Is it allowed to have a sex before marriage?

fara · Post by **fara** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:06 pm

Dear readers, I am sorry for asking such question but I wonder is it allowed to have a sex before marriage for Ismaili girls? If yes, why and if no why?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:36 pm

There are two related threads in this forum at:

Current Issues -> Sex before Marriage
Current Issues _> Solution to Sexual Problems

You may want to go there.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:54 pm

fara wrote:Dear readers, I am sorry for asking such question but I wonder is it allowed to have a sex before marriage for Ismaili girls? If yes, why and if no why?

As-salam alaikum and YA ALI MADAD

According to Islam and Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, it is forbidding to have sex before marriage. One to have sex is with their wife and husband which is Halal and pure in the name of Allah. On the other hand, if you have sex before marriage, it is sin and Haram then you will go to HELL in next world and burn with eternal FIRE; therefore, my spiritual sisters and brothers please be aware of this and do not make this mistake in future. Khudavan Mowlana Shah Mustansir Billah II (Peace Be up him and his Ahl al-Bayt ) said in one of his book "Pi'r Pandi'ya'te' Jawa'n mardi" 'O, believers, O, pious ones! The one who casts coveting eyes on other peoples`s wives, is as if he casts coveting eyes upon his own mother and sister. We have said what whoever casts a coveting and evil eye upon any other`s wife, it is as if he does the same to his own mother or sister. Surely, another man`s wife is like ones mother or sister." (page, 14)

Also, Our beloved Imam said for women; 'O, believers, O, dear ones! If a girl looks upon an outsider covetingly, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or her brother. The man who is not related to her should be to her like father or brother. She should not feel anything special (when looking at him), as otherwise that foolish girl will be far from that right path, commanded by God. She will get into trouble, and will not fulfill her (spiritual) aim. For this reason if she should look covetingly upon any men, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or brother. God will look angrily upon such a woman, and that woman will get into trouble, she will be reduced to begging, her mind will be obscured, and the mirror of her heart will become rusty, she will never achieve happiness, but will always be distressed, miserable and despicable in the eyes of the people, being in need of bread and clothing. This means that during the whole of her life she will experience sadness. She will always experience difficulties in her work, because she is distressed in this world, warried, unsettled, and restless. In the hereafter her place will be in HELL-FIRE. Such is the result of wrong actions,-God save us from this, and from acting wrongly. (page 15, and the book translated by Professor W. Ivanow)

So, if anyone who have dangerous egoism he / she may need to get marry.....

A Quotation from Khudavan Mowlana Ali: She world is like a serpent, so soft to touch, but so full of lethal poison. Unwise people are allured by it and drawn towards it, and wise men avoid it and keep away from its poisonous effects.

Mehreen1221 · Post by **Mehreen1221** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:29 am

Dear fara,
Yes, it is definitely allowed to have sex as much and as long you want with who ever you want as long as it is mutually consensual. Don’t listen to these dumb asses. Since they can't get it, they don't want you to either and scare you with all that blah blah…in bad English, like you're a 9 year old...I swear to God. Trust me, sex is good, it gets your demons out of you and get you purified and peaceful...closer to the humanity and universal love. Getting married is just a social custom and is not pacifically about sex or vice versa…it boggles my mind why some people attach sex and marriage implicitly.

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:12 am

Mehreen1221 wrote:Dear fara,
Yes, it is definitely allowed to have sex as much and as long you want with who ever you want as long as it is mutually consensual. Don’t listen to these dumb asses. Since they can't get it, they don't want you to either and scare you with all that blah blah…in bad English, like you're a 9 year old...I swear to God. Trust me, sex is good, it gets your demons out of you and get you purified and peaceful...closer to the humanity and universal love. Getting married is just a social custom and is not pacifically about sex or vice versa…it boggles my mind why some people attach sex and marriage implicitly.

Mehreen,

I totally refuse to agree with you!!!

I have come accross many of your posts, and its a shame that one of our Ismaili brother/sister has such a mindset, unless you aren't, then that would explain.

You have a very wiered idiology, Mehreen. According to you its ok to have sex whenever you want with whoever you want, correct?

Then let me ask you this. What would be the difference between you and an animal? Animals too, they can/want to have sex with whoever they want, whenever they want be it their own mother or sibelings. Think about it. That's what differenciates us from animals. We have values, rights and rituals which needs to be respected and exercised. That's what makes us human.

I understand that having sex feels good and makes you calm and peacefull, BUT when its done with the right person and at the right time, don't forget that.

fara · Post by **fara** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:18 pm

Dear Alamut, Thanks for your advices. i do appreciate them, but what is my problem I ca say you openly that I had this relationship decisively and now i cannot bring my past back. I am very regular in my religious practice but this is the only thing which bothers me alltimes. I am really feeling bad when i have heard Mawla's words regarding it. I do not know whehter it is sin or not. Please give me the exact information where did Mawla said that. Who is Ivanov? How much is his source reliable? Plz help me. Sorry but I have to be open, no any other way.

From_Alamut wrote:
fara wrote:Dear readers, I am sorry for asking such question but I wonder is it allowed to have a sex before marriage for Ismaili girls? If yes, why and if no why?
 As-salam alaikum and YA ALI MADAD According to Islam and Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, it is forbidding to have sex before marriage. one to have sex is with their wife and husband which is Halal and pure in the name of Allah. on the other hand, if you have sex before marriage, it is sin and Haram then you will go to HELL in next world and burn with eternal FIRE; therefore, my spiritual sisters and brothers please be aware of this and do not make this mistake in future. Khudavan Mowlana Shah Mustansir Billah II (Peace Be up him and his Ahl al-Bayt ) said in one of his book "Pi'r Pandi'ya'te' Jawa'n mardi" 'O, believers, O, pious ones! The one who casts coveting eyes on other peoples`s wives, is as if he casts coveting eyes upon his own mother and sister. We have said what whoever casts a coveting and evil eye upon any other`s wife, it is as if he does the same to his own mother or sister. Surely, another man`s wife is like ones mother or sister." (page, 14) Also, Our beloved Imam said for women; 'O, believers, O, dear ones! If a girl looks upon an outsider covetingly, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or her brother. The man who is not related to her should be to her like father or brother. She should not feel anything special (when looking at him), as otherwise that foolish girl will be far from that right path, commanded by God. She will get into trouble, and will not fulfill her (spiritual) aim. For this reason if she should look covetingly upon any men, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or brother. God will look angrily upon such a woman, and that woman will get into trouble, she will be reduced to begging, her mind will be obscured, and the mirror of her heart will become rusty, she will never achieve happiness, but will always be distressed, miserable and despicable in the eyes of the people, being in need of bread and clothing. This means that during the whole of her life she will experience sadness. She will always experience difficulties in her work, because she is distressed in this world, warried, unsettled, and restless. In the hereafter her place will be in HELL-FIRE. Such is the result of wrong actions,-God save us from this, and from acting wrongly. (page 15, and the book translated by Professor W. Ivanow) So, if anyone who have dangerous egoism he / she may need to get marry..... A Quotation from Khudavan Mowlana Ali: She world is like a serpent, so soft to touch, but so full of lethal poison. Unwise people are allured by it and drawn towards it, and wise men avoid it and keep away from its poisonous effects.

Mehreen1221 · Post by **Mehreen1221** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:52 am

Harooon,

You are refusing to disagree with me like I have a gun on your head or twisting your arm...LOL

Well, first of all, what in this god damned world does anybody's mindset on this matter have to do with being Ismaili or not. That is pure bigotry, and prejudice against non-Ismailies and, for sometime, I have been noticing that it is prevailing to some extent and it is alarming.

Secondly, why the fcuk everyone who responds to my posts in this blog mind blowingly assumes that I am suggesting to have sex with animals, siblings and dead people...ohmigod, either they are having some sexual misbehavioral issues that they have to be treated with or they are just not open minded or competent enough to interpret literary terms and their general mainstream meanings. I guess, when I say sex is ok with whomever, whenever and as much as one wants, I am sorta protesting against the very conservative and Shariati environment of this blog and the term "consensual" should pretty much remove this gutter off of your mind. if not, then may God help you.

and please, don't bring in the discussion about the differences between other animals and human beings...values, rights, and rituals my ass...I think, humans are just too arrogant and have been totally misled with this idea. Nowadays, the humanity of these humans is at such a low point that I can't find words to describe my feelings for it. I live in Ottawa valley and own a very loyal Siberian husky and live around other pets and animals. I look at these animals, such as squirrels and bees; they participate in a very productive and organized manner and do not fcuk up nature and never seem to fight with each other. These animals have more Godly attributes than people I happen to know, like my relative’s and friends or neighbors, most of them are selfish, frauds, hypocrites ad lazy bums. I think humans can either rise up to the God or fall in the abyss of Satanism that they can be worse than animals we humans know as.

and of course, one would want to be a sexual partner with someone he/she likes and finds sexually attractive to and so forth and that's how that person will the right person. So, where did this "marriage" come from? well, let's just say that it is someone's preference to get married with compatible sexual partner, then it is even more wise to test the temp of sexual waters before sailing in the ship of marriage to reduce the chances of wrecking up the marriage afterwards.. eh?

And right time? You mean, right age? well, I guess that would be whenever your mind and body gets sexually active and that can vary from person to person...or should I say human to human...since you are so up for so called Humans.

Bottom line is that sexual behavior and attitude should be under a broader umbrella of common senses and knowledge of humanity and not pacifically guided by religion, that includes physical and mental health issues, elementary ethics and awareness of basic social rights and duties of/for other people…etc.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:38 am

Mehreen1221 wrote: Bottom line is that sexual behavior and attitude should be under a broader umbrella of common senses and knowledge of humanity and not pacifically guided by religion, that includes physical and mental health issues, elementary ethics and awareness of basic social rights and duties of/for other people…etc.

We are all here to grow. We can grow through wisdom from our time tested traditions or learn the hard way. The choice is ours. MHI in one of his speeches said:

"We must acknowledge that the world is changing, but in so doing we must realize that there are still many lessons to be drawn from the past."

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:09 pm

Mehreen,

You got pissed so easily! What's the matter!?!?

Mehreen1221 wrote:Harooon,
Secondly, why the fcuk everyone who responds to my posts in this blog mind blowingly assumes that I am suggesting to have sex with animals, siblings and dead people...ohmigod,not...

You really need to grow up, and stop using those "F" words like a high school kid. May be you are one. Can't really tell from behind a computer.

Let me tell you a joke, kiddo. And hopefully if you are mature enough, you will get the point.

A kid stole a candy. When his dad showed up, the kid told his father, "Dad! I didn't eat the candy; I swear!!!"

No one's assuming anything about you. You simply refelect your personality by expressing your stoopid beliefs.

Mehreen1221 wrote: That is pure bigotry, and prejudice against non-Ismailies and, for sometime, I have been noticing that it is prevailing to some extent and it is alarming.

I don't know what you are talking about.

Mehreen1221 wrote: and please, don't bring in the discussion about the differences between other animals and human beings...values, rights, and rituals my ass...I think, humans are just too arrogant and have been totally misled with this idea. Nowadays, the humanity of these humans is at such a low point that I can't find words to describe my feelings for it. But anyways, like I said earlier, I ain't gonna discuss on it here.

If you are truely an Ismaili, then you should believe in MHI's Farmans which he repeatedly emphasizes on preserving the culture where we all came from. That includes our values. He also emphasize to be regular at attending JK, where we excersize our rights and rituals and relgious ceremonies.

So, unless you aren't an Ismaili--and coming here (to This forum) to just spread your stoopid and non-sense idiology--then I don't have any thing else to argue.

Mehreen1221 wrote: and of course, one would want to be a sexual partner with someone he/she likes and finds sexually attractive to and so forth and that's how that person will the right person. So, where did this "marriage" come from? well, let's just say that it is someone's preference to get married with compatible sexual partner, then it is even more wise to test the temp of sexual waters before sailing in the ship of marriage to reduce the chances of wrecking up the marriage afterwards.. eh?

Here we go again... Another one of your non-sense idea. So, I must think that in your family every one keeps trying to have sex with random people until they find a "compatible" person and then if they chose then get married. or don't. You really are dumber then you sounded.

Mehreen1221 wrote: Bottom line is that sexual behavior and attitude should be under a broader umbrella of common senses and knowledge of humanity and not pacifically guided by religion, that includes physical and mental health issues, elementary ethics and awareness of basic social rights and duties of/for other people…etc.

You don't sound much of a relegious person!! I think you would agree.

Then what you believe, is all based on you ignorance and lack of understanding about relegion. On the one hand, you talk about common sense, on the other hand you talk about sleeping with random people to find your "compatible" partner. Bravo!

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:26 pm

fara wrote:Dear Alamut, Thanks for your advices. i do appreciate them, but what is my problem I ca say you openly that I had this relationship decisively and now i cannot bring my past back. I am very regular in my religious practice but this is the only thing which bothers me alltimes. I am really feeling bad when i have heard Mawla's words regarding it. I do not know whehter it is sin or not. Please give me the exact information where did Mawla said that. Who is Ivanov? How much is his source reliable? Plz help me. Sorry but I have to be open, no any other way. 
From_Alamut wrote:
fara wrote:Dear readers, I am sorry for asking such question but I wonder is it allowed to have a sex before marriage for Ismaili girls? If yes, why and if no why?
 As-salam alaikum and YA ALI MADAD According to Islam and Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, it is forbidding to have sex before marriage. one to have sex is with their wife and husband which is Halal and pure in the name of Allah. on the other hand, if you have sex before marriage, it is sin and Haram then you will go to HELL in next world and burn with eternal FIRE; therefore, my spiritual sisters and brothers please be aware of this and do not make this mistake in future. Khudavan Mowlana Shah Mustansir Billah II (Peace Be up him and his Ahl al-Bayt ) said in one of his book "Pi'r Pandi'ya'te' Jawa'n mardi" 'O, believers, O, pious ones! The one who casts coveting eyes on other peoples`s wives, is as if he casts coveting eyes upon his own mother and sister. We have said what whoever casts a coveting and evil eye upon any other`s wife, it is as if he does the same to his own mother or sister. Surely, another man`s wife is like ones mother or sister." (page, 14) Also, Our beloved Imam said for women; 'O, believers, O, dear ones! If a girl looks upon an outsider covetingly, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or her brother. The man who is not related to her should be to her like father or brother. She should not feel anything special (when looking at him), as otherwise that foolish girl will be far from that right path, commanded by God. She will get into trouble, and will not fulfill her (spiritual) aim. For this reason if she should look covetingly upon any men, it is as if she looks in the same way upon her father or brother. God will look angrily upon such a woman, and that woman will get into trouble, she will be reduced to begging, her mind will be obscured, and the mirror of her heart will become rusty, she will never achieve happiness, but will always be distressed, miserable and despicable in the eyes of the people, being in need of bread and clothing. This means that during the whole of her life she will experience sadness. She will always experience difficulties in her work, because she is distressed in this world, warried, unsettled, and restless. In the hereafter her place will be in HELL-FIRE. Such is the result of wrong actions,-God save us from this, and from acting wrongly. (page 15, and the book translated by Professor W. Ivanow) So, if anyone who have dangerous egoism he / she may need to get marry..... A Quotation from Khudavan Mowlana Ali: She world is like a serpent, so soft to touch, but so full of lethal poison. Unwise people are allured by it and drawn towards it, and wise men avoid it and keep away from its poisonous effects.

The best thing for you to do is follow the Imam's farmans. From what i posted above from Imam Mustasiribillah (as), it is clear that this is something that is forbidden in our religion. You can follow individual opinion on this website all you like but the matter is clear from the authority in our religion. The book i quoted this from is called 'Pandiyate Javan Mardi' by one of our Imams; its a collection of his sayings/farmans collected by one of his murids and was translated by a russian orientalist (Ivanov) sometime ago. Another thing you can also do is reduce the timeless truths, especially regarding religious (and therefore spiritual) matters from the mouth of our Imams to "it was valid only at that time" nonsense like modern Ismailis (especially from the Khoja jamat) tend to do, and not follow up on it. Its even shocking to me you ask such a question when it is something that is clearly forbidden in Islam; so you don't need to ask if its forbidden in Ismailism, or does the Imam make halal what God (the Exalted) makes haram? I hope you will choose the right way.

As for Mehreen1221, i will not even saying anything as he is probably an apostate and it would therefore be futile to try and bring him anything from the commands of the Imams.

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Mehreen1221 · Post by **Mehreen1221** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:31 am

I am not pissed off here...I'm just a little surprised and disappointed and I apologize for a bit of foul language, it's just the style, may be not so good, but not necessarily from heart. I should've realized the sensitivity of members of this blog. That is my mistake and will be more careful on that.

beside that, we can disagree with each other's ideas as much as we want and call each other stoopid and whatnot...it will be simply just your ideas against mine because it depends on how, where and which environment we are raised in and what are the values and importance of different things are in each individual's life and how we interpret authoritative guidance according to our own intellectual level and so forth...and that's why people have so much division in this world from the global level to the family level...on almost every issue.

Again, you took me wrong. I'm not telling Fara to go ahead and put an ad in the newspaper or online like, "LOOKING FOR A CUTE SEXUAL PARTNER..." and have a men's line outside her home and she starts calling, NEXT! then...Bing Bang Bong...NEXT!...Bing Bang Bong...NEXT!...until she finds somebody she really likes and gets satisfied with...I am not telling her to sleep around randomly, either...I meant just go with your common worldly morals, senses and customs she is in. if she knows that and if not, the religion isn’t gonna help her much... I mean, you know, just like in typical situations, finding someone and start the relationship and see how it goes and so forth...

I don't see how sexuality is related to Jamat Khana attendance and/or practice of religious activities and stuff. And where are you from? Where am I or she is from? Different places and different cultures...and different cultures have different sexual attitudes which evolve or don't evolve for good or worse by time and environment. so it ain't like "One size fits all" kinda deal. it can get very dynamic. Anyways, hell with this bullshit...I don't care much for it...I just believe in more sexual freedom with wisdom than others.

lastly, I think, when you say that if someone has certain mindset, whether good or bad, because he/she is Ismaili or not Ismaili that is stereotypical and discriminatory. Ask anyone else. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has said that, before God, if someone is better than the other person is due to nothing but his/her character only. Sometimes, I find some Ismailies tend to be mistakenly arrogant about them selves just because who they are and are out of line from common universal values and judge others without the very same guidance that they have...

Someone from Alamut, FYI, I am a girl and I couldn't understand most of your post because you do too much ...

Post by **Admin** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:47 am

We have allowed this sensitive subject but please all of you try to have a decent language and not to be too judgmental.

Please agree to disagree in a civilized manner and respect each other's views.

respecting the right of a person to have a different opinion does not mean you have to agree with him!

And there is already a similar thread under : http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 68&start=0

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