Is Quran compilation complete?

[kmaherali]

The issue raised in my mind was that Prophet Muhammad PBUH always conveyed Quran in the form of his Hadiths right? Then how the actual text of Quran was written? And Quran was never compiled during his time. So I am confused in it.

I do not think it is too important how the Message was transmitted, it could have been memorised by the Prophet's companions for example and then letter transcribed...What is important to realize is that our Imams have accepted it in its current form and we should not question that.

And who was the person who learned all the Quran so that during 2nd or 3rd caliph he helped Caliph Osman in compiling ?

And why Hazrat Ali when he was the 4th caliph didn't undo the changes Osman made in the Quran ? Any history behind it?

There could be many persons who could have memorised it. Even today you can find individuals who have memorised it. It is not difficult if you have the devotion.

If Hazarat Ali had changed the Quran, it would have created a major fissure in the Umma. Hazarat Ali did not have the spiritual authority in the Umma as the Prophet. He was only a Caliph and hence any changes done by Ali would not have been accepted. Why would the Umma accept Ali's Quran instead of that of Uthman. He was only a Caliph to the majority.

As a matter of unity Hazarat Ali accepted the Uthman version of the Quran just as he accepted the leadership of the first three Caliphs. The excerpt from a speech made by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah states:

"In the present Imamat the final reconciliation between the Shia and Sunni doctrines has been publicly proclaimed by myself on exactly the same lines as Hazrat Aly did at the death of the Prophet and during the first thirty years after that. The political and worldly Khalifat was accepted by Hazrat Aly in favour of the three first Khalifs voluntarily and with goodwill for the protection of the interests of the Muslims throughout the world.

We Ismailis now in the same spirit accept the Khalifat of the first Khalifs and such other Khalifs as during the last thirteen centuries helped the cause of Islam, politically, socially and from a worldly point of view. On the other hand the Spiritual Imamat remained with Hazrat Aly and remains with his direct descendants always alive till the day of Judgement."(Published in 'Agakhan III Selected Speeches and Writings of Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah', Edited by K.K. Aziz. Pg 1417)

[st0necol]

Yeah you're right.

He was the 4th caliph but still many didn't truly believe him.

Thanks bro

So kmeharali

You think that as soon as Quranic verses were revealed, Prophet recited it and those Sahabas learned it ? And then prophet explained the hidden meaning behind it? Because if it was only Exoteric, any arab would have understood. it was the hidden meaning which needed a divine intellect.

[st0necol]

im in my room now. and i found a laptop here. i can continue i open this site and read all hadiths in its page. i want to say a truth about me, i do not show consideration and respect to Hadiths. maybe this a wrong behavior i do not know but i am that. but i believe Hadiths wich in that page. because Hz. Ali (r.a.) is Shah-i Veli. thats possibility is very high. but still i think choosen of calipth is confused. all calipths are dear for me. and i do not want do some disrespectful things to them. Islam is a Peaceful religion but events which after Prophet (sav) death are very sadden and disturb me...

Brother

what ever happened was a historical period which cannot be reversed. Now it's our duty to create humanity and brotherhood among with our other muslim brothers and also non-muslims. Create peace with them because only then they'll know the real picture of Islam. Whats with war? All do it, but who gave the message of Forgiving your enemies? Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) forgived all Kafirs after Mecca Fatah.

Thats Islam. The beauty lies in it's uniqueness. And the fruits only those can taste, who do it

When we do charity or help others by other means it gives a pleasure and feeling inside which no other material luxuries can deliver. Helping others makes us closer to GOD

[saleemsadruddin1]

So this means that Farman can be treated as Quran?

[kmaherali]

So this means that Farman can be treated as Quran?

Yes, Farmans are the tafsir of the Quran for Ismailis....

[saleemsadruddin1]

Thanks.

"Tafsir" means authoritative explanation.

So Farman is explanation of Holy Quran, but not the extension nor the amendments?

This means that Farmans cannot over ride Quran??

[enzuru]

That is correct. Farmans are all derived from the Qur'an, they can never contradict the true meaning of the Qur'an. Both are narrated by God.

[kmaherali]

This means that Farmans cannot over ride Quran??

It means that Farmans are the correct interpretation applicable to our context. The reason we have the Imam is that he interpretes the Quran for us and in that sense his interpretation is the only correct interpretation of the Quran.

If there is an apparent confict between the Quran and the Farman due to the contextual aspects of the Quran, then the Farmans would be the correct interpretation.

The Quran states that: "Everything is manifest in the Imam." Hence whatever the Imam says in correct according to the Quran.

[saleemsadruddin1]

That is correct. Farmans are all derived from the Qur'an, they can never contradict the true meaning of the Qur'an.

It means that Farmans are the correct interpretation applicable to our context.

So Farman is not the extenssion of Quran, means last message of God was to Hazrat Muhammad PBUH and we belive he is last messager of God.

[kmaherali]

So Farman is not the extenssion of Quran, means last message of God was to Hazrat Muhammad PBUH and we belive he is last messager of God.

Quran is the final revelation of God. That does not mean that Divine guidance was frozen. Guidance has continued through the Imams who have interpreted the Quran according to the times. Hence Farmans are an extension of the Quran....

MSMS in his memoir states:

The Prophet died without appointing a Khalif or successor. The Shia school of thought maintains that although direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death, the need of Divine guidance continued and this could not be left merely to millions of mortal men, subject to the whims and gust of passion and material necessity, capable of being momentarily but tragically misled by greed, by oratory, or by the sudden desire for material advantage. These dangers were manifest in the period immediately following our Holy Prophet's death. Mohammed had been, as I have shown, both a temporal and a spiritual sovereign. The Khalif or successor of the Prophet was to succeed him in both these capacities; he was to be both Emir-al-Momenin or "Commander of the true believers" and Imam-al-Muslimin or "spiritual chief of the devout." Perhaps an analogy from the Latin, Western world will make this clearer: he would be Supreme Pontiff as well as Imperator or temporal ruler.


Ali, the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, the husband of his beloved and only surviving child, Fatimah, his first convert, his bold champion in many a war, who the Prophet in his lifetime said would be to him as Aaron was to Moses, his brother and right-hand man, in the veins of whose descendants the Prophet's own blood would flow, appeared destined to be that true successor; and such had been the general expectation of Islam. The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power.

[saleemsadruddin1]

YAM,

I meant to ask, that last communication of God was to Hazarat Muhammad PBUH.

Do you mean to say that there are more communications after profit to Imams?

[Admin]

As per the Ismaili Constitution, Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] was the last Prophet and there can not be here any contradiction on his matter.

The Quran is protected by God. The Mushaf which is the compilation has not been done or approved by the Prophet [PBUH] in the present written format, it did not exist when Allah proclaimed "Today i have perfected your religion".

the Imam of the Time has the proper interpretation of the Quran.

As he said, the Quran is there for all to read but the meaning is not there for all, it is however there for our Jamat because we have an Imam of the Time.

This debate has been going on since Centuries in the Muslim World and between Ismailis and others and I doubt these Centuries of debates will be resolved in this Forum today. So instead of trying to create controversies, lets first understand the subject.

Admin

[aknak]

yes indeed....! The debate has carried on for centuries and probably will carry on for another10 to 12 centuries,if not within the ummah then outside.The fact that mankind is never left alone on this earth without a guild is true...........and that truth can only be achived by an individual, by being sincere and if insearch....sincerly without the imbalance of the corruption of history............it takes more than mear talk. its dedication ,its taking time to sit and contemplate,which sadly is in short suppy.

[saleemsadruddin1]

Hi
The matter is not solved, we all agree that final communication of God was to Hazrat Muhammad PBUH and Imam is for Tafsir of Quran which means authoritative explanation. Then why is it so that according to the time 1 Ayat has one meaning and as time passes, same ayat has different meanings.


Haj,according to both Sunni and Shia school of thought is compulsory and many ayat has been revealed by Allah,

[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Kaba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and
prostrate."

[2:158] The knolls of Safa and Marwah are among the rites decreed by GOD. Anyone who observes Hajj or `Umrah commits no error by traversing the distance between them. If one volunteers more righteous works, then GOD is Appreciative, Omniscient.

[ 2:196] You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and `Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination.

Roza / Fasting

2:185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.


There are many references in Quran. I have read many articles on this forum and found that Fasting was discontinued during Hazrat Zakariya-Alai-Salam.


How? How is it possible to override Holy Quran.


People are kept silent for ages, and yet we discuss and discuss and satisfy our self for many years that since Hazar Imam said therefore it is correct. But did anyone asked Hazar Imam except a person who asked MSMS and fasting was made compulsory for him? (Why for him only)

According to you, Hazar Imam is for guidence. From where we would have guidance when we would have 1 way of communication.

No school or teacher can teach student, if student cannot raise a question. How many Waizen today answers your question? Can you argue with him based on your intellectual, in today's scenerio it would be considered a Sin if you ask question to Waizin or Jamat's Mukhi.

Please read Ayats I have quoted, do you still need explanations on it?

Further
See Surah Nisa V. 59 which is also read in second part of Dua.

"O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those charged with authority [/b]AMONG YOU.

If ye differ in anything among yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination.


Way back there was no significant difference between an Ismailia and a Shia, 5 times a day prayer, Roza and Haj. And today the scenerio is changed.

one Ayat and different interpretation according to time is not possible. If you dont' understand meaning of Quran than read and read and you will understand.

[Admin]

"saleemsadruddin1
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2009 08:14 am Post subject:
Hi
The matter is not solved "



All of the above subjects which you are questioning have already been answered/discussed in various forums. Please read the Forums before asking duplicates questions which are old topics on this web site.

You have been warned not to try to create useless controversies.

Admin

[kmaherali]

Hi
Then why is it so that according to the time 1 Ayat has one meaning and as time passes, same ayat has different meanings.

That is in keeping with the fact that interpretation of faith evolves according to time and context. That is why we need a living Imam to give authoritative interpretation. Yes one Ayat can have multiple interpretations depending upon time and context.

Haj,according to both Sunni and Shia school of thought is compulsory and many ayat has been revealed by Allah,.

There is no compulsion in religion. We do not force people to obey the Imam and likewise others should not force us to practice their interpretation. If you feel the need to perform Haj and to fast nobody is going to prevent you from doing them.

[nagib]

Yes there is no compulsion in religion but not many Muslims are prepared to follow the Prophet's [PBUH] and Allah's injunction about this.

And as the Prophet [PBU] has said that we have to be "ibnul Wakht", the children of our time, we will obey his command.

Those who still want to go on camel's back to the corner McDonald and eat their hamburger can also do so, we respect them anyway as it is to Allah to judge.

Nagib

[saleemsadruddin1]

Hi,

There is no controversy, its contradiction. Many of my questions were not answered and I have read previous forums as well.

I disagree to Kmaherali that one ayat can have multiple representations. Quran is book of all times.It cannot be changed according to given scenario. Its not about camel or car, its the guidance to live life.

I also disagree that "there is no compulsion". There is absolute compulsion in Islam and rules needs to be followed.

If you still think, I am wrong than you can read my previous post and answer, else like kmajerali said there is no force asking someone to do something, you can also ignore me.

Saleem

[kmaherali]

There is no controversy, its contradiction. Many of my questions were not answered and I have read previous forums as well.

In Quran there are many contradictions. For example there are verses which state that the Prophet was only a man and there are verses which state that he was the Manifest Light. Hence the need for authoritative interpretation.

I disagree to Kmaherali that one ayat can have multiple representations. Quran is book of all times.It cannot be changed according to given scenario. Its not about camel or car, its the guidance to live life..

There is a fundamental disagreement. Let us agree to disagree.

I also disagree that "there is no compulsion". There is absolute compulsion in Islam and rules needs to be followed.

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[enzuru]

In my talks with brothers and sisters of different understandings of Islam, what strikes me the most difficult is preconceived notions that are not rooted in Islam nor in the Qur'an. They say they believe this and that, and whatever contradicts with it has to be incorrect. When I ask for the sources of these beliefs, it is usually scholars or their books of hadith. Generally (as in this case) your beliefs aren't based from the Qur'an, they are based from notions foreign to the Qur'an and arguably foreign to Islam itself.

One example was an Iranian Twelver girl who told me that shariah can never change after the Prophet, and that only Prophets could institute and change shariah. The big three shariah dispensations are generally Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.

To counteract this false idea, I went as far as to cite the Qur'an which specifically states that Allah changed the dietary restrictions of the shariah dispensation he gave to Moses. After a while of being unable to respond, she finally responded that those were Prophets/Messengers too hence could change the shariah dispensation given to the Children of Israel. When I asked for Qur'anic evidence that only these Prophets/Messengers could change shariah, she was not able to supply any.

The best thing you could do my brother/sister, is not argue with us. Rather, meditate on the sources of your beliefs. Why do you believe what you believe? What is its source? Is this source valid, is this belief logical? What could you ever say to factually prove these sources and beliefs?

[arshad1988]

Extract from : http://www.miraclesofthequran.com

WORD REPETITIONS IN THE QUR'AN

Apart from the miraculous characteristics of the Qur'an which we have looked into so far, it also contains what we can term "mathematical miracles." There are many examples of this fascinating Qur'anic aspect. One example of this is the number of repetitions of certain words in the Qur'an. Some related words are surprisingly repeated the same number of times. Below is a list of such words and the number of repetitions in the Qur'an.

The statement of "seven heavens" is repeated seven times. "The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)" is also repeated seven times.

"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.

The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same: 26

The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.

When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."

The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115

The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).

The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

The word "zakah" is repeated in the Qur'an 32 times and the number of repetitions of the word "blessing" (barakah) is also 32.

The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but "the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used half as much, i.e., 3 times.

The number of times the words "Summer-hot" and "winter-cold" are repeated is the same: 5.

The words "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times: 6

The number of appearances of the words "mind" and "light" is the same: 49.

The words "tongue" and "sermon" are both repeated 25 times.

The words "benefit" and "corrupt" both appear 50 times.

"Reward" (ajr) and "action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.

"Love" (al-mahabbah) and "obedience" (al-ta'ah) also appear the same number of times: 83

The words "refuge" (maseer) and "for ever" (abadan) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 28.

The words "disaster" (al-musibah) and "thanks" (al-shukr) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 75.

"Sun" (shams) and "light" (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur'an.

In counting the word "light" only the simple forms of the word were included.
The number of appearances of "right guidance" (al-huda) and "mercy" (al-rahma) is the same: 79

The words "trouble" and "peace" are both repeated 13 times in the Qur'an.

The words "man" and "woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.

Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.
(Qur’an, 4:82)

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.

"Treachery" (khiyanah) is repeated 16 times, while the number of repetitions of the word "foul" (khabith) is 16.

"Human being" is used 65 times: the sum of the number of references to the stages of man's creation is the same: i.e.

Human being 65

Soil (turab) 17

Drop of Sperm (nutfah) 12

Embryo ('alaq) 6

A half formed lump of flesh (mudghah) 3

Bone ('idham) 15

Flesh (lahm) 12

TOTAL 65

The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

[arshad1988]

Surah 22 This is the Book;
In it is guidance sure, without doubt,
To those who fear God;

Surah 7516. Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

18. But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):

19. Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):

Surah 15:
9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Surah 25
1. Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;--

Surah 6
115. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

Surah 4
82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Surah 16
89. One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.


Hence, one must think very deeply and take deep caution before stating that the Qur'an is incomplete. You may have to answer for it one day. If what was revealed had any inconsistencies, it would have been brought to light, as Allah says in the above verses. Above I have also posted some recent word repetitions found in the Qur'an. There are many scientific miracles in the Qur'an as well. But remember, a Qur'an is not a book of science, rather, a Book of Instruction and Guidance.

[arshad1988]

“The month of Ramadan is that in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for
mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong).”
(2:185)

"And certainly We have repeated for humankind, in this Qur’an, every kind of
example, but the majority of humankind do not consent to anything but denying."
(17:89)

“We have put forth for humans, in this Qur’an, every kind of example so that they
may remember”
(39:27).

"A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a Qur'an that makes things clear. "
(15:1)

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less
than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: "
(36:69)

" O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you
much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much: There hath come to
you from Allah a (new) light and a clear Book, "
(5:15)

"A.L.R. These are the verses of the clear Book."
(12:1)

"These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear "
(26:2)

"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;"
(27:1)

"These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear."
(28:2)

"By the Book that makes things clear,"
(43:2, 44:2)

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of
everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."
(16:89)

"We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from
(the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who
fear (Allah)."
(24:34)

“Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you
the Book (which is) distinctly detailed”
(6:114)

“And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with
knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe”
(7:52)

“A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic Qur’an for people who
know”
(41:3)

“Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder”
(6:126)

“And this Qur’an is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a
verification of that which is in his possession and a distinct elucidation of the book,
and there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the Worlds”
(10:37)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this
book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been
revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbour any doubt."
(6:114)

"We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and
mercy for the people who believe."
(7:52)

"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all
previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes
from the Lord of the universe."
(10:37)

"A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning),
further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all
things): "
(11:1)

“In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a
narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct
explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.”
(12:111)

"We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night
have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye
may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the
years: all things have We explained in detail."
(17:12)

“And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way
thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have detailed Our
revelations for a people who have knowledge.”
(6:97)

“And He it is Who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) a
habitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have
understanding.”
(6:98)

“This is the way of thy Lord, leading straight: We have detailed the signs for those
who receive admonition.”
(6:126)

“Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who reflect”
(10:24)

“Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who use their reason”
(30:28)

“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book, which is recited to
them? Most surely there is a mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe”
(29:51)

[From_Alamut]

Bukhari 6:509 says that when certain people died, parts of the Qur'an known only to them were lost. Other Bukhari Hadiths saying parts of the Qur'an were missing and/or abrogated are 4:57,62, 69,229; 6:510,511.

Many Muslims are not aware that the Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.

In Bukhari Hadith 6:509 some parts of the Qur'an were said to be lost (not abrogated

Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today

Caliph Uthman threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans

In Bukhari 1:63 Anas relates, "Uthman got the Qur’an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari 4:709 says, "Uthman... wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book"

since Caliph Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari 6:510) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today
According to Mohammed’s wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume

[arshad1988]

Surah 15:
9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).


Surah 75:16. Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

18. But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):

19. Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):


"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all
previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes
from the Lord of the universe."
(10:37)

Surah 22 This is the Book;
In it is guidance sure, without doubt,
To those who fear God;

It doesn't matter if Uthman, or Uthman's entire family tried to corrupt the Qur'an - Allah has given His solemn oath in protecting it. Do you yet question it?

He has clearly told us not to lift our tongue before commenting on it.

If there were verses in the Qur'an 'abrogaged' - would it be possible for these miraculous discoveries to be possible? I mean you could say that there were scientific miracles left out. However, I mean it is now going into mathematical correlations and repetitions...If verses were abrogated then clearly these mathematical repetitions could not be taking place.

Just to give you an example:

Allah gives the significance of the number 19 in the Qur'an:

"There are nineteen in charge of it." (Qur'an, 74:30)

This number is a significant number in the Qur'an, as it indicates the number of letters in the phrase "Bismillahir-rahmanir-rahim" in Arabic.

The first verses of the Qur'an to be revealed were the first five verses of Surah 96 - al-'Alaq - which contains 19 words

Furthermore, when looking at the 19th last surah in the Holy Qur'an, and in the 19th verse of the Surah - ironically, it also contains 19 letters.

Now if this Qur'an was abrogated, I find it very hard, if not impossible to believe that theses miracles (or ayahs/signs) can exist.

Lastly I would like to point out the Arabic significance of words of which I am slightly aware.

The above ayat I quoted

15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

The arabic transliteration of this verse is:

"Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona"

Now the word 'Inna' in Arabic is loosely translated as 'Verily' or 'In truth' or as above stated "Without Doubt". In Arabic this is an oath given by Allah. Can you imagine God having to give an oath? He is not in need of giving oaths, as whatever He revealed to His servant is absolute and Truth without Doubt!

Now by having Allah, the Exalted to give an oath on preserving and guarding His message to humanity, should give you some sort of indication to the extent and weight of this oath...It is not just any ordinary 'Fulan or Fulan' or any "tom dick or harry'' as they say nowadays. It is an oath given by God, the Exalted, one who has Power over All things, capable of preserving His Book, His Word, and His Message to Humanity!

Now if you are quoting Bukhari, if you do in fact believe the hadiths inside, you should also look inside in regards to the status of Caliph Uthman uttered by the Holy Prophet. He was one of the rare individuals guaranteed paradise.

Lastly, when you say he burned and buried the copies of the Qur'an, you make it seem like a dishonourable thing. However, the only way to get rid of a Qur'an which is not in such great shape is to either burn or bury it, as having the copies of it laying around in places that would dishonour its status is not something fitting for the 'kalam' or words of God. Hence, they were burned or buried. It is not to say that the copies buried and burned did not match the copies of Uthman, only Allah knows best. He only wanted to reassure that the copy he had was taken from the copy that was written down by the scribes during the Prophet's time.

[enzuru]

Bukhari 6:509 says that when certain people died, parts of the Qur'an known only to them were lost. Other Bukhari Hadiths saying parts of the Qur'an were missing and/or abrogated are 4:57,62, 69,229; 6:510,511.

In Bukhari Hadith 6:509 some parts of the Qur'an were said to be lost (not abrogated

For reference, here are the hadith. Most of these simply state that verses in the Qur'an were found among a few people, they don't really clarify the Qur'an has been changed. Also, 4:229 I didn't see anything really interesting.



Volume 4, Book 52, Number 69:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

For thirty days Allah's Apostle invoked Allah to curse those who had killed the companions of Bir-Mauna; he invoked evil upon the tribes of Ral, Dhakwan, and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and His Apostle. There was reveled about those who were killed at Bir-Mauna a Quranic Verse we used to recite, but it was cancelled later on. The Verse was:

"Inform our people that we have met our Lord. He is pleased with us and He has made us pleased"



Volume 4, Book 52, Number 62:
Narrated Kharija bin Zaid:

Zaid bin Thabit said, "When the Quran was compiled from various written manuscripts, one of the Verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting. I could not find it except with Khuzaima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah's Apostle regarded as equal to the witness of two men. And the Verse was:-- "Among the believers are men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah." (33.23)



Volume 4, Book 52, Number 57:
Narrated Anas:

The Prophet sent seventy men from the tribe of Bani Salim to the tribe of Bani Amir. When they reached there, my maternal uncle said to them, "I will go ahead of you, and if they allow me to convey the message of Allah's Apostle (it will be all right); otherwise you will remain close to me." So he went ahead of them and the pagans granted him security But while he was reporting the message of the Prophet , they beckoned to one of their men who stabbed him to death. My maternal uncle said, "Allah is Greater! By the Lord of the Kaba, I am successful." After that they attached the rest of the party and killed them all except a lame man who went up to the top of the mountain. (Hammam, a sub-narrator said, "I think another man was saved along with him)." Gabriel informed the Prophet that they (i.e the martyrs) met their Lord, and He was pleased with them and made them pleased. We used to recite, "Inform our people that we have met our Lord, He is pleased with us and He has made us pleased " Later on this Quranic Verse was cancelled. The Prophet invoked Allah for forty days to curse the murderers from the tribe of Ral, Dhakwan, Bani Lihyan and Bam Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and his Apostle



Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.


Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)



Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)

Many Muslims are not aware that the Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.

I believe you are speaking about the verse (not surah) of stoning. Umar ibn al-Khattab claimed there was a verse about stoning adulterers in the Qur'an. Since this is not found in the Qur'an, hadith is used in order to exercise this punishment on adulterers. Do you really think this was in the Qur'an?

Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today

You can learn about the earliest copies of the Qur'an we have today here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscripts

The earliest manuscripts of the Qur'an that we have today, pre-Uthmanic, pretty much are exactly the same as the Qur'an we have today except for dialectical differences. It was in fact dialectical differences that Uthman was worried about, from my knowledge. I'm not familiar with two surahs missing?

Caliph Uthman threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans

Indeed, but among the Twelver are traditions confirming that the Ahl al-Bayt had ensured that the Qur'an was preserved. I personally believe these traditions are accurate.

since Caliph Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari 6:510) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today
According to Mohammed’s wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume

I think we need much better sources than the ones being provided. Yes, the order of the surahs (and arguably verses) of the Qur'an is lost, all Muslims accept this fact. In fact the Twelvers say that Muhammad al-Mahdi will bring back a Qur'an that is in correct order which will I think elucidate more on its true meaning. For me, when the Imam states that the Ginans are the missing ayat of the Qur'an, it seems to pinpoint more at the meaning than literal missing ayat (in non-Arabic no less). Remember, Imam SMS stated that Rumi and the Pir read the true meaning of the Qur'an, how could they if it had been lost? Surely Rumi had a normal Qur'an like any other Sunni (or Shi'a)!

[From_Alamut]

To Arshad:[\b]

The Qur'an has been guarded from corruption, as the true and only correct version of the Qur'an is still in existence, and always will be, and is in the possession of the Imam of the time. The message of the Qur'an is still being delivered even today by the Imam of the time. Mowlana Ali was the speaking Qur'an. In this sense also the Qur'an has never been corrupted and will never be corrupted. Furthermore, the Prophet once, in referring to Mowlana Hussein, said the Qur'an is standing on Qur'an, to Aisha, which is from hadiths.

Also, there is no doubt among scholars that the Qur'an is not in its actual order. If the suras are clearly not in order, then the ayats are also very possibly not in order.

Of course the burning of the copies of the Qur'an is a dishonourable thing. Particularly if one believes that Uthman should not have had the authority in the first place to decide what is actually Qur'an, and what isn't.

If Allah would have wanted the Qur'an to be compiled in a book, then He would have asked Prophet Muhammad to do it himself. Allah refers to the Qur'an continuously, however the Qur'an Uthman compiled was not even made during that time. So what is Allah referring to exactly when He says Qur'an, even when He states it as a book? Think over that and perhaps you may realize the true answer inshaAllah.

To Enzuru:

The hadiths I quoted, which you analyzed well, are simply given to demonstrate that even after the initial compilation, there were verses found. Furthermore, the amount of people dying in battle who had memorized the Qur'an could clearly have lost parts of the Qur'an with them. The hadiths speak on the ayats that were found, the implication here is the numerous ayats that were not found.

Yes, ISMS stated that Rumi and the Pirs had read the Qur'an with its true meaning, this is because beyond the zahir in the Qur'an, there is a batin. This batini aspect can be read even in Uthman's Qur'an. Even in Uthman's Qur'an we have numerous ayats that refer, implicitly or explicitly, to the Imam-e-mubin. However, ISMS and the Pirs have given pretty strong breakdowns about the ayats or siparas missing from the Qur'an. The Qur'an has 40 siparas, 10 were removed, leaving Uthman's Qur'an with 30. The ginans go into detail on this.

There is also a hadith from Mowlana Jaffar Sadiq that illustrates how certain words didnt make grammatical sense, and how a particular reference to Mowlana Ali in the Qur'an was changed to Allah, and this was proved by Him grammatically.

[star_munir]

To Arshad:[\b]

The Qur'an has been guarded from corruption, as the true and only correct version of the Qur'an is still in existence, and always will be, and is in the possession of the Imam of the time. The message of the Qur'an is still being delivered even today by the Imam of the time. Mowlana Ali was the speaking Qur'an. In this sense also the Qur'an has never been corrupted and will never be corrupted. Furthermore, the Prophet once, in referring to Mowlana Hussein, said the Qur'an is standing on Qur'an, to Aisha, which is from hadiths.

Also, there is no doubt among scholars that the Qur'an is not in its actual order. If the suras are clearly not in order, then the ayats are also very possibly not in order.

Of course the burning of the copies of the Qur'an is a dishonourable thing. Particularly if one believes that Uthman should not have had the authority in the first place to decide what is actually Qur'an, and what isn't.

If Allah would have wanted the Qur'an to be compiled in a book, then He would have asked Prophet Muhammad to do it himself. Allah refers to the Qur'an continuously, however the Qur'an Uthman compiled was not even made during that time. So what is Allah referring to exactly when He says Qur'an, even when He states it as a book? Think over that and perhaps you may realize the true answer inshaAllah.

To Enzuru:

The hadiths I quoted, which you analyzed well, are simply given to demonstrate that even after the initial compilation, there were verses found. Furthermore, the amount of people dying in battle who had memorized the Qur'an could clearly have lost parts of the Qur'an with them. The hadiths speak on the ayats that were found, the implication here is the numerous ayats that were not found.

Yes, ISMS stated that Rumi and the Pirs had read the Qur'an with its true meaning, this is because beyond the zahir in the Qur'an, there is a batin. This batini aspect can be read even in Uthman's Qur'an. Even in Uthman's Qur'an we have numerous ayats that refer, implicitly or explicitly, to the Imam-e-mubin. However, ISMS and the Pirs have given pretty strong breakdowns about the ayats or siparas missing from the Qur'an. The Qur'an has 40 siparas, 10 were removed, leaving Uthman's Qur'an with 30. The ginans go into detail on this.

There is also a hadith from Mowlana Jaffar Sadiq that illustrates how certain words didnt make grammatical sense, and how a particular reference to Mowlana Ali in the Qur'an was changed to Allah, and this was proved by Him grammatically.

Can you give the details of what Imam Jaffer Sadiq has said in this regard. Also besides Moman Chetamni is there any Granth/Ginan which says about this issue?

[Admin]

When Allah mentioned People of the Book, which Book was he referring to since the compilation came very late and that compilation was not the one followed by all the "People of the Book'?

This would be an interesting subject to discuss?

[kmaherali]

When Allah mentioned People of the Book, which Book was he referring to since the compilation came very late and that compilation was not the one followed by all the "People of the Book'?

This would be an interesting subject to discuss?

In the LBC interview (at http://ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcenglish.html) , MHI specifically talks about the “People of the Book”, within the context of pluralism:

"LBC: Yes, but is there a place in the Islamic World for the other religions?

AK: Oh, for sure! Islam is a faith that recognises the preceding monotheistic interpretations, Judaism and Christianity, called the "People of the Book". It is one Book. So for me there is no doubt whatsoever. "


So which is the one Book? It is certainly not the one compiled by Uthman.

Could the Book be the archetypal one underlying all books? And wouldn’t that be the the one we refer to as the Speaking Quran and which is the complete one encompassing all books.