A sunni in Jamat Khana
A sunni in Jamat Khana
Salam alikoum/ya ali madat. I am a sunni woman. I know that as a sunni I am not allowed in jamat khana, and I respect this. However, if I marry an ismaili man, and have with him children that I want to be raised with ismaili AND sunni "traditions" if I may say (as, for me, the basics, this is what we have to focus on, what brings us together : the pillars, the quran ..), would I still not be allowed in jamat khana? I pray, fast, eat hallal, do not drink, try hard to be as close as I can to what I think is a good muslim, and I am ready to have children raised with acknowledgment of ismailism ... would I still not be allowed in jamat khana? I do not plan to convert, at all, but I would find it odd that my children and their father go to khana, and that I would have to stay behind. any answer, explanations or similar experiences stories would help, a lot - Thanks and salam
Last edited by Ibtissam on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
This issue has been discussed under:
Current Issues --> Right to Admission in JK
You may want to go there.
Also recently there was an incident involving an encounter of a non-Ismaili spouse of an Ismaili who is also a Sunni and her children are Ismailis with Hazar Imam during his Golden Jubliee visit to the UK. She gave a very lengthy account of her experience and it is posted under the Golden Jubilee Visits --> UK Didar dates, events and testimonies and it is on the last page. I am sure it will be of interest to you. Below are the first two paragraphs.
"I, myself was born a Sunni Muslim and have been married to a Shia Ismaili man for over nine years. We both felt that there was no great need for me to adopt the Ismaili faith as being a Muslim there wouldn’t be a real disruption or clash in our beliefs. We have two children (who thanks to my brother-in-law!) were brought into the Ismaili faith. The children would now and again along with my husband attend Jamatkhane. I, myself would attend on big occasions but always felt a little barrier. I wasn’t able to be with my family in the prayer hall so I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb when I was sat waiting downstairs on my own! With work commitments, and the fact that we lived so far away from Jamatkhane, we didn’t attend regularly so in a sense it was not a main part of our life.
Golden Jubilee celebrations were going to be taking place in London later in the year and months before all I knew was that we would be attending and one day during that week Hazar Imam would be attending. I will be honest with you at this stage to me it was a formality to be there. Again I knew that I would be segregated and my duty was to make sure that my husband and children had a great experience. I was happy for my husband as he had explained what a massive occasion this was for Ismaili’s. I was happy for him but I didn’t think anything else of it"
Current Issues --> Right to Admission in JK
You may want to go there.
Also recently there was an incident involving an encounter of a non-Ismaili spouse of an Ismaili who is also a Sunni and her children are Ismailis with Hazar Imam during his Golden Jubliee visit to the UK. She gave a very lengthy account of her experience and it is posted under the Golden Jubilee Visits --> UK Didar dates, events and testimonies and it is on the last page. I am sure it will be of interest to you. Below are the first two paragraphs.
"I, myself was born a Sunni Muslim and have been married to a Shia Ismaili man for over nine years. We both felt that there was no great need for me to adopt the Ismaili faith as being a Muslim there wouldn’t be a real disruption or clash in our beliefs. We have two children (who thanks to my brother-in-law!) were brought into the Ismaili faith. The children would now and again along with my husband attend Jamatkhane. I, myself would attend on big occasions but always felt a little barrier. I wasn’t able to be with my family in the prayer hall so I kind of stuck out like a sore thumb when I was sat waiting downstairs on my own! With work commitments, and the fact that we lived so far away from Jamatkhane, we didn’t attend regularly so in a sense it was not a main part of our life.
Golden Jubilee celebrations were going to be taking place in London later in the year and months before all I knew was that we would be attending and one day during that week Hazar Imam would be attending. I will be honest with you at this stage to me it was a formality to be there. Again I knew that I would be segregated and my duty was to make sure that my husband and children had a great experience. I was happy for my husband as he had explained what a massive occasion this was for Ismaili’s. I was happy for him but I didn’t think anything else of it"
Thanks for your answer. I already checked other threads in this forum about the same subject, but all mainly deal with non ismaili-non muslim. Besides, the article you suggested is pretty interesting and touching, but gives a very simple message : forget about unity and happiness in your family if you don't convert. That is what I already understood while reading some of the posts i could find in this website, but was yet waiting for different kind of answers. But well ... I guess that if you know the kind of answer you are waiting for, then it is not worth asking ..
-
haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
Ibtissam wrote:maybe a silly and naive question but is there a kind of board or something in each jk that would somehow analyses situations and make some decisions at their level for this kind of cases, or is it a common rule, that is unchangeable?
Ibtisam,
First you should know that prayer hall in JK is ONLY for ismailis. What you are looking for is a convintion for you. There's no rules and regulations set at each JK level regarding these types of topics.
Let me ask you this, first. If you don't have any intention of converting to Ismaili, which you stated very strongly in your original post, then why would you want to enter prayer hall in JK? You don't need to be there.
When we are in JK, the relationship is purly between murid and murshid. I would suggest you to do alittle research, before demading such changes, which maybe valid to you only.
For example, when you are drinking water from a glass, and something dirty falls inside your glass, do you just remove the dirt from your glass and continue to drink from it? or you simply throw the glass of water and take another fresh glass of water?
Same is true when a non-ismaili is present in JK. And please don't interpreted as this analogy as dirt and water. I just couldn't find a good example to make my point.
You maybe correct that we all believe in pillars of Islam and Qura'an. No doubt about that. But still a non-ismaili is not aware of our ritual and rites and their significance and meanings.
Haroon.
Dear Ibtissam
Really appreciate your conern about the type of question you are asking
.
Before answering your Question, I would like to remind you that because we do have the same prophet i.e. Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H), the final prophet, the Basics and foundations are same and because of that we all are brothers and sisters.
Let me tell you real thing. Everything you see around you (that Non-Ismaili can't goto JK etc.), is happend because of some reasons, We should understand that reason.
As you well known ismailies lives minorities, and have very different interptreation of ISLAM i.e. Batin, the Tariqa of batin can not be understand very quickly but can be understand gradually through in depth analysis of Quranic ayat and guidance of Mursid (as per ismailies), and because of that it can be mis-interpretad by those who doesn't have any background of Esoteric tradtion and those who doesn't know anything about batin tariqa.
This doesn't mean, anybody else is wrong but this means Every body is right in there way but we have different intrepretaion of faith and you have different, both have the different path of a same destination.
MHI in his recent interview has said, "He has the responsibilty of safety of his jamat" (its not axact words but its something like that).
Imagine, If everybody else is allowed to see the tariqa which is different from them, it can really hurt the peace and safety of the jamat. The Kind of control after it would be very difficult; think on those term. We as an Ismaili and as muslims really respects your interpretation of ISLAM but the guidance of Imam and tariqa of imam should not be exposed openly for the safety thats why its not allowed to enter in JK. The reason like I said one and only the different Interpretation can be mis-interepeted which put so many confusion and can lead to some choas and in other words lead to an un-peaceful enviroment.
But I feel the time would come soon Inshallah, when this problem may solve in broader way, thats what I believe
Regards
Razi
Really appreciate your conern about the type of question you are asking
.Before answering your Question, I would like to remind you that because we do have the same prophet i.e. Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H), the final prophet, the Basics and foundations are same and because of that we all are brothers and sisters
.Let me tell you real thing. Everything you see around you (that Non-Ismaili can't goto JK etc.), is happend because of some reasons, We should understand that reason.
As you well known ismailies lives minorities, and have very different interptreation of ISLAM i.e. Batin, the Tariqa of batin can not be understand very quickly but can be understand gradually through in depth analysis of Quranic ayat and guidance of Mursid (as per ismailies), and because of that it can be mis-interpretad by those who doesn't have any background of Esoteric tradtion and those who doesn't know anything about batin tariqa.
This doesn't mean, anybody else is wrong but this means Every body is right in there way but we have different intrepretaion of faith and you have different, both have the different path of a same destination.
MHI in his recent interview has said, "He has the responsibilty of safety of his jamat" (its not axact words but its something like that).
Imagine, If everybody else is allowed to see the tariqa which is different from them, it can really hurt the peace and safety of the jamat. The Kind of control after it would be very difficult; think on those term. We as an Ismaili and as muslims really respects your interpretation of ISLAM but the guidance of Imam and tariqa of imam should not be exposed openly for the safety thats why its not allowed to enter in JK. The reason like I said one and only the different Interpretation can be mis-interepeted which put so many confusion and can lead to some choas and in other words lead to an un-peaceful enviroment.
But I feel the time would come soon Inshallah, when this problem may solve in broader way
, thats what I believeRegards
Razi
Razi,
thanks for the highlights of your answer.
I do understand the difficulties the ismaili community has been through, persecution by other muslim communities and especially sunni. I understand the roots of the current situation. I actually met an ismaili, and the first thing I've done after meeting him is buy a book that would explain me where ismailism come from. My concern is that now that we consider getting married and have children, I am very worried to be excluded. According to him, going to jk is a family event, and children have important "milestones" of their lives happening there. It is still very difficult to me to feel that whatever happens, whatever I believe, I would always be banned from jk.
I indeed do not want to convert. Though, I do not want prevent my kids to get the ismaili heritage of their father, and again, I truly believe that both sunnism and ismailism can be compatible, and even complete each other. Ismailism seem to me very very focused on esoterism (batin, right?) whereas obviously sunnism is much more focused on exoterism. as the sufi said : you need both exoteric and esoteric practice of religion to get closer to Allah SWT. Thus I really believe that our children could benefitiate from both our heritage. But I feel like me being banned from JK would threaten the unity of my family, and it is just hard to accept. I respect it, but I'm not sure I'd accept it easily.
To answer to a question previously asked, if I want to be able to get in JK it is just to not be the one left behind, and to share these moments with my family.
thanks for the highlights of your answer.
I do understand the difficulties the ismaili community has been through, persecution by other muslim communities and especially sunni. I understand the roots of the current situation. I actually met an ismaili, and the first thing I've done after meeting him is buy a book that would explain me where ismailism come from. My concern is that now that we consider getting married and have children, I am very worried to be excluded. According to him, going to jk is a family event, and children have important "milestones" of their lives happening there. It is still very difficult to me to feel that whatever happens, whatever I believe, I would always be banned from jk.
I indeed do not want to convert. Though, I do not want prevent my kids to get the ismaili heritage of their father, and again, I truly believe that both sunnism and ismailism can be compatible, and even complete each other. Ismailism seem to me very very focused on esoterism (batin, right?) whereas obviously sunnism is much more focused on exoterism. as the sufi said : you need both exoteric and esoteric practice of religion to get closer to Allah SWT. Thus I really believe that our children could benefitiate from both our heritage. But I feel like me being banned from JK would threaten the unity of my family, and it is just hard to accept. I respect it, but I'm not sure I'd accept it easily.
To answer to a question previously asked, if I want to be able to get in JK it is just to not be the one left behind, and to share these moments with my family.
Excellent, I am really impressed, what you said.
You are absoultly right I agree on value of exoterism in esoteric tradition, Believe me I have gone through this e.g. I do understand the value of fasting (eat & drinking + batini Fast as this also mention in Quran Surah Bakara ayat 185-187). I do agree with you. It is very important and we can not skip this, but most of us do but we shouldn't (As MHI said in his farman that "We have to understand Quran".
but I just want to ask onething, as you said
Ibtissam said:
In every tradition, we are bound to some Rules and Boundaries and i think we should follow and respect those rules, the Reason and Answer, i have already replied in my previous post. I know it is really hard to accept it but we should respect and follow the rules and as a jamat there is nothing we can do about it but to follow it.
You are absoultly right I agree on value of exoterism in esoteric tradition, Believe me I have gone through this e.g. I do understand the value of fasting (eat & drinking + batini Fast as this also mention in Quran Surah Bakara ayat 185-187). I do agree with you. It is very important and we can not skip this, but most of us do but we shouldn't (As MHI said in his farman that "We have to understand Quran".
but I just want to ask onething, as you said
Ibtissam said:
To be honest, In this circumstance it will not be possible but I want to ask why you want to get in, if you know you can't pray and you can't do any its Rites and Rutals?. There's nothing left except it.if I want to be able to get in JK it is just to not be the one left behind, and to share these moments with my family
In every tradition, we are bound to some Rules and Boundaries and i think we should follow and respect those rules, the Reason and Answer, i have already replied in my previous post. I know it is really hard to accept it but we should respect and follow the rules
and as a jamat there is nothing we can do about it but to follow it.