After my research, I have come to a conclusion that the Light of the Prophecy (possessed by the Prophets) is the same as the Light of the Pir.
Is this correct...or am i missing sometin?
what are everyones thoughts on this?
Holy Prophets and Holy Pirs
Not to generalise.
Khizr was probably Pir, but Prophet Moosa [Moise] was not. Pandiyati JawanMardi of Imam Mustansirbillah II was not a Prophet but was a Pir....
According to a Farman, prophet Muhammad became one with Allah when he died, therefore my conclusion: he became Pir.
Pir Sabzali was not Pir during his lifetime, after he died, he became one with Allah and therefore [my conclusion, this is the reason] we were asked by the Imam to refer to him as "Pir Sabzali."
On the other side, Prophet Muhammad's name was first in the list of authorised Pir in the Old Du'a of Pir Sadardin while Pir Sabzali's name was not...
This will interest you, in Bukhari there is a hadith that is reported by Aisha, one of the wifes of Prophet Muhammad. She said once, what is that prophet saying that that ayat just arrived to him from God? I only saw him talking to this sandal-less shoeless Salman [Farsi]!
So was Salman as Mukhi, the representative of the Imam, or was he Angel Gabriel or was he the Pir, or was he like Khizr... was he all of these, some of these, none of this.. Boy, I do like to confuse people
Nagib
From Confusion, comes Light!
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Khizr was probably Pir, but Prophet Moosa [Moise] was not. Pandiyati JawanMardi of Imam Mustansirbillah II was not a Prophet but was a Pir....
According to a Farman, prophet Muhammad became one with Allah when he died, therefore my conclusion: he became Pir.
Pir Sabzali was not Pir during his lifetime, after he died, he became one with Allah and therefore [my conclusion, this is the reason] we were asked by the Imam to refer to him as "Pir Sabzali."
On the other side, Prophet Muhammad's name was first in the list of authorised Pir in the Old Du'a of Pir Sadardin while Pir Sabzali's name was not...
This will interest you, in Bukhari there is a hadith that is reported by Aisha, one of the wifes of Prophet Muhammad. She said once, what is that prophet saying that that ayat just arrived to him from God? I only saw him talking to this sandal-less shoeless Salman [Farsi]!
So was Salman as Mukhi, the representative of the Imam, or was he Angel Gabriel or was he the Pir, or was he like Khizr... was he all of these, some of these, none of this.. Boy, I do like to confuse people
Nagib
From Confusion, comes Light!
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star_munir
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According to my studies,
i have found that Pir and Imam Mustawda are the same thing.
Also, i find there is a difference between Pir and the Hujjah of Imam.
In that time, Prophet Muhammad was Pir because he was Imam Mustawda, but Salman Farsi was Hujjah of Imam. Prophet Muhammad was first Prophet, but became Pir after Miraj.
Similarly, Moses was first Prophet, but was trained by Khdri, the Hujjah of Imam, and then became Pir.
Jesus was Prophet, but John the Baptist trained him, and he became Pir.
Also, during Imam Ismail's time, Pir as Muhammad bin Ismail, but Hujjah of Imam was Abdullah bin Maymun al-Qaddah, who represented the Imams.
i have found that Pir and Imam Mustawda are the same thing.
Also, i find there is a difference between Pir and the Hujjah of Imam.
In that time, Prophet Muhammad was Pir because he was Imam Mustawda, but Salman Farsi was Hujjah of Imam. Prophet Muhammad was first Prophet, but became Pir after Miraj.
Similarly, Moses was first Prophet, but was trained by Khdri, the Hujjah of Imam, and then became Pir.
Jesus was Prophet, but John the Baptist trained him, and he became Pir.
Also, during Imam Ismail's time, Pir as Muhammad bin Ismail, but Hujjah of Imam was Abdullah bin Maymun al-Qaddah, who represented the Imams.
According to my understanding, Imam Mustawda, Pir and Hujjat-ul Imam are the same.
Not to be mixed up with the 12 hujjats of the 12 Jazirahs [territories] which are only dais and governors, not of the status of the Hujjat al Imam.
For example one Hujjat of Khorassan may be called by respect "Pir" but that would not mean he was Hujjat al Imam, just one of the 12 Hujjats who were with the Hujjat al Imam.
Nagib
Not to be mixed up with the 12 hujjats of the 12 Jazirahs [territories] which are only dais and governors, not of the status of the Hujjat al Imam.
For example one Hujjat of Khorassan may be called by respect "Pir" but that would not mean he was Hujjat al Imam, just one of the 12 Hujjats who were with the Hujjat al Imam.
Nagib
If Hujjatul Imam and Imam Mustawda are indeed the same thing...
how does that explain why Prophet Muhammad was Imam Mustawda, but Salman al-Farsi was Angel Gabriel, and Hujjatul Imam/Bab of Imam.
Also, what about Muhammad bin Ismail's time, where Nooridin was Pir, but Abdullah bin Maymun was Hujjatul Imam.
how does that explain why Prophet Muhammad was Imam Mustawda, but Salman al-Farsi was Angel Gabriel, and Hujjatul Imam/Bab of Imam.
Also, what about Muhammad bin Ismail's time, where Nooridin was Pir, but Abdullah bin Maymun was Hujjatul Imam.
thinkers of the late Fatimid period, associated Imam Mustawda with Prophethood and and Imam Mustaqar with Imama.
Al Muayyad made this clear when he differentiated between Nubuwwa (Prophethood) and Imama (Imamate). The position of Nubuwwa or Risala, he said, is the office of Trustees (istida), while that of the Imama is the office of Permanence (istiqrar).40 The Rasul is he who carries on the message entrusted (istawda'a) to him by God. In other words, he is the one who delivers the Word of God, while the Imam, as it is shown above, is the Word of God itself. It follows that Muhammad is considered by the Ismailis to be inferior to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, the first Imam.
Al Muayyad made this clear when he differentiated between Nubuwwa (Prophethood) and Imama (Imamate). The position of Nubuwwa or Risala, he said, is the office of Trustees (istida), while that of the Imama is the office of Permanence (istiqrar).40 The Rasul is he who carries on the message entrusted (istawda'a) to him by God. In other words, he is the one who delivers the Word of God, while the Imam, as it is shown above, is the Word of God itself. It follows that Muhammad is considered by the Ismailis to be inferior to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, the first Imam.
ALY=MOHAMMED
YA ALY MADAD KANDANI,kandani wrote:thinkers of the late Fatimid period, associated Imam Mustawda with Prophethood and and Imam Mustaqar with Imama.
Al Muayyad made this clear when he differentiated between Nubuwwa (Prophethood) and Imama (Imamate). The position of Nubuwwa or Risala, he said, is the office of Trustees (istida), while that of the Imama is the office of Permanence (istiqrar).40 The Rasul is he who carries on the message entrusted (istawda'a) to him by God. In other words, he is the one who delivers the Word of God, while the Imam, as it is shown above, is the Word of God itself. It follows that Muhammad is considered by the Ismailis to be inferior to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, the first Imam.
TWO THINGS
1] RASULILLAH'S HADITH---> ME AND ALY ARE FROM ONE NOOR
AND
2] OLD DUA ---> ALY MOHAMMED YEK KHUDA, HAQ SHANASI DAFE BALA
AND IN THE GINANS THERE ARE REFERENCES OF PIR=SHAH.
PLEASE DONT SAY ONE IS INFERIOR TO THE OTHER IT REFLECTS POORLY UPON YOUR LEARNING WHICH IS CLEARLY CONSIDERABLE.
YA ALY MADAD
FORGIVE ME IF I HAVE HURT UR FEELING AS MY INTENTION IS NOT TO DO SO
SHAMS
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alinizar313
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Imamat and nabovah running parellel
As we understand that after the nabovah of nabi Mohammed (S.A.S), the silsilah of manifest Imam was started. But as we see that Imam Ali was appointed as First Imam at Gadir-e-Khum. It means Imamat (Manifested) and Nabuwat was running parellel between the period from Gadir-e-Khum incident and the death of Nabi Mohammed. And it shows that during that period Nabi Mohammed posses two offices i,e Nabuwat and Piratan. Is it right? Kandani, Can you please throw some light on this interesting matter.
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star_munir
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star_munir
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Before Prophet Muhammad,
The line of Imamat was present but undeclared. During this time, the Prophethood and Imamat ran parallel to one another.
The HIGHEST STATION of Prophethood and Messengership is that of Piratan. The major Prophets of the Abrahamic linege, in addition to being Nabi and Rasul, were also Pir. (eg: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Hud, Salih, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David , Solomon, Elijah, Zachariah, John, Jesus, Muhammad)
WIth Prophet Muhammad, the Prophethood and Messengership (Nabi and Rasul) came to a close. The Noor of Piratan was returned to the Line of Imamat. From that time onward, the Imam usually commissions someone from his own ancestry to be the Pir of the time. (Eg: Shah Imam Husayn and Pir Imam Hasan).
Another name for Pir is Imam Mustawda (Entrusted Imam)
No more Nabi and Rasul will come, and no more scriptures. However, Pir will continue to interpret the Relgion in exoterically, and Imam will interpret esoterically.
The line of Imamat was present but undeclared. During this time, the Prophethood and Imamat ran parallel to one another.
The HIGHEST STATION of Prophethood and Messengership is that of Piratan. The major Prophets of the Abrahamic linege, in addition to being Nabi and Rasul, were also Pir. (eg: Adam, Enoch, Noah, Hud, Salih, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David , Solomon, Elijah, Zachariah, John, Jesus, Muhammad)
WIth Prophet Muhammad, the Prophethood and Messengership (Nabi and Rasul) came to a close. The Noor of Piratan was returned to the Line of Imamat. From that time onward, the Imam usually commissions someone from his own ancestry to be the Pir of the time. (Eg: Shah Imam Husayn and Pir Imam Hasan).
Another name for Pir is Imam Mustawda (Entrusted Imam)
No more Nabi and Rasul will come, and no more scriptures. However, Pir will continue to interpret the Relgion in exoterically, and Imam will interpret esoterically.
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alinizar313
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- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:17 pm
Yes, after Ghadeer Khum, Ali was Manifest Imam, and Muhammad was Manifest Pir (ie: first Pir to point out Imam to the ppl).
After Prophet Muhammad's death, the function of Piratan was given (back) to Mawlana Ali, who then was both Imam and Pir.
After Mawlana Ali's death, he delegated the Piratan to Imam Hasan and passed Imamat to Imam Husayn.
After Prophet Muhammad's death, the function of Piratan was given (back) to Mawlana Ali, who then was both Imam and Pir.
After Mawlana Ali's death, he delegated the Piratan to Imam Hasan and passed Imamat to Imam Husayn.
Second Pir Hazarat Aly?
This is interesting! According this theory Hazarat Aly was the second Pir and Hazarat Hasan was the third Pir. Is there evidence to support this version that Hazarat Aly appointed Hazarat Hassan after his death and not after the Prophet's death. If this is the case, than Shah Karim is the 51st Peer.kandani wrote:After Prophet Muhammad's death, the function of Piratan was given (back) to Mawlana Ali, who then was both Imam and Pir.
After Mawlana Ali's death, he delegated the Piratan to Imam Hasan and passed Imamat to Imam Husayn.
According to Missionary Abually's book "A Brief History of Ismailism", Hazarat Hassan is the 2nd Pir and Shah Karim is the 50th Pir.
It is the desion of the Imam of the time as to who becomes the next Imam and also who becomes the NEXT PIR. It is all mentioned in his will. So for example, im Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Sha's will it would say something like this (my opinion):
I appoint as the next Imam to lead the Ismaili Community my grandson Karim. I also appoint him to be the next Pir of the Jamat. So this would make Hazar Imam our 49th Imam and our 50th Pir. PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF THE WILL IS NOT IN CONTEXT IT IS MY VIEW AS TO HOW IT WOULD BE PORTRAYED
I appoint as the next Imam to lead the Ismaili Community my grandson Karim. I also appoint him to be the next Pir of the Jamat. So this would make Hazar Imam our 49th Imam and our 50th Pir. PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE STATEMENT OF THE WILL IS NOT IN CONTEXT IT IS MY VIEW AS TO HOW IT WOULD BE PORTRAYED
Sultan Muhammad Shah's Will.
The appointment of Shah Karim as both the Imam and the Peer is mentioned in the will of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as follows.
"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue and in these circumstances and in view of the fundamentally altered conditions in the world in very recent years due to the great changes which have taken place including the discoveries of atomic science, I am convinced that it is in the best interest of the Shia Muslim Ismailia Community that I should be succeeded by a young man who has been brought up and developed during recent years and in the midst of the new age and who brings a new outlook on life to his office as Imam. For these reasons, I appoint my grandson Karim, the son of my own son, Aly Salomone Khan to succeed to the title of Aga Khan and to the Imam and Pir of all Shia Ismailian followers."
"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue and in these circumstances and in view of the fundamentally altered conditions in the world in very recent years due to the great changes which have taken place including the discoveries of atomic science, I am convinced that it is in the best interest of the Shia Muslim Ismailia Community that I should be succeeded by a young man who has been brought up and developed during recent years and in the midst of the new age and who brings a new outlook on life to his office as Imam. For these reasons, I appoint my grandson Karim, the son of my own son, Aly Salomone Khan to succeed to the title of Aga Khan and to the Imam and Pir of all Shia Ismailian followers."
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_thaillestlunatic_
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Role of Pir
The role of the Pir is to interprete faith and guide the murids towards the recognition of Imam. He makes the Firmans. The Imam on the other hand is the Master, the Protector, Provider and Sustainer and who is the object of our devotion as a permanent Mazhar._thaillestlunatic_ wrote:so then what is the role of the Pir?
Isnt it different then the Role of the Imam?
Sorry about the confusion
My interpretation of Piratan passing from Prophet Muhammad to Imam Ali, and then from Imam Ali to Imam Hasan is a personal one.
The Ismaili treatise Ash-shafiya supports this theory, as well as Nasiruddin al-Tusi, and the Mumtaz Tagdin of Ismaili.net.
But I should remind you....this is our own opinion.
The Ismaili treatise Ash-shafiya supports this theory, as well as Nasiruddin al-Tusi, and the Mumtaz Tagdin of Ismaili.net.
But I should remind you....this is our own opinion.
If Hazarat Aly would have made a appointment like the will of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, it would have stated something like this:kandani wrote:My interpretation of Piratan passing from Prophet Muhammad to Imam Ali, and then from Imam Ali to Imam Hasan is a personal one.
The Ismaili treatise Ash-shafiya supports this theory, as well as Nasiruddin al-Tusi, and the Mumtaz Tagdin of Ismaili.net.
But I should remind you....this is our own opinion.
I appoint my son Husein as Imam and my son Hassan as Pir.
Wouldn't this kind of a statement created confusion in the Shia Islamic community. Do you think that the whole community would have had the capacity to understand these two roles as distinct. In my opinion the concept of a Peer is an esoteric concept. Peers operated at the periphery even during the Fatimid Period. What kind of reaction the same concept would have created at the inception of Islam when the Shia community was quite large and had political inclinations.
That's the reason I feel that Hazarat Aly would have appointed Hazarat Hassan at the prophets death in an esoteric context relative to larger Shia community. This would have eliminated the potential problems when he appointed Imam Husein to Imamat.
These are just my thoughts...
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_thaillestlunatic_
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Yes when he gives guidance or makes Firmans or gives BOL, he does it as a Pir. Currently HazarImam is both a Peer and an Imam. In history there have been periods when the role was separated like the periods of Pir Sadardeen, Pir Shamsh etc. For further information on this, you may want to read my introduction to ANANT AKHADO in the ginans section._thaillestlunatic_ wrote:interesting kmaherali!!
so how come every one thinks the role of the imam
is to GUIDE when it is not really, that is the role of the PIR???
still brings confusion as to why we all believe the imam as a guider when he is not as the imam. That is his role as the pir
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