Fasting

[snow_white]

Dear Snow White
Please Don't pass the false information, if you don't have a proper reference

Snow White may not have the proper reference but his/her information is right. I urge you to read the whole thread to refresh your memory on what has already been discusses on this subject.

There are 3 kind of Roza [fasts]

1) Those who are required and obligatory [Beej]
2) Those who are optional
3) Those who are forbidden.

How do you know which one is which?

Very simple. A Roza is required from an Ismaili if his Imam has said so.
A Roza is forbidden if the Imam has said so
A Roza is optional when the Imam has left to a person the decision to do it. [Like Satima jo Rojo which in one of the Talikah I have read, the Imam has called SatmiRat and in another MowlaJoRojo]

The Jamat in Salamieh, Syria is strong enough historically not to keep the Ramadhan Roza as ORDERED by their Imam. Even though they are under pressure from their Sunni neighbours. In some countries they are not brave enough and would even say to other Ismailis that they have to keep Rozas in Ramadan. In Syria the Sunnis of Hama go to Salamieh restaurants to eat afternoon lunch [20 km drive] because all restaurants are open there.

In 1980 July, Hazar Imam gave Didar to Paris Jamat in the middle of the month of Ramadan. Guess who decided of the Menu for lunch for the Jamat? [sitting arrangement please

So definately Snow White you may not have the sources but you are on the Right Path. Foget about the reformers. Here in Nairobi we have plenty of them. Last Friday about 100 Ismailis could be found in the 3 Masjids around Parklands Jamatkhana. Their comon point? They were all fasting Ramadhan and felt a lot closer to other Muslims going to Masjid then to Ismailis who went to Jamatkhanas.

Sultan Muhammad Shah said Shariat and Haqiqat are world apart and shall NEVER meet. Let the reformers go to Shariat. We have gone a long way already towards Haqiqat to go back. Imam said You were Muslims and you have gone one step higher, you have become Ismailis. Some of us want to go back one step lower to please their "Muslim" breathren. Let them do so. When Hazar Imam was asked if during His Imamat He wanted to see the number of Ismailis increase He said "ABSOLUTELY NOT!". Sultan Muhammad Shah also warned that if you start following Shariat you will drift away from Haqiqat.

In Ismailism, only the Imam of the Time can change a Farman made in the past [be it an hour, a day or a century]. Let the reformers search forever for a Farman where any Imam has reversed the Farmans about not doing fast in ramadhan.

By the way, if someone want all the dates of Didar that have happened during Ramadan, it is not difficult to find. And also to discover that there are countries where this does not happen and there are countries where this happens. This shows a lot about the [in]tolerance and the negation of pluralism in the Muslim world. I do not know Arabic but I know Hazar imam has quoted the Quran on [something like Dinikum lakum dini etc? the Quran says tell them: unto you your faith and unto me my faith]

Nagib

Thank uuu soooooooo muchhhhh......Yes it is true....And i dont post info for no reason. And yes many ismaili ppl fast during ramadan. ITs their choice. Don't go according to people. Go according to imam. Follow him.....not other people who fast.

[ShamsB]

Thank uuu soooooooo muchhhhh......Yes it is true....And i dont post info for no reason. And yes many ismaili ppl fast during ramadan. ITs their choice. Don't go according to people. Go according to imam. Follow him.....not other people who fast.

Yes and if you follow other people..follow the ones that follow the farmans of the Imam....


Shams

[Perfectdoll19]

ohhh ok

[logical]

Virgo2,

Pls explain the difference between the verse of Fasting in Quran with the following verses of Quran:

-"Allah has okayed Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES(Right hand possesses)"

etc, etc.... all referred to in the Quran.

And, if they are Words of Allah and, has to be equally & literally followed and not discriminated with one another.
And, if that is the case why make a fuss when critics calls Fundamentalist/Literal Islam - EVIL?

[snow_white]

Thank uuu soooooooo muchhhhh......Yes it is true....And i dont post info for no reason. And yes many ismaili ppl fast during ramadan. ITs their choice. Don't go according to people. Go according to imam. Follow him.....not other people who fast.

Yes and if you follow other people..follow the ones that follow the farmans of the Imam....


Shams

True.

[snow_white]

IF you guys wanna know the difference between all this....check out this link..

http://members.tripod.com/~ismailis/ismailism.html

[snow_white]

Virgo2,

Pls explain the difference between the verse of Fasting in Quran with the following verses of Quran:

-"Allah has okayed Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES(Right hand possesses)"

etc, etc.... all referred to in the Quran.

And, if they are Words of Allah and, has to be equally & literally followed and not discriminated with one another.
And, if that is the case why make a fuss when critics calls Fundamentalist/Literal Islam - EVIL?

good one.. You do sound logical heheh

[Virgo2]

Dear logical,

Virgo2,

Pls explain the difference between the verse of Fasting in Quran with the following verses of Quran:

-"Allah has okayed Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES(Right hand possesses

Dear logical, are you saying that Qur’an is all that and nothing else? Then Why recite the Sura of Al-Qadr in JK during Lailatul-Qadr; why even observer Lailatul Qadr. Why recite Sura Nur and other suras in front of the Imam. Why recite the Yaseen in JK when a person dies; why even give fateha to the dead and recite Namaz e Janaza. Why even recite the suras that are in our prayers and above all


why follow the Ulil Amr if you do not want to follow the Qur’an or why even pay Ushr.

Why do you think we went from Gujarati dua to Arabic dua?


My argument is not that Ismailis should fast or not fast. There is nothing compulsory in our religion except , our Love for the Imam and his bayat, our 3 prayers and dasond. The rest is up to us. Our faith tells us, and the Prophet had said too, that Islam is not a faith that is burdensome. It is a faith whereby people feel happy and content following it.


Brother Nagib, may I point out to you that during 1997 and 1998 a lot of true Syrian Salamiehan Ismailis had left Ismailism to follow Sunni Islam? Ask any Syrian, he will tell you so. I remember some Council members came from Aiglemont to look at the situation and reported to Imam – Do you know what the Imam said? He said to let them go and not hold them back. Albeit, some reverted due to some visions of Mowla but the rest have stayed. Many Salamiehan women who come to Jamat Khana wear a hijab (head cover). We were told by our late Imam not to wear it except in countries where it is required. In Syria there is no law saying we have to wear Hijab. Have you seen Salamiehans and other Syrian Ismailis who during the prayer time sit outside their homes (some even in front of JK) smoking and drinking Kahwa and Miteh?. Some of us even went to their homes in Damascus and Salamieh and showed them Imam’s farmans about attendance in JK. Only one woman in Damascus followed it. The rest just ignored it. I am not going to judge their Iman because I know they have tremendous love for the Imam and when Imam S.M.S. said that they do his deedar everyday, it is true that some of them do. And I noticed that these were the ones who attended JK morning and evening, paid dasond and yes, some of them fasted too. We cannot judge anybody without knowing more about them – so please those of you who say that We, Ismailis, who fast are going against Imam’s farmans, please provide the proof of the Imam’s farman. All I know that our late Imam said that even a donkey can fast but we have to fast spiritually too for 365 days. He did not state that we should not do the physical fast.
It is not right to say that Ismailis who fast and go to JK and Ismailis who fast and go to Masjid are reformers. The difference between the Ismailis who go to Masjid not only in Nairobi, but also in Vancouver, Toronto, London, etc and the Ismailis who attend JK and fast is that the ones going to Masjid believe they do not need Imam and his Tariqah. There are people in this forum who know me and can vouch for my Iman. I am not a reformer. I love my faith and have helped bring back a few who were intending to go the other way. All I am asking is show me a farman in which our Imam has said that we are not to fast.


As for being Shariati, may I tell you that our Pirs have told us that Sharia is our first step on the spiritual path, followed by Tariqah, Haqiqah, and Marifah.

Nagib,

In Ismailism, only the Imam of the Time can change a Farman made in the past [be it an hour, a day or a century]. Let the reformers search forever for a Farman where any Imam has reversed the Farmans about not doing fast in ramadhan.

I would still like to see a farman by any Imam after Imam Jalaludin Hassan A.S., which says that Ismailis are not required to fast. If there is no farman, then it is okay to fast, especially if we insist on calling ourselves Muslims. However, Ismaili physical fasts go hand in hand with spiritual fast. We are not compelled to make them up and if we do not fast, it is not a sin because the Qur’an does not say that those people who do not fast or make up fasts are committing sins.

Those who know me, know that I have been accused of being anti-Muslim because of my stand against their violent behaviour and distorting the message of the Qur'an and the Prophet. When people say things against Muslims I do not twinge. However, when they attack our Imam and Ismailism, I have been told that they do not like my style of response. However, I cannot contain my emotions about my faith and my Imam. So please do not label me a reformer.

Virgo2

[snow_white]

Look man your trying to make a big deal out of this. Why you want proofs ? Don't you trust our imam ? Read the link i just posted, and u will find it out. Just stop this senseless argument.

I WANT YOU ALL TO READ THIS LINK...ITS NOT THE SAME ONE I POSTED BEFORE.

http://www.shariati.com/messages/5866.html
Even they think we are not known as muslims. Then why the heck our people believe that they are muslims....lol

[snow_white]

Virgo2,

Pls explain the difference between the verse of Fasting in Quran with the following verses of Quran:

-"Allah has okayed Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES(Right hand possesses)"

etc, etc.... all referred to in the Quran.

And, if they are Words of Allah and, has to be equally & literally followed and not discriminated with one another.
And, if that is the case why make a fuss when critics calls Fundamentalist/Literal Islam - EVIL?

Insense, They are all that, he mentioned above. And it doesnt say it in Quran, then why they are so harsh ? If they are *muslims* Then why they take revenge? Its just lame of arguing virgo.

IF you love your imam, then Have faith in him. bygones are bygones..look into the future.

[Virgo2]

Snow white:

Look man your trying to make a big deal out of this. Why you want proofs ? Don't you trust our imam ? Read the link i just posted, and u will find it out. Just stop this senseless argument.

I WANT YOU ALL TO READ THIS LINK...ITS NOT THE SAME ONE I POSTED BEFORE.

http://www.shariati.com/messages/5866.html
Even they think we are not known as muslims. Then why the heck our people believe that they are muslims....lol

Dear friend,

this is going to be my last post on the subject.

Why you want proofs ? Don't you trust our imam ? Read the link i just posted, and u will find it out. Just stop this senseless argument.

I trust the Imam, but not people who say without any proof that Imam has said that we should stop fasting. I still insist on you providing me that farman until then I think you are not conveying the correct information and to use Imam's name to support your statement is not right for you or for the Imam.

As regards the link, what has that got to do with Ismailis fasting. That is nothing new to me. Ignoramuses make such statements and to read such b.s. is a waste of time. I do not read or respond either. We Ismailis have better things to do than engage in judging others or derogating other Muslims just because they have done the same to us.

Imam himself has told us to read the Qur'an and understand it. He has said that Qur'an is the only Miracle in Islam. Our ginans are from the Qur'an so why would any Ismaili condemn this Holy Book? Why has the Imam selected verses from the qur'an and incorporated them in our prayers?

With all due respect, Snow white, you do not make sense to me. You have, first of all twisted your message about fasting and then you have condemned the scriptures of our Holy Book. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Do you know why those injuctions were made? You need historical facts behind those injuctions. What the brother provided were just one line and not the whole text. Those injuctions are not valid any more. I do not think Imam, in this day and age, expects us, Ismailis to talk like the rest of ignoramuses. Please get some education on Ismailism - and start from the literature desk in your JK. You are talking like a fanatic muslim in the street of Baghdad, except you are calling yourself Ismaili. Ismailis do not condemn Qur'an and nor twist Imam's message and use it as an excuse to point fingers at others. Have you heard waez's? Don't the missionaries quote the Qur'an? In fact, they even start the waez with the recitation of Qur'an and ginan.


Now, if you have the Farman on fasting, provide it, and if you don't then do not waste people's time by providing links of people who have no knowledge about Ismailism or the Imam.

Virgo2

[snow_white]

Look, I am not telling you to stop fasting. I never said that. You took it personally, i don't know why. Can't i post my opinions? If you have right to..then y dont i ?

I am not here to argue.. Okay? And i am not twisting anything. Your taking things in different point of view. Not my fault.

Well, You still want proof about that farman on fasting..lol

If your fasting good for you. Great job! But i don't.....And i won't. Cause i know its not necessary...The End. Please respect other peoples opinion. There are other people who agree with me. So i am right on my own ....and u r right on your own. Sigh...

oh about the second site..i just wanted you guys to read it. I Think its offensive, But it also says that Ismailis are not known as Muslism. thats all i wanted to show.

[logical]

Dear logical,

Virgo2,

Pls explain the difference between the verse of Fasting in Quran with the following verses of Quran:

-"Allah has okayed Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES(Right hand possesses

Dear logical, are you saying that Qur’an is all that and nothing else? Then Why recite the Sura of Al-Qadr in JK during Lailatul-Qadr; why even observer Lailatul Qadr. Why recite Sura Nur and other suras in front of the Imam. Why recite the Yaseen in JK when a person dies; why even give fateha to the dead and recite Namaz e Janaza. Why even recite the suras that are in our prayers and above all

why follow the Ulil Amr if you do not want to follow the Qur’an or why even pay Ushr.

Why do you think we went from Gujarati dua to Arabic dua?

My argument is not that Ismailis should fast or not fast. There is nothing compulsory in our religion except , our Love for the Imam and his bayat, our 3 prayers and dasond. The rest is up to us. Our faith tells us, and the Prophet had said too, that Islam is not a faith that is burdensome. It is a faith whereby people feel happy and content following it. Virgo2

My dear Virgo2, thank you for responding.

The differnce among those quranic verses quoted above is that for most (Majoritarian/fundamentalist/literalist Islam) the quoted verses are to be followed literally and there is no difference between the verse of Fasting and other verses quoted above. They are all words/commandments of Allah to be followed literally - word per word.

On the other hand, for those" who can reflect", those verses, except the verse on Fasting, cannot be followed. To follow & apply those verses is to bring insult & disgrace to the meaning of God that is Rahman & Rahim(Merciful & Benevolent).
Note: according to Fundamentalist Islam, I've just committed apostasy or Rejected Islam for saying what I said and, according to them I must repent or be killed.

Is it any wonder that the majoritarian muslims cannot equate Goodness of Allah which is that He is Rahman & Rahim in their versions or practise of Islam.
How can they?
If Allah, in his quran, "has ordained eye for an eye, blood for blood... "and, that is precisely what the majoritarian Islam is committing in this world - in name of Allah!

As far as Fast (Roza) goes, it is upto an individual and will always have to be that way; however, it may be good -spiritually & health-wise as many ismailis are getting fat & over-indulgent.

For the ismailis that fast, it is necessary that JamatKhanes provide spiritual outlet for them as well to break fast, like -brother Virgo2 correctly indicated, partaking in Niyaz to break fast or tasbihs & zikrs and, attendees will benefit from it.

[Virgo2]

Dear logical,

Today, the eve of 23rd of Ramadhan, is the anniversary of the Qur'an. I hope and pray for Ismailis all around the world for their Imanji Salamati until their last breath, and May Mowla, fulfill all their Nek Umeds, and remove calamities, Ameen. Also, I pray to Mowla to remove calamities of all our Muslim brothers and guide them to the Right Path.

As for:

Is it any wonder that the majoritarian muslims cannot equate Goodness of Allah which is that He is Rahman & Rahim in their versions or practise of Islam.
How can they?
If Allah, in his quran, "has ordained eye for an eye, blood for blood... "and, that is precisely what the majoritarian Islam is committing in this world - in name of Allah!

dear brother, the Muslims who commit the above actions are the mis-guided ones. Those revelations were made in a specific historical context.For e.g. cutting of the hands of thieves. There were too many thefts and it was the only way to stop it. However, 13 years later Omar removed this injunction because the thefts were being committed because of famine. Or the fact that Christians and Jews should not be befriended - why? Because they were harassing other MUslims and the Prophet. But in the same book Allah S.W.T. has said to respect the People of the Book - why? Beause Muslims were now in power and harrassing the christians and Jews. A mother will only punish a child if the child has been unruly - there has to be a context and this is exactly what happened in the past. However, all Muslims agree that nobody can change the Qur'an. But many changes were made to the Qur'an by the Kaliphas according to times. Unfortunately, for our fellow Muslim brothers they have Radical Mullahs to guide them, who are the most ignorant people on this Planet Earth. We, Ismailis, are lucky ones that we have an Imam, who is the only one who has the right to make any changes to the Qur'an. If he does, we have to follow them because afterall he is the Qur'an e Natiq.

Snow white dear, I do respect your right not to fast but don't tell me without any proof that those who fast are going against Imam's farmans. There are no farmans saying not to fast, period!

Have a good Lailatul Qadr. May Mowla enlighten your hearts and accept your prayers.

Virgo2[/b]

[razinizar]

I agree with Virgo2
The Most Dangerious thing i have seen here is "INTERPRETATION OF RELIGION WITH THERE OWN COMMON SENSE AND LOGICS WITH OUT REFERENCES
Batini Fast is very Important and Essential but it doesn't mean not to FAST (Zahiri) in the month of Ramzan.
Zahiri and Batini both Fast are important in the month of Ramzan here is the reference.
O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil).For a certain number of days; but whoever among you is sick or on a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; and those who are not able to do it may effect a redemption by feeding a poor man; so whoever does good spontaneously it is better for him; and that you fast is better for you if you know.The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.-Qur'an, Al-Baqara,Surah 2:183-185

If you still think, that ZAHIRI Fast is not Neccesary in Ramazan then tell me a single farman or any other authentic reference if you are true

[nagib]

If you still think, that ZAHIRI Fast is not Neccesary in Ramazan then tell me a single farman or any other authentic reference if you are true

First of all I want to correct on a Farman which people have misquoted from Sultan Muhammad Shah to try to make him say something he has never said.



“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”


The correct translation is:

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.


Now, I will not insult your intelligence by telling you that here are DOZENS of farmans saying we should not fast in Ramazan. You can just browse through the old posting on this subject in this same Forum.

DO your Roza of not eating food any of the 11 other months. Religion is not something we will bend in order to please other Muslim brother. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has time and again said that if you follow the way of the Mullah you will be lost. He has said time and again that if you follow the Shariat, you will drift away from Haqiqat. He has said time and again that Shariat and Haqiqat are worlds apart and shall never meet. What is the use of quoting again all the Farmans which have already been posted here?

Let those who believe, believe. Even Mowlana Aga Ali Shah has said to us that the Prophet [PBUH] has shown the way we will recognise the 73rd firqah of Islam who will be on the Strait path and that will be that that firqah will be in minority and will not be doing Namaz and Roza.

[razinizar]

According to Nagib Sultan Muhammad Shah Farman is
“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”

The correct translation is:

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.

The word used "NoT ONLy" in the Farman, means Haqaqiti Momin doesn't Only Fast in the Month of Ramazan but for a year means haqaqiti momin do fast in the ramazan. As you can see the Imam clearly try to explain that do Good deeds not only in the month of ramazan but for a year.
You interpreted the Farman Wrong, Farman doesn't say not to Fast in the month of Ramazan. Farman mean Sprirtual Roza can be Obsereved Whole Year not only Ramazan, But it doesn't mean don't Fast(zaheri) or it is not neccesary. it Means there are 2 kind of Fast Spritual Fast and Zahiri Fast, Spritual Fast Which is for whole Year but in the month of Ramazan we must Fast Zahiri and batini both.
But If you think the batini Fast is Only neccassary then BEEJ would also be the batini not zaheri. but it is not.

For a Momin,
Every Night is a Night of Power (but it doesn't means we should only do Ibadat in Night of Power. We should do it regularly)
Every Month is a month of Ramzan (but it doesn't mean we shouldn't fast (Zahiri) in the month of Ramzan)

[nagib]

"It is not right to say that Ismailis who fast and go to JK and Ismailis who fast and go to Masjid are reformers."

Well I can say this, those who are going to Masjid instead of Jamatkhana have already drifted so far that I will not loose my time trying to convince them. So is the case of those keeping Ramazan Roza. They have already choosen whith whom they want to be identified.

But I want to comment on the posting about Syrian because it is quiete insulting.

I have been to Syria less then 5 years ago. I have been to Jamatkhanas in Aleppo, Salamieh, Masyaf, shared hospitality in Ismailis Syrian homes, talked with our brothers in Damascus, Khawabie and the post does certainely not represent them. There has always been a Sunni and other minority in Salamieh. They have leaved in peace with the Ismailis. Some have tried to convert Ismailis to their tariqah but proportionaly, more Ismailis have become Sunnis in Toronto or Nairobi from amongst the Khojas then from Ismailis of Salamieh.

As far as the feedback on the status from khojas working in Aiglemont, I have very severe reservation, having seen myself the insulting behaviour of some of them when they were in Syria and having heard from Syrian Council leaders how our Aiglemont Khojas have sometime treated them like sub-humans.

I will certainely not let anyone drag them in the mud.

If any Imam, let alone, Jalaludin Hassan, would have reinstated the ROza, Syrian Ismailis would have been the first one to apply the Farmans and Iranians Pirs who were preaching at that time in India would have been the first one there to integrate them in the ginans.

Isn't is funny that the sources who are saying that the Farman to stop Roza had been reversed by Imam Jalaluddin Hasan [though no Farman is provided by them] are the same sources who are saying that Imam Hakim was "mad" for having said to 10,000 Arabs in Cairo in one of his declaration that he was the tenth manifestation of God? Will I waste my time "proving" that Imam Hakim was not "mad" or that some self appointed "scholars "where wrong?

I don't think so. After all these postings, if people are still sticking to ramazan rozas, there is no hope for them, why waste more time, let them self punish themselves. They can even go to Masjid for Namaz after their Rozas, doesn't bother me a bit.

Nagib

[nagib]

According to Nagib Sultan Muhammad Shah Farman is
“HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI, TEO NE TO 360 DIVAS HAMESHA ROJA HOY CHHE. TRAN SO SATH DIVASMA(N) EK PAN BADKAM NA THAY AE ROZA CHHE. KOI NE IZA NA KARVI AE ROZA CHHE. AE ROZA NATHI KE MODHU(N) BANDH KARI NE NAHI KHAVU(N) ANE BIJA GUNAH NA BAD KAM KARVA...”

The correct translation is:

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.

You interpreted the Farman Wrong

I have just translated and provided the text in English transcript. There is no interpretation. I says what it says. I do not know where you have learned your Gujrati nor which dictionnary you have used but everyone can see what is there and what it means.

Nagib

[snow_white]

A Hakikati Moman is not observing the fast only in the month of Ramzan. For him Fasting is for the whole year (lit. 360 days) For him the fasting is all the days of the year (lit. always, every day, constantly). During 360 days not to perform any misconduct, (evil act adultery etc) even for one instant is the meaning of Roja. Not to hurt any one is the meaning of Roja. It is not the Roja that to keep the mouth shut, not to eat any thing and perform all short evil acts.

Some people just don't wanna give up. Even if they are not making sense. But, i would like to repeat it again, that Ramadan is NOT important. THE END.

[logical]

Those revelations were made in a specific historical context.For e.g. cutting of the hands of thieves. There were too many thefts and it was the only way to stop it. However, 13 years later Omar removed this injunction because the thefts were being committed because of famine.

Or the fact that Christians and Jews should not be befriended - why? Because they were harassing other MUslims and the Prophet

Dear Virgo2,
You are referring to the first two of the 8 Quranic verses that I cited, or:
-"Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."

Historical context means that it was time bound and cannot be applied anymore. For majority nothing is time-bound. They are all to be followed & implemented - literally.

Ismailis follow Quran in its esoteric meanings and not Zaheri or literal. Those 9 verses that I cited have zero esoteric meanings except for Fasting and brother nagib has cited the esoteric meanings.

Pls allow me to explain how the "Eye for eye, blood for blood..." verse is enforced as Shariah law:

Qisas (Retaliation) and Diyat (Blood Money)
Islam revives the law of retaliation or lex talionis, best known from the formulation "an eye for an eye" in the Torah.

The Quran
005.045
YUSUFALI: We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

Under Sharia'h the injured party has the option to remit or forego retaliation and take blood-wit or an indemnity or compensation in money or in goods or livestock in an agrarian economy. This option is known as "diya." ( Blood money).

The Torah
Exodus 21:23-25 says straightforwardly:
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. (cf. Leviticus 24:17-22 and Deuteronomy
19:21)

In 2000, the law of retaliation (Arabic word is qisas) required an eye to be removed:

In August 2000, the Saudi Arabian media reported that Abdel Moti Abdel Rahman Mohammad, a 37-year-old-Egyptian national was subjected to forcible surgical removal of his left eye at King Fahd Hospital in Medina. The operation was carried out as a judicial punishment of Qisas after he was found guilty of disfiguring Shahata Ajami Mahmoud, a 53-year-old Egyptian, by throwing acid at his face and damaging his left eye.

In 2003, in Saudi Arabia a man had two teeth extracted under the law of retaliation:

In May Awda al-Zahrani, a Saudi Arabian national, reportedly had two of his teeth extracted as a judicial punishment for having caused similar injury to someone during a fight. One press report suggested that the teeth were extracted by a dentist.

In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fiancée:

The court in the town of Bahawalpur, Punjab province, sentenced Mohammad Sajid under the Islamic Qisas law that matches crime and punishment. Sajid blinded and mutilated his fiancée after her parents called off the couple's engagement.

Acid drops will be thrown into his eyes in line with the Islamic laws," Mohammad Shahid, a court official told the Reuters news agency.
The law allows for a like-for-like punishment unless clemency is agreed by the victim's family.

In 2005, an Iranian court ordered a man’s eye to be removed for throwing acid on another man and blinding him in both eyes:

Article 70
If someone gauges [sic, gouges] out the eye of another, he can be condemned in accordance with the law of retaliation, even if he himself has only one eye and will be blind as a consequence.
No reason exists for him not to pay compensation.

The above examples are literal interpretations of the Quran verse [5:45], the eternal word of Allah, which, according to their majoritarian scholars is imposed on humankind for its own good.

I shall expound on the second verse at another time:
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."

quote:
"Eye for an Eye has made the Islamic World blind"

[snow_white]

good one again..

and that loser thinks that i need to get more info on ismailism. Unlike he dunno what is he talking about.

i thought i wud really gain more info on this site and i forethought that i might make some good friends here. I guess i was wrong. people are just rude.

Oh by the way i am a girl..*snow_white*

[Virgo2]

Dear logical,

You have made valid points.I suggest you read introduction to Sura V and the footnote to the ayah you quoted.

The Quran
005.045
YUSUFALI: We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

I think this was ordained in the Bible, Torah, etc. All Allah's books, however, in the Qur'an Allah S.W.T. says but if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

This last sentence is very important. Allah S.W.T. says that when a wrong-doer remits charity, etc. he should be let go - this is His message and if people still persist in eye for eye then they are no better than wrong doers.

What the Saudis and Iranians did and do to their people is not what the Qur'an has ordained, brother. They only follow how the message to suit their agendas.

Take for example - Jihad - How twisted is their interpretation. Look who their leaders are? Then Look at our Jihad - our Imam is asking us to help him fight poverty, illiteracy, etc.

Brother Nagib,

I do not know how long you were in Salamieh or Syria. What I have stated is true. However, I am no judge of anybody's Iman. The fact that Ismailis in Syria do not attend JK does not mean they are any less Imani. They are probably more Imani than Khojas Ismaili as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. It is a fact that Syrian Ismailis do not attend JK as we Khojas do. Even the Council members did not attend JK on Navroz and other religious days in Damascus. I think Syrians are the most hospitable people in the Arab world than any Middle Easterner in the world and the Saudis are the worst followed by Egyptians.

I agree with you about the treatment of Syrians by our Khoja Ismailis from Aiglemont. I heard about it too and I was very unhappy. However, that has got nothing to do with Salamiehans leaving faith. Between late 1997 and 1998 the number of Salamiehans leaving the faith was an average of one a day. That is why Imam's delegation came from Aiglemont.

As for the Farman you quoted from Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah A.S., I regret to say that I agree with brother razinizar.

HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI

Fakat and J are the key words. Please re-read the words.

I take the sentence to read as: Hakikati momans do not fast only (fakat) in the month of Ramazan but...

Virgo2

[logical]

Dear Virgo2,
You think the concept of charity in the 7th century Islam was in contempory terms?

And, please the Saudis or Iranians or those that follow their Zahiri/Shariati Islam - as laid out by their scholars, do not need you or any apologists to tell them that they are wrong. What they follow has been laid out by their jurist-scholars and they do Taqlid to it. The more literal you get in a Zahiri form of Islam the more extreme one becomes.

Here, this is what I mean:

Dear logical,

You have made valid points.I suggest you read introduction to Sura V and the footnote to the ayah you quoted.

The Quran
005.045
YUSUFALI: We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

I think this was ordained in the Bible, Torah, etc. All Allah's books, however, in the Qur'an Allah S.W.T. says but if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

This last sentence is very important. Allah S.W.T. says that when a wrong-doer remits charity, etc. he should be let go - this is His message and if people still persist in eye for eye then they are no better than wrong doers.

Dear Virgo2 Yaar,

I had posted another paragraph after the particular aya 5:45 so that you may not have this confusion or, this:
"Under Sharia'h the injured party has the option to remit or forego retaliation and take blood-wit or an indemnity or compensation in money or in goods or livestock in an agrarian economy. This option is known as "diya." ( Blood money).

The above clarification for Charity is based on the following Quranic ayat [2:178]and sunnah of the prophet accoding to the scholars of Islam that follow zaheri Islam:

Quran 002.178
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 20:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
For the children of Israel the punishment for crime was Al-Qisas only (i.e., the law of equality in punishment) and the payment of Blood money was not permitted as an alternate. But Allah said to this nation (Muslims): 'O you who believe! Qisas is prescribed for you in case of murder, .....(up to) ...end of the Verse. (2.178)

Ibn 'Abbas added: Remission (forgiveness) in this Verse, means to accept the Blood-money in an intentional murder. Ibn 'Abbas added: The Verse: 'Then the relatives should demand Blood-money in a reasonable manner.' (2.178) means that the demand should be reasonable and it is to be compensated with handsome gratitude

Are we clear my friend. And, diyat(Charity) also includes GANG RAPE or marrying off your daughters to settle a fued.

What the Saudis and Iranians did and do to their people is not what the Qur'an has ordained, brother. They only follow how the message to suit their agendas.

Take for example - Jihad - How twisted is their interpretation. Look who their leaders are? Then Look at our Jihad - our Imam is asking us to help him fight poverty, illiteracy, etc.

What they do-again, is follow literal Quran and examples of the Prophet - as narrated and called "Divinely-inspired" by their scholars.

I guess you know as much about Zaheri Islam as you do about Batini Islam and it seems you have been around with all the time to educate yourself.

Brother Nagib,

As for the Farman you quoted from Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah A.S., I regret to say that I agree with brother razinizar.

HAKIKATI MOMAN FAKAT RAMZAN MAHINAMA(N)J ROJA RAKHTA NATHI

Fakat and J are the key words. Please re-read the words.

I take the sentence to read as: Hakikati momans do not fast only (fakat) in the month of Ramazan but...

Virgo2

Tell me - What is a hakikati fast/roza?

If you choose to do shariati fast for one month then go ahead. Just do not expect others to follow you. In the end it is a personal choice.

Just like leaving Shariati Islam is a personal choice for these Britishers - just for example:
Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family
One estimate suggests that as many as 15 per cent of Muslims in Western societies have lost their faith, which would mean that in Britain there are about 200,000 apostates....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 84,00.html

[logical]

I appreciate your indulgence. If I could quote from the ayat posted by Virgo2:

"....Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks."-Qur'an, Al-Baqara,Surah 2:183-185

"Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty"
So, Is the load of fasting 30 days - easy?

So, who eases the load for you?

I couldn't get an appointment to see my doctor for 2 weeks because he was fasting and came in when he felt like it. Or, muslims in Canada demanding special previleges during Ramadhan - to ease their load.

In the Hadith of Miraj compiled by Bukhari - a sunni scholar-jurist:
The prophet flew to the Heaven on a mule - Burak, to meet with Allah and to negotiate the 50 namaz per day (one every 48 minutes)that was required down to 5 namaz per day.

So, who eases the burden now?

One can claim that Islam -the Shariati version, is perfect and has all the answers and is a blessing for all mankind.
But the TRUTH is otherwise.

The christians made the same claim when they were following the Old Testament (Torah, Talmud) & New Testament (Bible) and, the religion had the same ugliness -packaged as Allah's laws until they reformed and gave the Old Testament the boot. Now they follow the bible - teachings of Jesus that were compiled by his earlier disciples.

The shariati Islam will have their reformation. They -screaming & ranting will be brought into Humanity.

[Virgo2]

Dear Virgo2,
You think the concept of charity in the 7th century Islam was in contempory terms?

Yes, I do. I think Muslims at that time were more charitable than they are today. I am not going to compare them to the Ismailis, but, yes, they were. After Mowla Ali, abu Bakar was the most charitable person. I heard that in Rajani’s waez.

And, please the Saudis or Iranians or those that follow their Zahiri/Shariati Islam - as laid out by their scholars, do not need you or any apologists to tell them that they are wrong. What they follow has been laid out by their jurist-scholars and they do Taqlid to it. The more literal you get in a Zahiri form of Islam the more extreme one becomes.

That is why our Imam has told us to use our intellect. We do not have to take everything literally.


Dear Logical, if you were to rationalize what I am saying, you will see that you and I are on the same page. I am not in favour of anything these Saudis and Iranians are doing and neither are you. Please re-read my post. I have repeatedly said that I do not agree with them, neither do you. I have said that they are led by the ignorant Mullahs and you are saying :” What they follow has been laid out by their jurist-scholars and they do Taqlid to it.” Is my position any different from yours? Who were their jurist-scholars? Likes of Maududi, Akhu Muhsin, Juvayni. And in the present day we have the Khomeinis, Nasrullah, UBL, and Jamat-e-Islami. They are not literally interpreting the Qur’an they are misinterpreting the Qur’an for their ignorant masses, in order to save their skins and earn their lievelihood. Why are they against education? Because they know, the day their people get education (except for Iranians) they will be doomed.

However, the revelations of Qur’an were time bound and the revelations came to address what was happening at the time. Ask any Ismaili scholar, and he will say so.

Here, this is what I mean:

Dear Virgo2 Yaar,

I had posted another paragraph after the particular aya 5:45 so that you may not have this confusion or, this:
"Under Sharia'h the injured party has the option to remit or forego retaliation and take blood-wit or an indemnity or compensation in money or in goods or livestock in an agrarian economy. This option is known as "diya." ( Blood money).

At the time it was considered blood money. Nowadays, in the civilized society like the U.S. they are electrocuted, hanged or given lethal injection. What would you call this? Eye for Eye, Life for Life? Now, examine the Sharia. Allah has asked to forgive the party and take a compensation. What is better? Also, need I remind you our own history? What did the Assassins do? They had their own doctrines which differed from the majority so they were being persecuted. They did not accept this sitting back. They retaliated by killing their enemies. Sometimes, they even killed innocent people.

Hasan bin Sabah had his son stoned to death in open because his son took sharab. Was that right? Albeit, he said that the son had breached Imam’s farman against sharab. How many farmans, we Ismailis, breach? Should we all be stoned to death? Hassan bin Sabah's son asked to be pardoned but he had him stoned to death anyway, because Hassan had sharab drinkers stoned to death. This was his law, no pardon.

How many enemies did Mowla Ali A.S. kill? He cut Umru into two. Was he wrong in killing enemies of Islam?

The above clarification for Charity is based on the following Quranic ayat [2:178]and sunnah of the prophet accoding to the scholars of Islam that follow zaheri Islam:

Quran 002.178
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 20:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
For the children of Israel the punishment for crime was Al-Qisas only (i.e., the law of equality in punishment) and the payment of Blood money was not permitted as an alternate. But Allah said to this nation (Muslims): 'O you who believe! Qisas is prescribed for you in case of murder, .....(up to) ...end of the Verse. (2.178)

Ibn 'Abbas added: Remission (forgiveness) in this Verse, means to accept the Blood-money in an intentional murder. Ibn 'Abbas added: The Verse: 'Then the relatives should demand Blood-money in a reasonable manner.' (2.178) means that the demand should be reasonable and it is to be compensated with handsome gratitude

Are we clear my friend. And, diyat(Charity) also includes GANG RAPE or marrying off your daughters to settle a fued.

I do not think diyat equals gang rape is mentioned in the Qur’an. If some Muslims take it as gang rape, then I think they are wrong. In villages in Pakistan this is common but all the modern day jurists in civilized countries agree that this is not prescribed by the Qur’an or the Prophet.

Prophet of Islam was not ignorant. He was divinely inspired and those who ascribe gang rape as his sunnah, are false. He would never permit this. He was most kind towards women. You should know better. I think now you have not only vilified the Qur’an but the Prophet of Islam too, from whose progeny our Imam has come. If any Muslim claims gang rape as the Sunnah of the Prophet, then you, an intelligent being, should disregard it because you know, and I know, that this can never ever be the Sunnah of the Prophet. You have been given intellect, use it brother.

What they do-again, is follow literal Quran and examples of the Prophet - as narrated and called "Divinely-inspired" by their scholars.

Because these people follow the literal interpretation,
Do you think we, Ismailis should not follow the Qur’an. You, who claims to follow the Imam’s farman, forget that Imam has asked us to read the passages of Qur’an that are important to our faith? This farman was read during Lailatul Qadr. Again brother, the farman that was quoted by Nagib does not prove that Imam had said not to fast. The Prophet had himself said that when a Momin fasts during the month of Ramadhan, he should refrain from committing sins. That does not mean he should commit sins in other months. This is what the Imam is also saying, ethat True Momins should refrain from sins 365 days. You and I know this is not possible, but we should try. You have a right to interpret it as you wish and I have a right to interpret it as I wish. But do not be judgemental. You do not know my Iman and I do not know yours. Following Sharia does not make me a non_ismaili nor a bad Ismaili.


I have already told you that what seems not agreeable to us, we should not follow and refrain from criticizing others. Imam has told us to use our intellect. If the rozas make no sense to you intellectually, refrain from fasting – however, we have no right to condemn the Qur’an because we do not understand what is the batin aspect of certain verses, only Imam knows it. Every Sura has a zaheri and a batiuni aspect.. Why blame the Qur’an or the Prophet of Islam for what the “majoritans” do. Then you guys wonder why non-Ismaili Muslims call us Kafirs. There are non-Ismailis visiting this site and they carry these posts to their sites. I do not think Imam would be happy to hear that we, Ismailis, condemn the Qur’an and the Prophet and also quote and misquote farmans to prove our points.

Tell me - What is a hakikati fast/roza?

Hakikati Roza is to abstain from sins. Shariati Roza is to abstain from food and sins. This is what the prophet had said and this is what the Imam has said. And this is how I believe. This is how I interpret the farman. I do not care what other Muslims do and how they fast. They are killing each other in Iraq during this holy month. Allah S.W.T. says in the Qur’an, and Imam has quoted this to the Press, and I am sure they are reading it in this month, that a life saved is a mankind saved and life destroyed is a mankind destroyed. How many mankinds have they been destroying in this Holy month? Now, am I going to condemn the Qur’an because of all the killings at the hands of some misguided Muslims? God has given me intellect to be used, not to be abused. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah A.S. has also said to do a lot of Ibadat during the month of Ramadhan. This farman was read out in JK at the commencement of Ramadhan, on Chandrat.

Just like leaving Shariati Islam is a personal choice for these Britishers - just for example:
Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family
One estimate suggests that as many as 15 per cent of Muslims in Western societies have lost their faith, which would mean that in Britain there are about 200,000 apostates....

Brother, Islam is the fastest growing religion in UK and US as per statistics. In spite of all the atrocities that are committed in the name of Islam, people are converting to Islam. We Ismaili Muslims follow Islam too. Non-Muslims call us by other names. Who are we? Muslims or non-Muslims? Please tell me.

After reading the post in Wuzu section about men coming out of the JK bathrooms and not washing their hands, I thought, may be the Prophet was right in prescribing Wuzu. Those Ignorant Muslims were dirty and probably did not wash their hands. However, we Ismaili Muslims are the most educated ones but we do not wash hands after using the washrooms. We do not need Sharia to tell us this, simple common sense is enough. Shame on us. We hold the Tasbih with the same hand and do du’a and drink Niyaz with those hands. If only the Mukhisaheb knew where the hand been before the man came to offer the dua karavi. May be he should keep antibacterial soap under his Pat.

There was a farman of the Present Imam in Pakistan wherein he had said that cleanliness of body before prayers or coming to Jamat Khana is an Islamic tradition. Tell me he did not make that farman? Tell me our ginans do not tell us to nahi dhoi ne JK avu.

The Sharia about wuzu was prescribed for those people who were dirty. we Ismaili Muslims have done away with Wuzu, but does that also mean we do away with cleanliness before our prayers? Tell me you follow hakikati wuzu when you go to JK. You do not wash your hands and private parts and the rest of your body because you are not going to use any of your limbs or parts to commit sins. Rozas were probably (please read carefully, I said probably, I do not know the real reason)prescribed because of health reasons too. However, there are rozas in Hindu, Budhist, Jewish and Christian traditions too. Whatever the reasons, I think rozas create a great awareness. As an Ismaili Muslim, if I am fasting, I would not swear at someone who annoyed me because I know that if I do, my fast would be useless. I will be on my best guard than I would normally be. Rozas instill discipline in you.

"Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty"
So, Is the load of fasting 30 days - easy?

Yes, it certainly is easy, and what may seem a “load” to you seems very gratifying to me and some of my friends. We all agree that instead of eating 3 times a day, may be once a day after Ramadhan would be good for our health and that less food helps us to concentrate on our prayers and Ibadat and keeps us in good shape. Anything wrong with that? Does that seem like a burden?

I couldn't get an appointment to see my doctor for 2 weeks because he was fasting and came in when he felt like it. Or, muslims in Canada demanding special previleges during Ramadhan - to ease their load.

Don’t blame the Qur’an or the Prophet for that. Prophet never told people to stop working and neither did the Qur’an. Your doctor is wrong and so are those Muslims who take off from work in Islamic nations. Work should not stop.

In the Hadith of Miraj compiled by Bukhari - a sunni scholar-jurist:
The prophet flew to the Heaven on a mule - Burak, to meet with Allah and to negotiate the 50 namaz per day (one every 48 minutes)that was required down to 5 namaz per day.


So, who eases the burden now?

Burak was not a mule, it was a horse as per our ginans. According to our Ginans also this was a spiritual journey.

Our imam has made it simple for us. I am not going to speak for the Muslims. Our Imam has said that “every free minute we have, we should remember Allah”. This is more than five times namaz. At least they say five times namaz and they are done. But in addition to our 3 duas, and morning baytul khayal we are reminded to remember Allah S.W.T. every second we have free. Since Imam’s farmans in the 80s, I carry tapes in my car, on the train and when I walk I listen to tasbis on my walkman. I am not saying I do this all the time, but most of the time. Do you think this is a burden? Remembering Allah is a burden? On the contrary, it has changed my life. I am happier and at peace.

In Sur LXXIII, ayahs 7 and 8 ( my ayahs may be a bit off because I have a very, very old copy and I have noticed they do not match with others)

7. True, there is for thee By day prolonged occupation With ordinary duties
8. But keep in rememberance the name of thy Lord and devote thyself To Him whole-heartedly.

Is this any different from our Imam’s farmans? And you are telling me Qur’an is violent, burdensome?

Many times even the Imam has quoted the Qur’an so who are we to say that the prescriptions of the Qur’an are violent and burdensome and we should not follow the Qur’an. When the Imam says, to stop reading the Qur’an and stop fasting, I shall do so.

One can claim that Islam -the Shariati version, is perfect and has all the answers and is a blessing for all mankind.
But the TRUTH is otherwise.

Islam is a blessing for mankind only when we maintain a balance as the Imam has told us to. Imam has said in his interviews, Islam is a way of Life. What does that mean? Islam is our religion, our interpretation is different from others. To criticize other’s beliefs or interpretation is wrong. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah says in a farman read in chandrat “koi dinbhai ni gilla gibat karvi nahi” – All human beings have a “din” and hence they are our brothers and sisters, with different interpretation. I take it Islam is our din and Ismailism is our Tariqah, and hence we should not criticize any Muslim, including our own, or for that matter any faith. To you, it may or may not seem that Imam is speaking of Ismailis only, however, I interpret it differently. I do not think Imam wants us to criticize any faith.

The christians made the same claim when they were following the Old Testament (Torah, Talmud) & New Testament (Bible) and, the religion had the same ugliness -packaged as Allah's laws until they reformed and gave the Old Testament the boot. Now they follow the bible - teachings of Jesus that were compiled by his earlier disciples.

I don’t think they have given the Old Testament the boot. They have changed it to suit themselves. They have made so many changes to the Old and New Testaments that they do not know what was actually revealed.

The shariati Islam will have their reformation.

The prescriptions of the Qur’an will never change but Inshallah, they will be interpreted intelligently to suit the changing times, until then we have to put up with their screaming and ranting

Virgo2

[logical]

Dear friends,
I hope the info contained herein assists in understanding Islam a bit better. The first section deals with matters of Fasting and second section with the time when Ismailis were zaheris or shariatis and good discussion on Allah's law that ordains Life for life, Eye for an Eye and how loopholes in those Allah's laws are exploited to commit murder. As always, I stand by what I write.

Section I
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"Prophet of Islam was not ignorant. He was divinely inspired and those who ascribe gang rape as his sunnah, are false. He would never permit this. He was most kind towards women. You should know better. I think now you have not only vilified the Qur’an but the Prophet of Islam too, from whose progeny our Imam has come. If any Muslim claims gang rape as the Sunnah of the Prophet, then you, an intelligent being, should disregard it because you know, and I know, that this can never ever be the Sunnah of the Prophet. You have been given intellect, use it brother."

Virgo2 and Readers,
Have you read the seerah, hadiths or the sunnah of the prophet as taught by the shariati sunni Islam? And, their madhzabs are all based on these sunnah which according to them is the "quran in action". A similar sunnah is followed by the 12'er shias with its misogyny but then there is no Imam for them to correct or validate their sunnah or islam in action. Should you not be accusing them of vilification of the prophet - his memory, his kindness, his intelligence?

It is only with the Ismaili tariqa with its hereditary ahle bayt Imam who has made Islam into a thinking man's faith that we can and, here I can quote you: "disregard it because you know, and I know, that this can never ever be the Sunnah of the Prophet". And, this emphasis: "And, only because we use the God-given gift of Reason?intellect."

The ugliness does exist in the "quran in action" of the majoritarian and major abuses are commited in its name. And, you are exhorting that I should turn a blind eye and not comment on them. Because muslims are not commiting them, they can never do those things. It is conspiracy created by the christians, the jews, the hindus, and the other fodders of hell-fire.

Next time a shariati muslim states that Islam is a Religion of Peace or Allah of Islam is Rahaman & Rahim. Pls ask him to relate those claims with their medeival interpretations of religion and, you will find that their "islam in action" is just the opposite. But, hey - they fast during Ramadhan. So, "let's be like them" .

"Don’t blame the Qur’an or the Prophet for that. Prophet never told people to stop working and neither did the Qur’an. Your doctor is wrong and so are those Muslims who take off from work in Islamic nations. Work should not stop."

You could have -with open mind, done a little research.
All islamic countries have legislated special previleges during Ramazan, like short work-week, more time off for prayers, etc. Worl not only stops, it suffers. I remember reading a report on the monetary cost of Ramadzan for muslim countries and it was exhorbitant.
So, yes - the month of Ramadhan is a burden that is keeping muslims in poverty. And, they should blame the Quran.

Do you think we, Ismailis should not follow the Qur’an. You, who claims to follow the Imam’s farman, forget that Imam has asked us to read the passages of Qur’an that are important to our faith? This farman was read during Lailatul Qadr. Again brother, the farman that was quoted by Nagib does not prove that Imam had said not to fast. The Prophet had himself said that when a Momin fasts during the month of Ramadhan, he should refrain from committing sins. That does not mean he should commit sins in other months. This is what the Imam is also saying, ethat True Momins should refrain from sins 365 days. You and I know this is not possible, but we should try. You have a right to interpret it as you wish and I have a right to interpret it as I wish. But do not be judgemental. You do not know my Iman and I do not know yours. Following Sharia does not make me a non_ismaili nor a bad Ismaili

Was that not you who said that "after bayat, prayers, dasondh, everything else is one's choice" ; So, what changed that?
Yet, you insist on interpreting Imam SMS' firman on Haqiqati fast for your purpose. Nobody refuses your interpretation to fast during the month of Ramadhan. To fast during Ramazan is a personal choice. If you feel strongly that fasting during ramadhan be made mandatory then beseech MHI to issue such a firman .
The zaheri fast is not my choice and never shall be. And, I do not need Allah's prophet to instruct me on the one & only way to clean myself after toilet or before prayers. Thank you.

What's next after shariati fast? why not make the following -for example, mandatory as well. Let's join other muslims to establish the shariah in North America, Europe and pretend there is spirituality in the ritual of taking one's life or there is hidden meanings there:
-"Allah has ordained Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES - referred in the quran as "Those whom the Right Hand Posseses".

The pagan Bushmen of the Kalahari are superior beings over those who would, for example, literally follow the above literalist fundamentalist ideologies of Islam.

However, the revelations of Qur’an were time bound and the revelations came to address what was happening at the time. Ask any Ismaili scholar, and he will say so.

Do you notice the confusion with your previous quote?
The Ismaili scholar will also clarify the sections of the quran that are time-less (eternal)or comprise the Essence of the Faith.
Esoteric interpretation of quran will lead one to same conclusion. Most of quran is bareft of any spirituality, like those quoted above or "Time-bound". To follow those, for example is to INSULT Allah who is Rehman & Rahim and not a ranting, rampaging maniac.
QUIZ:
Are the following Time-Less(eternal) or Time-Bound (expired)?
Bukhari 6:60:80
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples that ever was, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.
Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Section II
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"At the time it was considered blood money. Nowadays, in the civilized society like the U.S. they are electrocuted, hanged or given lethal injection. What would you call this? Eye for Eye, Life for Life? Now, examine the Sharia. Allah has asked to forgive the party and take a compensation. What is better? Also, need I remind you our own history? What did the Assassins do? They had their own doctrines which differed from the majority so they were being persecuted. They did not accept this sitting back. They retaliated by killing their enemies. Sometimes, they even killed innocent people.

Hasan bin Sabah had his son stoned to death in open because his son took sharab. Was that right? Albeit, he said that the son had breached Imam’s farman against sharab. How many farmans, we Ismailis, breach? Should we all be stoned to death? Hassan bin Sabah's son asked to be pardoned but he had him stoned to death anyway, because Hassan had sharab drinkers stoned to death. This was his law, no pardon.

How many enemies did Mowla Ali A.S. kill? He cut Umru into two. Was he wrong in killing enemies of Islam? "

Two separate matters being raised here and dealt separately:
Who is better - you ask?
Allah's laws or Man's law?
If He is truly Allah then He has no business "Ordaining the taking of another life that is sacred" because "Killing one is like killing all mankind".
I can see these laws as Time-Bound but not for all eternity or Time-Less. Today, murder, like honour killing is endemic in Islamic society. They murder with impunity and use loopholes in Allah's laws to get away with it. These loopholes in Allah's laws are discussed in the next section. They rant: Allah is Just. But, Under Allah's laws: No muslims can be killed in qisas (Retaliation) for killing a non-muslim.
The blood money (diyat or compensation aka charity according to HQ5:45) is not same for all religions:

In Saudi Arabia when a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the prescribed blood money rates are as follows
100,000 if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu Man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman.
The life of a Hindu man is 6.7 % of that of a muslim man. Is the Allah of the Shariati/Literalist Islam - Rehman or Rahim, I ask the readers?
Follow an Esoteric Allah, God, Khuda, Ali, Iswar ..are all Names and, asociated with kindness. Which, very appropriately brings us to the next part which this intellectually-challenged Virgo2 is using to make points in favour of Shariati Islam. But, is he?

Re: Your second part about Ismaili history and the mention of the Assasins, Hassan bin Sabah and even Hazrat Ali.
Were they not commited when Ismailism or Islam followed a shariati Islam.?
More reason to reject Shariati version of any God's religion.

Nobody should follow God that cannot be understood by Reason. Or, if God is equated with violence & evil then it is not God but the anti-God.
The Alamuti Imam who introduced Ismailis to the Esoteric or Spiritual Faith over the Shariati Islam of shias or sunnis that was being followed at Alamut is confirmed over time that one sect of the Ismailis are the saved sect and all others have had their essence sucked dry by obscurrantism & misogyny.

"I do not think diyat equals gang rape is mentioned in the Qur’an. If some Muslims take it as gang rape, then I think they are wrong. In villages in Pakistan this is common but all the modern day jurists in civilized countries agree that this is not prescribed by the Qur’an or the Prophet.
Prophet of Islam was not ignorant. He was divinely inspired and those who ascribe gang rape as his sunnah, are false. He would never permit this. He was most kind towards women. You should know better. I think now you have not only vilified the Qur’an but the Prophet of Islam too, from whose progeny our Imam has come. If any Muslim claims gang rape as the Sunnah of the Prophet, then you, an intelligent being, should disregard it because you know, and I know, that this can never ever be the Sunnah of the Prophet. You have been given intellect, use it brother."

You're asking me to look the other way if a religious cime is being committed, like gang rape or honour killing, etc and to deny its linkage with the teachings of Prophet Muhammad as taught by Fundamentalist Islam. I repeat - As taught by Fundamentalist Islam. In the Ismaili tariqa, the sunnah to be valid has to be referred by the Imam and such sunnah would never exist . But it does exist for Sunni Islam.

Gang Rape & Honour Killing are very much Islamically motivated. To say otherwise is a lie. Literalist Quran & Sunnah asks men to be "harsh if their women are disobedient" or suspected of "lewd behaviour"- even" beat/scourge" them and "to treat them like a tilth".

A women in any muslim country may be brutally killed by her husband, parents, brothers or relatives if she has deemed to have brought dishonour to the family. Here is how the murderer gets off, using the loophole in Allah's law:
Murder is a compoundable offence in accordance with the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance based on the Quran where a man who killed a woman for honour, could settle out of court by paying compensation (DIYAT) to the victim's relatives. The accused could negotiate pardon with the victim's family under the so-called Islamic provisions and courts would have no further jurisdiction.

How about Gang Rape as per Quranically ordained Qisas & Diyat? We can take the highly publicized case of one Mukhtaran Mai of Pakistan whose 12 year old brother, Shakoor, was seen associating with the daughter of the chief of a Rich Clan- bringing them shame. Shakoor, is arrested by the police on charges of adultery.
The village council suggests that Shakoor marry the girl he was seen with and Mai, a divorcee, be married to a Mastoi man.
The Mastois reportedly reject the deal, insisting that zina (adultery) must be settled with zina; or, according to the eye-for-an-eye principle of Qisas & Diyat.
Mukhtar Mai is called to the council to apologise for her brother's conduct.
She appears and apologises; but, is dragged to a nearby hut and gang raped allegedly by four men.
The Mastois inform the police that the dispute has been settled and Shakoor is released.

The perpetrators were arrested only to be set free. You think Pakistan's secular courts were going to fight the mullahs and Allah's law.

So, dear Voirgo2,
What keeps such an ideology intact and its followers in check?
It's threats, co-ercion and often, murder. This is aptly discussed under:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 84,00.html

Thanks to the Divine and, He is divinely Benevolent & Merciful for not letting such ugliness manifest in the Ismaili tariqa.

[logical]

The above discussion on the Quranic Command/injunction of "Eye for Eye, life for life.."[5:45] is a part (Qisas & Diyat) of the Islamic Legal System.

The other Divinely-ordained injunction of Zina fails to Differentiate between Rape & Adultery, unless the victim of Rape can substantiate her charges by providing FOUR (4) eye witnesses - male, adult & Muslims who witnessed the rape. If she can't and almost all cannot then, there is no crime commited by the rapist. HOWEVER, pls follow this, now there is a charge of crime againt the victim.
How?
Because she failed to provide the required number of eye witnesses as divinely ordained by their Sharia'h. As such, she is charged for having incited the sexual act and is charged with adultery (zina). The penalty for zina varies and in its extreme it is stoning to death (Rajm). The victim is -for rest of her life - an outcast and an easy prey for -honour Killing.

HOWEVER, I hope you all are following:
Beauty or Ugliness is in the eye of the beholder! The above legal system is glorified by Supreme Court Chief Justice as 'Islam a perfect legal system for humanity’ . I've highlighted in bold the sections where he is talking about diyat and, he as Chief Justice is aware of the loopholes (discussed in my previous post) or grave injustices in the zina system. But he still glorifies the kindness, truthfulness, etc of such a sunnah-based system (sharia'h):

Sunday, October 22, 2006
‘Islam a perfect legal system for humanity’
LAHORE: The Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) provided a complete and comprehensive legal system and code of conduct not only for Muslims, but the entire human race, said Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry on Saturday. Speaking at a Seerat-ul-Nabi conference, organised by the Supreme Court Bar Association (SCBA),

he said that the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was a vital part of this code. “Like all other fields of life, the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) sunnah guides us in the realm of law as well,” he said. He said that the right to forgive someone accused of murder was given to the state in European countries, but Islam had given this right to the legal heirs of the deceased, which was a boon for both the murderer’s and the bereaved families. “

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) provided guidelines to deal with not only criminal, but also civil matters. He preached kindness, moderation, sincerity, modesty and truthfulness,” he said. Speaking at the occasion, SCBA President Justice (r) Malik Muhammad Qayyum said that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) gave the first written constitution to the world in the shape of the Medina Pact. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 006_pg7_26

[hina81590]

i have a friend who is a sunni. She keeps telling me that i should have fasted this past Ramadan because it is one of the five pillars of Islam and it is also stated to do so in the Quran. The Quran also says that although fasting is more spiritual than physical, we should still sustain from eating or drinking from sunrise until sunset. It is required. Also, the Quran also states to perform salat everyday. Why do we not pray namaz? The masjid contains Qurans, JK doesn't. Doesn't that mean that the masjid is the correct place to be?? i dont know how to reply to her statements. please explain these things to me. Thanks

[logical]

I have a friend who is a sunni. She keeps telling me that i should have fasted this past Ramadan because it is one of the five pillars of Islam and it is also stated to do so in the Quran. The Quran also says that although fasting is more spiritual than physical, we should still sustain from eating or drinking from sunrise until sunset. It is required. Also, the Quran also states to perform salat everyday. Why do we not pray namaz?

Hina,

There is no verse in the Quran that says: Islam is based upon 5 Pillars.
The Five Pillars, 5 namaz, and everything your sunni friend has to say about Islam comes from their sunnah, as compiled by sunni scholars and taught by their sunni scholars.
The shias have different understanding of pillars as do ismailis and both reject sunni version of sunnah and hadiths.

The ismaili emphasis is on following the truth or haqaiq. In the case of Fast it is being Righteous, avoiding sins throught the year including month of Ramadhan. Pls refer to br. nagib re: haqiqi fast in this thread.

Ismaili tariqa also stresses fundamental values -repeatedly stressed in the Quran i.e. justice ('adl), benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom (hikmah) and these are Allah's names too. Thus a good Muslim should be just, benevolent (for humanity), compassionate and wise. If he does not practice these values he cannot qualify as good Muslim.

Does fundamental values of quran like justice ('adl), benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom (hikmah) exist under Sunni Islam? Hina should ask her sunni friend.
If they do then, they are not discernable. It is all about Jihad and denigrating christians & jews and hindus and other muslims as disbelievers with all the ugliness of their sharia'h put into place - again by their scholars.

The masjid contains Qurans, JK doesn't. Doesn't that mean that the masjid is the correct place to be?? i dont know how to reply to her statements. please explain these things to me. Thanks

If they are prostrating, kissing or fondling the quran - a book made of papers and by men then, they (sunnis) commit shirk.

You also ask or suggest - sunni mosque being the correct place to be? Well, considering that you are a woman - based on your name then, according to the original sunnah, you - a woman has no place in the mosque. Women are encouraged to say their namaz in the inner part of their houses. Even if you are allowed then pls enter through a side door, sit in the rear and leave before men.