Council

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:50 pm

Do you think that it is right to go and see hazar imam if the council tells you not to....i want to know your opinions

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:40 am

No i dont think so that with out permission you cans see Mowla papa because when ever Hazir imam will want us to be there or in front of his eyes then he'll tell to the council .<BR><BR>                                                                     thanx

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:03 pm

aminL wrote:Do you think that it is right to go and see hazar imam if the council tells you not to....i want to know your opinions

I am not sure what you are referring to. I am assuming it is to do with visits like the one in Toronto recently. As you can see from the photograph in the Main Page of this site, MHI is saluting his murids and seems to be very happy. Sometimes the love between a murid and Murshid transcends institutional constraints!!

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:50 pm

I have read a Farman of Imam SMS in gavare rehmat where he has said that if you disobey the council it is the same as cutting off my tongue.

Now you decide what you should do.

SHAMS

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:24 pm

I have heard a Farman by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah that says that if Council does not obey the Imam, Jamat should not follow the Council [Zanzibar farman]

Nagib

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:38 pm

Nagib YAM to you and everyone close to you,

Could you please give me some more details about this farman u mention, like the date or the book in which you found it

YAM

Shams

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:05 pm

I think it was the 1905 Janbar Farman when he promulgated the first Constitution... I may not be precise with the date but I have read the Farman.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:19 pm

Why would HazarImam mention in his farman about those who do not fulfil their duties and who do not treat others fairly as having BLACK HEARTS?

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:12 am

Personally speaking I did go to see Hazar Imam at UFT and at Queens Park. For me this was a great experience beucase I had recived the deedar of Hazar Imam last in 1992 or 1991 when he came to Dar Es Saalam. For me, if and only if Hazar Imam sends a Taliqa saying not to go and visit/see him (like he did in Housten) then I would not go.

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:28 am

Patience is the best vertue. But patience is a sin if it stops you from
seing your Imam. I also went to UofT and I was happy about this.

I understand that the gathering of a large crowd in a public place can
become a problem but the only problen I saw at UofT was the show-off
done by our Council people telling the murids of the Imam to get out of
the University, pushing them and insulting them and taking their photos
and videos and thinking they can intimidate the Jamat.

Our own institutions have started bringing to the Canadian Government
and population the idea that it is right to discriminate us based on the
color of our skin and the fact that we have Muslim names.

For instance I wrote an email to the Governor general's office to be able
to attend the speech in Ottawa. The email was forwarded to the Ismaili
Council and the local president of the Council replied to me. Does the
Governor General's conference organiser send email written by chinese
people to our council? No, certainely not. Who taught the Canadian
institution to treat us differently based on ethnicity, colour of skin or
muslim names? Who is trying to corrupt the neutrality and pluralism in
Canadian Society and for what purpose?

Last week thursday I visited the Legislative building in Queen's Park, as
my car was passing by, our own "official" people sent the RCMP
government security officer running after my car to note down my plate
number. I did stop and take my car in reverse to talk to the officer. This
is a free country and our people are telling government security that we
are terrorist and security risk. All this the day before Hazar Imam comes
to talk of ethics and pluralism and how well Canada has integrated those
values.

Maybe our people should listen more carefully to what Hazar Imam is
saying, else they have a choice in this free country to change their faith if
the faith and ethics promoted by Hazar Imam is not acceptable to them...

Nagib Tajdin

tasbiha · Post by **tasbiha** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:28 pm

I applaud you for refusing to be intimidated.

I do hope someone in MHI's office in France is reading this forum. Over the past 2.5 years I have read many strange things about the Canadian Council.

Between the Salman Damji - spelling - incident, the refusal of the Council to teach basic religious tenets to the kids, and now this, I wonder what kind of political nonsense is going on.

One solution I can think of, that will surely get their attention in France, is to tithe to the AK Partnership Walk instead of tithing to the JK. They count every dollar that comes from each JK annually. If they see Canadian dollars sent to the Partnership Walk, while the JK tithes are down, they will see that something is WRONG. Especially if you pay by check.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:15 am

YAM to all

Nagib, I applaud you also for refusing to be intimidated. I was also there at U of T and council told me "MHI has said to (leaders) that he is extremely unhappy that me and my friend did sijida infront of his car while the car past by". 5 mins later, MHI is so happy to see his murids and smiling and waving to us but council had to ruin peoples moods there. WHY??? As I see it, I did the right and by all means I WAS NOT INTIMIDATED. My heart told me to do it as I love my imam very much, council isn't going to change what my heart says. Council was also saying dont do salwat out loud and blah blah. These are just my views.

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:36 am

In my opion, if the council was acting in such a mannor, then it was unapproperiate. First off, the Imam would not get disappointed with you if you did that because He knows that it is an act of love even if the council does not know that. Secondly the relationship between a murid and his/her Imam is strictlly between them two. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO INTERFERE. Instead of yelling at the people to get out of there and to go away and instead of tellin you that your Imam is unhappy with you, they should have been so happy to see that you have so much love for your Imam. They did not notice that there were only about 5 youths from the age of 13-16. We kids could have been anywhere at that time but we werent we went to go and see our Imam. So what you did was absolutly right there is no doubt about that. Mubaraki to all who were there and who recived the deedar of the Imam.

sheri · Post by **sheri** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:31 am

I think you all are just putting the blame on the council. I didn’t attend the UofT convocation and couldn’t make it there but I think that it’s not the council which would stop you from doing all this because they hate you ismaili folks.........but doing all this portrays an unacceptable image. I am sure you all who are against the council are born and raised in Canada. Now our jamat is not only based in Canada which is a free country. There are ismailis, way more ismailis who are living in Muslim extremist countries and they have to face the hardships for our stupid acts. These things when the media captures such as saying the salwat and then doing sajadah just makes matters worse. The imam does not physically need to see you doing sajadah in front of him... or he does not need to hear you recite salwat. If you are concerned about making HI happy, then I don’t think you will achieve that by doing it physically. Do it in your hearts, and keep your other ismaili brothers and sisters in your minds when you do such foolish acts which would bring intense hardship upon them because of your acts. I hope I clear some of the misunderstanding which you guys have. Always try to put yourself in the shoes of others and stop being so selfish and stop thinking just about yourselves. You are just a minority of ismailis who have well- easy fearless lives in Canada. Think about the ones who get killed, have their Jamat Kaney’s and other centers bombed because of all these stupid things we do to show ourselves off. That is why the council tries to minimize such images and I think the council is doing the right thing. Cheers from me to the council.
And when people can attack HI and beat him up it is this free country bullshit which you guys put up will cost us someday. America blamed canada for the 911 attacks cuz its a free world and terrorist come easily. No one will say "hey i am a terrorist" Its better to be safe than sorry and you should not be offened because it doesnt say on you head that you are a ismaili, it could be any other muslim who is against us who wants to plan against us. There are many possiblities. The council has to take all this into consideration, where as what all we do is make their work much harder. Think about other things, this was just a glimpse of the possiblities.

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:03 am

YAM "Sheri",

What you are saying basically is there are always 2 sides to a medal, which everyone agrees.

However, when the council people sent the RCMP officer behind my car at the parliament, I was just passing by and that was the day BEFORE Hazar Imam came there.

So I think these people should clear their act. By sendind RCMP behind an Ismaili car passing by, they are saying that Ismailis are potential terrorist or security risk.

They did not have to say this phisically, they could have taken my plate number in their heart only

By the way my car is always in the JK parking and they can take my plate number as many time as they want.

In fact I asked the police officer that day if he only needed my plate number or also my autograph

Nagib

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:44 am

Sheri....this is all I have to say to you. You are speaking the language of the intelect and we are speaking the language of the heart. You belive what we did was wrong where as I do not. Weather you think I am right or not is not relevant. This relationship is between me and my Imam and no one has the right to interfer in it. First off I wasnt born in Canada. So I dont know how your getting off by syaing I hate the council becuase thats not the issue. I respect council casue Hazar Imam has appointed them as our leaders. Secondly, no one at UFT was reciting Salwat out loud and so what if they did? Other muslims recite salwat as well. If you are on to belive that the Imam would become embarassed about this then in my opinion you do not know who the Imam is. Do you know what happened in Ottawa? The RCMP were telling Ismaili people not to leave. They would say dont leave you Aga Khan will be coming any minute now dont go. They also told the council you can not tell the people to go away from here because this is public property. The only way I as an indivdual am not going to see Hazar Imam is if he sends a Taliqah saying not to go. I dont care if the council dont like it I dont care if you dont like I dont care who ever doesnt like it...Im going to see my Imam and there is no body in this world who can stop me from doing that.

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:29 pm

telling the Jamat not to recite Salwat is a little bit like telling Hazar Imam not to say "Bismillah hir rahman hir rahim" before his speech, right?

Would anyone object that a non-ismaili Arabe says something in Arabic in the same place and time? Is the problem with the use of Arabic in western surrounding?

Is the problem with the use of salwat? When Imam came in 1992 to Canada, we were told not to recite salwat aloud when hazar imam enter the didar hall. Is this related to the same logique or are the people who preach so today, the same as those who preached that in 1992...

What if we say the salwat in Gujrati, does that become offensif also?

Or if we say a legitimate French sentence that sound like a Salwat such as "Voila une humeure salee a la Mohammed, dit, voila Mohammed" ?

Is this allowed?

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:53 pm

I dont understand why you should not be aloud to say salwat inside the deedar hall. That makes no scence what so ever. The problem is that we are so concerned with that people will think about us saying it that we forget what we are there todo. When you see the Imam you should be saying salwat constantly. What does Hazar Imam say in his Firman's when you have free time call the name of Allah or Muhammad or Ali or take out a Salwat. I am not saying that you say it out loud in public like at UFT or what ever. But inside the deedar there should not be any problem like that. Like Nagib said, if Hazar Imam had a problem with the salwat's and all then why did he start of his last two speeches with Bismillah hir rahman i -Rahim? People should start to realize the fact that the Imam is the Mazar of Allah. Mazar means a place where something is manifested in. So the Imam is the Mazar of Allah what this means is that the Noor of Allah is Manifest in the Imam. So when you are saying salwat you are expressing your love for the Imam. The Imam understands your opions and your love. If you belive one thing that is okay but you cant not tell another person that your views are wrong because YOU have no right to do that. This is only the prerogerative of Allah to judge. No one else has this right.

sheri · Post by **sheri** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:41 pm

Its totally right to do what your heart say. And all the deedars i have been to everyone is saying salwat. I have never heard that before. Secondly, Canada is not a muslim country. No one cares what you do in canada. when such messages reach the muslim country which are easily reached through the media these days, non-ismailis protest against the ismailis. Its very easy for all you to say yes we do it for our mowla. Its good that you love mowla soo much. And i never told you not to. I was just saying that when that message reaches non-ismailis......they think we are kafirs. If it was so easy to make them understand that its our belief and we should do whatever we need to do, then we would not be scared to practice our religion. Ismailis in muslim countries are assualted everyday because of the fact that we have the concept of HI being the mazar of Allah. I wish in those muslim countries it would have been the same society which is here in canada, but sorry to say it is not. You should go and talk to people who come from such countries get their views, ask them what hardships they face to practice ismailism and the amount of critisim they get from non-ismaili. I think then you will get my point of view. I am sorry if what i am saying is offending you all, I am just saying that there is a reason for such matters. Well the choice is yours i just gave my point of view i would advice you all to first go find out about the situation our ismailis around the world get into because all this. In such countires we are close to getting considered as non-muslims. There is a huge debate if we ismailis should be called muslims or should be kicked out of Islam because we believe in the Iman. Every ismaili can't move to Canada. Still keep your view high because you all are right with yours and i think i am right in my view. Sorry again if i offended anyone, my message didnt mean to convey that you are going against the Imam.

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:52 pm

I belive that I got a bit to offensive so I am sorry for that. I understand what you are saying. My dad was telling me to that the things we do here are okay for us but they are not okay for Imsmaili's living in countires like Saudi Arabia and so on becase they will be killed for the actions which we do here.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:00 am

really interesting sheri and aminL
I think maybe saying salwat in PUBLIC may not be the right thing to do
or prostrating before Hazar Imam If your HEART says do it den do it, just like what I did. And why dosen't council tell Hazar Imam not to say
Bismillah e Rahman e Rahim to him? Hazar Imam knows when to say things and not to. But by saying such a powerful verse how do other non
ismailies feel? It is ABSOLUTELY Hazar Imam's unfettered decision as to
what he wants to say where and how. If council feels embarassed then
they should not really be the leaders in my opinion. But by ruining jamats
moods when Hazar Imam is PHYSICALLY PRESENT, I think that is really
upsetting. However, the practices here in Canada, are different then
in Pakistan or Saudia Aarabia or wherever it may be but council
needs to smarten up and not feel embarassed at all because there will
be a day when the NON ISMAILIES realize who our beloved, Hazar Imam is.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:40 pm

so what I did was it right in that context
or no?

please give some feeback

Thanks

-------------

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:10 pm

I dont think you did wrong.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:55 pm

but it wasn't a religious context
MHI has said whatever is esoteric should be left esoteric
so by prostrating in a non religous context wouldn't it be wrong?

Thanks

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:29 pm

I have a video of MHI's visit to Tanzania in 1988. There was an Ismaili who was about to prostrate when MHI passed by him. MHI stopped him and physically raised him!

So you can decide whether you were right or wrong. On the other hand, you say that the Imam was pleased. To clear yourself ask for his forgiveness through Dua Karravi. He is most merciful!

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:04 pm

You have misunderstood me thallestlunatic I am not saying against you. I said I think you did right.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:02 pm

Zaher

Zaher

Zaher

Zaher

Zaher

Thats all I seem to read in this thread.

Imam SMS Farmans indicate that Zaher badhu Duniya ne lagtu cche, Tae kharab cche. Maybe Alinizar can quote it right.

It means all things Zaher have to do with this word and that is Bad. What is good is if Ruh reaches assal makan. He has also said Batun is good and as indicated above Zaher is bad.

Now here is some thing that will rock everyones boat.

On the basis of the above Farman I would like to state that

Zaheri Deedar of Imam is Bad

Imam SMS has said in Farman that if you keep looking at me for a month it will not benefit you.
And I think he also said that you will only benefit if you obey my farmans.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:37 pm

shamsu wrote:Now here is some thing that will rock everyones boat.

On the basis of the above Farman I would like to state that

Zaheri Deedar of Imam is Bad

Imam SMS has said in Farman that if you keep looking at me for a month it will not benefit you.
And I think he also said that you will only benefit if you obey my farmans.

These ideas find resonance in the following verse of Saloko Moto.

satgur kahere: imaan raakhsho to chhuttsho
ane gur kahe chhe pukaar
saachee dasho(n)d-j aaljo
ane deelksha(durthee) laagjo paay re............93

The True Guide says: If you maintain faith then you will be free and the Guide cries out to you. Submit the genuine tithe and bow to the feet of the Imaam from a distance(don't go too close to Him).

This is perhaps the reason that the Imam did not give physical deedar to many Jamats for decades and centuries. Physical presence of the Imam can sometimes confuse. Your mind may switch and think of him as an ordinary man or a businessman or as a race horse owner etc.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:55 pm

it all depends on how one perceives the Imam
if one perceives him as the Mazhar e Allah then he will appear
as the Mazhar e Allah or if one perceives him as ordinary living human
being then that is what will be perceived. In my opinion, it does confuse
people physically but I feel batuni deedar is much better as you can
see the mursheed anytime, anywhere.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:09 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:it all depends on how one perceives the Imam
if one perceives him as the Mazhar e Allah then he will appear
as the Mazhar e Allah or if one perceives him as ordinary living human
being then that is what will be perceived. In my opinion, it does confuse
people physically but I feel batuni deedar is much better as you can
see the mursheed anytime, anywhere.

Well said! If MHI himself decides to come and give Zaheri Deedar, then it is a different matter altogether. It can indeed be a glorious occassion. Confusion can only arise when encountering him outside the Jamati context.

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nagib, that is a sad story...

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