arabic language

[zaara.ebrahim]

YAA ALI MADAD,
I WANT TO ASK ABOUT arabic language.
I want to know about arabic language & also the farman of moula about this language. so if any one have some knowledge so plz share with me.

[TheMaw]

YAA ALI MADAD,
I WANT TO ASK ABOUT arabic language.
I want to know about arabic language & also the farman of moula about this language. so if any one have some knowledge so plz share with me.

It is a good investment to learn the language of the Prophet and God's Book. It is the language of our spiritual (and in some cases lineal) ancestors and our Dua is in Arabic. Many of the greatest Ismaili leaders in history were Arabic-speaking and wrote in that language.

Plus, as Ismailis, our history is one of the greatest respect and love for learning.

I cannot quote a framaan for you, but if there is one thing Ismailis are known for, it is scholarship. In fact, one of the most widely-used Qur'anic translations available today was done by an Ismaili, Abdullah Yusuf Ali (although he was a Dawudi Bohra or Musta'li, not a Nizari).

I also recommend investing in Classical Persian (which is essentially the same as modern Persian, although with some different vocabulary) because of the importance of that language to Islam - and Ismailism's - spread. Our great thinkers also wrote in that language, for example Tusi and Nasir Khusraw.

Plus, you know, it's really easy...

Y.A.M.

[Biryani]

Few years ago, I had an audio cassette of Ismaili Dua by missionary Kamaluddin recorded by Ismailia Association for Pakistan, Karachi. It was a wonderful recording. In that, missionary Kamaluddin first recites a Farman Mubarak of Mowlana Hazar Imam (AS) About Dua, its meaning and Arabic Language and its importance for us. There is a huge Ismaili literary treasure in Arabic and also in Persian. Unfortunately, I left that cassette in a rental car and could never recover it back…honestly; I have never heard a recitation of Ismaili Dua with such perfect pronunciation and a melodious tone and rhythm. He also recited the Urdu translation after each sentence or verse of the Dua. I am thinking about contacting Ismaili Tariqah Board in Karachi to see if they can provide me a copy of that cassette.

Learning Arabic cannot go wrong in anyway…personally, I‘ve always admired Arabic Language, not because of it’s religious roots but also for its contemporary significance, but just never had enough time and courage to learn it.

[ShamsB]

Few years ago, I had an audio cassette of Ismaili Dua by missionary Kamaluddin recorded by Ismailia Association for Pakistan, Karachi. It was a wonderful recording. In that, missionary Kamaluddin first recites a Farman Mubarak of Mowlana Hazar Imam (AS) About Dua, its meaning and Arabic Language and its importance for us. There is a huge Ismaili literary treasure in Arabic and also in Persian. Unfortunately, I left that cassette in a rental car and could never recover it back…honestly; I have never heard a recitation of Ismaili Dua with such perfect pronunciation and a melodious tone and rhythm. He also recited the Urdu translation after each sentence or verse of the Dua. I am thinking about contacting Ismaili Tariqah Board in Karachi to see if they can provide me a copy of that cassette.

Learning Arabic cannot go wrong in anyway…personally, I‘ve always admired Arabic Language, not because of it’s religious roots but also for its contemporary significance, but just never had enough time and courage to learn it.

The majority of us khojas can not be bothered to learn how to read and write gujrati..some of us don't even speak it....and that is our mother language..how many of us will actually go and learn arabic..it's a good ideal to aspire to....but..to get to it?


Shams

[Biryani]

For some it could be a real challenge…depending upon their background especially where they are originally from and raised. I know a ton of khojas from Pakistan who can read and write very well in Arabic, though cannot speak it fluently as speech requires practice and environment….

beside that, Arabic is an International language unlike a local or regional language like Gujarati. Though, there are some good Ismaili books written in Guajarati by local scholars of Indo-Pak, there is no comparison between Arabic and Gujarati. I don’t mean to offend any Gujarati speakers, but to me it would be like comparing corn for the cattle with Apples or Grapes.

[ShamsB]

For some it could be a real challenge…depending upon their background especially where they are originally from and raised. I know a ton of khojas from Pakistan who can read and write very well in Arabic, though cannot speak it fluently as speech requires practice and environment….

beside that, Arabic is an International language unlike a local or regional language like Gujarati. Though, there are some good Ismaili books written in Guajarati by local scholars of Indo-Pak, there is no comparison between Arabic and Gujarati. I don’t mean to offend any Gujarati speakers, but to me it would be like comparing corn for the cattle with Apples or Grapes.

Hazar Imam in 1978 in London said to the mainly indo sub pak jamat - do not forget the faith and traditions of your forefathers.

In regards to our Ginanic knowledge and Granths - written by our Pirs in India - the majority of that is in the Indo Sub Pak continent.

We've gone from Ya Ali Madad to YAM - what makes one think that someone is going to learn a language that is foreign to themselves.

Also there are probably more hindi/urdu speakers in the world than arabic speakers just based on sheer numbers.

[agakhani]

There is nothing wrong to learn Arabic language if someone want to learn it to better understand Quran-E-Sharif and other valuable books. Inshaallah I will learn Arabic one of day. Here is the list of most spoken Indo- Pak languages (including Arabic) by Ismailis and somewhat some Ismaili literatures available in these languages. The s.q. number showing its number as per the list of most sopken languages in the world.

S.Q. : Name of language : Speakers in millions


3, Hindi 490 Millions speakers:
5, Arabic 255 Millions speakers
8, Bengali 215 Millions speakers
13, Persian 110 Millions spearkers
14, Urdu 104 Millions speakers
15, Punjabi 103 Millions speakers
17, Tamil 78 Millions speakers *
21, Telugu 74 Millions speakers*
27, Gujarati 47 Millions speakers

* I know lots of Ismailis who speaks Tamil and Telugu alongwith Gujarati from southern India (Hyderabad, India). however there is no Ismaili literature available in these two languages as per my undertanding like ginans, Granths e.t.c. correct me if I am wrong in this.

[Admin]

There are Farmans about learning Eastern Languages. There is a recent one to the Dubai Jamat to learn Arabic. And we should not forget that Hazar Imam has said in his LBC Nov. 2001 interview that we have made of English our second language.

In May 1993, Dacca he said "try to acquire a working knowledge, as a minimum, of the language of the country in which you live and of the English language. In other words, I have said it doesn't matter whether it is Swahili and English, or Arabic and English, or Bengali and English, or Farsi and English, that is not important. What is important is that you should have a working command of a national language in which you live and work, and of an international language which gives you the freedom to communicate in a world society, with access particularly to the technology of this time in the developing world today."

[Biryani]

Faith and traditions of your forefathers?...Hinduism or even beyond that?

I’m not sure if Hazar Imam implicitly meant to include the language of your forefathers in that.

Yes, Ginan and other ismaili religious scriptures are in Indian regional languages but mentioning that to someone who wants to learn Arabic is like…what are you talking about???

People’s personal usage of abbreviation has no official standing…I admit it sounds unpleasant to me too but that is nothing to do with someone who wants to learn a language as great as Arabic. And all these numbers of people who speak these local languages around the world can’t justify any relevancy against Arabic as an important and original language of Islam, it’s founders and the greater Muslim Ummah covering a mass and geo-politically and commercially a very important area.

Regardless of indifference of majority of Ismailies in North America, India and some other parts of world for Arabic and to some degree general Islamic studies, I’ve sensed that there has been some lack of initiatives from our institutions as well. I have discussed it directly and indirectly to some relevant people and they have given the cold shoulders or showed no sincere acknowledgement of the need without any solid explanations. But lately, I think and hope that through IIS, there are some initiatives in this regard; for example introduction of some elementary or basic curriculum, if not a detailed course, of Arabic in near future.

In the past, our Ismaili Muslim Tariqah had been kind of hidden or practiced in a closed environment. We did not have to face or explain Ismailism to other Muslims or non Muslims on a regular basis because the Muslim and also the non Muslim world were docile and moving rather slowly information and relationship wise. But since recent technological revolution in information sciences and globalizations of the people and economies we are much more exposed to the world (Thanks to AKDN and other Ismaili projects around the world) so consequently we, as Ismaili Muslims, are much more wondered about. So we have to be ready to justify our Ismaili Tariqah with greater Islamic affinity and principles and having some basic knowledge of Arabic, Quran Sharif and basic Islamic studies should be one of the first few steps that we can take.

[ShamsB]

Faith and traditions of your forefathers?...Hinduism or even beyond that?

I’m not sure if Hazar Imam implicitly meant to include the language of your forefathers in that.

Yes, Ginan and other ismaili religious scriptures are in Indian regional languages but mentioning that to someone who wants to learn Arabic is like…what are you talking about???

People’s personal usage of abbreviation has no official standing…I admit it sounds unpleasant to me too but that is nothing to do with someone who wants to learn a language as great as Arabic. And all these numbers of people who speak these local languages around the world can’t justify any relevancy against Arabic as an important and original language of Islam, it’s founders and the greater Muslim Ummah covering a mass and geo-politically and commercially a very important area.

Regardless of indifference of majority of Ismailies in North America, India and some other parts of world for Arabic and to some degree general Islamic studies, I’ve sensed that there has been some lack of initiatives from our institutions as well. I have discussed it directly and indirectly to some relevant people and they have given the cold shoulders or showed no sincere acknowledgement of the need without any solid explanations. But lately, I think and hope that through IIS, there are some initiatives in this regard; for example introduction of some elementary or basic curriculum, if not a detailed course, of Arabic in near future.

In the past, our Ismaili Muslim Tariqah had been kind of hidden or practiced in a closed environment. We did not have to face or explain Ismailism to other Muslims or non Muslims on a regular basis because the Muslim and also the non Muslim world were docile and moving rather slowly information and relationship wise. But since recent technological revolution in information sciences and globalizations of the people and economies we are much more exposed to the world (Thanks to AKDN and other Ismaili projects around the world) so consequently we, as Ismaili Muslims, are much more wondered about. So we have to be ready to justify our Ismaili Tariqah with greater Islamic affinity and principles and having some basic knowledge of Arabic, Quran Sharif and basic Islamic studies should be one of the first few steps that we can take.

So you're saying to be a muslim means to speak Arabic?

Shams

[Admin]

"We did not have to face or explain Ismailism "

If I remember properly, Hazar Imam said in Madagascar Jubilee that he is asked to explain and he refuses to explain, he says "go and see what we are doing"

Also in one interview in Tajikistan, he was asked about the media writings false things and what he would reply and he said let the mad dogs bark, I have too many things to do...

This is not about the Arabic language for which he has said it is one of the most beautiful and most complete languages [not exact words] but this is about explaining Ismailism to outside people trying to create controversies...

[Biryani]

No, no, no…I mean that we should, at least, know the basics of Arabic language or familiar with it to a certain level, as Muslims and/or just for any other interests, that we are able to read and maybe write too. Speaking Arabic is definitely not a pre requisite to be a Muslim. (Shams, I wonder why you would even think that I could even be implying that). But it is great if somebody is interested in learning Arabic…and I don’t think others should discourage or distract him or her in anyway.

Following is a very powerful excerpt of a speech, given in favor of Arabic to be Pakistan's national language over Urdu, by Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III after the creation of Pakistan at a session of Motamer al-Alam-al-Islamiyya on February 9, 1951 in Karachi.

“...I can assure you that it is not with a light heart that I address you this evening. I fully realise that what I am going to say will make me most unpopular with important sections of the population. However, I would be a traitor to Islam if I let this opportunity pass without placing before the people of this powerful and populous Islamic nation the views which I consider my duty to place before the Muslims with as many of the arguments as I am capable of using in a short address.

I fear some of my arguments will mortally offend those who under totally different conditions gave so much of their life for the support of the cause which I think today has been passed by events far more important than any dreamt of in those days. I feel the responsibility greater than any I can think of to place my views and arguments before the Muslim population of Pakistan as a whole - each and every province - while what I consider a tragic and deadly step is not yet taken and not added to the constitution of this realm.

The language of a nation is not only the expression of its own voice but the mode of interpretation with all other human societies. Before it is too late, I, an old man, implore my brothers in Islam here not to finally decide for Urdu as the national language of Pakistan but to choose Arabic. Please hear my arguments.

If what was the other part of the former British Empire of India had made Urdu its national language, there would have been a great argument for Pakistan doing ditto. It could have been a linguistic and important point of contact with the vast Republic of the South. I am the last man on earth to desire to break any bridge of contact and understanding between Pakistan and its immense neighbour. Not only Urdu but even Hindustani has been replaced by Hindi throughout Bharat as the national language. The people of Bharat were perfectly justified to choose any language which the majority considered most appropriate and historically justified to be their national language. The majority there has the right to choose what was most suitable for them as the official language of the country.

Your choice in Pakistan of Urdu will in no way ameliorate or help your relations with your neighbour, nor will it help the Muslim minorities there in any conceivable way. Howsoever you may add Arabic and Persian words to Urdu there is no denying the fact that the syntax, the form, the fundamentals of the language are derived from Hindi and not from Arabic. Was Urdu the language of the Muslims of India at the time of their glory? During the long Pathan period, Urdu was never considered the language of the rulers.

Now we come to the Moghul Empire in the period of its glory. It was not the language of the educated. I defy anybody to produce a letter or any other form of writing by Emperors Aurangzeb, Shah Jehan, Jehangir, Akbar, Humayun or Babar in Urdu language. All that was spoken at the Court was Persian or occasional Turkish. I have read many of the writings of Aurangzeb and they are in beautiful Persian. Same is true if you go to the Taj Mahal and read what is written on the tombs of the Emperor and his famous consort. Persian was the court language and the language of the educated and even till the early 19th century in far Bengal, the Hindu intelligentsia wrote and used Persian and not Urdu. Up to the time of Macaulay, Persian was the language of Bengali upper classes irrespective of faith and of official documents and various Sadar Adalat. We must look historical facts in the face. Urdu became the language of Muslim India after the downfall. It is a language associated with the downfall. Its great poets are of the downfall period. The last and the greatest of them was lqbal, who with the inspiration of revival gave up Urdu poetry for Persian poetry. There was a meeting in Iqbal’s honour in London organised by men such as Prof. Nicholson. I was present at that meeting. Iqbal said that he went in for Persian poetry because it was associated with the greatness of the Islamic epoch and not with its misfortunes. Is it right that the language of the downfall period should become the national language of what we hope now is a phoenix-like national rising? All the great masters of Urdu belong to the period of greatest depression and defeat. It was then a legitimate attempt by the use of a language of Hindi derivation with Arabic and Persian words to find ways and means of better understanding with the then majority fellow countrymen.

Today that vast British dependency is partitioned and succeeded by two independent and great nations and the whole world hopes that both sides now accept partition as final. Is it a natural and national language of the present population of Pakistan? Is it the language of Bengal where the majority of Muslims live? Is it what you. hear in the streets of Dacca or Chittagong? Is it the language of the North West Frontier? Is it the language of Sind? Is it the language of the Punjab? Certainly after the fall of the Mughal Empire the Muslims and Hindus of certain areas found in it a common bond, but now today other forms of bridges must be found for mutual understanding. Who were the creators of Urdu? What are the origins of Urdu? Where did it come from? The camp followers, the vast Hindi-speaking population attached to the Imperial Court who adapted, as they went along, more Arabic and Persian words into the syntax. of their own language just as in later days the English words such as glass and cup became part of a new form of Urdu called Hindustani. Are you going to make the language of the Camp, or of the Court, the national language of your new-born realm? Every Muslim child of a certain economic standard learns the Quran in Arabic, whether he is from Dacca or Quetta. He learns Arabic to read the Quran.

Arabic is the language of Islam. The Qur’an is in Arabic. The Prophet’s hadith are in Arabic. The highest form of Islamic culture in Spain was in Arabic. Your children must learn Arabic to a certain extent always. The same is true of your West whether Sind, Baluchistan or the North. From the practical and worldly point of view, Arabic will give you, as a national language, immediate contact not only with the 40 million Arabic-speaking people of independent nations on your West, but the other 60 million more or less Arabic-speaking people who are not independent but who exist in Africa. Right up to the Atlantic, not only in North but as far South as Nigeria and the Gold Coast, Arabic is known to the upper classes of the population. In all the Sudans, on the Nile or under French rule, Arabic is the language right up to the borders of Portuguese West Africa. In East Africa, not only in Zanzibar but amongst the Muslim population of even countries as far apart as Madagascar and Portuguese East Africa, Arabic is known. If we turn to the Far East, Arabic has prospered throughout the region inhabited by 80 million Muslims of Indonesia, Malaya and Philippines. In Ceylon, Muslim children of the well-to-do classes get some knowledge of Arabic.

Is it not right and proper that this powerful Muslim State of Pakistan, with its central geographical position, its bridges between the nearly 100 million Muslims of the East and 100 million Muslims of the West - its position of the East from Philippines and the Great State of Indonesia and Malaya and Burma and then westward with the hundred millions in Africa, right up to the Atlantic, should make Arabic its national language and not isolate itself from all its neighbors and from the world of Islam with a language that was associated with the period of downfall of Muslim States.

And finally, whi1e Arabic, as a universal language of the Muslim world will unite, Urdu will divide and isolate. Gentlemen, brothers in Islam, people of Pakistan, people of every Province, I appeal to you, before you take the final and what I unfortunately must say, I consider, the fatal jump down the precipice, please discuss and let all and every one contribute their views. Take time and think over it. Once more I appeal for Islamic charity from those whom I may have offended and I appeal to all others to look to the facts in the face both historically and as they exist at present. I pray that the people of this country may be guided by Divine Wisdom before they decide.”

[Biryani]

Well, I’m not saying that authorities or media and intellectuals were inquiring or demanding us to explain or justify Ismailism. Because they could simply go and dig in the libraries and such and educate themselves about Ismaili Muslims and their faith. In certain countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia they did undermine, discriminate and sometimes were persecuting the Ismailies and their religious practices since they were not accepting the Ismaili tariqah according to their theological standards.

Rather, I meant that average people in the neighborhoods and streets, for example in Pakistan and Afghanistan, didn’t have intellectual capacities and resources to understand and accept the Ismaili tariqah as another Muslim school of thought and practice. I remember my adolescence years when my fellow students in school used to be confused about Ismaili Muslims and the personality of the Aga khan and sometimes were accusing us with some silly and disgraceful remarks and we could not explain or justify our answers due to our limited knowledge of Quran Sharif and Islamic history. I am sure most of Ismailies know what I am talking about here…

But that whole dogmatic environment is probably shifting or will be shifting toward more pluralistic and comprehensive ideals and standards due to the time (information) that we are living in now. Though, certain elements can never be appeased and may get even more aggressive against Ismailism but I suppose that would a very small minority.

So we Ismailies have to do our part and knowing Arabic (more or less) will definitely help us here.

Admin, what I was trying to say is that in the old days with much less resources of information available about each other we were facing occasional challenges and that can turn into more frequent scenarios with time. What you are mentioning is probably some isolated cases of poor journalism; no intellectual should ever ask anybody to explain his faith in an interview of an hour or two. How can anyone explain a 1400 or more years of dynamics, history and their interpretations? That’s where the schools and researches come in. Aga Khan IV rarely lashes out on idiotic references like that but he had said it just perfectly whenever he had to.

[TheMaw]

I wanted to add one last comment: our Du'a is in Classical Arabic. This is a change from the past: we are all learning the Classical Arabic du'a, which contains Qur'anic verses. Classical Arabic is the language of the Qur'an, of the du'a and of our spiritual predecessors until long after the Fatimids. We should endeavour to study Classical Arabic.

[ShamsB]

I wanted to add one last comment: our Du'a is in Classical Arabic. This is a change from the past: we are all learning the Classical Arabic du'a, which contains Qur'anic verses. Classical Arabic is the language of the Qur'an, of the du'a and of our spiritual predecessors until long after the Fatimids. We should endeavour to study Classical Arabic.

My point wasn't that we shouldn't arabic - my point was that this is an ideal that we can aspire to. Our kids today barely speak gujrati or cutchi or urdu....and even the english has devolved into ebonics - ismaili ebonics ..

Shams

[TheMaw]

My point wasn't that we shouldn't arabic - my point was that this is an ideal that we can aspire to. Our kids today barely speak gujrati or cutchi or urdu....and even the english has devolved into ebonics - ismaili ebonics ..

The loss of similar languages in Jewish communities is equally as lamentable and include most prominently Ladino, Tmazight (Berber), Colloquial Arabic languages, Colloquial Modern Aramaic languages, various Turkic languages, Judeo-Georgian, Ethiopic languages and Yiddish.

But the Jewish community everywhere learns Classical Hebrew and Classical Aramaic: these are their languages of the Book and its commentaries.

The maintainance of heritage languages is important, but the issue of Arabic is separate. A significant proportion of Ismailis are Khojas and there are cultural, historic and religious reasons to maintain their heritage languages, whether that be Siraiki, Gujarati or Sindhi, just like there are the same reasons for Jewish communities to foster the continued support of their heritage languages.

Each ethnicity brings its own unique view of the faith to the table, and every loss is grievous. Still, that is not relevant to the issue of the responsibility of the Muslim to learn to read the Qur'an and the commentaries.

One does not replace the other; they are complementary issues.

[agakhani]

Only in India, there are 700 languages will be extinct soon . Gujarati, Punjabi, Urdu are one of them. According the predictors only few languages will be remain in the world with in 150-200 years and English is one of them.
Few years ago I read a magazine and according that magazine the future of English, French and German languages are very bright but the other hand the future of the other languages are poor. If you have noticed or not but more and more Indian film makers using now a days 'HINGLISH' language in the movies (mix of English and Hindi) and young generation like that kind language.
That magazine also wrote that every week one langaues in the world is disapearing, so soon or latter Gujarati, Urdu or may be Arabic will be disapear or extinct, Why? the reasons are very simple; more and more parents enroll their childrens in English medium schools and ignore their own mother tounge this kind problems are in almost all countries. They beleive that English is the International language and technology language which is true. Our Beloved Mowlana Hazar Imam also insist us to learn English language. I totaly agree with Shams that our Ismaili kids do not speak Gujarati, Urdu, sindhi/Katchi. or other languages fluently and that is the pity for our mother toungue. I have three kids they all raised and graduated in U.S. University, but in my house I always speak with them either in Gujarati or in Urdu/Hindi so they do not forget that languages. We taught them never feel ebrassed in front of other guest because this is our mother tounge and we have to respect it.

[Biryani]

Men…why do you guys have to spread the crap of all these kacchi pacchi, lassi, punjabi, gunjabi…pujarati, gujarati, sindi, pindi, and whatnot on something so high and grandeur, so unique and uniting and so beneficial. Why are we living with this unnecessary ghost of previous cultural crap on our shoulders that did not give us anything but just the yearning to escape from there in the first place? Cultures, languages and people evolve for the benefits and well being for themselves and sometimes thorns get along like ebonics and bubonics...but we have to just avoid them.

I personally don’t believe in the idea of sticking with the cultural baggage with ancestral languages just because we fell like we should stick with them to show the respect and feel obligated to do so or else we are breaking some sorta moral laws or committing a crime or sin.… These types of things are personal priorities and should be kept so on individual basis.

Bottom line is that if you have something so micro that gives you some satisfaction or benefits, fine. Keep it. Don’t lose it. But don’t generalize it and try to impose on others without any justification. Keep the good stuff, and drop the “bad and unnecessary” crap. And that’s what is actually happens in general. It’s like you can’t go against the storm in this ocean of languages and cultures, powerful and smart will devour the weak and dumb. That’s just the way it’s been and going to be. I like to look ahead and up...Not toward back or down. Be vigilant and let the nature take its course….

I am an Urdu and English speaker and can fluently read and write Arabic and understand it partly (Thanks to the Arab co-workers). My wife is Persian and I would like my two year old son to learn Arabic and Persian along with English and French.

I take that whenever our Imam tells us to not forget our traditions and faith. He means to keep the good and necessary things in our faith and traditions that help us and others and cannot be replaced, for example Jamat Khana attendance and other activities like Majalis and religious school, generosity and forgiveness, unity in families, volunteerism and the sense of a law abiding community in peace and prosperity and all the other good stuff…

The case of Arabic is along with English, French and other notable international languages.

[ShamsB]

Men…why do you guys have to spread the crap of all these kacchi pacchi, lassi, punjabi, gunjabi…pujarati, gujarati, sindi, pindi, and whatnot on something so high and grandeur, so unique and uniting and so beneficial. Why are we living with this unnecessary ghost of previous cultural crap on our shoulders that did not give us anything but just the yearning to escape from there in the first place? Cultures, languages and people evolve for the benefits and well being for themselves and sometimes thorns get along like ebonics and bubonics...but we have to just avoid them.

I personally don’t believe in the idea of sticking with the cultural baggage with ancestral languages just because we fell like we should stick with them to show the respect and feel obligated to do so or else we are breaking some sorta moral laws or committing a crime or sin.… These types of things are personal priorities and should be kept so on individual basis.

Bottom line is that if you have something so micro that gives you some satisfaction or benefits, fine. Keep it. Don’t lose it. But don’t generalize it and try to impose on others without any justification. Keep the good stuff, and drop the “bad and unnecessary” crap. And that’s what is actually happens in general. It’s like you can’t go against the storm in this ocean of languages and cultures, powerful and smart will devour the weak and dumb. That’s just the way it’s been and going to be. I like to look ahead and up...Not toward back or down. Be vigilant and let the nature take its course….

I am an Urdu and English speaker and can fluently read and write Arabic and understand it partly (Thanks to the Arab co-workers). My wife is Persian and I would like my two year old son to learn Arabic and Persian along with English and French.

I take that whenever our Imam tells us to not forget our traditions and faith. He means to keep the good and necessary things in our faith and traditions that help us and others and cannot be replaced, for example Jamat Khana attendance and other activities like Majalis and religious school, generosity and forgiveness, unity in families, volunteerism and the sense of a law abiding community in peace and prosperity and all the other good stuff…

The case of Arabic is along with English, French and other notable international languages.

Once again it was proven to you that there are more hindu/urdu speakers than arabic speakers. Do not forsake where you came from. In regards to the quran - the imam has said we will be provided with interpretations that conform to our way. and the Imams in the past have said. the ginans are the quran in your language.

Faith or Islam isn't Language or region bound....Islam is a universal faith. just because one doesn't speak arabic doesn't mean one is less of a muslim. there a few million arabs that speak arabic, but don't even practise an iota of islam.

Shams

[Biryani]

And who accepted this delusion that you have to just stick with what’s of majority only and not explore the minority but more important stuff….eh? Quality is what’s more important in this context than quantity. or else, everybody will be learning Cantonese/Mandarin…or Hindi.

"Don’t forsake where you came from".

Who did? And what is that have to do with learning Arabic as another language?

And whether if Arabs are good Muslims or not, that’s just way out off line here…LOL

Look, you don’t have to learn Arabic and nobody is forcing you either, but you cannot justify or persuade someone to not learn it if somebody is showing some interests in it for whatever reason. We should not be assuming others capacities and priorities either.

ShamsB, Let me make a judgment here for the sake of constructive criticism and forgive me if I’m wrong. You’re from India or with Indian background and living either in India or U.S. with typical Khoja Ismaili psych...Right?

[ShamsB]

And who accepted this delusion that you have to just stick with what’s of majority only and not explore the minority but more important stuff….eh? Quality is what’s more important in this context than quantity. or else, everybody will be learning Cantonese/Mandarin…or Hindi.

"Don’t forsake where you came from".

Who did? And what is that have to do with learning Arabic as another language?

And whether if Arabs are good Muslims or not, that’s just way out off line here…LOL

Look, you don’t have to learn Arabic and nobody is forcing you either, but you cannot justify or persuade someone to not learn it if somebody is showing some interests in it for whatever reason. We should not be assuming others capacities and priorities either.

ShamsB, Let me make a judgment here for the sake of constructive criticism and forgive me if I’m wrong. You’re from India or with Indian background and living either in India or U.S. with typical Khoja Ismaili psych...Right?

Well your statement makes it seem that if we don't learn arabic we're missing out the key messages of islam. or that Islam is tied to Arabic.
My point is Islam isn't. Faith or the practice of the faith isn't dependent on a language - you can speak a language but if you don't understand what the text says or don't act on it..it's worthless.

I would love for my kids to learn arabic - however that is after they learnt my native language - which would be punjabi in this case - since your assumption is partly correct - i am an even smaller minority than you make me out to be - i am a Shamsi ismaili - and after punjabi - i'd insist they learn gujrati and then arabic..because my literature is in the indic languages and this falls into my culture and my heritage. To me the ginans and the granths hold a lot more value as they are the words of the Pirs to the jamats.

For the quranic guidance - i will look for hazar imam to provide it.

My point was no where near what you're making it out to be..it was that we don't bother learning about our own culture...how are we going to learn about other cultures that are foreign to our own?

Shams

[Biryani]

Anyways, everybody is coming from their own specific family, cultural and social backgrounds and with the freedom of having different choices and priorities.

Well…sometimes some parents tend to impose their own cultural things on their children who are growing in a different society than they did…and it’s kind of natural to an extent…but, I guess, it would be more wise if they come out of their own zones of comfort and understandings of this ever changing to a smaller and integrated world…and let the new generation pick up the good quality things and not the bad and unnecessary of this multicultural, and multifaceted world…or they will probably be left behind.

I can understand you concern about the languages of Ginan and other scriptures and they are important for us too and if somebody can manage to handle that side along with little more important things then that is even greater. It’s just the matter of priority and the choices you make. Children are in their own culture and that is whatever they have right now (maybe partly yours and partly others’) and will have in the future. If it was not like that, then we all should be looking back toward Adam and Eve.

[agakhani]

Men…why do you guys have to spread the crap of all these kacchi pacchi, lassi, punjabi, gunjabi…pujarati, gujarati, sindi, pindi, and whatnot on something so high and grandeur, so unique and uniting and so beneficial. Why are we living with this unnecessary ghost of previous cultural crap on our shoulders that did not give us anything but just the yearning to escape from there in the first place? Cultures, languages and people evolve for the benefits and well being for themselves and sometimes thorns get along like ebonics and bubonics...but we have to just avoid them.

I personally don’t believe in the idea of sticking with the cultural baggage with ancestral languages just because we fell like we should stick with them to show the respect and feel obligated to do so or else we are breaking some sorta moral laws or committing a crime or sin.… These types of things are personal priorities and should be kept so on individual basis.

Bottom line is that if you have something so micro that gives you some satisfaction or benefits, fine. Keep it. Don’t lose it. But don’t generalize it and try to impose on others without any justification. Keep the good stuff, and drop the “bad and unnecessary” crap. And that’s what is actually happens in general. It’s like you can’t go against the storm in this ocean of languages and cultures, powerful and smart will devour the weak and dumb. That’s just the way it’s been and going to be. I like to look ahead and up...Not toward back or down. Be vigilant and let the nature take its course….

I am an Urdu and English speaker and can fluently read and write Arabic and understand it partly (Thanks to the Arab co-workers). My wife is Persian and I would like my two year old son to learn Arabic and Persian along with English and French.

I take that whenever our Imam tells us to not forget our traditions and faith. He means to keep the good and necessary things in our faith and traditions that help us and others and cannot be replaced, for example Jamat Khana attendance and other activities like Majalis and religious school, generosity and forgiveness, unity in families, volunteerism and the sense of a law abiding community in peace and prosperity and all the other good stuff…

The case of Arabic is along with English, French and other notable international languages.

Brother Biryani,
My guess is you hate India, Indian languages and India's great great tradition, but I do not blame you and others. ( I guess you are from Pakistan if not please excuse me) lot of peoples always critize India for almost every thing for nothing.
As I mentioned earlier that there is nothing wrong in learning Arabic and Inshaallah I will learn one of day but critizing other languages and Indian tradition is not right way which you are doing in this forum specially in this post.
I am not against Arabic or Persian or any other languages but as per my understanding everyone should have proud for their own languages.
One more thing, learning Arabic, Persian or french does not make you or other people greater than other Ismailis.

[Biryani]

Brother Agakhani...

There are lot of presumptions and preoccupations about lot of things in our people. Look, I don’t hate India…my parents and other relatives and friends are from India and I do visit India at least once every other year or so… there is no reason for me to hate India. I don’t have any nationalism in me and I don’t consider myself attached with one country or the other, this whole world is mine and yours too. I was just talking about the attitude of most people from India or Indian background. Their total indifference and lack of affinity or appreciation with greater Muslim and other cultures west of Pakistan except just of USA or other western countries. Knowingly or sub-consciously, they simply reject or ignore everything that is mainly pertaining to non Khoja Ismaili or non Ismailia Muslims. There are some reasons behind that attitude which I don’t have to necessarily mention here since that’s not the topic here but the topic is about knowing or learning about Arabic language. So if anyone tries to make the case otherwise or undermine the importance of Arabic by mentioning other smaller and regional languages and dialects and other irrelevant points is just ridiculous and unethical specially in the light of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah’s speech mentioned above and Hazar Imam’s Farmans about learning pacifically the Arabic Language (unfortunately, I don’t have any written copy of that). Everyone has their own language and culture that they want to keep and nothing is wrong with that. But pushing them in unparallel ways against others’ is not right…

Of course being a good Ismaili Muslim is not necessarily about how much languages you know. It is the character and following the teachings of the faith. knowing Arabic or any other foreign language is not about the competition of who is better a Muslim over who, rather its about being a more educated and enlightened individual, specially nowadays.

[TheMaw]

As an observation, my heritage languages are English, German, Scots Gaelic and Eastern Cherokee. I cannot speak Siraiki, Punjabi, Gujrati, Hindi or any other Indic language; however, I am studying Arabic and Farsi, because the language of the Qur'an and our Du'a is Arabic and that of the great Ismaili writers was Arabic and Farsi. It was the Aqa Khan I who left the Persianate world, and I don't need to convert to "Khojaism" to be an Ismaili. The Ginans are unfamiliar to me; not unpleasant or unwanted, but I appreciate them as an outsider only. As a Nasirid Nizari, my loyalties lie with the non-Indian groups. Even the Swat Valley Ismailis are Nasirid, not Khojas.

This is why I say that heritage languages are important, but not key to the faith. The faith is available to each population through the Imam's guidance to that community and its own traditions, but the Qur'an and Du'a are in Arabic and unite us all in the vision of the Prophet and his Imams.

I don't hate on your languages and cultures, but they don't *define* Nizari Ismailism.

[ShamsB]

As an observation, my heritage languages are English, German, Scots Gaelic and Eastern Cherokee. I cannot speak Siraiki, Punjabi, Gujrati, Hindi or any other Indic language; however, I am studying Arabic and Farsi, because the language of the Qur'an and our Du'a is Arabic and that of the great Ismaili writers was Arabic and Farsi. It was the Aqa Khan I who left the Persianate world, and I don't need to convert to "Khojaism" to be an Ismaili. The Ginans are unfamiliar to me; not unpleasant or unwanted, but I appreciate them as an outsider only. As a Nasirid Nizari, my loyalties lie with the non-Indian groups. Even the Swat Valley Ismailis are Nasirid, not Khojas.

This is why I say that heritage languages are important, but not key to the faith. The faith is available to each population through the Imam's guidance to that community and its own traditions, but the Qur'an and Du'a are in Arabic and unite us all in the vision of the Prophet and his Imams.

I don't hate on your languages and cultures, but they don't *define* Nizari Ismailism.

Are you implying that the works done by the Pirs were not "great"?
In doing so - you undermine and turn your nose up at the Satpanthi tradition.

Shams

[TheMaw]

Are you implying that the works done by the Pirs were not "great"? In doing so - you undermine and turn your nose up at the Satpanthi tradition.

If you had read my reply, you would have noted I specifically did not; in fact, I hold them in great esteem. Besides, my da'i was Ali Asani. He lead me to Islam, and he's not only a Khoja, but a noted scholar on the Ginans. (And a wonderful human being.)

However, all Nizari Ismailism is not Khoja Nizari Ismailism; I don't speak any Indic languages and must read them in commentary and translation. Most of my fellow Ismaili contacts are also Nasirid. While I aspire to learn and love the granths and works, it will require a LOT of work to learn the languages of the Khoja tradition and it is Naasir-i Khusraw (Persian), Nasiir ad-Din at-Tusi (Arabic, Persian) and the writings of the Fatimid philosophers that are of interest to me.

Arabic is the key to understand the Qur'an. Not to encourage learning Arabic would be a mistake. The Qur'an in translation is a much different document than its translation, and it is the words of the Prophet and the touchstone of our faith. Our Du'a mostly comprises selections of the Qur'an, in fact!

And if you want to understand the reasonings of the Imamate, the philosophy of why we believe in an Imamate and the foundations of Islam, Arabic is the language to know. Don't you aspire to read the words of the Imamayn Ja'far as-Sadiq and Muhammad al-Baaqir, who elucidated for the first time the philosophical and religious roles of the Imam for the clarity of the Muslim? Their treatises are priceless and brilliant and are the definition of the Imamate for all Imami Shi'a, including 12ers, Alawi, Musta'li Ismaili (Bohra), Alevi and Nizari alike.

[ShamsB]

Are you implying that the works done by the Pirs were not "great"? In doing so - you undermine and turn your nose up at the Satpanthi tradition.

If you had read my reply, you would have noted I specifically did not; in fact, I hold them in great esteem. Besides, my da'i was Ali Asani. He lead me to Islam, and he's not only a Khoja, but a noted scholar on the Ginans. (And a wonderful human being.)

However, all Nizari Ismailism is not Khoja Nizari Ismailism; I don't speak any Indic languages and must read them in commentary and translation. Most of my fellow Ismaili contacts are also Nasirid. While I aspire to learn and love the granths and works, it will require a LOT of work to learn the languages of the Khoja tradition and it is Naasir-i Khusraw (Persian), Nasiir ad-Din at-Tusi (Arabic, Persian) and the writings of the Fatimid philosophers that are of interest to me.

Arabic is the key to understand the Qur'an. Not to encourage learning Arabic would be a mistake. The Qur'an in translation is a much different document than its translation, and it is the words of the Prophet and the touchstone of our faith. Our Du'a mostly comprises selections of the Qur'an, in fact!

And if you want to understand the reasonings of the Imamate, the philosophy of why we believe in an Imamate and the foundations of Islam, Arabic is the language to know. Don't you aspire to read the words of the Imamayn Ja'far as-Sadiq and Muhammad al-Baaqir, who elucidated for the first time the philosophical and religious roles of the Imam for the clarity of the Muslim? Their treatises are priceless and brilliant and are the definition of the Imamate for all Imami Shi'a, including 12ers, Alawi, Musta'li Ismaili (Bohra), Alevi and Nizari alike.

I find the same information in the ginans.

Shams

[TheMaw]

I find the same information in the ginans.

You don't read the Qur'an?

[agakhani]

As an observation, my heritage languages are English, German, Scots Gaelic and Eastern Cherokee. I cannot speak Siraiki, Punjabi, Gujrati, Hindi or any other Indic language; however, I am studying Arabic and Farsi, because the language of the Qur'an and our Du'a is Arabic and that of the great Ismaili writers was Arabic and Farsi. It was the Aqa Khan I who left the Persianate world, and I don't need to convert to "Khojaism" to be an Ismaili. The Ginans are unfamiliar to me; not unpleasant or unwanted, but I appreciate them as an outsider only. As a Nasirid Nizari, my loyalties lie with the non-Indian groups. Even the Swat Valley Ismailis are Nasirid, not Khojas.

This is why I say that heritage languages are important, but not key to the faith. The faith is available to each population through the Imam's guidance to that community and its own traditions, but the Qur'an and Du'a are in Arabic and unite us all in the vision of the Prophet and his Imams.

I don't hate on your languages and cultures, but they don't *define* Nizari Ismailism.

Sister TheMaw,
If, I not making mistake then you are living in United states please correct me if I am wrong, but as per my understanding you are trying to impose that Arabic language is the only language for Islam and Ismaili. Do not forget that our old Dua ( approximately 50 years ago) was in Sindhi/Katchi language and it was written by Pir Sadrding and that Dua was recited in all Indian continental JK for more than 600 hundred years untill the time of 48th Imam Sultan Mohammed shah, and now? soon we may be able to see that our new Dua will be in English, Persian or some other langugage who knows! ( please note that I used word 'may be') so, Dua's language (currently Arabic) does not make that language is greater or superior than other languages.
About Ginan:-
Ginans were written exactly the way Quran was written, let me put this in just one sentence.
'GINANS ARE THE ASSENCE OF QURAN"
Not knowing Gujarati or other languges in which most Ginans are available now a days does not mean that languages are not important and only Arabic is important because Quran and current Dua are in Arabic.
About convertion:-
You do not need to convert in Khojaisam, I am not Khoja but I am 'Momna" from Sidhpur district but I am true Ismaili there are too many other sects as well they are not Khoja but they all are Ismailis for example Gupti, Shamshi,Satpanthi e.t.c. so nobody need to convert in Khojaisam to be call as an Ismaili, nobody force to be convert in Khojaisam.
About valuable Books:-
Who say that there are not any valuable books available in Gujarati and other Indo-Pak languages? there are many in Gujarati, Khojki and other languages these books lights on various topics and fields you name it (on Ismaili religion, on our traditions, on behaviour, on future, one earth birth and death, on four cycles and on Ruhaniayat and so on ( Khojki has plentiful treasure still need to be publish) and our 48th Imam used to refered to read these books, you can find many Farmans of our 48th Imam about this, These valuable books are 'NOORANMUBIN" ANANT AKAHDO' E.T.C. unfortunately these books are not available now a days.