on pre-marital sex, drinking

Sumi25 · Post by **Sumi25** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:29 pm

yam

first pre-martial sex:

I've seen threads on this in this forum and people just outright say it's a sin. I've never heard any farmans about it. Let's talk about this with reason as our faith is a one of reason. How can you reasonably say it is a sin to have sex before marriage. Let's say that two people are truly in love, I honestly don't see any harm in them having sex if they aren't married. Sex can be love making or just strictly pleasure. If two people aren't in love and have sex while not married, I still don't see anything wrong with that. What is wrong with pleasure.

So can anyone give me a reasonable argument along with a faithful argument as to why they think pre-marital sex is wrong.

on drinking:

i'm not exactly clear as to what the quran says but i think it's outlawed in the quran. has our current imam or the previous ever talked about drinking alcohol. i've never heard alcohol mentioned in farmans. i have only heard smoking mentioned.

i don't mean to offend anyone by these questions. just wanting to see reasonable debate. don't tell me these things are sins without giving hard evidence

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Sumi25 wrote:yam

So can anyone give me a reasonable argument along with a faithful argument as to why they think pre-marital sex is wrong.

on drinking:

i'm not exactly clear as to what the quran says but i think it's outlawed in the quran. has our current imam or the previous ever talked about drinking alcohol. i've never heard alcohol mentioned in farmans. i have only heard smoking mentioned.

i don't mean to offend anyone by these questions. just wanting to see reasonable debate. don't tell me these things are sins without giving hard evidence

There has been extensive discussion on pre-marital sex at:

Current Issues --> Solutions to Sexual Problems.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 82&start=0

In fact the very third article discusses the harm of sexual promiscuity...

On drinking there has been discussion which includes relevant Farmans at:

Current Issues --> On drinking

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ous+pearls

ForeverIsmaili · Post by **ForeverIsmaili** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:30 pm

Ya Ali Madad

For premarital sex, I would say it depended on what 'marriage' means. For some, it is Nikkah, a marriage contract. I would say that marriage for me is more a loving relationship between two people. To me, Nikkah is more of a social thing, i.e. for a stable social unit. I'll actually try looking at what the Aga Khan says about it, and find the words used in the Quraan and get the classical arabic translations for them.

ForeverIsmaili · Post by **ForeverIsmaili** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:38 pm

Ya Ali Madad

For premarital sex, I would say it depended on what 'marriage' means. For some, it is Nikkah, a marriage contract. I would say that marriage for me is more a loving relationship between two people. To me, Nikkah is more of a social thing, i.e. for a stable social unit. I'll actually try looking at what the Aga Khan says about it, and find the words used in the Quraan and get the classical arabic translations for them.

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:39 am

I think, marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is just a social contract between a man and a woman. And sex is biological and a may be social habit. So how is marriage and sex related religiously in Islam?

With drinking, originally, the purpose of the idea was not to get under the influence of any substance that alters your mind and intellect to think straight, it does not matter if it is by alcoholic beverage or any other modern narcotics and drugs. But since in the early days of Islam, generally only alcoholic drinks were available to consume to get high, so that is what mentioned.

I personally feel that it is ok if someone had, may be a glass or two of champagne or whatever and is not under the influence of it…no sin is committed. Since, it is the actual ideal which matters most.

However, one has to consider the potential of getting into habit of drinking alcoholic beverages more often and the destructive consequences of that, as that’s what they usually are intended to do and it can become an addiction.

So that is why Muslims generally say that drinking alcohol is totally forbidden according to their religion…rest is upon your consciousness of social and personal responsibility and health.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:59 pm

I think, marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is just a social contract between a man and a woman. And sex is biological and a may be social habit. So how is marriage and sex related religiously in Islam?

dint i told you, instead of wasting your time in bars and clubs, spend some time in reading holy quran

Allah says, "... Then marry such women as seem good to you two, three or four. But if you fear that you will not do justice between your wives, then marry only one... "(4:3)

Sex has been openly recommended in the Qur'an, "When they [i.e., the wives] have cleansed themselves [after menstruation], you go into them as Allah has commanded." (2:222)

The Qur'an says, "And among His signs is that He has created for you spouses from among yourselves so that you may live in tranquility with them; and He has created love and mercy between you. Verily, in that are signs for those who reflect."(30:21 )

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir quotes the Prophet as follows: "Allah says that, 'Whenever I intend to gather the good of this world and the hereafter for a Muslim, I give him a heart which is humble [to Me], a tongue which praises [Me], a body which can bear [worldly] affliction and a believing wife who is a cause of his pleasure whenever he looks towards her and who protects herself and his property when he is absent." (Wasa'il, Vol. 14, p. 23)

With drinking, originally, the purpose of the idea was not to get under the influence of any substance that alters your mind and intellect to think straight, it does not matter if it is by alcoholic beverage or any other modern narcotics and drugs. But since in the early days of Islam, generally only alcoholic drinks were available to consume to get high, so that is what mentioned.

anything that gets you high is prohibited [excluding medicine]

I personally feel that it is ok if someone had, may be a glass or two of champagne or whatever and is not under the influence of it…no sin is committed. Since, it is the actual ideal which matters most.

quran never mentioned that you can drink one or two glasses of champagne or its ok to drink as long as you dont high or dizzy, the reason for prohibiting it is because once a person start drinking he gets habituated by it and will consuming it every single day

Alcohol is a leading factor in 68 percent of manslaughters, 62 percent of assaults, 54 percent of murders and attempted murders, 48 percent of robberies and 44 percent of burglaries. Two-thirds of child abuse cases are alcohol-related as are 72 percent of rape cases. Booze is a factor in all drinking driving arrests and leads to all the injuries and deaths associated with them. Alcohol is the leading cause of death for 16 year olds.

"O ye who believe!
Intoxicants and Gambling,
(Dedication of) stones,
And (divination by) arrows,
Are an Abomination –
Of Satan’s handiwork;
Eschew such (abomination),
That ye may prosper."
[Al-Qur’an 5:90]

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

Many may argue in favour of liquor by calling themselves ‘social drinkers’. They claim that they only have one or two pegs and they have self-control and so never get intoxicated. Investigations reveal that every alcoholic started as a social drinker. Not a single alcoholic or drunkard initially starts drinking with the intention of becoming an alcoholic or a drunkard. No social drinker can say that I have been having alcohol for several years and that I have so much self-control that I have never been intoxicated even a single time.

In Sunan Ibn-I-Majah Volume 3, Book of Intoxicants, Chapter 30 Hadith No. 3371.

"Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils."

In Sunan Ibn-I-Majah Volume 3, Book of Intoxicants, Chapter 30 Hadith No. 3392

"Anything which intoxicates in a large quantity, is prohibited even in a small quantity."

However, one has to consider the potential of getting into habit of drinking alcoholic beverages more often and the destructive consequences of that, as that’s what they usually are intended to do and it can become an addiction.

wow at one stage you encourage innocent brothers and sisters to drink one or two peg and on other side you warn them, hats off !!!

So that is why Muslims generally say that drinking alcohol is totally forbidden according to their religion…rest is upon your consciousness of social and personal responsibility and health.

correction !
its islam that tells you that anything that gets you high and addicted is prohibited

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:45 am

My understanding is that just because marriage is mentioned in Quran Sharif, it is not necessarily sacred as a spiritual matter of faith. I think, it is referenced in Quran Sharif to guide people about just as any other deal between people like in business, friendship and other type of human relationships.

Well, since in Islam world and faith is intrinsically integrated, we can argue that everything in this world is sacred and guided by the faith. That is true. But I don’t know if Quran Sharif prohibited sex before marriage. In other words, if sex is allowed only with your spouse that you have taken, of course, in a marriage and common law partners with the love of the hearts and minds are sinful or such.

I have not studied Quran Sharif and its interpretation as much in details but whatever I have read, I’ve found it little vague and generalized. I mean, you can have multiple interpretations with big differences in the meaning and it can get really complex from language to language after translation from Arabic. Some scholars put their own interpretation in brackets next to the actual words and phrases in Quran. imagine the margin or errors there and I guess that’s why there are probably 70 + sects in Islam.

I’m a social drinker for last several years. when I was 14, I started drinking beers and mild drinks with friends, (of course with fake IDs and stuff) just to cool off and relax in long summer days after work or school. But I don’t remember that I have ever gotten drunk or got addicted to alcohol…we considered that would be embarrassing and really low to be out of your own control. Though, I’ve never smoked cigarettes or had any other health hazard habit. Nowadays, because of such a busy lifestyle, I hardly ever have time to ‘cool off or relax’…may be just at weddings and other celebrations.

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:21 am

Biryani, to be fair, the Qur'an mentions sakar "intoxicating beverage" (16:67) (the same root used to indicate "folly" in 15:72), rahiiq "wine" (the sweet wine of Paradise) and khamr "wine".

Muslims are ordered not to partake of khamr, which can specifically refer to the product of GRAPES, which is parallel to the prohibitions among other Arab tribes against grapes as recorded from the Roman times in Nabataea.

Interesting to note is that the word coffee (qahwah) means "intoxicant" and for a very long time, it was considered haraam because the Qur'an was understood to prohibit intoxicants. You can read all about it in HATTOX Ralph S 1985/1988 "Coffee & Coffeehouses: The Origins of a Social Beverage in the Medieval Near East" (ISBN 0295962313: library db linky).

Hallax' book also discusses at length the meaning of what is lawful and what is prohibited in Islam: the argument that held out in the end was what Hallax refers to as "sophistry": the Hanafi Sunni interpretation that what is banned is that last drink that makes one drunk: "the last cup" (al-ka'su l-'akhiiru).

I personally do not drink for medical reasons, but I have to say I'm not sure whether I'd refuse a single beer. The Prophet drank nabiidh, which was a weakly-fermented alcoholic beverage, after Hajj.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:50 pm

I personally do not drink for medical reasons, but I have to say I'm not sure whether I'd refuse a single beer. The Prophet drank nabiidh, which was a weakly-fermented alcoholic beverage, after Hajj.

correction !!

prophet[saw] and all his companions used to drink weakly fermented alcoholic beverage made of DATES before the aayats on alcohol was naazil

the day allah[swt] ordered rasool[saw] to ban alcohol , not just him but none of his companions ever touched alcohol [and that includes the 4th caliph and our holy imam hazrat.ali[as] ]

the maw i respect your views on alcohol but please when you say something about rasool[saw] please make sure you get proper information on it.

recently the University of Cambridge conferred upon Mawlana Hazar Imam an Honorary Doctorate of Divinity. If you go to the official AKDN site you gonna see some pictures of our beloved imam will bill gates and his wife etc etc

there is one picture where almost everybody[even the richest man in the world] is drinking champagne but .....there is only one man holding a glass of juice and that is AGAKHAN

.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:00 pm

I’m a social drinker for last several years. when I was 14, I started drinking beers and mild drinks with friends, (of course with fake IDs and stuff) just to cool off and relax in long summer days after work or school. But I don’t remember that I have ever gotten drunk nor I ever wanted to…we considered that would be embarrassing and low to be out of your own control. Though, I’ve never smoked cigarettes or had any other health hazard habit. Nowadays, because of such a busy lifestyle, I hardly ever have time to ‘cool off or relax’…may be just at weddings and other celebrations.

There were others however, who drank liquor during the intervening periods of salâh until the following incident took place: Uthmaan Ibn Maalik invited a few Sahâbâhs for a meal. After the meal, as was customary liquor was served. Thereafter, they became involved in another Arab custom, reciting poetry praising oneself, family and clan and simultaneously teasing and belittling others who didn’t belong to that group.

During this gathering, Hazrat Saad Ibn Abi Waqqas recited a few lines of poetry in which he criticized and belittled the Ansars of Madinah. Hearing this, an Ansari youth became enraged and threw a bone at him, which inflicted a severe wound on the head of Saad Ibn Waqqas .
He then complained against the youngster to Rasulullah , after which he made dua’a to Allah:
“O Allah! Grant us a clear cut for regarding alcohol.”

In response to this the 3rd and 4th verses concerning the complete prohibition of alcohol, were revealed as part of Surah Ma’idah:

"O you who believe! Intoxicants, gambling, idolatry and arrows (for seeking help on decision) one an abomination of order that you may be successful.
Shaytan seeks only to cast amongst you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah and from his worship, will you then not refrain? ”
(Surah Ma’idah 90)

Allah in his wisdom, firstly disclosed the evils in alcohol, then prohibited it at Salâh times and finally declared it absolutely HARAAM.

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:30 pm

In Toronto, the Golden Jubilee Darbar day 1, Hazar Imam mentioned that the Imam is never loaded!

This again is open to interpretation. I have spoken to several people to get their understanding of this. The two most common interpretations are as follows:

1. Loaded = Rich. The Imam showers all the barakah to his spiritual children. He gives all his blessings to his beloved children.

2. Loaded = Drunk/Alcohol. There were some who said they had a lingering question for some time...Does the Imam drink? To them, this was the Imam saying he doesn't drink. If the Imam says he doesn't drink, that tells us something about alcohol consumption.

Again, I'm just putting forth the different interpretations. Please don't jump on me!

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:40 pm

recently the University of Cambridge conferred upon Mawlana Hazar Imam an Honorary Doctorate of Divinity. If you go to the official AKDN site you gonna see some pictures of our beloved imam will bill gates and his wife etc etc

there is one picture where almost everybody[even the richest man in the world] is drinking champagne but .....there is only one man holding a glass of juice and that is AGAKHAN .

I tried to go to the akdn website, but was unable to find this specific picture. It would be interesting to see it. Can you please post the specific link here? Thanks!

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:45 pm

sure here it is...you just have to zoom in , then u'll see what iam talking about

http://www.akdn.org/assets/3/1012.jpg

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:49 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:sure here it is...you just have to zoom in , then u'll see what iam talking about

http://www.akdn.org/assets/3/1012.jpg

Thanks! I saw this pic earlier, but didn't note the details nor did I zoomed in at first.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:54 pm

your welcome saima,even though we have the biggest example [IMAM] alive, yet we have some educated ismailis who say as long as we dont get high its halal , if that was the case then i guess our imam would have had champagne instead of juice ...

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:02 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:your welcome saima,even though we have the biggest example [IMAM] alive, yet we have some educated ismailis who say as long as we dont get high its halal , if that was the case then i guess our imam would have had champagne instead of juice ...

Point well noted. Also, I there is another story, but I can't remember the exact details. If someone does, please let me know. Hazar Imam held a party in his Geneva residence some time ago. It was the month of September, but I can't remember the year...This was after Hazar Imam promoted Yoyoma and the Silk Road. In this party, all the rich and well-known personalities were invited, and Princess Zahra was present too (I don't know if all the Noorani family was there or not). In this party, the entertainment music was from the Silk Road and there was no alcohol to consume. They had a variety of drinks for the guests, but all were non-alcoholic. Again, this is very vague description since I can't remember any details of the story...

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:33 am

TheMaw, I am not sure if I understood your point to be fair about Quran Sharif mentions intoxicating beverages.

I do realize that ‘drinking’ is the topic here but I wonder about why some people are so much devoured with this issue of drinking and all this itty bitty details of the substances like grapes and other fermentable grains and produce…I think out of 10 major problems that this world in general and Muslims pacifically are facing today, this will probably be the last one or may not even be in the list. And here we are zooming in the pictures of some celebrities or notables to figure out what they are drinking and whatnot…is this your Islam and Ismailism all about? Don’t we have anything better to do or think? I don’t mean to offend anybody but this sounds very immature or irrational to me…probably some Talibans are more enlightened than us comparing what we have with what they have….I think that all monotheistic and dharmic religions has more or less common teachings and notions regarding the use of intoxicative substances and their prohibition but Muslims seem to be shackled down with this matter and singled out themselves exponentially and irrationally. Look at Jewish people, they pretty much have same guidelines as Muslims, but they seem to observe it in much more sophistications and with regards to other people’s personal choices and social rights and without making a big deal out of it.

Saima, that day I was there in that hall in Toronto and my understanding is that when His car was coming down the parking lot of that center, somewhere on a wall there was a sign of “Loading Zone” (which I think should be pretty embarrassing to the management for failing to cover that signage up)…so He was just in a very delightful mood and mentioned that up in his address to the Jamat …and Jamat laughed on that. I don’t think it’s anything more dynamic than that to interpret. I might be wrong on it though.

I would find it inappropriate and rude to make judgment in behalf of my party guests if they should drink or eat certain food or beverages or not according to my personal and religious beliefs. Rather it should be arranged according to the nature of the party and guests’ preferences and other protocols. It won’t be and should not be surprising to me if alcoholic beverages are served in any party arranged by the Aga khan or His family members.

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:55 pm

One last thought on it, and I’m outta here…

Few years ago, I had a friend in New York who happens to be having some minor drinking habit. It was not a real problem to anybody as he never seemed to be out of control or caused any incidents. He was very soft spoken and generous and easy to get along with. I use to call him Half Ghalib because he used to be staying drowned in philosophy and poetry all the time and loved mangoes a lot, once he had imported a whole big container of Sindhri Mangoes at the New York port and distributed all that in his relatives and friends.

Anyways, one day in a wedding party, some big hot shot self righteous business man came to him and shunned him over his drinking and not actually be very productive and so forth…so he replied that I drink liquor and dwell in the love of art of words but you drink people’s blood…you have people working for you under the minimum wage and you earn the interest of 25% from them…you got tax evasion charges, black market deals and God knows what else you do with your swindling mind. All the people there just got quite. There was a total silence for few moments in that hall except music in the background….the business man’s face turned red but could not say a word.

With this story, I don’t mean to encourage anybody to start drinking or whatever but just to get the idea of more important things in life.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:18 pm

Few years ago, I had a friend in New York who happens to be having some minor drinking habit. It was not a real problem to anybody as he never seemed to be out of control or caused any incidents. He was very soft spoken and generous and easy to get along with. I use to call him Half Ghalib because he used to be staying drowned in philosophy and poetry all the time and loved mangoes a lot, once he had imported a whole big container of Sindhri Mangoes at the New York port and distributed all that in his relatives and friends.

Anyways, one day in a wedding party, some big hot shot self righteous business man came to him and shunned him over his drinking and not actually be very productive and so forth…so he replied that I drink liquor and dwell in the love of art of words but you drink people’s blood…you have people working for you under the minimum wage and you earn the interest of 25% from them…you got tax evasion charges, black market deals and God knows what else you do with your swindling mind. All the people there just got quite. There was a total silence for few moments in that hall except music in the background….the business man’s face turned red but could not say a word.

With this story, I don’t mean to encourage anybody to start drinking or whatever but just to get the idea of more important things in life.

the topic under discussion is whether it is legal is ismailism or not !
and the answer is very simple .... its HARAM !!!

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:14 pm

I take all religious teaching as allegorical, and that religious laws need be observed only to maintain order, while he who understands the truth may disregard all such constraints.

And I am the Truth.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:55 pm

I take all religious teaching as allegorical, and that religious laws need be observed only to maintain order, while he who understands the truth may disregard all such constraints.

And I am the Truth.

you take it in an allegorical way or as the actual truth , fact is a fact ....it is HARAM

psst psst drinking at the age of 14, having premarital sex who knows how many times, must have cheated Nth times on your wife, wanna taste different type of biryani and who know what .....but yet YOU'RE THE TRUTH

hats off !!!

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:41 pm

To be honest with you, I actually was 15 back then...I just recounted the numbers. And you know, it is the legal drinking age in all of Scandinavian countries and Japan, and almost legal in France and Italy and I’ve never cheated on my wife.

Please keep the idea of eating different Biryani separate from here...

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:58 pm

In the talika-farman mubarak, Hazar Imam says..."Therefore, I have no intention whatsoever, of allowing compromises to come into our value systems...about limitless freedom in social relations..."

So what are those "social relations"? I would like to get different opinions on this from you all.

For me, "social relations" are gay/lesbian relationships, a non-marital sexual relationship, drugs, drinking, smoking, and even petty things like gossiping come under "social relations".

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:15 pm

Saima, I think gays and lesbians are just like straights …it’s their sexuality not social relations, unless if someone is straight but wants to mingle with non-straight folks then it might be considered “social relation” or something… and…uh…with cigarettes, drugs and stuff, yes you technically can have a physical relationship with them and it can be harmful, so that’s a NO and gossiping is waste of time…so that is also a NO.

Saima · Post by **Saima** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:52 pm

Biryani wrote:Saima, I think gays and lesbians are just like straights …it’s their sexuality not social relations, unless if someone is straight but wants to mingle with non-straight folks then it might be considered “social relation” or something… and…uh…with cigarettes, drugs and stuff, yes you technically can have a physical relationship with them and it can be harmful, so that’s a NO and gossiping is waste of time…so that is also a NO.

I agree with you. I should've clarified. I mean if they are naturally gay or lesbians, that's a different matter. But if they 'choose' to be one, that comes under social relations.

Biryani · Post by **Biryani** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:53 pm

"In paradise it is true that I shall drink at dawn the pure wine mentioned in the Qu'ran, but where in paradise are the long walks with intoxicated friends in the night, or the drunken crowds shouting merrily? Where shall I find there the intoxication of Monsoon clouds? Where there is no autumn, how can spring exist? If the beautiful houris are always there, where will be the sadness of separation and the joy of union? Where shall we find there a girl who flees away when we would kiss her?".

Mirza Ghalib.

on pre-marital sex, drinking

on pre-marital sex, drinking

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