kamauddin missionary and Ginans

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:24 pm

I would like every one of you to write your comments about it.
Alwaez Kamaludin is most famous and populor ismaili missionary of todays time.
I heard waez of Alwaez Kamaluddin about Quran and Ginan. First of all he explained that Quran is the book of Allah,word of God. According to Hazir Imam Quran is miracle in Islam and we all should read and understand Quran which is important for all muslims and Hazir Imam has also said to read Quran.Farman are batini meanings of Quran and basis of Ginans are also from Quran.
About explaining Ginans he said there is not any rigidity that Ginans can not be changed. Even Farmans of Imam are changed than Ginan can also be changed. There are many Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah which can not be followed today [I think that practices can change from time to time but not belief e.g if there is Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad shah that Ali is Allah than there can not be Farman that Ali was just human so belives always remains the same ceremonies may change] Alwaez said that Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said that many of you read books of hinduism which is not proper.When you were hindu Pir Sadardin guide you to the true path.Now that time has changed.
Missionary said Hazir Imam has said to change the word Haree into Ali,leave the concept of theory of das avtar and do not recite the name of hindu gods and godesses in Ginan [Note : Abu Ali missionay said in his waez that Imam has never said any time to make changings in Ginan. We should use original words of Pir.Hazir Imam wish to preserve Ginans we should say Haree when it is Haree and Ali when it is Ali as in Quran if there is word Rab we can not say it Allah we say original verse of God although both Rab and Allah is Same] Kamaluddin missionary said recite Ginan in such away that if some one else listen he should feel that he is among muslims not hindus.

Post your comments and your point of views that how much you agree with this???

Than about Ginan he said

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:08 am

I have a good friend from Pakistan who personaly knows al-Waez Kamaludin.

I think that Kamaludin stays away from the commonality with hinduism because he is in pakistan. During SMS and HI time, there have been changes in pakistan with the way ismailism is practiced. This is due to the great number of muslims in the area and outside influences. Hazir Imam wants to ensure the jamat in pak is safe.

Regarding Das Avatar, I know Hazir Imam says our faith is a personal faith, an intellectual faith. Therefore, if someone follows philosophy of Das Avatar out of his personal, intellectual search and NOT through blind faith, then it is entirely ok.

The concept of Das Avatar may exist in Hindu scriptures, but it can be reinterpreted according to Shii principles. Ie: Das Avatar means that before man evolved and earth was full of animals and through evolution, the Imam was always present.

Das Avatar also gives us pre-Biblical history, including story of Rama, Krishna, and the Boudh Avatar.

I see nothing wrong with it. Kamaludin is allowed to have his own interpretation.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:29 am

Who says the Quran was not changed

Of course it was

read the verse about "today I have perfected your faith"

it has been inserted into an ayat about halal and haram food.

there is a reason these things were done by the khalifs, to mask Mowla Aly's right to the throne so that they could continue to be rulers. Mowla Aly went along with it because when he went to them with the real Kitabullah they refused it and said that Usman's book was enough for them and at the time Mowla Aly said that until the Day of Judgement they would not have access to it.

You see, even they knew that what we call today as Quran is actually Usmans Book not at all the real Quran because that is only with the Imam.

I hope Ismailies understand this. Another thing, Imam has not said read the Quran, he has said "when you read PARTS OF THE QURAN..."

Imam knows and we should too that Usmans Book has parts of the Quran in it. Any Sunni will tell you that this Usmans book has only 30 paras and 10 paras are with Allah.

which means this is not the Quran it is 75% of the Real Quran. SO how can we call this Quran.

This is Usmans Book which is 75% of the real Quran.

Only our beloved Hazir Imam has the entire Quran.

I hope I have not offended anyone with this fact. It is the truth and the truth in known to hurt.

Shams

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:38 am

The Fact that Aly is Allah is clearly shown in MHI BUK Farmans but I cannot post them here as UMED will just censor it and send me a private message to not do that.

Munir if you want furthur info i will send you my msn addy and you can down load msn messenger 6.1 and we can chat about it OK

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:04 pm

Any meaningful study of the Qur'an will require to deal with two issues. These are the language of the Quran and the attunement with the mind of the Qur'an. As for the language, we all know that it is not practical for the majority of the Jamat to know Arabic. I myself have done courses in Arabic and since I have not been in touch with it, it has virtually been wiped out by default. If you do not know Arabic then how are you to approach the Quran. Obviously through a translation. As we all know, any translation invariably involves an interpretation, i.e., a translators understanding of the message which is obviously tied to one's faith. A Sunni will translate it differently than a Shia. You cannot have an absolutely objective and neutral translation. If that is the case, do we have a translation out there which accords with our interpretation? There isn't one. If that is the case, what do we do? Do we rely upon a translation derived from another interpretation? Certainly not! It will lead us to more confusion and misunderstanding. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in his conversation with Dr Nathoo (please refer to my post in the anectdotes section on the "Glorious Fortnight ...") did not recommend Yusuf Ali's translation for the Jamat generally.

Even if we know Arabic, it will still not lead us to the correct understanding if we are not in tune with the mind of the Quran which is obviously Allah. To be able to comprehend Allah's message in it's totality one needs to become one with Him. As we all know there are a very few souls who have attained that feat. For ordinary believers that is not possible. If that is the case, can we say that Allah revealed Quran to bewilder and confuse us? That would not be characteristic of the All Merciful. So what has He done about it. He says that He has appointed "Ulil Amr" (those in authority), to interprete His message at all times. For them to be able to exercise this vital function, they have to be one with Allah at all times. This can only happen through the eternal chain of Imammat.

If that is the case, how does the "Ulil Amr" interprete the Quran. Obviously through His Firmans and speeches depending upon the context. In his Firmans Mowlana Sultan Muhammd Shah has clearly said that the Pirs have extracted the substance of the Quran and given them to us in the form of the Ginans. In other words the Ginans are the "tafsir" (interpretation) of the Quran par excellence which we can trust. So how do we seek guidance? Obviously the current Firmans should be the primary source. If guidance is not found there, then one should seek guidance and understanding from the Ginans.

If that is the case, then what is the function of the Quran in our Tariqah. In my opinion the only real purpose is to give expression to, legitimacy to and articulate our faith in terms of the common denominator of the Muslim Umma which is the Quran. For example, we may articulate Imamat through the Quranic concept of "Ulil Amr" or dasond through "Ushr" . Obviously there is a great deal of artistic tradition which has evolved from the Quran which we can apply to our Tariqah. For example, the recitation of the Quran which can have a very soothing effect and calligraphy which can contribute to beauty. We may utilise the guidance of the Quran so long as it accords with the Ginans and the Firmans. Also any Quranic study undertaken within the framework of our Tariqah must be carefully guided otherwise it can lead to confusion and misunderstanding.

manjee · Post by **manjee** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:57 pm

YA ALI MADAD I THINK KANDANI'S POST MAKES LOT MORE SENSE ABOUT MISSIONARY KAMALUDDIN BEING IN PAKISTAN AND SUNNI/SHARIA'S INFLUENCE  OVER THERE AS FAR AS ISMAILIS ARE CONCERN IF onE AS TO LOOK FOR THE MEANING OF HARI ..........IT WILL TELL YOU A LOT WE ARE MAJORITY FROM INDO-PAK [PRE-AFRICA] OUR LANGUAGE IS NOT ARABIC THERE ARE MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS WHO DON'T READ AND WRITE ARABIC LIKE IN ARABIA AS FAR AS DAS AVATAR IS CONCERN SHAMSU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A FARMAN NO OF M S M WHERE HE ASKS OUR LEARNED TO SEEK THE DAS AVATAR FROM QURAN .............IN QURAN AT onE PLACE ALLAH SAYS HE SWEARS on TEN NIGHTS...................PLEASE DONT ASK FOR REF NO BECAUSE I DONT HAVE onE I AM PRETTY SURE MOST OF YOU WILL BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH THAT ............VERY HUMBLY    YA ALI MADAD.......  

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:35 pm

Thankyou every one for reply. Shamsu I have tell you mt email address through private message hope you got it. Tell me yours

karimqazi · Post by **karimqazi** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:12 pm

Ya Ali Madad

In Kaalam -e- Mowla it says,
"quran paro, agar parna jano, nahi tho suno raab ka kaalam, agaur suna be nah pao kesise tho haardam lo kudahe rasul ka naam. "

In this case, Mowla gives us choices, we can read the quran the way it should be understoof, if we cant do that then we can listen to his farmans, and if we arent not able to understand his farmans then we can recite his holy name(s).

If you still are interested in studying the quran i suggest the translation by Qazi Noman. It can be found in Tayebi libraries.

Thanks
Karim Qazi

May Mowla Bless You All

alinizar313 · Post by **alinizar313** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:46 pm

Well, I personally knows Al-waez Kamaluddin for 25 years as he used to teach us Arabic. He was re-designated as senior research scholar. His main research is on Quran. And whenever non-ismaili muslims created problems regarding our faith, he used to satify them. They also pinpointed the Hindu terminology in our Ginan like Hari, Birmah etc. Due to this reason, the ITRB might request Mowla to change those words. Sometime we forced Mowla to make changes by saying that we have such and such problems as we live in muslim country. And mowla has to act although He knows what he has to do at certain time. Just like Juma bhagat and others went to Imam S.M.S to change Ali sahi Allah to Ali Wali-ullah in our Old Dua.Then Imam got emotional and told to better take out the whole Dua. He said what is wrong in Ali Allah. Then Imam said okay I can at least change to Ali-ullah. So we forced mowla like stubborn child that Mom I want candy though his mon has told him that it will damage your teeth. What is this All about?.... just Iman ni Kamjori.....Jub Missionarion ka yeh haal hai tau jamat ka Khuda hi Hafiz Hai.

alinizar313 · Post by **alinizar313** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:57 pm

Satagur Kahaire Dharam tau saacho Iman no
Iman saach Jaarn
Jo Iman laavsho Farman soo
tau daas amara jaarn

"Amaara farman parnmane je chalaiy chhaiy ej amaara haqiqati momin chhaiy ane kharekhar deen no erth parn ej chhaiy" K.I.M Part 1

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:49 pm

Ya Ali Madad

I agree with you all. I received by mail notifiction of private message 2 times. I think Shamsu you sent that but I dont got message as when I went to the link it was page not found.Also when I went to ismaili.net and login and I dont got any privte message.
You have my mail address which I have given to you in private message. Mail me so I wll get your mail address.
Thank you all

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:38 am

Dear Munir it appears the private message system is not working for us

Shams

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:21 pm

manjee wrote AS FAR AS DAS AVATAR IS CONCERN SHAMSU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A FARMAN NO OF M S M WHERE HE ASKS OUR LEARNED TO SEEK THE DAS AVATAR FROM QURAN .............IN QURAN AT onE PLACE ALLAH SAYS HE SWEARS on TEN NIGHTS...................PLEASE DONT ASK FOR REF NO BECAUSE I DONT HAVE onE I AM PRETTY SURE MOST OF YOU WILL BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH THAT ............

Can any one explain conept of das avtar from Quranic verses. Is it in Quran? About ten nights explain it.

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:18 pm

89:1 - I swear by the Dawn
89:2 - And the Ten Nights,
89:3 - And the Even and the Odd,
89:4 - And the night when it departeth,
89:5 - There surely is an oath for thinking man

In the above verse, the Dawn refers to the period of Qiyamat when the Haqiqat will be accessible to all people and each will have a glimpse (deedar) of God’s Light through the Qaim al-Qiyamat (The Imam who is the Bringer of Resurrection). The Prophet Muhammad has said that Mawlana Ali will raise the banner of Qiyamat and announce it to the world. The Ten Nights refer to ten previous periods or Cycles of Screening, the tenth period being our own cycle where the Religious Law or Shariah acts as a veil in which the true gnosis (Haqiqat) is hidden. Each night is then proceeded by a Dawn or Resurrection period. The Ten Avatars correspond to the Ten Nights and Dawns. We are in the final Night and awaiting the Dawn when the Manifest Imam, the Tenth Avatar, will reveal his Imamat globally.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:17 pm

kandani wrote:89:1 - I swear by the Dawn
89:2 - And the Ten Nights,
89:3 - And the Even and the Odd,
89:4 - And the night when it departeth,
89:5 - There surely is an oath for thinking man

In the above verse, the Dawn refers to the period of Qiyamat when the Haqiqat will be accessible to all people and each will have a glimpse (deedar) of God’s Light through the Qaim al-Qiyamat (The Imam who is the Bringer of Resurrection). The Prophet Muhammad has said that Mawlana Ali will raise the banner of Qiyamat and announce it to the world. The Ten Nights refer to ten previous periods or Cycles of Screening, the tenth period being our own cycle where the Religious Law or Shariah acts as a veil in which the true gnosis (Haqiqat) is hidden. Each night is then proceeded by a Dawn or Resurrection period. The Ten Avatars correspond to the Ten Nights and Dawns. We are in the final Night and awaiting the Dawn when the Manifest Imam, the Tenth Avatar, will reveal his Imamat globally.

A very interesting interpretation and the only plausible one! I could not come up with any other. It seems that Ginans being the tafsir per excellence convey all the essentials of the Quran and more! All signs are pointing to the DAWN.

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:07 am

89:1 - I swear by the Dawn
89:2 - And the Ten Nights,
89:3 - And the Even and the Odd,
89:4 - And the night when it departeth,
89:5 - There surely is an oath for thinking man

`Shamsu are these ayats of Quran & plz send me your msn id my msn id is [email protected] & plz send me that Farman which clearly states that Imam is Allah! i would be really great full to you and one more question that every missionary has different interpetation so on which interpetation should we agree because as Missioanry kamaluddin says not to remember Das Avatar and Abu ALi says its the base of ismailism and i think that Abu ALy is exactly right because we should know our base that from where imamat has started! waiting for you reply and Star munir send me you msn id also on my pvt .

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:01 pm

Ya Ali Madad Aly Sahllwani
I came here after so many days so sorry for replying late. I will mail you on your e mail address.
. I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board. You can get relegious infromation from any where like this website. Here we disucss and share knowledge and get answers to so many questions which we can not find in books of Tarqa board.
Now it is not only with Kamaluddin missionay. Listen to waez of any pakistani missionary they will alawys say you to follow tariqa board in matter of Ginans and every thing. The reason is if any missionary do not say like that,do not favours tariqa board or make waezes on sensitive topics, tariqa board will ban them so you can find a lot of difference in waezes of kamaluddin and Abu Ali missionary. Now see how much difference. Abu Ali missionary said in his waez Hazir Imam want us to say actual words of Ginan. We should preserve it in orignal wordings for future generation while Kamaluddin missionary said in his waez that changes are made in Ginan according to guidance of Hazir Imam see both the points totally different and opposite.

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:02 am

Hi Munir,<BR>I was really angry on Kamaluddin missionary i agree that he is a champs of missionaries but he does not want to speak any thing related to the ginan like Abu Aly does but wats the matter with council why have they banned Abu aly as he is telling truth to the ismailies But there is one thing that council is working on the Hazir imam's orders so why should we blame council Hazir imam has banned Abu aly Missionary as there would be any secret in it and i think that things like Das Avataar and other predictions in Ginan are not for this time and when ever time will come imam will tell us in the farameen Mubaraks.in the end i'll thank you for replying and spending your precious time with us discussing these unanswered questions and this is the only place where we can question every kind of problem but i think that the people donot feel free when we are asking missionaries to solve our problems as we have the facility of internet but not an every single person gets this facility sorry to say but council should do some thing for this issue if they'll not do any thing than the questions in the mind of people will remain unanswered and their will be some kind of disturbence in their faith & believe!

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star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:18 pm

Hazir Imam has not banned waezes of Abu Ali.If you will listen to waezes of Bahadur Ali,Abu Ali, Babul missionary etc you will find difference as compare to waezes made by Kamaluddin missionary or other pakistani missionaries as if they will not follow the instructions of tariqa board they will be banned by tariqa board.
The problem is the people are not tolerent.You know how much people got killed on basis of religion. There was very big problem between sunni and shia. In India there is problem between muslim extremist and hindu extremist in Aydhoya. So today if tariqa board allows to read all these Ginans and Farmans than the problem is ignorant ismailis will tell every thing to nonismailis and they can not tolerate it. Therefore missionaries are not allowed to discuss on sensitive issues and hide many things.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:25 pm

I dont think its right or appropriate. I think missionaries should not misguide ismailis but tell every thing which is correct.True concept of Imam and Pir must be taught to kids in night schools.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:38 pm

Today the world has changed. Today people used to get angry and start killing each other in name of religion without understanding any thing.
This was not in past.Do you know that when Imam Sultan Muhaamd Shah went in Mosque of Kapurthla along with Sir Abdul Hameed,Sir Abdul Qadeer,Mr Lateefi and Mr Ahsaan ul Haaq, molvi made speech in praise of Imam in which he also said about Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah infornt of non ismailis that Many people worship Him as Shree Krishna avtaar and we are blessed with your Deedar... [you can read full from Noorum Mubin]
Mowlana Shibli Noumani said :Although according to belief of Sunni and Shia Sir Aga Khan is not Khuda but He is Nakhuda of boat of muslims around world.
At that time there was love and freedom which is not. In past there was tolerence,peace,love etc later people [both hindus and muslims] started becoming extremist and started fighting in name of religion which cause division of subcontinent into Pakistan,India and Bangladesh.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:11 pm

star_munir wrote:Today the world has changed. Today people used to get angry and start killing each other in name of religion without understanding any thing.
This was not in past.

I think as MHI has stated on numerous occassions, these sectarial conflicts are really expressions of frustration due to economic deprivation and poverty. AKDN is addressing these issues through their role model impact within the overall framework of civil society institutions and their role in creating enabling conditions for development.

These issues also underscore the need to promote pluralism. MHI stressed this when he was in India last year and said that pluralism was vital for human survival.

Then we as a Jamat can minimise these conflicts by exercising wisdom in determining what constitutes the Zaher and what is Batin.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:16 pm

I would assume that is why the
Global Centre For Pluralism will be held
in Ottawa.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:24 am

following this thread..it has come to my attention over the last couple of months that the new arrivals from pakistan (karachi) to be specific in our jamat khana (2 of them)..sing common ginans with their own ra'ags and words..now being from East Africa..i understood that there were slight variations and word changes..with the views in pakistan or the lack thereof..but this is totally different than what we've been used to..nobody inkhane knew this ra'ag...and they seem to sing all ginans this way..
i asked somebody and they said that an alwaez in pakistan had come up with new ra'ags and the old ones were obsolete!...is this true over there ?
and how can someone arbitraily decide when something is obsolete.?
also i'd like to ask if the practice of having a light on ghatpat is still there because we have it discontinued....

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:24 pm

Ya Aly Madat, shams

where is it discontinued in East Africa??
I know for sure it is continued in North American jamats
The light signifies the omniprescense of the Noor
how can council or ITREB take that way?? Doesn't make sense to me
at all

Wish u the best

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:44 pm

I meant i am from East africa..and it's continued there..i meant that in the US since a majority of the jamat is of pakistan origin, we might be following what they do..
in our jamatkhana..there hasn't been a light on ghatpat for the past 4 or 5 years..it has been mentioned to the m.saheb and been ignored.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:38 pm

that is sad to hear
maybe u can shed some light and talk to Mukhi about it

wish u all the best in ur quest

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:02 pm

It's not worth it talking to anyone about it..since according tothem i am east african and less of an ismaili and less knowledgable than they are in matters of the faith.

ShamsB

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:54 pm

ShamsB wrote:It's not worth it talking to anyone about it..since according tothem i am east african and less of an ismaili and less knowledgable than they are in matters of the faith.

ShamsB

I can certainly say the issue is not specifically with or toward African Ismailis. It is on a different level and covers a much broader range. The "targets" are those who are not "buddy-buddy" with certain leadership circles.

As for Gatpath light, I haven't seen it on our pat for at least 4 years (may actually be more than that).

www.ismaili.net

kamauddin missionary and Ginans

kamauddin missionary and Ginans

the Quran was changed

Aly is Allah

Relevance of the Qur'an in Ismaili Tariqah.

quran

Religion/Dharam

my email address

Shamsu... read this,,any one answer this !

Kamaluddin Missionary does only that which council says

Ginans/Ra'ags/Word changes

I am from East Africa..not there currently

Not worth it

Re: Not worth it