Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers)

Arshad_Z · Post by **Arshad_Z** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:28 pm

I was just wondering, when the Ithas bring up a hadith which they claim the Prophet said that "There will be 12 Imams or khalifa after me", does anyone think it refers to the Natiq-Imam that we believe comes after every 7 Imams? If so, it could mean that we will have 84 Imams? Please do not attack me as I was just wondering if it could be a possibility and any response would be valued.
Yaa Ali Madad,
Arshad

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:01 pm

We have the knowledge and history of at least 49 Imams. To me all Imams have appeared equal. Nothing unusual/extraordinary about the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, 35th, 42nd and 49th Imams.

And of course our Imams have told us that the rope of Imamat is everlasting. The famous hadith thaqlain states that the Imams and the Quran will be together till Qiyama.

Arshad_Z · Post by **Arshad_Z** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:14 am

oh alright. I was just wondering because in the "Imams pre-Adam" thread under the doctrines topic there comes a "Natiq-Imam" after every seven Imams who makes his role open in a way, such as how Hazar Imam has done so much not only for the Ismailis, but for the whole umma.

zubair_mahamood · Post by **zubair_mahamood** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:20 am

Arshad_Z wrote:I was just wondering, when the Ithas bring up a hadith which they claim the Prophet said that "There will be 12 Imams or khalifa after me", does anyone think it refers to the Natiq-Imam that we believe comes after every 7 Imams? If so, it could mean that we will have 84 Imams? Please do not attack me as I was just wondering if it could be a possibility and any response would be valued.
Yaa Ali Madad,
Arshad

Everyone comes up with a book and a explanation..... I have Prophet hadith according to Sunni that they will be Imam after Prophet but it didn’t mentions number, its written by famous Islamic scholar of time and has referring from hadith shareef of bukari.

Virgo2 · Post by **Virgo2** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:11 pm

In the Bible it says:

Gen.17
[20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen.25
[16] These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

Ithnas claim that this is reference to their 12 Imams. But they only quote Gen. 17 and not Gen. 25 in which it states "and these are their names". Names do not match the Ithna Imams.
Virgo2

nowroozalisabiti · Post by **nowroozalisabiti** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:49 am

Thus a year has 12 months, an Imam has 12 Hujjat(Proof,"representative"). Thus the Holy Quran states in the Sura of Yousuf. One night Yousuf dreamt that 11 # of Stars, the Sun and the Moon came down and bowed me. Then his father said, "Don't tell your dream to the others; otherwise you will be at risk." Yaqub had 12 sons, but among them Yousuf had the merit of inspiration and prophet hood. The previous Prophet/Imam knows which one of his son has merit and capability of Prophet Hood /Imamat. He knows by some manifestations which occur in his successor life. Yaqub knew who his successor was after him. When Yousuf was in prizon in Egypt and the king of Egypt had dreamt that there came 7 fat cows and then appeared 7 thin cows and swallowed the ones fat. He awoke. He slept again and dreamt another surprising dream. He dreamt that there 7 clusters of fresh and green wheat and after that there appeared 7 clusres of dry wheat and wrapped up the 7 fresh ones. Who knew the interpretation of that dream? Only Yousuf who had the merit of ispiration from Allah and he knew the esoteric interpretation of the dream, because he was granted the knowledge of interpreting of the dream by Allah. Every Imam knows who is better among his sons to merit the Imamat. Like Yaqub knew Yousuf is his successor. Did Imam Jafar al-Sadiq know nothing about the temper of Ismail to elect him as Imam?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:03 pm

nowroozalisabiti wrote:Did Imam Jafar al-Sadiq know nothing about the temper of Ismail to elect him as Imam?

One must to careful not to apply human criteria of what is good or bad to Imams. The following is the explanation given by Nasiruddin Tusi in his book 'Paradise of Submission'.

[$376] Anyone who reasons to himself that the Imam - may salutations
ensue upon mention of him - should act according to the prescriptions
of the founder of the religious law in order to be Imam, and in order
to be impeccable (ma'sum), that he should adhere to the canons of
ascetic piety and holy chastity which ordinary people consider to be
piety and chastity, [such a person] can be numbered among those who
are described, when discussions about human intelligence are broached,
as [possessing] 'such denial, such devilry, which resembles reason,
but is not reason. Such a person does not have even an iota of
understanding regarding the condition of the Imamate.

[$377] When such people witness the behaviour and actions of the Imam -
may salutations ensue upon mention of him - they become delirious,
thinking these to be terrible transgressions, uttering things 'whereby
the heavens are almost torn asunder'(19: 90). For the Imam - may
salutations ensue upon mention of him - exercise his judgement in a
manner that is beyond the comprehension of mankind. Therefore, only
that person of whom it can be said that, 'The believer has been
created from [the light of]God, and when God orders him something, he
will recognise it, will be able to disclose this mystery by the light
of his primordial conscience (nur-i-fitrat). Such a person knows,
beyond any shadow of doubt or suspicion, that it is the truth which
follows the Imam, not the Imam who has to follow the truth. This is
because the Imam is the lord of truth(Khudavind-i haqq). and his will
and desire have no need to be justified or motivated by any secondary
cause, because from his perspective, the cause, the caused and the
causation are all the same.

[$378] Similarly, such a person will understand that [the Imam] is
truthful in essence (muhiqq-i bi-dhat), such that all those who become
adepts in truth have been vouchsafed their truthfulness through his
influence and grace. All that the worldly folk deem to be truth, when
he declares it false, they also apprehend it to be false; and all that
the world regards as false, when he declares it to be truth, they
consider it to be true. Thus, it is the Imam who is the index of truth
(nishan-i haqq) in every situation and time, not his [transient] words
and deeds. They consider truth without him as infidelity (kufr), and
to set it [i.e. truth] besides him as polytheism (shirk). By this
means, such a person can attain to the supreme height [of
understanding] which is the abode of the most advanced adepts
(sabiqin). However, as for the one of whom it is said that 'the
infidel is created from the sins committed by the believer,' he will
fall into everlasting nothingness and eternal humiliation due to his
own obstinacy, denial and opposition to the Imam. We seek refuge from
this in God.(Paradise of Submission, pg. no. 129)

nowroozalisabiti · Post by **nowroozalisabiti** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:23 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nowroozalisabiti wrote:
Did Imam Jafar al-Sadiq know nothing about the temper of Ismail to elect him as Imam? Indeed, he did as Yaqoub knew about Yousuf. But the twelvers elect Musa al-Kazim as Imam. Musa was jealous of Ismail as Yousuf Brothers were jealous of him. So, when Ismail was hidden Musa misused from this opportunity and announced himself as Imam. Jafar al-Sadiq elected Ismail Imam by order of God. Don't be misunderstand.

baqi · Post by **baqi** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:36 pm

Ya Ali Madad

In order to avoid confusion on this issue, I refer all those interested to the following extract/chapter, 'Proofs for the Imamah of Imam Ismai'l ibn Ja'far' that establishes the appointment of Imam Ismail (a) after Imam Ja'far Sadiq (a), and avoids slanderous remarks against, amongst other sacred figures, Imam Musa Al-Kazim (a):

http://www.nuralimam.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=51

st0necol · Post by **st0necol** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:37 pm

Hmm...but Imams child are considered Noor-Bearers and are far superior souls than others then how Musa Al-Kazim claimed that he was declared as Imam? Jealous?

I heard that many people after the death of Sultan Mohammad Shah assumed Prince Aly Salman Khan as his successor but it was his grand-son. And in many areas they got the pics of Prince Aly S. Khan in their homes and started worshiping him but then Prince Aly S. Khan himself went there and told the people that it's not me. It's my son Karim has succeeded my father. How true is this story is?

I don't think there should be any jealousy among Imams kids or family. But in history I read Imam Jaffar Sadiq kept Imam Ismail away from his other kids and public and gave him education under his own supervision. Well Imams secrets Imam knows. What he wanted to do.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:11 am

Arshad_Z wrote:I was just wondering, when the Ithas bring up a hadith which they claim the Prophet said that "There will be 12 Imams or khalifa after me", does anyone think it refers to the Natiq-Imam that we believe comes after every 7 Imams? If so, it could mean that we will have 84 Imams? Please do not attack me as I was just wondering if it could be a possibility and any response would be valued.
Yaa Ali Madad,
Arshad

Ya Ali Madad

There is a Hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammad (pbuh):
"Two things I am leaving amongst you after me, the Quran and my posterity verily, if you follow them both you will never go astray. Both are tired with a long rope and cannot be separated till the Day OF JUDGMENT".

The Quran said:
O you, who believe, obey Allah and obey the Prophet (sallalllaho alaihi wa sallam) and (obey) the holders of (divine) authority from amongst you. (Surat un-Nisaa (4) Ayat No. 59).
" And We have vested everything in the manifest Imam" (Surat-ul-Yaasin (36), Ayat No.12).Sun is present. Moon is present. Sky is present. Imam is present and manifested.

Therefore, the world can not exit without IMAM-E-ZAMAN NOT EVEN FOR A MOMENT. THE DIVINE AUTHORITY IMAM IS ALWAYS PRESENT IN THIS EARTH. WITHOUT IMAM THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL DESTROY.
THE LIVING IMAM-E-ZAMAN IS NOOR MOWLANA HAZAR IMAM SHAH KARIM AL-HUSAYNI AGA KHAN. ALLAH AKBAR.

asifmomin1 · Post by **asifmomin1** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:15 pm

I can't imagine how difficult will they (twelvers) find to accept the truth when Mowla decides to declare his Imamat or divinity to the world. Perhaps they will justify him as their Imam in occultation (Mahedi, their 12th Imam) manifesting himself while Christians might look at him as Jesus coming back as their savior and Hindus as Kalki avtar. I am sure Mowla will make it look like a win win situation for all the world religions.

SaminaNurali · Post by **SaminaNurali** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:02 am

i hope what ever you have said <A name=""></A>asifmomin1 becomes true soon. it will make my life easier. PLease pray for me

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:36 pm

If you need someone to talk to, please feel free to e-mail me at [email protected].

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:24 pm

asifmomin1 wrote:I can't imagine how difficult will they (twelvers) find to accept the truth when Mowla decides to declare his Imamat or divinity to the world. Perhaps they will justify him as their Imam in occultation (Mahedi, their 12th Imam) manifesting himself while Christians might look at him as Jesus coming back as their savior and Hindus as Kalki avtar. I am sure Mowla will make it look like a win win situation for all the world religions.

I have heard from so many people, scholars and even it is writing in some old books of 9 century about Ash-naser-ya(twelvers), they were saying that when Muhammad ibn al-Hassan son of Abu Muhammad the 12 Imam of Ash-naser-ya disappeared as infant in his cradle in year 941, then after him so many scholars believed and wrote number of books that he will be returning after 1000 years as Mahdi with Christ and they both will reestablish the rightful governance of Islam and replete the earth with justice and peace! So, now it is 1400 years and where are they? Where are their Mehdi and Christ? And also why would the Imam hide from his followers and the world since they need a guidance or is he scared of anything? what made him to hide since they believe that he is the manifestation of God in the earth? I have a lot of question according to Ash-naser-ya faith, but I haven't find any answer to them yet. Now, they say that Mehdi and Christ will return in the before end of the world?. I further heard that the Ash-Naserya's government of Iran made a Nuclear bomb for preparation of returning of Mehdi?.

Here is some website on Iran Nuclear&Mehdi
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=49698
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... _n29302109
http://www.google.ca/search?q=iran+prep ... icial&sa=2

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:01 am

From_Alamut, with all due respect from your sister in the Ismailiyya tariqah of Islam, I don't believe it's noble for us to ask the Twelvers if their Imam is hiding because he is scared. We must sympathize with these Twelvers. In fact, as I write this post it is the morning of the tenth of Muharram (Ashura), and they are mourning for their lost Imam. The revolution in Iran, the militant Hezbullah, all this because their hearts ache for their Imam.

But I know what you're getting at too, as the Qur'an says, their own denial of the truth has caused them this pain. I've personally witnessed Twelvers dismiss Ismailism on the grounds that Hadhir Imam does not have a beard, or because hijab is not mandatory! These same people, these educated people, go on to claim that Islam is so much more than prayer and fasting, but yet in the end, their own beliefs stop at the zahir.

Nonetheless, we shouldn't speak lowly of them, as lowly as they speak of us and our Imam. This is not the way of us, because we know haqiqat. But, to get back on topic, for those interested, I'll summarize Twelver history.

The hadith of the Twelve Imams originates from Sunni books, however, early on we see a Zaidi Shi'a group using it, so the narration eventually did influence Shi'a Islam as well. The earliest mentions of the idea of the Occultation (the disappearance of the Imam) that I know of is from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, but I believe it reached more prominence after Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, simply because after his death we see it being used. For example, two major groups that believed in Occultation were the Qarmations (the Occultation of Imam Muhammad ibn Ismail ibn Jafar I believe), and those who thought Musa al-Kadhim went into the Occultation, and rejected the eighth Twelver Imam. Both these groups believed the Occultation would end when these individuals re-emerged.

The Twelver Imamate continues until Muhammad al-Mahdi, the son of their eleventh Imam, Hasan al-Askari. Whether al-Askari had a son or not is very disputable. If he did, there are two narrations about his mother. One states that his mother was a Nubian slave, the other states that his mother was a Byzantine princess who was captured into slavery but lead by God to eventually become al-Askari's wife. Though the latter account contradicts with history on some points, it seems to be the more accepted story amongst the Twelvers.

Twelvers believe that the reason for the Occultation will be revealed later, but also, they believe that Muhammad al-Mahdi is not coming because there is a lack of true Shi'a in this world. The Shi'a are not worthy of him, and this theme is reoccurring in Twelver Shi'a literature, as early back as the Twelver hadith collection of Imam Ali's sayings, Nahjul'Balagha (the Peak of Eloquence). The effects on such teachings as we can see have had a dire consequences on the followers of this sect.

After the death of the eleventh Imam, Hasan al-Askari, many groups were confused (remember, the hadith of the Twelve Imams was not common amongst the Shi'a, it was a Sunni hadith). Several groups formed, some of which believed Hasan al-Askari was the last Imam and the Imamate ended with his death, some of which believed he was the last Imam but yet would return, or the Imamate never went to him and went straight to his brother Jafar, and various other sects.

The eventual group which dominated was the belief that a twelfth Imam was the son of al-Askari, that his name was Muhammad al-Mahdi, and one day he would return and bring an age of justice. The Twelver Occultation is unique in that it is split between the Minor Occultation and the Major Occultation. In the Minor Occultation, al-Mahdi was represented by the Four Deputies who collected the khumms money and sent letters back and forth between the Hidden Imam and his followers. Currently we are in the Major Occultation, the time in which no formal contact can be made (however can appear and meet individuals). The Twelver Shi'a use a hadith saying the benefit of the Occultation is like a sun behind the clouds. While this analogy is good in that it is true (the world is still kept in existence by the sun's warmth), it is not good in that when the sun is behind clouds, one can still see; and looking at how many times the Twelver sect has split and completely changed itself, it seems unlikely that there is some divine guidance.

For example, there were also controversies about who was the true representative of the Imam during the Minor Occultation. The biggest split that occurred during this time was that of the Nusayris, as a man named Ibn Nusayr gave himself the title "Bab" (Arabic: Gate) and said he could communicate with the Twelfth Imam. The Nusayris are presently called Alawis and make up 10% of Syria's population. When the last of the Four Deputies passed away, he abolished khumms and stated that there would be no more deputies.

This signaled the start of the Major Occultation. When the Major Occultation started, the dominant Twelver group were called the Akhbari. They had books of Shi'a hadith that they relied on. At this time Twelver Shi'a existed in Lebanon and Iraq, and I think possibly Bahrain.

The Twelvers didn't see any prominence that I know of until the rise of Shah Ismail I. Born among and raised by Shi'a Sufis, he conquered the Sunni Iran, and brought Twelver Shi'a Islam with him. Through his poetic talents and rule he made Iran into a Twelver Shi'a nation. However, the form of Sufi Twelver Shi'a Islam he adhered to would die out in Iran, and only survives in few areas today, including Turkey (20% of the entire population) and Albania today. They are called the Alevi and the Bektashi.

Shah Ismail's successor (or the successor after that) called the Akhbari from Lebanon and Iraq into Iran, so Iranians adhered to a more strict and traditional form of Twelver Shi'a Islam. However, this was short lived with the rise of Usulism. Usulism believed in using logic in order to deduce rulings, and also believed that many books of narrations upon which the Akhbari leaned their faith were not historically accurate (hence, for some 700 years the Twelver Shi'a were incorrect). They believed that the average believer should do taqleed under an educated believer (now called a Grand Ayatollah), and that the khumms tax should be re-instituted and paid to the Grand Ayatollah which a believer adheres to.

Twelver Shi'a Islam in general, which unlike Zaidi and Ismaili Shi'a Islam rarely had political prestige, believed in some form of separation of religion and government. However within the last century many reformers including Grand Ayatollah Khomeini believed that with the reappearance near, a government based upon the principles of Islam is needed to welcome Muhammad al-Mahdi and aid him.

When Muhammad al-Mahdi finally does come back, he will start a violent insurrection against the world (including some of the corrupt Twelver scholars according to tradition). Twelvers differ to whether Christians and Jews will be spared of needing to convert to Islam or not, but the rest of the world will certainly be required to, or they will be killed. Twelvers believe the time is extremely near, and prophecies included great turmoil occurring in Iraq, which has further heightened eschatological expectations.

Looking at all this, we see a history that, through is sincere and beautiful in its own respects, is devoid of the very light which pervades our existence everyday, and that is the light of knowing the Imam of the Age, in all His glory. Sometimes, when I see or read about Hadhir Imam meeting with a Twelver scholar, I can't help but think, that the Imam that this scholar has prayed for seeing, has meditated upon, has worked for his entire life, is right in front of him. The very force that gives him peace after his namaaz prayers, or blesses his works, is the man right in front of him. Yet they cannot see that.

Bless Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad. We are all here today, guided, bathing in the light of Hadhir Imam because of His grace. Looking just outside our window, we see that a very different picture could have existed for us.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:28 am

Ithna Asharites

"The death of Imam Jafar Sadik in 148/765 marked the beginning of the decentralization of Shi'ite religious authority. The Ithna Asharites or the Twelvers, the Shi'ite sect supported Musa Kazim as their next Imam after Imam Jafar Sadik. Musa Kazim was born in 128/745 on the road between Mecca and Medina. His mother was a Berbar slave, called Hamida. Throughout the whole of his life, Musa was faced with hostility from the Abbasids. The cause of his arrest and murder is said to have been the result of the plotting of caliph Harun ar-Rashid's vizir, Yahya bin Khalid. Thus, Musa was arrested in 177/793 in Mecca, then he was sent to Baghdad, where he was imprisoned and killed by poisoning in 183/799.

Kashi writes in Ikhtiyar Marifat al-Rijal (Tehran, 1964, p 459) that, "At the time when Musa Kazim was imprisoned, an amount of thirty thousand dinars for khums had been deposited with his two agents in Kufa. One of these agents was Hayyan al-Sarraj. The two agents spent this money in buying houses and trading, and made considerable profit. When Musa Kazim died and the news reached them, they denied his death and spread the story that the Imam had not died, because he was the promised Mahdi and disappeared. This group became known as the Waqifiyya." A.A. Sachedina writes in The Just Ruler (New York, 1988, p. 54) that, "It emerges from this story that the idea of the occultation of al-Kazim may possibly have been invented by those agents who wanted to benefit from the material wealth that could have been claimed by the succeeding Imam."

The followers of Musa Kazim became known as the Musawiyya. He was followed by Ali ar-Rida, who was born in Medina in 148/765. Soon after the death of caliph Harun ar-Rashid, the Abbasid empire was split between his sons, Amin and Mamun. Amin was defeated in a civil war and Mamun's army under the Iranian General, Tahir, occupied Baghdad. Caliph Mamun summoned Ali ar-Rida from Medina, and appointed him his heir-apparent in 201/816. Ali ar-Rida died in 203/818 at Tus. He was succeeded by Muhammad at-Taqi, who was born in 195/810. He came to Baghdad shortly after his father's death. Caliph Mamun warmly received him and gave his daughter in marriage to Muhammad at-Taqi. Caliph Mamun died in 218/833, and was succeeded by his brother, Mu'tasim. Muhammad at-Taqi was summoned back to Baghdad in 220/835, where he died in the same year. He was followed by Ali al-Hadi, the tenth Imam of the Twelvers. He was born in 212/827 in Medina. During the reign of the Abbasid caliph Mutawakkil, both the Twelvers and Mutazilis came under an intense persecution. In 233/848, Ali al-Hadi was summoned to Samarra, where he lived for twenty years under the observation of the Abbasid spies. He died in Samarra in 254/868. The eleventh Imam of the Twelvers was Hasan al-Askari, who was born in 232/846 in Medina. His period lasted for six years and died in 260/874.

Perhaps no aspect of the history of the Twelvers is as confused as the stories relating to their twelfth Imam and this is not surprising as this is the point in their history where the events related become of a miraculous, extra-ordinary nature and the non-believer may be unwilling to go along with the facts as related by the Twelvers. The following story is the one presented in their later traditions:-

The mother of twelfth Imam was a Byzantine slave-girl, named Narjis Khatoon (or Saqil or Sawsan or Rayhana). The tenth Imam, Ali al-Hadi, bought her for his son, Hasan al-Askari. The twelfth Imam, who was named Mahdi, is supposed to have born in 255/868 in Samarra. Some later sources vary by as much as five years from this date. Ibn Babuya (d. 381/991) writes in Kamal ad-Din (1:222) that, "The 11th Imam's reported complaint that none of his forefathers had been as much doubted by the faithful as he was." Hasan al-Askari died in 260/874, but it however appears that none of the notables knew of the birth of al-Mahdi, and so they went to Jafar, the brother of Hasan al-Askari, assuming that he was now the Imam. Jafar was asked about the son of Hasan al-Askari, but he remained unshakable in his assertion that his brother had no progeny. For this reason, Jafar has been vilified in later sources as a liar (khadhhab). Muhammad Manzoor writes in Iranian Revolution (Karachi, 1988, p. 105) that, "Traditions relating to the birth, disappearance and the concealment of the twelfth Imam are given in several chapters of Usul al-Kafi, such as, from pages 202 to 207, and 333 to 342. A persual of them will convince that the whole "case" is fabricated and even that has not been done skillfully and well, and the version of Imam Hasan Askari's brother and other family members appears to be correct and worthy of belief." Nawbakhti writes in his Fiaraq (p. 79) that, "Hasan al-Askari died and no offspring (khalaf) or vestige (athar) was seen after him. As no apparent child for him was known, his inheritance was divided between his brother Jafar and mother." Thus, the idea of the Imam's occultation was invented by a necessity, because the line of the Alids vanished, it was necessary to maintain the spiritual force,

By: Dr. D.S. Merchant

Reference
http://www.articledashboard.com/Article ... tes/610203

SimurghMI · Post by **SimurghMI** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:41 am

Imams and the Quran will be together till Qiyama.

Didn't Hassan II declare the Qiyamat already ?

SimurghMI · Post by **SimurghMI** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:54 am

These same people, these educated people, go on to claim that Islam is so much more than prayer and fasting, but yet in the end, their own beliefs stop at the zahir.

Most of the Twelver Shi'ite scholars I've read (Allama Tabatabai , Mutahari, Khomeini, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, etc..) all recognized the importance of the inner gnostic element of the faith (Irfan, theosophy, etc...). I tend to think a lot of people miss this simply because they see them as so insisitant on following the exterior elements of the faith . It's not one or the other to them though but rather "both". Also.. wasn't Mulla Sadra one of the worlds great gnostics and he was a twelver for example ?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:14 pm

SimurghMI wrote:
Most of the Twelver Shi'ite scholars I've read (Allama Tabatabai , Mutahari, Khomeini, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, etc..) all recognized the importance of the inner gnostic element of the faith (Irfan, theosophy, etc...). I tend to think a lot of people miss this simply because they see them as so insisitant on following the exterior elements of the faith . It's not one or the other to them though but rather "both". Also.. wasn't Mulla Sadra one of the worlds great gnostics and he was a twelver for example ?

The question is whether the exterior elments can be changed according to times. Who defines the external elements in the 12ver tradition?

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:22 am

SimurghMI wrote:
These same people, these educated people, go on to claim that Islam is so much more than prayer and fasting, but yet in the end, their own beliefs stop at the zahir.
Most of the Twelver Shi'ite scholars I've read (Allama Tabatabai , Mutahari, Khomeini, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, etc..) all recognized the importance of the inner gnostic element of the faith (Irfan, theosophy, etc...). I tend to think a lot of people miss this simply because they see them as so insisitant on following the exterior elements of the faith . It's not one or the other to them though but rather "both". Also.. wasn't Mulla Sadra one of the worlds great gnostics and he was a twelver for example ?

Mulla Sadra's works actually stopped Ismaili beliefs by arguing against Ibn Sina's work, which is very close to the beliefs of Ismailism. He was not a great gnostic in my opinion, but he was a great scholar in his ability to mend different things together, creating a uniformed uncontradictory framework for the Twelver scholars to understand philosophy, gnosticism, and many other things in.

You have to understand there is a glaring issue with these scholars: Tabatabai, Khomeini, and Nasr. They do believe in gnostic-like beliefs, but they limit it. They say that the batin is strictly tied with the zahir, that every shariah ritual involved in salat is pivotal. This contrasts with what Imam SMS said, that the zahir is the zahir and the batin is the batin, and they are separate. Fortunately, some Twelver groups like the Alevi grasp this idea and abandon shariah once they reach a higher level of understanding (this is called in Alevism the Four Doors, consisting of shariah, tariqah, marifat, and finally haqiqat similar to Ismailism).

To contrast that, Tabatabai actually says that abandonment of shariah because of gnostic pursuits is erroneous, therefore destroying the foundation of gnosticism, in which we are justified by love of God alone, not ritual acts. Even Khomeini's book Adabus Salat stresses the batin only in the light of the ritual of salat.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:14 am

I think in esoteric traditions, there are the external practices specific to the tariqah itself and then there are practices which pertain to the broader Sharia which is general for the Muslim Umma, each denomination within it having it’s own version reflecting the doctrine under consideration. In the former case we have practices such as Dua which are compulsory upon all members of the tariqah and the latter is voluntary in accordance with the premise that there is no compulsion in religion.

Hence even in Ismailism, the zaher is important, but it is a question of which zaher we are talking about. Is it the Dua or the Namaz? Of course one may choose not to be an Ismaili in which case the obligation to recite Dua is nullified.

It is true that when a person progresses along the tariqah and attains the Haqiqat/Marifat, he is constantly in the presence of the Beloved and hence the need to engage in any kind of zaheri ritual is minimized, nevertheless it is still the requirement for the benefit of the community.

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:31 pm

I think there is a danger in tying zahir ritual with shariah; they don't necessarily go together. All esoteric groups have zahir rituals, even the ones which abandon shariah.

Calling oneself a gnostic and then giving oneself the authority to stone an adulterer spits in the face of Divine Love, in my opinion.

One thing I would like to note is that I simply don't believe spiritualism or Sufism is any better than the other ways of approaching God. Ismailism transcends spiritualism/Sufism, philosophy, legalism, but it has at various times manifested itself in these forms for the sake of the jamaat, which presently is why we have several cultural traditions within Ismailism some of which are spiritual like the Satpanthi, and others which stress philosophy like the Nasiriyya. In my opinion, we should not confuse this with the idea that Ismailism is spiritualism or Sufism, rather we should understand that Ismailism is a higher truth which has simply taken this form, and can take many other equally valid forms.

YaAliYaMowla · Post by **YaAliYaMowla** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:06 pm

My take:
The Imams, Pirs, and Hujjats have taught us the two most critical approaches to reaching God: Philosophy and Spiritualism. Both are necessary. The forms of these may vary but the essence is the same and is necessary to understand the Ismailism which is the highest truth.

Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah told us in His farmans:

"I shall provide philosophy for you; read it, understand it. You will find great courage from it."

"Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Mowlana Rumi had studied a lot of philosophy and also had read the Quran-e-Sharif with its meaning."

"What big is the difference between your religion and that of the others? Think about this. Your religion is spiritual and that of the others is physical. How great is the difference between the physical and the spiritual faith!"

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:07 pm

Twitter streams break Iran news dam

by Glenn Chapman Glenn Chapman – Tue Jun 16, 12:01 am ET

SAN FRANCISCO (AFP) – Protestors in Iran used Twitter for battle cries and to spread the word about clashes with police and hardline supporters of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Messages posted on the micro-blogging service, some with links to pictures, streamed from Iran despite reported efforts by authorities there to block news of protests over Ahmadinejad's claim of having been fairly re-elected.

Pictures of wounded or dead people that senders claim were Iranian protestors ricocheted about Twitter and wound up posted at online photo-sharing websites such as Flickr as well as on YouTube.

A protestor was reportedly shot dead during clashes in Tehran as massive crowds of people defied a ban to stage a rally against the disputed re-election of Ahmadinejad.

The trouble flared after Ahmadinejad's defeated rival Mir Hossein Mousavi appeared in public for the first time since an election that has sharply divided the nation and triggered protests and rioting.

"Iranelection" was the top Twitter trend of the day, and a message thread led by "Persiankiwi" appeared to be orchestrating hacker attacks on official Iran websites while firing off updates on developments in the streets.

"We are also moving location -- too long here -- is dangerous," Persiankiwi tweeted mid-day Monday.

A subsequent Persiankiwi tweet read: "Attacked in streets by mob on motorbikes with batons -- firing guns into air -- street fires all over town -- roads closed."

Twitter users were also slamming mainstream media outlets for not covering the Iranian election aftermath more intensely.

A "CNNfail" thread at US-based Twitter critiqued the cable news network's coverage throughout the weekend.

"This is all seriously power to the people, in more ways than one," a Twitter member using the screen name "kianarama" tweeted.

Twitter was being used as an international command center by people intent on keeping news from Iran flowing at online social-networking services.

Users shared lists of proxy computer servers that could be used to sidestep Internet traffic blocks in Iran.

Twitter has delayed plans to temporarily shut down the service late Monday for "critical" maintenance, saying its role in sharing news from Iran is too important to interrupt.

"Our network host had planned this upgrade for tonight," Twitter founder Biz Stone said Monday in a message to users.

"However, our network partners at NTT America recognize the role Twitter is currently playing as an important communication tool in Iran."

Taking Twitter offline for an hour for maintenance was postponed until Tuesday afternoon, according to Stone.

"In the end, as long as there is a way to communicate at all there is always a way to make messages move and get them out to the broader world," said Erik Hersman, who co-founded "crowd-sourcing" mobile telephone platform Ushadidi in Kenya last year.

"There is always a way to make messages move and get them out to the broader world. Of all the mediums, SMS is just the lowest barrier to entry and the easiest to propagate."

Twitter users can text messages of no more than 140 characters to unlimited numbers of mobile telephones. Tweets can also be read online at Twitter.com.

"Nonviolent resistance movements are typically driven by students, young people who are increasingly born digital natives," Ushadidi board member Patrick Meier wrote in a presentation posted online at iRevolution.

"Resistance movements are likely to make even more use of new communication technology and digital media in the future. At the same time, however, the likelihood and consequences of getting caught are high."

Meier explained ways that Internet-age technology-prone revolutionaries can reduce risks of exposure in a presentation titled "How To Communicate Securely in Repressive Environments."

"Organizational hierarchies are being broken down as youth adopt new technologies," Meier said.

"Political activists need to realize that their regimes are becoming smarter and more effective, not dumber and hardly clueless."

Reference

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090616/ts ... 0616040201

There are further video clips on youtube based on the strike of the elections just do a search and you wil have the links.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:05 pm

Don't take me wrong but it mke me little confused recently I read that our 46 the Imam Hasan Ali Shah had wrote two books

1, "KANZUL MASHAYAL"*

2, "MANHAJUR RISHAD"*

In above two books he had wrote that there are only twelve Imams?? actually it shocks me first I read this written by one of our (47th) imam? not only this but his own son, Aga Jangi Shah also wrote that there are only 12 imams in his own book;

" AGA JANGI SHAH NO RISALO"?? **

Any clarification will be highly appreciated in this matter.

* Available in Persian and in English.
** Available in Gujarati only.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:55 pm

Sorry to say but I called my Twelver freind and he told me the same story which I wrote above i.e. our 47th imam Hasan Ali Shah wrote in his two books that there are only twelve imams ?
It could be not true but I read that two books which confirms that imam Hasan Ali Shah had wrote that there are only (astagafirullah) twelve imams? and I personally follows them! ?i.
If you do not belive me then please read these books mentioned above!

To Admin,
I just brought thi topic to bring more discussion not to prove that imamat concepte is wrong, which I believe it will continue till the day of kayama.

Any comments from any one in this forum?

ismailignosis · Post by **ismailignosis** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:46 am

Imam Hasan Ali Shah has not written those books, to my knowledge. They are not mentioned in any article on him or his writings.

ismailignosis · Post by **ismailignosis** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:47 am

This article puts to rest any Twelver claims and proves that Ismail is the Imam after Ja'far al-Sadiq:

http://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who ... ibn-jafar/

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:47 am

ismailignosis wrote:This article puts to rest any Twelver claims and proves that Ismail is the Imam after Ja'far al-Sadiq:

http://ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who ... ibn-jafar/

Beautiful!

This is just to add.

Today that "Hand" must be among people, in fact that "Hand" must be present in each era, so men can give their bay'ha. Otherwise, it would be unjust of Allah. And today it is not people's fault that they were not born during the lifetime of the Prophet to take His hand for bay'ha. That "Hand" is the Hand of the Imam of the time.

www.ismaili.net

Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers)

Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers)

Re: Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers)

Re: Ithna Asharis (The Twelvers)

Hope