YAM all,
I am curious to know what your thoughts are on the completeness of Quran? Someone mentioned to me once that Quran is complete in all its entirety. Thats Quran contains exactly what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad without any interpretation. The Arabic word for this is Tanzil, I think. This is what we believe as Muslims.
But then, I have also heard that there was parts about Hazrat Ali that weren't included in the Quran for political reasons of the time, and the conflict between Shia and Sunni.
What do you think? Is the Quran complete in all its enterity? Or have parts been left out from it? Are all the messages in the Quran universal? Or were some of the messages applicable to that period of time in that specific context? Does it even matter if Quran is or isn't complete since we have a Hazar Imam as our present living Quran?
Please share your thoughts!
Is Quran compilation complete?
-
noorani_786
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:05 am
- Location: Tx
Quran's Relevance.
Mowlana HazarImam gave a very interesting speech recently at the Ismaili Centre, London on the subject of the Quran and it's importance in the broader context of the Muslim Umma. How it has inspired magnificient works of art and how it enshrines the notion of pluralism. He mentioned it's richness in allegory and metaphor. It is the perspective of the Imam who we believe is the most qualified person to interprete the Quran, i.e. the "Ulil Amr". This speech can be referenced at:
http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/speeches_ak4/2003b.htm
I have also posted an article: "Relevance of the Quran in Ismaili Tariqah" in the Ginan section as a reply to the title "Kamaluddin and the Ginans". You may want to refer to it.
The following is the Firman fo Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah suggesting that the Quran was tampered with.
"Those who show partiality and try to favour somebody, then they will become ignorant like those who having brought about alterations in the Quran created discord in religion after the demise of Prophet Muhamad."(Zanzibar, 14 September 1905)
http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/speeches_ak4/2003b.htm
I have also posted an article: "Relevance of the Quran in Ismaili Tariqah" in the Ginan section as a reply to the title "Kamaluddin and the Ginans". You may want to refer to it.
The following is the Firman fo Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah suggesting that the Quran was tampered with.
"Those who show partiality and try to favour somebody, then they will become ignorant like those who having brought about alterations in the Quran created discord in religion after the demise of Prophet Muhamad."(Zanzibar, 14 September 1905)
MHI
Speech at the Opening Session of
‘Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’
An International Colloquium organised by
The Institute of Ismaili Studies
His Highness the Aga Khan
The Ismaili Centre, London
October 19, 2003
Download PDF version of speech (31 KB)
Play Video Realplayer Lo-Res | Hi-Res
Windows Media Player Lo-Res | Hi-Res
Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim
Your Excellencies,
Your Worship,
Distinguished Scholars and Guests,
Ladies and Gentlemen,
An assembly of the wise and learned is a privileged occasion. I am, therefore, immensely happy to be with you this morning as you begin your deliberations on a theme which, though of perennial interest, holds a special significance at a time that calls for enlightened encounters among faiths and cultures. Whatever its vernacular forms, the language of art, more so when it is spiritually inspired, can be a positive barrier-transcending medium of discourse, manifesting the depths of the human spirit.
The venue for this international colloquium is particularly appropriate. In its architectural design and definition of broader functions, the Ismaili Centre in London, like its counterparts in other countries, has been conceived in a mood of dialogue, of humility, of friendship and of harmony. These Centres reflect a commitment to premiate excellence of endeavour in the realms of the intellect and the spirit.
I thank you most warmly for setting aside the time from your busy schedules to participate in this colloquium. I also congratulate the Institute of Ismaili Studies for marking the twenty-fifth year since its inauguration through this timely event. This is a part of its ongoing ambitious programme of Qur’anic studies in which scholars from around the world, both Muslim and of other persuasions, are participating. They bring to bear a variety of academic disciplines on a reflection of how Islam's revelation, with its challenge to man’s innate gift of quest and reason, became a powerful impetus for a new flowering of human civilisation.
This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur’an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word. Happily, as a result, the Holy Book continues to guide and illuminate the thought and conduct of Muslims belonging to different communities of interpretation and spiritual affiliation, from century to century, in diverse cultural environments. The Noble Qur’an extends its principle of pluralism also to adherents of other faiths. It affirms that each has a direction and path to which they turn so that all should strive for good works, in the belief that, wheresoever they may be, Allah will bring them together.
Tradition honours the vocation of the learned scholars who are gathered here for this colloquium. The Qur’an itself acknowledges that people upon whom wisdom has been bestowed are the recipients of abundant good; they are the exalted ones. Hence Islam's consistent encouragement to Muslim men and women to seek knowledge wherever it is to be found. We are all familiar that al-Kindi, even in the 9th century, saw no shame in acknowledging and assimilating the truth, whatever its source. He argued that truth never abases, but only ennobles its seeker. Poetising the Prophet’s teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul.
This colloquium covers a range of Muslim expressions in the Arts, across time and space. Some among the eminent scholars present today have observed that, while the Qur’an may not propound a doctrine of Islamic art or material culture, it does offer imaginative scope in this direction. From early on, its passages have inspired works of art and architecture, and shaped attitudes and norms that have guided the development of Muslim artistic traditions.
In this context, would it not also be relevant to consider how, above all, it has been the Qur’anic notion of the universe as an expression of Allah’s will and creation that has inspired, in diverse Muslim communities, generations of artists, scientists and philosophers? Scientific pursuits, philosophic inquiry and artistic endeavour are all seen as the response of the faithful to the recurring call of the Qur’an to ponder the creation as a way to understand Allah's benevolent majesty. As Sura al-Baqara proclaims: ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’.
Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being?
The famous verse of ‘light’ in the Qur’an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy. Many other verses of the Qur’an have similarly inspired calligraphy in all its forms, reminding us of the richness and vitality of Muslim traditions in the Arts.
It is my sincere hope that this colloquium will bring additional insights to an understanding of the Holy Qur’an as a message that encompasses the entirety of human existence and effort. It is concerned with the salvation of the soul, but commensurately also with the ethical imperatives which sustain an equitable social order. The Qur’an’s is an inclusive vision of society that gives primacy to nobility of conduct. It speaks of differences of language and colour as a divine sign of mercy and a portent for people of knowledge to reflect upon.
Ours is a time when knowledge and information are expanding at an accelerating and, perhaps, unsettling pace. There exists, therefore, an unprecedented capacity for improving the human condition. And yet, ills such as abject poverty and ignorance, and the conflicts these breed, continue to afflict the world. The Qur’an addresses this challenge eloquently. The power of its message is reflected in its gracious disposition to differences of interpretation; its respect for other faiths and societies; its affirmation of the primacy of the intellect; its insistence that knowledge is worthy when it is used to serve Allah’s creation; and, above all, its emphasis on our common humanity.
As this colloquium embarks on its deliberations, I wish you well in all your proceedings.
Thank you.
‘Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’
An International Colloquium organised by
The Institute of Ismaili Studies
His Highness the Aga Khan
The Ismaili Centre, London
October 19, 2003
Download PDF version of speech (31 KB)
Play Video Realplayer Lo-Res | Hi-Res
Windows Media Player Lo-Res | Hi-Res
Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim
Your Excellencies,
Your Worship,
Distinguished Scholars and Guests,
Ladies and Gentlemen,
An assembly of the wise and learned is a privileged occasion. I am, therefore, immensely happy to be with you this morning as you begin your deliberations on a theme which, though of perennial interest, holds a special significance at a time that calls for enlightened encounters among faiths and cultures. Whatever its vernacular forms, the language of art, more so when it is spiritually inspired, can be a positive barrier-transcending medium of discourse, manifesting the depths of the human spirit.
The venue for this international colloquium is particularly appropriate. In its architectural design and definition of broader functions, the Ismaili Centre in London, like its counterparts in other countries, has been conceived in a mood of dialogue, of humility, of friendship and of harmony. These Centres reflect a commitment to premiate excellence of endeavour in the realms of the intellect and the spirit.
I thank you most warmly for setting aside the time from your busy schedules to participate in this colloquium. I also congratulate the Institute of Ismaili Studies for marking the twenty-fifth year since its inauguration through this timely event. This is a part of its ongoing ambitious programme of Qur’anic studies in which scholars from around the world, both Muslim and of other persuasions, are participating. They bring to bear a variety of academic disciplines on a reflection of how Islam's revelation, with its challenge to man’s innate gift of quest and reason, became a powerful impetus for a new flowering of human civilisation.
This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur’an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word. Happily, as a result, the Holy Book continues to guide and illuminate the thought and conduct of Muslims belonging to different communities of interpretation and spiritual affiliation, from century to century, in diverse cultural environments. The Noble Qur’an extends its principle of pluralism also to adherents of other faiths. It affirms that each has a direction and path to which they turn so that all should strive for good works, in the belief that, wheresoever they may be, Allah will bring them together.
Tradition honours the vocation of the learned scholars who are gathered here for this colloquium. The Qur’an itself acknowledges that people upon whom wisdom has been bestowed are the recipients of abundant good; they are the exalted ones. Hence Islam's consistent encouragement to Muslim men and women to seek knowledge wherever it is to be found. We are all familiar that al-Kindi, even in the 9th century, saw no shame in acknowledging and assimilating the truth, whatever its source. He argued that truth never abases, but only ennobles its seeker. Poetising the Prophet’s teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul.
This colloquium covers a range of Muslim expressions in the Arts, across time and space. Some among the eminent scholars present today have observed that, while the Qur’an may not propound a doctrine of Islamic art or material culture, it does offer imaginative scope in this direction. From early on, its passages have inspired works of art and architecture, and shaped attitudes and norms that have guided the development of Muslim artistic traditions.
In this context, would it not also be relevant to consider how, above all, it has been the Qur’anic notion of the universe as an expression of Allah’s will and creation that has inspired, in diverse Muslim communities, generations of artists, scientists and philosophers? Scientific pursuits, philosophic inquiry and artistic endeavour are all seen as the response of the faithful to the recurring call of the Qur’an to ponder the creation as a way to understand Allah's benevolent majesty. As Sura al-Baqara proclaims: ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’.
Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being?
The famous verse of ‘light’ in the Qur’an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy. Many other verses of the Qur’an have similarly inspired calligraphy in all its forms, reminding us of the richness and vitality of Muslim traditions in the Arts.
It is my sincere hope that this colloquium will bring additional insights to an understanding of the Holy Qur’an as a message that encompasses the entirety of human existence and effort. It is concerned with the salvation of the soul, but commensurately also with the ethical imperatives which sustain an equitable social order. The Qur’an’s is an inclusive vision of society that gives primacy to nobility of conduct. It speaks of differences of language and colour as a divine sign of mercy and a portent for people of knowledge to reflect upon.
Ours is a time when knowledge and information are expanding at an accelerating and, perhaps, unsettling pace. There exists, therefore, an unprecedented capacity for improving the human condition. And yet, ills such as abject poverty and ignorance, and the conflicts these breed, continue to afflict the world. The Qur’an addresses this challenge eloquently. The power of its message is reflected in its gracious disposition to differences of interpretation; its respect for other faiths and societies; its affirmation of the primacy of the intellect; its insistence that knowledge is worthy when it is used to serve Allah’s creation; and, above all, its emphasis on our common humanity.
As this colloquium embarks on its deliberations, I wish you well in all your proceedings.
Thank you.
YES BUT NO
THE QURAN WHICH IS WITH MY MOWLA IS COMPLETE
THE BOOK THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CALLS THE QURAN IS NOT.
IN FACT IMAM SMS FARMANS MENTION THAT THERE WERE THINGS TAKENOUT AND INSERTED. ALSO THINGS FROM THE FRONT WERE PUT BEHIND AND THINGS FROM BEHIND IN FRONT.
IMAM SMS CALLS IT USMANS KITAB.
I THINK THE FARMAN IS FARMAN NUMBER 20 OR 21 IN KIM PART 1 FIRST EDITION.
THE EDITIONS OF KIM PART 1 AFTER SECOND WORLD WAR DO NOT HAVE CERTAIN SENTENCES IN THEM ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
SHAMS
THE BOOK THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CALLS THE QURAN IS NOT.
IN FACT IMAM SMS FARMANS MENTION THAT THERE WERE THINGS TAKENOUT AND INSERTED. ALSO THINGS FROM THE FRONT WERE PUT BEHIND AND THINGS FROM BEHIND IN FRONT.
IMAM SMS CALLS IT USMANS KITAB.
I THINK THE FARMAN IS FARMAN NUMBER 20 OR 21 IN KIM PART 1 FIRST EDITION.
THE EDITIONS OF KIM PART 1 AFTER SECOND WORLD WAR DO NOT HAVE CERTAIN SENTENCES IN THEM ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
SHAMS
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
.
copied from anti islamic website therfore I will not tell name.
dont know how much true.Is it true or not???
Bukhari 6:509 says that when certain people died, parts of the Qur'an known only to them were lost. Other Bukhari Hadiths saying parts of the Qur'an were missing and/or abrogated are 4:57,62, 69,229; 6:510,511.
Many Muslims are not aware that the Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.
In Bukhari Hadith 6:509 some parts of the Qur'an were said to be lost (not abrogated
Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today
Caliph Uthman threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans
In Bukhari 1:63 Anas relates, "Uthman got the Qur’an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari 4:709 says, "Uthman... wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book"
since Caliph Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari 6:510) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today
According to Mohammed’s wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume
copied from anti islamic website therfore I will not tell name.
dont know how much true.Is it true or not???
Bukhari 6:509 says that when certain people died, parts of the Qur'an known only to them were lost. Other Bukhari Hadiths saying parts of the Qur'an were missing and/or abrogated are 4:57,62, 69,229; 6:510,511.
Many Muslims are not aware that the Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.
In Bukhari Hadith 6:509 some parts of the Qur'an were said to be lost (not abrogated
Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today
Caliph Uthman threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans
In Bukhari 1:63 Anas relates, "Uthman got the Qur’an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari 4:709 says, "Uthman... wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book"
since Caliph Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari 6:510) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today
According to Mohammed’s wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume
Last edited by star_munir on Thu May 06, 2004 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
surae Tauba
Those 200 verses of surae tauba were eaten by a goat. They were written on leaves
Shams
Shams
In regards to this topic, I have heard SMS (SA) Farman which explicitly explains that the chapters which were omitted from the Quran were given to Pir Sadardin and they were - 10 chapters ( "para das" were words used by SMS). Futhermore, if my momery serves me correct, SMS then alludes by saying one can find the teachings of these omitted 10 chapters from studying the Ruhani Ginans composed by Pir Sadardin.
YAM,
The Quran is the Book of God. It emcompasses all of the divine books and this is why the people who believe in God's message are calles "People of THE BOOK". It is one Book. God has protected the Quran which is His eternal message.
Now this said, human beings are not perfect and therefore the Prophet of God, our Holy Prophet himself, may peace be upon him, never compiled the Quran.
If Islam was perfected during the time of our Holy Prophet [PBUH] and at that time there was no compilation, who was Osman to bipass the messenger of God and even God himself who had decided that Islam was perfected even though no compilation was made by Osman.
But Osman did it and he messed big time. From a dynamic Islam, he rendered the Religion of God a religion of the past. From a religion made for the whole of human kind, he made it a religion for Arabs. For a Perfect message where Allah showed to human kind how His Light will guide them through Ages through the Imam of the Time, he removed all references to this Eternal Manifest Light. Shame on Osman. Shame on the followers of Osman. May Allah bless all those who followed Allah's message as brought by His Last Prophet [PBUH]. Ameen!
Nagib
The Quran is the Book of God. It emcompasses all of the divine books and this is why the people who believe in God's message are calles "People of THE BOOK". It is one Book. God has protected the Quran which is His eternal message.
Now this said, human beings are not perfect and therefore the Prophet of God, our Holy Prophet himself, may peace be upon him, never compiled the Quran.
If Islam was perfected during the time of our Holy Prophet [PBUH] and at that time there was no compilation, who was Osman to bipass the messenger of God and even God himself who had decided that Islam was perfected even though no compilation was made by Osman.
But Osman did it and he messed big time. From a dynamic Islam, he rendered the Religion of God a religion of the past. From a religion made for the whole of human kind, he made it a religion for Arabs. For a Perfect message where Allah showed to human kind how His Light will guide them through Ages through the Imam of the Time, he removed all references to this Eternal Manifest Light. Shame on Osman. Shame on the followers of Osman. May Allah bless all those who followed Allah's message as brought by His Last Prophet [PBUH]. Ameen!
Nagib
YAM,nagib wrote:YAM,
But Osman did it and he messed big time. From a dynamic Islam, he rendered the Religion of God a religion of the past. From a religion made for the whole of human kind, he made it a religion for Arabs. For a Perfect message where Allah showed to human kind how His Light will guide them through Ages through the Imam of the Time, he removed all references to this Eternal Manifest Light. Shame on Osman. Shame on the followers of Osman. May Allah bless all those who followed Allah's message as brought by His Last Prophet [PBUH]. Ameen!
Nagib
Very well expressed! I think if pluralism (with respect to interpretation of faith) is allowed to flourish, then over a period of time, a clear distinction will emerge between the true and the false interpretations and hopefully this mess will be cleared. That is why promoting pluralism is so important.
Hi. Okay, this is about something different, but when you said humans aren't perfect, and then mentioned the Prophet, a question arose in my head- Do we believe that Prophet Muhammed never sinned during his life? I was always under the impression that the Imam and the Prophet, as well as other Prophets, did not sin...am i correct? i just needed some clarification on this. Thanks!nagib wrote:YAM,
Now this said, human beings are not perfect and therefore the Prophet of God, our Holy Prophet himself, may peace be upon him, never compiled the Quran.
Nagib
The belief in the purity of the prophets and Imams is fundamental in our practice. Why would we want to obey someone less than perfect? This belief is reinforced in our Dua as:nargisk3 wrote:Hi. Okay, this is about something different, but when you said humans aren't perfect, and then mentioned the Prophet, a question arose in my head- Do we believe that Prophet Muhammed never sinned during his life? I was always under the impression that the Imam and the Prophet, as well as other Prophets, did not sin...am i correct? i just needed some clarification on this. Thanks!nagib wrote:YAM,
Now this said, human beings are not perfect and therefore the Prophet of God, our Holy Prophet himself, may peace be upon him, never compiled the Quran.
Nagib
(4th Part) "BI HAQQI RUSULLIKAL MUKARRABEEN WA AIMATIKAL MUTAHARRIN"
Meaning:
In the name of the prophets the HOLY and the Imams the PURE.
Article from Calgary Herald on Quran
The following is an extract of an article that appeared in today's Calgary Herald. It mentions about resistance to apply modern approaches to Quranic studies and suggests that the Quran was tampered with.
In his talk, Carey made the following observation concerning the origins of Islam. The Prophet, Carey remarked, "is said to have received God's word direct, word by word from angels, and scribes recorded them later." Because the Qur'an is said to have come directly from God, believers are told it is "eternal" and not to be questioned or revised.
"In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years, critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."
There are two interconnected issues here.
First is the question of whether the Qur'an has ever been revised and second is the tangled relationship of traditional piety to modernity.
Regarding the latter, the Muslim Council of Britain responded: "Lord Carey appears clearly to be quite frustrated by the fact that the Muslims the world over continue to believe and try to live by the words of God as revealed in the Qur'an to the Prophet Muhammad." Manzoor Mughal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organizations in Leicester, added that "modernity" in Christianity had resulted in hundreds of thousands of people leaving the church.
For Mughal and the Muslim Council, there is no genuine theological dispute to be made with modernity or with modern scholarship. Traditional piety (including Jewish and Christian variants) simply rejects modernity.
For Carey, matters are more complex. At one point, he said that "while Christianity and Judaism had a long history of often painful critical scholarship, Islamic theology was only now being challenged to become more open to examination."
Indeed, the critical and scholarly exchange between and within Christianity and Judaism has been extensive and not always detached. However, the application of textual and archeological scholarship to sacred writings is practically a definition of the modern approach to religious experience, which returns us to the question of revisions of the text of the Qur'an.
During the past 40 years, several scholars, some Muslim, some not, but most of them resident in the West, have raised a number of questions regarding the early Islamic community and the status of the text that was finalized as the Qur'an. All agree the final text was established during the time of the third caliph, Uthman, a generation after the death of the Prophet. Until 1972, no one knew of any "imperfect," which is to say, pre-Uthman, copies. That year, an extensive manuscript collection was found in the Grand Mosque at Sanaa in Yemen a copy that was both older than any existing copy of the Qur'an, and contained traces of even earlier variations in the text.
That is, modern scholarship has found evidence the text of the Qur'an is not "eternal" but, like the Bible, has a history. As Carey indicated, this question had been discussed by Muslim scholars centuries ago, but it has all but been forgotten today.
Not surprisingly, perhaps, the Sanaa discovery and modern analysis of it has also been denounced by people who prohibit questions about the status of the sacred text.
In his talk, Carey made the following observation concerning the origins of Islam. The Prophet, Carey remarked, "is said to have received God's word direct, word by word from angels, and scribes recorded them later." Because the Qur'an is said to have come directly from God, believers are told it is "eternal" and not to be questioned or revised.
"In the first few centuries of the Islamic era, Islamic theologians sought to meet the challenge this implied, but during the past 500 years, critical scholarship has declined, leading to strong resistance to modernity."
There are two interconnected issues here.
First is the question of whether the Qur'an has ever been revised and second is the tangled relationship of traditional piety to modernity.
Regarding the latter, the Muslim Council of Britain responded: "Lord Carey appears clearly to be quite frustrated by the fact that the Muslims the world over continue to believe and try to live by the words of God as revealed in the Qur'an to the Prophet Muhammad." Manzoor Mughal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organizations in Leicester, added that "modernity" in Christianity had resulted in hundreds of thousands of people leaving the church.
For Mughal and the Muslim Council, there is no genuine theological dispute to be made with modernity or with modern scholarship. Traditional piety (including Jewish and Christian variants) simply rejects modernity.
For Carey, matters are more complex. At one point, he said that "while Christianity and Judaism had a long history of often painful critical scholarship, Islamic theology was only now being challenged to become more open to examination."
Indeed, the critical and scholarly exchange between and within Christianity and Judaism has been extensive and not always detached. However, the application of textual and archeological scholarship to sacred writings is practically a definition of the modern approach to religious experience, which returns us to the question of revisions of the text of the Qur'an.
During the past 40 years, several scholars, some Muslim, some not, but most of them resident in the West, have raised a number of questions regarding the early Islamic community and the status of the text that was finalized as the Qur'an. All agree the final text was established during the time of the third caliph, Uthman, a generation after the death of the Prophet. Until 1972, no one knew of any "imperfect," which is to say, pre-Uthman, copies. That year, an extensive manuscript collection was found in the Grand Mosque at Sanaa in Yemen a copy that was both older than any existing copy of the Qur'an, and contained traces of even earlier variations in the text.
That is, modern scholarship has found evidence the text of the Qur'an is not "eternal" but, like the Bible, has a history. As Carey indicated, this question had been discussed by Muslim scholars centuries ago, but it has all but been forgotten today.
Not surprisingly, perhaps, the Sanaa discovery and modern analysis of it has also been denounced by people who prohibit questions about the status of the sacred text.
As pointed out before, the farman our Lord mowlana Hazir Imam is the Quran. As Nabi Muhammad (saw) said him self, the Quran is with Ali (as) and Ali (as) is with the Quran, and they wil not get sepperated until the Day of Judgment (see Ibn Hajar by al-Sawaiq al muhriqah, p.123, for example) . And mowlana Ali (as) said him self that "I am the speaking Quran" when the soldiers of Muawia put copies of the Quran on their lenses.
As for the book the Quran, I honest to God don't know if it's complete. But please keep in mind never to claim that the Quran (the book) isn't complete while talking to other Muslims, you'll get in to trouble for that which isn't to productive when trying to build brigdes between sects of Islam.
As for the book the Quran, I honest to God don't know if it's complete. But please keep in mind never to claim that the Quran (the book) isn't complete while talking to other Muslims, you'll get in to trouble for that which isn't to productive when trying to build brigdes between sects of Islam.
Building Bridges
I think we should build bridges from the premise that anyone who accepts the Shahada is a Muslim. Everything else can vary depending upon cultural, historical, geographical, economic and linguistic backgrounds. This is where pluralism comes into play.schatoor wrote:But please keep in mind never to claim that the Quran (the book) isn't complete while talking to other Muslims, you'll get in to trouble for that which isn't to productive when trying to build brigdes between sects of Islam.
Hazar Imam: in detail
Hi all - I am new to Ismailism and I was wondering what we should believe about Hazar Imam doctrinally - Is there an authoritative Ismaili "statement of beliefs" like the Catholic catechism? For example, to what extent should we believe he is infallible - in relation to deeny matters only or in relation to everything (NB the poll on this website)? In relation to Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Aly, how should we regard him - as superior or equivalent to them? What about his standing in comparison with previous prophets? Assuming he is direct communication with Allah, how much do we know about the nature of that communication? Does he dream inspired dreams or does he converse with angels etc? How much has he told us about the nature of it? I am sorry about having so many questions but I think it is important to understand the deen properly. If anyone could answer all or any of my questions, that would be great!
Re: Hazar Imam: in detail
In my opinion the starting point would be to read some of the short articles on Ismailism given in the Library Section under Learn in the site map of this website mentioned on the left of this window. Click Library-> Selected readings. In particular, I would like to suggest that you read the preamble to the constitution which is an authoritative statement about our fundamental beliefs signed by MHI. Also it is important to read the chapter in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah titled: "Islam the Religion of my Ancestors". These you will find in the Selected Readingshikmah786 wrote:Hi all - I am new to Ismailism and I was wondering what we should believe about Hazar Imam doctrinally - Is there an authoritative Ismaili "statement of beliefs" like the Catholic catechism? For example, to what extent should we believe he is infallible - in relation to deeny matters only or in relation to everything (NB the poll on this website)? In relation to Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Aly, how should we regard him - as superior or equivalent to them? What about his standing in comparison with previous prophets? Assuming he is direct communication with Allah, how much do we know about the nature of that communication? Does he dream inspired dreams or does he converse with angels etc? How much has he told us about the nature of it? I am sorry about having so many questions but I think it is important to understand the deen properly. If anyone could answer all or any of my questions, that would be great!
section with many other articles. I hope this helps.
"What about his standing in comparison with previous prophets? Assuming he is direct communication with Allah, how much do we know about the nature of that communication? Does he dream inspired dreams or does he converse with angels etc? How much has he told us about the nature of it?"
- the Imam has no communication with Angels or God. Rather, the Imam possess Divine Light or Divine Knowledge. He guides the community based on this sacred Knowledge that he possesses.
This Divine Light/Knowledge has been spiritually handed down in direct descent from Hazrat Ali at the time of the Holy Prophet.
- the Imam has no communication with Angels or God. Rather, the Imam possess Divine Light or Divine Knowledge. He guides the community based on this sacred Knowledge that he possesses.
This Divine Light/Knowledge has been spiritually handed down in direct descent from Hazrat Ali at the time of the Holy Prophet.
I would say that there is communication but He does not take guidance from them. In Ginans there is mention about Him coming along with the angels. And what about his role as an inteccessor (Shafat). Doesn't it involve a kind of communication with God.kandani wrote: - the Imam has no communication with Angels or God. Rather, the Imam possess Divine Light or Divine Knowledge. He guides the community based on this sacred Knowledge that he possesses.
When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad. Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement
This seems a very strange thing to say - how can the Imam (subordinate to Allah) not take guidance from him? Did Muhammad (s) and Ali take guidance from Allah? Of course they did! Allah mentions on numerous occasions in the Quran that He alone is the one who grants guidance - to Prophets, Imams and simple people like me too!kmaherali wrote:I would say that there is communication but He does not take guidance from them.kandani wrote: - the Imam has no communication with Angels or God. Rather, the Imam possess Divine Light or Divine Knowledge. He guides the community based on this sacred Knowledge that he possesses.
In terms of the 'completeness' of the Quran, Muhammad (s) taught his companions the Quran as and when it was revealed to him by the Angel Jibreel. Being illiterate, he taught them (and of course his cousin Ali) orally - "Quran" in Arabic literally means "the recitation". It was Allah's plan that the Arabic of 1400 years ago was at the highest peak of eloquence and it was a society in which it would be quite normal for ordinary people to quote great, lengthy poetry from memory. It was the linguistic brilliance of the Quran that convinced the greatest poets of the age that this must be the word of Allah. Linguistic majesty in an oral tradition of poetry. This is the context of Quranic revelation and, as Islam grew in the years of Prophethood, thousands of people committed the Quran to memory and that number is today in the millions. That is the beauty of the Quran compared with any other holy text from any other religion - if all the copies of the Quran were dumped into the sea, then one would merely need to gather five "huffaz" together (those who have memorised, lit. preserved the Quran), and one could commit a copy to writing within a few hours. This oral tradition is the mechanism chosen by Allah for the preservation of His Word. This is how he has fulfilled (and continues to fulfil) his promise concerning the Quran, that "We will assuredly Guard it from corruption" (15:9).
For a fascinating and erudite refutation of the 'challenges' posed to the Muslim view that the Quran is pristine as it appears today (this being the position of the itha ashari shias, MHI (as quoted recently), and sunnis), see M M Al-Azami, The History of the Quranic Text. Available at Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 50-9950851
As Ismailis, taking the words of MHI, we should not take the parochial view and ignore the words that Allah himself chose to guide mankind 1400 years ago. We are lucky to have a modern-day guide, but we should also have an open mind and an open heart in order to try and experience for ourselves the profound impact the direct, unadulterated, chosen words of Allah - in the original - had on the people of Mecca 1400 years ago, and continue to have to this day.
Before going into details on this issue, I would like to know what is your understanding of prophethood and Imamat. Do you consider prophets and Imams as humanbeings like me and you?hikmah786 wrote: This seems a very strange thing to say - how can the Imam (subordinate to Allah) not take guidance from him? Did Muhammad (s) and Ali take guidance from Allah? Of course they did! Allah mentions on numerous occasions in the Quran that He alone is the one who grants guidance - to Prophets, Imams and simple people like me too!
Are you aware that there are 2 aspects to this issue the Zaheri and the Batini. Our views may sound strange to you if you consider this matter from the Zaheri point of view but they are true from the Batini point of view.
Whilst not human beings like me and you, they are human beings nevertheless. This is what Allah says in the Quran:Before going into details on this issue, I would like to know what is your understanding of prophethood and Imamat. Do you consider prophets and Imams as humanbeings like me and you?
3:144 Muhammad is no more than an apostle (rasool): many were the apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels?
17:94 What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger."
That the messengers and prophets were human beings (albeit special ones) is one of the blessings of prophethood. If the messengers had been angels - free from human needs (food, rest, etc) - their example would have been impossible for people to emulate. That they are human beings, who ate, slept, married and fought in battle, showed people that the way of life Allah wants us to lead is indeed possible.
And as for the distinction between zahiri and batini, its importance ought not to be exaggerated. Whatever is zahir (outward) is affected by whatever is batin (on the inside) and vice versa. If I have a high level of iman (the inward), then the natural consequence of that will be manifested in good (outward) actions. If I perform outward actions with no iman, then they will be of no benefit to me.
For example, Muhammad (s) - along with all Muslims from all creeds - fasted in the month of Ramadan. The period of physical, zahiri, fasting was accompanied by batini 'fasting' i.e. preoccupying oneself and one's thoughts with Allah and zikr even more than usual. As we can learn from the prophetic example, it is not sufficient to merely abstain from food whilst continuing to gossip and backbite and lie. Similarly it is not sufficient to preoccupy oneself with zikr and not fast - this is not the way of the prophets. The outward and the inward go hand in hand, and to place too great an emphasis on one over the other results in imbalance.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are one .
By terming that they were mortal people like me and you you are ignoring many hadiths,Quranic verses and Farmans and Ginans
Hazrat Muhammad said I and Ali are from same DIVINE LIGHT.
Hazrat Muhammad said face of Ali is face of God.
Ke jeeray bhai chaand na hota sooraj na hota tyaree muhammad naam arsh leekhaya
ke jeeray bhai muhaamad ilahi aad dhani chhe tamee deel mahe karo veechar
By terming that they were mortal people like me and you you are ignoring many hadiths,Quranic verses and Farmans and Ginans
Hazrat Muhammad said I and Ali are from same DIVINE LIGHT.
Hazrat Muhammad said face of Ali is face of God.
Ke jeeray bhai chaand na hota sooraj na hota tyaree muhammad naam arsh leekhaya
ke jeeray bhai muhaamad ilahi aad dhani chhe tamee deel mahe karo veechar
Status of Prophet
Hikmah786, Salaam Alaykum
Your recent post has raised several issues that need to be clarified. First of all it must be realised that Islam is pluralistic with respect to the interpretation of faith. Within this perspective, a Muslim is anyone who professes Shahada. Ours is a Shia interpretation which emphasises the esotric or the batini aspect of faith. This has a bearing upon our understanding of faith which is different than that of the mainsteam Sunni Islam. The following is our understanding in my opinion.
Status of Prophets and Imams
===================
While from the zaheri perspective, prophets need to act and behave as ordinary human beings and set an example to others as pointed out by you correctly with appropriate references from the Quran, from the Batini point of view there are verses that allude to his super human or Divine nature. For example in the beginning of 4th part of our Dua, we allude to his role as an intercessor i.e. "Those who give you allegiance give it but to Allah". How could allegiance to a human being equate to allegiance to Allah unless the human being under consideration was himself Divine. In other verses of the Quran there is mention of "Obey God and obey His messenger". Why would Allah command you to obey an ordinary human being unless there was something extra ordinary about him?
From the esoteric perspective, the institution of prophethood is eternal as alluded in the following verse of the Ginan "Sab Gat Saami Maaro Bhar Pur Bethaa"
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
This brings me back to your original feeling of strangeness of the fact that the Imams did not need to be guided by anyone. Consider the following statements.
"We have vested everything worthwhile in the manifest Imam" (2nd Part of Dua)
"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance, and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout." (Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah).
"His Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction." (Farman MHI, 13th Dec , 1964)
Would such an Imam need guidance from anywhere?
The Significance of the Quran
===================
While there has been a need to have basic knowledge and understanding of the Quran in our tradition recently, mainly due to the need to interact with other interpretations within Islam and build bridges with them, it has never been of great importance in our tradition. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah had told us that the Ginans are a tafsir of the Quran par excellance and in that sense there has never been a need to know the Quran. We have always considered the Ginans as more reliable than the Quran. As a matter of fact as late as in the 1950's and indeed 1960s very few Ismailis knew the contents of the Quran. That did not prevent them from being Muslims.
Zaher and the Batin
=============
It must be realised that according to Shia interpretation of Islam, the principle of Walaya (allegiance and obediance to the Imam) is the foremost. It supercedes all others including fasting in the month of Islam. Indeed there have been times during our history when the Sharia was abrogated in its entirety and yet we are still Muslims today! As Batinis, we attach greater significance to the intention behind the fast as opposed to the actual form of the fast. That kind of fasting is not restricted only during the month of Ramadhan, but it happens through out the year.
Your recent post has raised several issues that need to be clarified. First of all it must be realised that Islam is pluralistic with respect to the interpretation of faith. Within this perspective, a Muslim is anyone who professes Shahada. Ours is a Shia interpretation which emphasises the esotric or the batini aspect of faith. This has a bearing upon our understanding of faith which is different than that of the mainsteam Sunni Islam. The following is our understanding in my opinion.
Status of Prophets and Imams
===================
While from the zaheri perspective, prophets need to act and behave as ordinary human beings and set an example to others as pointed out by you correctly with appropriate references from the Quran, from the Batini point of view there are verses that allude to his super human or Divine nature. For example in the beginning of 4th part of our Dua, we allude to his role as an intercessor i.e. "Those who give you allegiance give it but to Allah". How could allegiance to a human being equate to allegiance to Allah unless the human being under consideration was himself Divine. In other verses of the Quran there is mention of "Obey God and obey His messenger". Why would Allah command you to obey an ordinary human being unless there was something extra ordinary about him?
From the esoteric perspective, the institution of prophethood is eternal as alluded in the following verse of the Ginan "Sab Gat Saami Maaro Bhar Pur Bethaa"
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
This brings me back to your original feeling of strangeness of the fact that the Imams did not need to be guided by anyone. Consider the following statements.
"We have vested everything worthwhile in the manifest Imam" (2nd Part of Dua)
"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance, and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout." (Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah).
"His Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction." (Farman MHI, 13th Dec , 1964)
Would such an Imam need guidance from anywhere?
The Significance of the Quran
===================
While there has been a need to have basic knowledge and understanding of the Quran in our tradition recently, mainly due to the need to interact with other interpretations within Islam and build bridges with them, it has never been of great importance in our tradition. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah had told us that the Ginans are a tafsir of the Quran par excellance and in that sense there has never been a need to know the Quran. We have always considered the Ginans as more reliable than the Quran. As a matter of fact as late as in the 1950's and indeed 1960s very few Ismailis knew the contents of the Quran. That did not prevent them from being Muslims.
Zaher and the Batin
=============
It must be realised that according to Shia interpretation of Islam, the principle of Walaya (allegiance and obediance to the Imam) is the foremost. It supercedes all others including fasting in the month of Islam. Indeed there have been times during our history when the Sharia was abrogated in its entirety and yet we are still Muslims today! As Batinis, we attach greater significance to the intention behind the fast as opposed to the actual form of the fast. That kind of fasting is not restricted only during the month of Ramadhan, but it happens through out the year.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Even if Ginans and Farmans are not considered we can not say Muhammad [PBUH] and Ali [A.S] were mortal humans like other as Prophet Muhammad himself said that "My Noor was with every Prophet" and "Ali was in batin with every Prophet"
In book entitled "tareekh ka safar" it is that Once Jibrail ask Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] that whats your age? Prophet [PBUH] said whats your age? Jibrail said there is a star which Shines after every 70,000 years and I have seen it 70,000 times.Prophet Muhammad Said I am that Star.
Hazrat Salman Farsi said that I heard the messenger of Allah saying I myself and Ali were one Light of Allah 14000 years before He created Adam. When Allah created Adam He divided Light into two parts One part is Me and one part Ali.
In book entitled "tareekh ka safar" it is that Once Jibrail ask Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] that whats your age? Prophet [PBUH] said whats your age? Jibrail said there is a star which Shines after every 70,000 years and I have seen it 70,000 times.Prophet Muhammad Said I am that Star.
Hazrat Salman Farsi said that I heard the messenger of Allah saying I myself and Ali were one Light of Allah 14000 years before He created Adam. When Allah created Adam He divided Light into two parts One part is Me and one part Ali.
Allah
YAM Hikma786,
I have a question for you
Does Allah occupy every atom of your body?
OK I have a few more
Did Allah create your mind?
Does the prescence of Allah makeup each and every single part of every thought you have?
Please explain to me when you seperated from Allah?
If you never seperated from him as he is the cause of our existence. How close to Allah are you?
In my opinion the only facet of creation where we are seperate from Allah, is in our imagination.
YAM
Shams
I have a question for you
Does Allah occupy every atom of your body?
OK I have a few more
Did Allah create your mind?
Does the prescence of Allah makeup each and every single part of every thought you have?
Please explain to me when you seperated from Allah?
If you never seperated from him as he is the cause of our existence. How close to Allah are you?
In my opinion the only facet of creation where we are seperate from Allah, is in our imagination.
YAM
Shams