big crowd? How will they respond. So in that case I agree that council
has to announce it in jamatkhana. But either way I would still go. For
me to wave at the Imam and be uplifted dosen't effect the Imam,
it makes the Imam even more happy. It is just the council who dosen't
like it.

YAM

sheri · Post by **sheri** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:49 pm

I think Mr. Kandani is absolutely right. The council is right in every way. Firstly, MHI say to respect the elders, hence you are not doing that if you are going against the council. There is a lot of aggressiveness in today’s youth. They just want to do what they think is right without even thinking how it could affect others. Okay now this should end this hostile discussion after this post if you all are sensible and intellectual people. Read this and try to think hard before anyone of you comment. I am sure all of you know why MHI pictures were removed from the front of the JK to be put on the side of the JK. Obvious isn’t it. When the opposing Muslims got into our JK and got us to change our ways think about the influence they have. When we can’t do what we wish inside JK’s and MHI responded by moving them to the side. Now it should have been only for Pakistan’s jamat because that’s where this issue was raised. So why don’t Canadian like you protest against this and put HI’s photos back in the front. Go on do it. We are one jamat and we believe in brotherhood more than anything……and if that is so hard for you both to accept then do what you feel is right. You guys need to think harder. Where as MR.Kmerherali, Star Munir and shamsu are concerned you guys need to be a bit logical and talk things out rather than just looking everything through a religious point of view. There needs to be a balance.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:11 pm

sheri wrote:Where as MR.Kmerherali, Star Munir and shamsu are concerned you guys need to be a bit logical and talk things out rather than just looking everything through a religious point of view. There needs to be a balance.

Could you please give me one example from my posts which seems illogical or unbalanced to you?

As for the photograph issue, MHI during his last padhramni at Houston, stated (this was reported in one of the newspapers) that all forms of iconography are prohibited in Islam. That satisfies me and I do not need to protest about it any more.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:45 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote: However if it was not announced in jamatkhana there would be 30,000 ismailies waiting for the Imam and how would the media respond. What if ignorant Ismailies are asked by the media that why is there such a big crowd? How will they respond. So in that case I agree that council has to announce it in jamatkhana. But either way I would still go. For me to wave at the Imam and be uplifted dosen't effect the Imam, it makes the Imam even more happy. It is just the council who dosen't
like it.

YAM

So what if there are 30,000 (which is a gross overstatement ) on the streets. The RCMP could be advised in advance for extra security. What if the ignorant Ismailis told the truth that they were standing to see their Imam. What harm could that do? There could also be announcements made in JKs to inform the Jamat to direct Media questions to the appropriate people at the site.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:21 am

YAM Sheri,

I have been pondering on your post since yesterday and the only thing I can come up with is, do you mean religious or do you mean spiritual

Where as MR.Kmerherali, Star Munir and shamsu are concerned you guys need to be a bit logical and talk things out rather than just looking everything through a religious point of view. There needs to be a balance.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesnt it seem like what you are saying is that logic and religion are polar opposites.

Please tell me you did not mean that. Our Imam says religion should appeal to reason.
I have always thought that reason was superior to logic. i think one of our Dai's has also stated this.

Any way. Looking forward to your reply

Shams

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:41 am

Ya Ali Madad Sheri
Sheri, the people who are are enimies of ismailism will always remain no matter whatever we do.How can you say that council is right in every way? Is council perfect? We should respect elders and thaillestlunatic is not against council but we should not follow elders if they are wrong.
There was a book published by IIS which is against Ginans and therefore against Ismailism so should I believe or appreciate or follow it? We should follow only if it is correct and thaillestlunatic is not doing wrong if he says that he will go for deedar and will only not go if Imam says not to come so this is quite correct that if Imam has no problem and Imam has not sent taliqa to not to come to see His holy face than who has right to stop him from getting Deedar of Hazir Imam or recting salwat etc. Yes if there is any Farman or Taliqa or Ginan about it that stops him from recting salwat in public place than he would be wrong but I dont think there is any.

alinizar313 · Post by **alinizar313** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:40 pm

kmaherali wrote:
sheri wrote:Where as MR.Kmerherali, Star Munir and shamsu are concerned you guys need to be a bit logical and talk things out rather than just looking everything through a religious point of view. There needs to be a balance.
Yes, They are right. We should absolutely look everything through a religious and spiritual point of view. This is not my statement but MHI said in his firman recently made in Pakistan in which he said that we must apply our religion ( faith) in our daily material life. He further said "live your material life in accordance to the guidelines for spiritual life"
"Jiyan joiye chhiye tiyan rooh dost ne joiye chhiye" (KIM 1)

sheri · Post by **sheri** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:41 am

There will be enemies in every religion even within the religion. Its in your hands to choose between right and wrong. When someone is appointed by HI to represent him(the council) then we should not sterotype that the whole council is evil. Where there are humans there will always be some wrong doing. I was requesting that it is better not to argue but to just do what you think is correct in the spiritual sense. When the council members said that dont do this and dont do that......there could be a reason to that. They are not mad to come up with such things. We could respect what they say and say the salwat in our heads rather than blabbing it out loud. The consequences of such acts are bad and everyone who has lived in the third world knows that. Whereas me saying that say something more logical.....i meant that looking at religion what happened at UoT was absolutely right.....but if we look at the conditions in the world today that act was totally wrong, and rather than saying that it is right what happened, it is better to say that what was done was right if done for self satisfaction, but as it would have consequeses such as raise issues in the muslim umah then that act should be labbeled wrong. This is what i meant that there are other logical reasons and we should not ignore them just because of our religious belief. There is a time and place were certain things are appropriate and that should be well understood.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:08 pm

YAM Sheri

If my memory serves me correctly, in the announcement that was made in JK regarding MHI visits to Canada, the reason mentioned for prohibiting members of the Jamat to be at places were MHI was expected to be present was that it would interefere with the objectives of his visit. It is against this background that I raised the question whether the presence of Ismailis on the streets would really interfere with the objectives and whether it would really cause public nuisance.

Although from the perspective of our theology, Zaheri Deedar is not significant, there is a segment of our Jamat that do feel the need to have this physical contact especially when it has been over a decade since MHI last visited the Jamat in Canada. I feel that because of this we should not be over restrictive in these matters provided some general rules are observed such as not saying Salwaats loudly, not bowing to the Imam in public and referring any questions from the Media to the right people at the sight. Also provided they do not interfere with the times of our Tariqah practices.

On the broader issue of the impact of our actions upon the Jamats world wide, I agree that we should restrict Batini matters to Batini contexts and avoid actions such as proclaiming Imam to be God in public. However I do not believe that we should really stretch this issue too far, it would be tantamount to practicing Taqqiyah. Do our women start covering their heads in Canada? Certainly not. We must allow pluralism to flourish because it is strengthening to societies. And we must also promote pluralism in other parts of the world and make other Muslims appreciate the strength that comes from the diversity of interpretation, of thought, of culture, of languages etc. Islam cannot be monolithic else it is doomed.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:28 pm

Ya Aly Madat,

so what if there are 30,000 ismailies to see the Imam or waiting
to see him at Queen's Park of U OF T. There were hundreds of non
ismailies waiting to see the Imam but this wasn't a problem. I agree
the batuni deedar is much more significant and approperiate but
when you physically see the Imam all your sins are forgiven, it is
like being born again.

I would like to share a very significant story that happend in East Africa and Imam SMS had a meeting with council and told the leaders not to tell
anyone in the jamat that a deedar would happen. 2 weeks later, the entire jamat was present and the Imam was furiated. He yelled who is the man responsible for bringing the entire jamat here and a very religious man
stood up and said "Khudavind, I have" So Imam SMS started laughing and Imam asked him why did you do na farmani of my farmans and bring all these people here. The man said Khudavind, I only wanted the entire jamat to get their sins forgiven and be blessed with the zaheri deedar. Imam SMS then blessed him and the deedar continued.

We must learn to realize that yes council has been appointed from the Imam but they are not the Imam whatever they say is not straight
from the Imam. Yes, in certain cases the Imam will give guidance and hidayat. But, if the Imam sends a taliqa
saying don't go like he did in Houston then by all means I will not go.

I could be wrong let's all accept the premise the Imam is always happy

to see his spiritual children ( Public or Jamatkhana)

MAM

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:18 pm

Even if there were so many people at Queens Park and at UFT there is nothing wrong with going to see your Imam. If the Imam were to come to Toronto again I as an individual would go to see him unless he sent a taliqa saying not to come. You can not base your faith on what other people believe. so what if other people had a problem with you going there. This relationship is between the Imam and the murid. There is no way that you are going to see the Imam unless he wants to see you himself. AND THIS IS A FACT.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:18 pm

Ya Aly Madat,

I heard there is a farman where MHI says to respect the wishes

of the council. Does anyone have this farman or heard of it??

Thanks

positive · Post by **positive** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:52 pm

Just wanted to share my views based on the various comments made blaming the council.... it seems that the council members (some of them)> are probably not using a proper;attitude when communicating to the members of our jamat;(be it in public or elsewhere) some council members and I repeat "SOME" not majority- misuse the power of authority given to them; this is either due to their own lack of communication/management skills. This is something that the Chairman or Secretary should sometimes or when newly appointed, at the beginning of the term be discussed as a "general topic" and probably some issues on communication and management style be touched on.

Secondly, in my opinion, if you as an OFFICIAL representative or a member in council and their immediate families MUST thrive to set GENUINE examples of Mowla's wishes, expectations, etc..... and they (council members) must under all circumstances and at all times take extra steps and caution to ensure to practice before preaching ..... otherwise in my opinion the jamat will not and even the future generations will have difficulty; to fall back upon the council for many issues, etc. Better communication strategies and management styles will definitely enhance a better responsive jamat in the long term.

Besides Mowla Bapa has told us we are all brothers and sisters therefore we ought to make a Mission of Statement and one of them should be to help each other out without expecting recognition or a token; guide and advice based on the tariqas of our faith bearing in mind the tolerance and generosity that is required of every Ismaili; and this comes with practice and patience - this can also be achieved if we first begin to change our thinking and aims/goals in life- always try to look at the good more than the bad when analyzing a situation; then only we shall perhaps be able to do something for our own jamat despite their ocassional negativity.

The level of tolerance and patience and a clear thinking can also be built by praying every day; reading about our history etc.
Sewa or setting a good example does not mean that you wear a uniform or have to be a mukhiani or kamadiani or mukhisaheb or kamadia saheb or be a member of council.

In short it is a two way communication and people that have been given the "official" designation of representating Mowla Bapa or to serve HIS house have to go a mile further and have the opportunity to do so in an appropriate manner....especially when communicating with a member of a jamat; extra caution needs to be taken because this will have a better impact.
On the other hand it is ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY of every member in the Jamat to be PROUD of having a council and offices and leaders; (no matter what or how); because the JAMAT ALSO has to see what they can do to please Mowla, do you know what how Mowla replies during HIS interviews with the public - depending the question being asked He refers as to how His councils does this and that so bearing this in mind we too as a jamat should NOT make a big issue when some council members behave unprofessionally or rudely we too because of our MOWLA have to be understanding towards our leaders and council members even if we feel they did not perform a duty appropriately - and especially when we are out in public we MUST take steps and ensure that the little misunderstandings don't escalate and get to a point where the non-Ismaili public gets involved. Let us do that for Mowla Bapa and NOT for that individual member of the Council or the Leader.....Right away we should think how would Mowla Bapa want us to resolve this issue.... so you have to swallow the pill without too much fuss and deal with it at a later stage when things have calmed down....; sincerely hoping that this message will somewhat give little light to a change of thought and help towards working more on our levels of tolerance and patience whenever unfair things happen to us; we are all humans to feel the way we do.... but hopefully we can at that moment specially think how will Mowla feel if we act and talk inappropriately about HIS council and leaders.... it is also our responsibility to help them see the other side of the coin and let us do it nicely - this will have a better effect and rewards in the long term.
And yes when in public I believe it is not appropriate to pray to Mowla by showing an ACTION eg. if you are saying Salwaat then you get carried away and do the actions - the non-Ismail public does not understand and we don't want Mowla to get an unnecessary raise of brow from the non-Ismailis these actions have to be private although when you are praying from inside NOBODY can know only your MOWLA so what's the point of showing all that in public ?? He knows that you do that when you are in J.K. so I do agree that actions like kneeling down, running from one end to another, putting hands together like when we do in TOBHA are not necessary in public.... I have seen some pictures where some people (Ismailis) do an act of TOBHA and I decided to analyze as to how Mowla feels or reacts when he see that action and in my humble opinion if I may share with you - I felt that Mowla Bapa ignored that person and continued greeting the rest of the group.... so when in public I think some actions have to be controlled just concentrate on the prayers that you are saying in your mind - MOWLA knows it all....

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