I am not trying to debate the validity of "Ali Sahi Allah," rather I am considering an interpretation of the famous story of Nusayri and Hazrat Ali. To my knowledge, Hazrat Ali commanded Nusayri to no longer recite "Ali Sahi Allah." In a physical manner, Nusayri dis-obeyed the Imam and continued to recite "Ali Sahi Allah." For this action he was killed by the Imam himself. As the story goes, Hazrat Aly revived Nusayri and asked him again not to recite "Ali Sahi Allah." Nusayri, after witnessing the divine power of Allah in his resurrection, however, had an even stronger affirmation of his faith in Ali-Allah and continued to be killed and resurrected by Imam.
In my opinion, Imam was displaying punishment (killing Nusayri for being Na-Farmani) and mercy (resurrecting him because of his staunch faith), but more than this, he was using Nusayris faith in Ali Sahi Allah to prepare us for a lesson we faced in 1956.
When the Dua was changed in 1956, Ali Sahi Allah was removed from the Dua and we are now being instructed not to recite it, just as Nusayri was instructed not to do so 1400 years ago. We are now in Nusayris shoes.
On one hand, we can be "Na-Farmani" and recite Ali Sahi Allah against Imam's wishes.... or council's wishes in this case ;) ... On the other hand, we can stop saying it, and wonder what Hazrat Ali would have done if Nusayri just listened to His command and just stopped saying Ali Sahi Allah.
I would never feel comfortable going against the Imam's wish, and whether or not I say Ali Sahi Allah out loud, it will always be in my heart.
Discussion and all truths aside, I can not just sit back and watch how these important words were removed from our Dua, and how they are now considered to be "out-rageous"
What to do? Should we follow Nusayri's example? I don't like censoring myself, but I also don't want to start trouble in JK.
"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri
Ali-Sahi-Allah
Ya Ali Madad To All,
I am duplicating this message from my other post.
This is a very complex thing. Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah by his grace, told us the basic belifs of ismailis. Since there are only two major sufi thoughts; jamali and jalali (do not know english translation). Huma ost (jamali), Huma az ost (jalali). Now in the old dua we said Ali See Allah, this means that Ali and Allah are one. Now these days we say Ali Ullah it means Ali is from Allah. In this concept the whole theory of the ismaili doctrine has changed. Thats why Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously said "whatever is ruh" so we do not think about the physical body of the first Imam Ali. I am sorry i have very limited vocabulary in english so i cannot elaborate that much in english. Thanks
May Mowla Bless You All and Enlighten Your Soul.
I am duplicating this message from my other post.
This is a very complex thing. Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah by his grace, told us the basic belifs of ismailis. Since there are only two major sufi thoughts; jamali and jalali (do not know english translation). Huma ost (jamali), Huma az ost (jalali). Now in the old dua we said Ali See Allah, this means that Ali and Allah are one. Now these days we say Ali Ullah it means Ali is from Allah. In this concept the whole theory of the ismaili doctrine has changed. Thats why Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously said "whatever is ruh" so we do not think about the physical body of the first Imam Ali. I am sorry i have very limited vocabulary in english so i cannot elaborate that much in english. Thanks
May Mowla Bless You All and Enlighten Your Soul.
Thank you for your response, I agree with you completely. Ali-Ullah may philosophically be interpreted as Ali Sehi Allah, but there is no doubt that our Ismaili doctrine has changed dramatically by the substitution of these words.
Do you have any information about the Sufi philosphies of Jamali and Jalali? I vaguely remember these attributes as descriptions of Hazar Imam and Mowla Sultan Mohammed Shah, one being merciful, the other disciplinary.
If Ali Ullah replaces Sehi Allah, will our Ismaili doctrine of Imamat change in the generations ahead?
Do you have any information about the Sufi philosphies of Jamali and Jalali? I vaguely remember these attributes as descriptions of Hazar Imam and Mowla Sultan Mohammed Shah, one being merciful, the other disciplinary.
If Ali Ullah replaces Sehi Allah, will our Ismaili doctrine of Imamat change in the generations ahead?
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
The change made in Dua has not changed the concept or belief of Ismailis but it is made because of current situations.
The Dua we recite in Arabic today is by Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah and we should say it as it is.
As for the story you said there was discussion on it earlier.
This is what Nagib said on it
_________________________________________________
One day Hazrat Ali decided to cross a river with his army and asked Nusayri to find out where the water was shallow. Nusairy said "come on help me out here, how do I find out where to start?"
Hazrat Ali told him go and ask the fish whose name is ZamZama. He probably thought what a crazy thing to do but a Farman is a Farman right? [Yeah, I know, not everybody agrees with me on that, but anyway Nusairy did]
So he went and shouted "Zamzama, zamzama!" and 70,000 fishs answered "we are all zamzama, which Zamzama do you want to talk to?...". Now he has a BIG problem, he has no clue! So he returned and tells the Imam, too many fishs! Imam told him Zamzama bin [son of] Marmara. So Nusairy goes back, shouts again and 7,000 fishs reply. There he goes again and Imam says Zamzama bin Marmara bin Karkara.. finaly one fish answers "what do you want?" He says Imam wants to know where the water is shallow so he can guide his army through to cross the river to the other bank [obviously there is a lot of symbolism here"]
Now the cute little fish says, "are you stupid or what?" don't you think that the one who knows the name of all of my ancestors would not know where to cross the river? Don't bother me, man, I am already old and tired and I do not need that extra botheration from tiny sized brains like you!"
Now Nusairy knows something he did not knew before. There he goes shouting "Ali is Allah" all over the place like some here do...
Now, the least to say is that that was unwanted free publicity... so Hazrat Ali takes his sword and cut the throat of Nusairi.
Comes Salman Farsi He askes Hazrat Ali to give back life to Nusairi. Now you know that when a Mukhi or Kamadia request to Hazar Imam, he has a hard time refusing. So he gives back life to Nusairi.
Guess what, the guy starts yelling again "Ali Allah". Man, I can't believe this. This guy has a hard time understandind that zahir is zahir and batin is batin. So again Hazrat Ali cut his troat. Again Salman Farsi intercedes and so happens 70 times.
Sultan Muhammad Shah says in one of his farman that, that is the strenght of Iman and that the descendant of Nusairy will not have to answer on the day of Judgment.
____________________________________________________________
There is much more discussion on this story and its esoteric meanings in section of anectodes under topic "Do any one know?"
The Dua we recite in Arabic today is by Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah and we should say it as it is.
As for the story you said there was discussion on it earlier.
This is what Nagib said on it
_________________________________________________
One day Hazrat Ali decided to cross a river with his army and asked Nusayri to find out where the water was shallow. Nusairy said "come on help me out here, how do I find out where to start?"
Hazrat Ali told him go and ask the fish whose name is ZamZama. He probably thought what a crazy thing to do but a Farman is a Farman right? [Yeah, I know, not everybody agrees with me on that, but anyway Nusairy did]
So he went and shouted "Zamzama, zamzama!" and 70,000 fishs answered "we are all zamzama, which Zamzama do you want to talk to?...". Now he has a BIG problem, he has no clue! So he returned and tells the Imam, too many fishs! Imam told him Zamzama bin [son of] Marmara. So Nusairy goes back, shouts again and 7,000 fishs reply. There he goes again and Imam says Zamzama bin Marmara bin Karkara.. finaly one fish answers "what do you want?" He says Imam wants to know where the water is shallow so he can guide his army through to cross the river to the other bank [obviously there is a lot of symbolism here"]
Now the cute little fish says, "are you stupid or what?" don't you think that the one who knows the name of all of my ancestors would not know where to cross the river? Don't bother me, man, I am already old and tired and I do not need that extra botheration from tiny sized brains like you!"
Now Nusairy knows something he did not knew before. There he goes shouting "Ali is Allah" all over the place like some here do...
Now, the least to say is that that was unwanted free publicity... so Hazrat Ali takes his sword and cut the throat of Nusairi.
Comes Salman Farsi He askes Hazrat Ali to give back life to Nusairi. Now you know that when a Mukhi or Kamadia request to Hazar Imam, he has a hard time refusing. So he gives back life to Nusairi.
Guess what, the guy starts yelling again "Ali Allah". Man, I can't believe this. This guy has a hard time understandind that zahir is zahir and batin is batin. So again Hazrat Ali cut his troat. Again Salman Farsi intercedes and so happens 70 times.
Sultan Muhammad Shah says in one of his farman that, that is the strenght of Iman and that the descendant of Nusairy will not have to answer on the day of Judgment.
____________________________________________________________
There is much more discussion on this story and its esoteric meanings in section of anectodes under topic "Do any one know?"
Ali-Sahi-Allah
Ya Ali Madad To All Brothers and Sisters,
The concept of Ali-Sahi-Allah, is a concept of Vahdat al Wajood (oneness or in udru thoheed). There are two kinds of iman, one is Mansoori iman and the other is Nusarri iman. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously told us that we should keep Mansoori iman, which is my signature.
May Mowla Bless You All
The concept of Ali-Sahi-Allah, is a concept of Vahdat al Wajood (oneness or in udru thoheed). There are two kinds of iman, one is Mansoori iman and the other is Nusarri iman. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously told us that we should keep Mansoori iman, which is my signature.
May Mowla Bless You All
Re: Ali-Sahi-Allah
People are again confusing shariati (Outer form or Shell) with haqiqatti (The inner Truth).karimqazi wrote:Ya Ali Madad To All Brothers and Sisters,
The concept of Ali-Sahi-Allah, is a concept of Vahdat al Wajood (oneness or in udru thoheed). There are two kinds of iman, one is Mansoori iman and the other is Nusarri iman. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously told us that we should keep Mansoori iman, which is my signature.
May Mowla Bless You All
concept of Vahdat al Wajood (oneness or in urdu thoheed)
Translated:
Becoming one with the Divine where nothing exists but the His Divine Essence or Noor or TAUHEED. This is the Truth or haqaiq of the Ismaili tariqa.
TERMS like Ali sahi allah or ali un allah or His many Names are all shariati expressions of the Truth / HAQ:
utam sab kahee-e zaatee
or bhae sab naam seefaatee
The most exalted name is the essence; the rest are all it's forms.
re tu(n)hee ....
naa tin naam ne tthaam hae
naa bin naam ne tthaam re
jahaa(n) so naam bakhaaneeye(jo lo naam na kahiye)
sab vaa(n)ke hae naam re
O you, ...
He has no name nor any abode, yet he is not without a name nor an abode. When you attain the indescribable (nameless) state in meditation, all his names are encompassed there. [Pir Sadardin, Buj Nirinjan Part 3]
Becoming one with the Divine where nothing exists but the His Divine Essence or Noor or TAUHEED. This is the Truth or haqaiq of the Ismaili tariqa.
Ya Ali Madad To All,
Pir says in ginan, i do not have the exact translation, but its says from nothingness comes the point, from point comes knowledge, and from knowledge everything exists. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah says "Asal ma kaye nathoo theare mowla Murtaza Ali ek nanu roop dhariu" there was nothing at that time, Mowla Murtaza Ali became in little form.
Thanks
What is the difference between the Kalimah of our old Dua, wherein we used to recite 'Ali sahi Allah', and of the new Dua which recites "Aliyyullah"? We used to say Ali is truly Allah and now we say Ali is from Allah, but I have found out through people who know the Arabic language and they say Aliyullah are two seperate word. The word "Aliyyun" means "The Ali" and "Allah" means "The God". Hence, the phrase "Aliyyullah" means "The Ali, The God".
Hence we are still where we were in 1956. Can someone please clarify what we are supposed to believe in, is it Ali is from Allah or The Ali, The God.
I think the second one is more in line with our previous dua and I have heard it is in some of the old Dua books.
Hence we are still where we were in 1956. Can someone please clarify what we are supposed to believe in, is it Ali is from Allah or The Ali, The God.
I think the second one is more in line with our previous dua and I have heard it is in some of the old Dua books.
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_thaillestlunatic_
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:06 pm
I agree with _thaillestlunatic_ that it means the same.
During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:
"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.
A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378
On this particular issue it says:
"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "
My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.
During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:
"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.
A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378
On this particular issue it says:
"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "
My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.
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_thaillestlunatic_
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:06 pm
Karim, what I was trying to say is that even though Ali sahi allah means Aly is Allah and AliyullAllah means Aly is from Allah, I still interpret it to be the same. To me, it makes no difference which one I say, but both are correct since Mawlana Hazar Imam has not said anything about changing Aliyuallah to Aly Sahi Allah.
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zubair_mahamood
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:12 pm
- Contact:
YAM
Call it a potato or Potato it means the same, Call it “Ali Sahi Allah” or “Aliyyuallah” it means the same, call it “Ali from Allah” or “Ali is Allah” it means the same but both this term have specific purpose. People born in an Ismaili family can easily understand this term were as for me it took days of research to reach from “Ali from Allah” to “Ali is Allah”. The journey was so long that I even read article that are totally against our Faith, MHI and Noorani Family (which made my level of faith go down till 0.0001) . I didn’t read Old Dua so I can’t talk about it.
It all began when I started learning Dua (part two). In the beginning I accepted MHI as Prophet, I thought he is the one who speaks for Allah as Prophet Muhammad did but it was difficult to accept Ali (reason to accept MHI was Dedaar). Ali was difficult to digest, I thought the division between Shia and Sunni is due to political reasons. I thought everyone who is born as Shia or Sunni has there believes and follow it, I always had a Question how Allah will Judge one on The Judgement Day as both Sunni n Shia or even Non Muslim claim to be on true path reason for this was I saw Sunni n Shia or Non Muslims doing think that wear prohibited by Prophets and still claim to be “Janati” (People who have right to enter Heaven). At the same time both Muslims and non Muslims did something’s that need to be appreciate (ex: our family was helped by Non Muslim during rites in Mumbai and they safe our respect in all senses, it was same situation in Hyderabad Non Muslims were helped by Muslims) on many occasions I saw humanity prevail then religions believes or sentiments, which gave me answer to my question how Allah will Judge.
I wanted to know about Hazar Ali so meet Alwaaz Saab to discuss Mowlana Ali. He explained me about Ghadir Khumm and gave me Book on “Early Shia Thought”. I think this book had formal information which I already knew informally, that’s y instead of helping me it confused me as some facts mention were contrary to my beliefs.
Ex: On Page 79
It says “Al-Baqir did make a distinction between the office of a rasul (massager), nabi (prophet) and muhaddath (one who speaken to i.e., the imam) and the way they acquired their knowledge. Thus, according to Al-Baqir, a Messenger (rasul) is one who is inspired externally by the mediation of the archangel Jibrail. He may see the archangel and hear his words either in a dream or when awake. A prophet (nabi) either has vision of archangels without hearing them speaking, or hears voices of archangels without seeing figure. A muhaddath does not see supernatural beings, either in dreams or in a wakeful state, but hears voices. The imams, says Al-baqir, are the Muhaddathun mentioned in Quran”.
This Para was acceptable till Nabi and Rasul, if Imam don’t see supernatural being then how could I see Holy Noor was my question. Is Holy Noor natural or supernatural? If its is natural y can’t I see it when I wanted to see it again n again and if it supernatural then how could I see as according to above paragraph Imam can’t see supernatural being. Then I closed this book saying that it’s not for the one who has witnessed HOLY NOOR.
With all this questions I started reading interviews of MHI, articles written against MHI, compared them with claims made against him with my beliefs. One of website claims he is not the direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad which was so stupid that I pity on the sources of claims. I came across sermons of Mowlana Ali (http://heritage.ismaili.net/gallery/Haz ... to_16.html) in which he says “I am the light of God”. By comparing doctrines of Ismailies Beliefs which also claim that Ali is equal to Shah Karim, meaning that he is bearer of The Light of God and I witnessed it made me positive about Mowlana Ali. When I read all Sermons of Mowlana Ali I accepted it as I feel same about MHI although I didn’t come across sermons by MHI but His Holy Dedaar explained me everything.
By reading sermons of Mowlana Ali one can easily say that each claim made by him is Name of Allah like “I am The Creator = Al-Khaaliq”, “I am The First = Al-Awwal”, “I am The Last Al-Akhir” etc. look I believe in MHI as witnessed Holy Noor, I accepted Mowlana Ali as MHI says He is His direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad and I believe Ali is Allah with all my search and result. They are certain point which I didn’t mention as they don’t relate to this discussion.
When I concluded Ali is in fact Allah I denied it thinking that I am in love with MHI so I believe this way. Even in my interview with Traiqah board when they asked me what do think about MHI, I told he speaks for Allah. Today I say Ali is Allah well if some want to believe me or not it’s up to them. But if someone wants to hate me for telling this I would say everyone is accountable of his or her Deeds so leave me Allah will judge me.
Ali from Allah is easily acceptable in Zahra world. Ali is Allah is not acceptable which can also hamper efforts of Jamat activates in Muslim world. MHI better knows this Terms and he in a better place to Judge whether to include in our Dua or not, we should follow his instructions. Well I am in a way unlucky as I am still waiting for formal admission into Jamat. Ppl who have got access to JK are,,,,. SJD
Zubair
Call it a potato or Potato it means the same, Call it “Ali Sahi Allah” or “Aliyyuallah” it means the same, call it “Ali from Allah” or “Ali is Allah” it means the same but both this term have specific purpose. People born in an Ismaili family can easily understand this term were as for me it took days of research to reach from “Ali from Allah” to “Ali is Allah”. The journey was so long that I even read article that are totally against our Faith, MHI and Noorani Family (which made my level of faith go down till 0.0001) . I didn’t read Old Dua so I can’t talk about it.
It all began when I started learning Dua (part two). In the beginning I accepted MHI as Prophet, I thought he is the one who speaks for Allah as Prophet Muhammad did but it was difficult to accept Ali (reason to accept MHI was Dedaar). Ali was difficult to digest, I thought the division between Shia and Sunni is due to political reasons. I thought everyone who is born as Shia or Sunni has there believes and follow it, I always had a Question how Allah will Judge one on The Judgement Day as both Sunni n Shia or even Non Muslim claim to be on true path reason for this was I saw Sunni n Shia or Non Muslims doing think that wear prohibited by Prophets and still claim to be “Janati” (People who have right to enter Heaven). At the same time both Muslims and non Muslims did something’s that need to be appreciate (ex: our family was helped by Non Muslim during rites in Mumbai and they safe our respect in all senses, it was same situation in Hyderabad Non Muslims were helped by Muslims) on many occasions I saw humanity prevail then religions believes or sentiments, which gave me answer to my question how Allah will Judge.
I wanted to know about Hazar Ali so meet Alwaaz Saab to discuss Mowlana Ali. He explained me about Ghadir Khumm and gave me Book on “Early Shia Thought”. I think this book had formal information which I already knew informally, that’s y instead of helping me it confused me as some facts mention were contrary to my beliefs.
Ex: On Page 79
It says “Al-Baqir did make a distinction between the office of a rasul (massager), nabi (prophet) and muhaddath (one who speaken to i.e., the imam) and the way they acquired their knowledge. Thus, according to Al-Baqir, a Messenger (rasul) is one who is inspired externally by the mediation of the archangel Jibrail. He may see the archangel and hear his words either in a dream or when awake. A prophet (nabi) either has vision of archangels without hearing them speaking, or hears voices of archangels without seeing figure. A muhaddath does not see supernatural beings, either in dreams or in a wakeful state, but hears voices. The imams, says Al-baqir, are the Muhaddathun mentioned in Quran”.
This Para was acceptable till Nabi and Rasul, if Imam don’t see supernatural being then how could I see Holy Noor was my question. Is Holy Noor natural or supernatural? If its is natural y can’t I see it when I wanted to see it again n again and if it supernatural then how could I see as according to above paragraph Imam can’t see supernatural being. Then I closed this book saying that it’s not for the one who has witnessed HOLY NOOR.
With all this questions I started reading interviews of MHI, articles written against MHI, compared them with claims made against him with my beliefs. One of website claims he is not the direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad which was so stupid that I pity on the sources of claims. I came across sermons of Mowlana Ali (http://heritage.ismaili.net/gallery/Haz ... to_16.html) in which he says “I am the light of God”. By comparing doctrines of Ismailies Beliefs which also claim that Ali is equal to Shah Karim, meaning that he is bearer of The Light of God and I witnessed it made me positive about Mowlana Ali. When I read all Sermons of Mowlana Ali I accepted it as I feel same about MHI although I didn’t come across sermons by MHI but His Holy Dedaar explained me everything.
By reading sermons of Mowlana Ali one can easily say that each claim made by him is Name of Allah like “I am The Creator = Al-Khaaliq”, “I am The First = Al-Awwal”, “I am The Last Al-Akhir” etc. look I believe in MHI as witnessed Holy Noor, I accepted Mowlana Ali as MHI says He is His direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad and I believe Ali is Allah with all my search and result. They are certain point which I didn’t mention as they don’t relate to this discussion.
When I concluded Ali is in fact Allah I denied it thinking that I am in love with MHI so I believe this way. Even in my interview with Traiqah board when they asked me what do think about MHI, I told he speaks for Allah. Today I say Ali is Allah well if some want to believe me or not it’s up to them. But if someone wants to hate me for telling this I would say everyone is accountable of his or her Deeds so leave me Allah will judge me.
Ali from Allah is easily acceptable in Zahra world. Ali is Allah is not acceptable which can also hamper efforts of Jamat activates in Muslim world. MHI better knows this Terms and he in a better place to Judge whether to include in our Dua or not, we should follow his instructions. Well I am in a way unlucky as I am still waiting for formal admission into Jamat. Ppl who have got access to JK are,,,,. SJD
Zubair
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_thaillestlunatic_
- Posts: 179
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-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Aly Madad, I hope you are aware that in Islam, Prophet Muhammad is the last and Seal of all Prophets. We are taught since young that Hazrat Aly is our 1st Iman after Prophet Muhammad.zubair_mahamood wrote:YAM
"I accepted MHI as Prophet..."
Zubair
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. (33:40)
I don't understand why do you make strong statement like this on the internet. This is why we Ismailis are ridicule by other Muslims. Our MHI has so many times encouraged us to build bridges, is this how you intend to build bridges? The least we can do as Ismailis is to put our Imam in an awkward position within the Ummah.
We do accept prophet Muhammed (PBUH) as our LAST Prophet. This is also fundamental to Ismailism, it is part of the beginning statement of the Ismaili Constitution that applies to all Ismailis worldwide.
But, we are not going to build bridges at the expense of our faith, this is not allowed by our Imam. I suggest that you study the Farmans of the current Imam pertaining to Bridge building and under which circumstances it is allowed and under which it is not allowed.
We can not hide what is fundamental to our Faith and which has been recorded not only in History but also in the British Court by our own Imam and his advocated.
There is no place in Ismailism for cowards and for people who live in fear of others when we have with us our Imam of The Time.
Admin
But, we are not going to build bridges at the expense of our faith, this is not allowed by our Imam. I suggest that you study the Farmans of the current Imam pertaining to Bridge building and under which circumstances it is allowed and under which it is not allowed.
We can not hide what is fundamental to our Faith and which has been recorded not only in History but also in the British Court by our own Imam and his advocated.
There is no place in Ismailism for cowards and for people who live in fear of others when we have with us our Imam of The Time.
Admin
Admin wrote:We do accept prophet Muhammed (PBUH) as our LAST Prophet. This is also fundamental to Ismailism, it is part of the beginning statement of the Ismaili Constitution that applies to all Ismailis worldwide.
But, we are not going to build bridges at the expense of our faith, this is not allowed by our Imam. I suggest that you study the Farmans of the current Imam pertaining to Bridge building and under which circumstances it is allowed and under which it is not allowed.
We can not hide what is fundamental to our Faith and which has been recorded not only in History but also in the British Court by our own Imam and his advocated.
There is no place in Ismailism for cowards and for people who live in fear of others when we have with us our Imam of The Time.
Admin
I am an Ismaili, not sure if you know that by the aggressive tone of yours. I agree with the notion of having with us our Imam of the Time. I also agree with you that we cannot build bridges at the expense of our faith, of course not, and never should we. But calling MHI as a Prophet and ridiculing us as Ismailis is also not acceptable either (which of course you are not commenting here at all). I am not sure how you take us, and I mean us as Ismailis, if you believe us being part of the larger Ummah, is your belief. But the fact remains that as we are Ismaili Muslim, we are part of an Ummah and there are many ignorant Ismailis that make ridiculous statement and putting our Beloved MHI in very awkward position at many times. We should educate our brothers and sisters to be careful in making such statements. And our Imam expects us to be role models. That is all I was doing.
Noted. Sorry for the harsh sounding post, no aggresivity was intended.
Obviously we are part of the Ummah. And I do not approve people saying our Imam is a Prophet, that is not our belief, as I said our Ismaili Constitution does contradict that position. Imam is Imam, not prophet. There are many level at which to consider and understand Imamat, it is not a matter of ignorance. To each one his faith - so does say the Quran and so did our Imam quote that verse in one of his Farman.
Various interpretation by individuals from the Ismaili Community do not give to other Muslims the right to criticise us as a Community or make mockeries of our individual beliefs. Pluralism is part of Islam.
First we are Muslim. And then we have gone higher, we have become Ismailis.
Obviously we are part of the Ummah. And I do not approve people saying our Imam is a Prophet, that is not our belief, as I said our Ismaili Constitution does contradict that position. Imam is Imam, not prophet. There are many level at which to consider and understand Imamat, it is not a matter of ignorance. To each one his faith - so does say the Quran and so did our Imam quote that verse in one of his Farman.
Various interpretation by individuals from the Ismaili Community do not give to other Muslims the right to criticise us as a Community or make mockeries of our individual beliefs. Pluralism is part of Islam.
First we are Muslim. And then we have gone higher, we have become Ismailis.
Asal Ghat Paat ji Dua
Khojki manuscript at Harvard. Online version here
http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/13702731
Khojki manuscript at Harvard. Online version here
http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/13702731
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
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- Contact:
Thank you so much for sharing this.Admin wrote:Asal Ghat Paat ji Dua
Khojki manuscript at Harvard. Online version here
http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/13702731
I read this topic and this is my personal observation and not a reply or a conflict with momins on this Issue.
Firstly we have know of our Imam at different level of faith,
At Tariqat level He is a Imam as a Human being,subjected to geo political compulsions
,government and sentiments other fellow Moslems.
So the changes are cosmetic in nature,but the essence remains the same for a Haqiqati Momin.
the word ALLAH itself isa mystery by itself,It got proclaimed in Arabic Language. Why the most intelligent entity in the Universe (GOD) choose this as a final name, needs to be explored.
It is ALI+LAH and LAH word is arabic is noting.
the word Allah by default is ALI,take it r leave it.
In simple maths
1+0=1 or 0+1=1.
as for faith of Nuseri ,which should be hall mark of us all Ismailis, It was a verbal declaration of haqiqat made in front of Moula ALI,seen at Tariqat level by others.
we can even shorten the relativety by breaking the word Allah
the haqiqati word of ALI ALLAH or ALIULALLAH
and move to Marifat level
by one word of Ali +Lah is ALI.
at this level one word ALLAH is enough to believe in ALI and not
two word of Ali n Allah in relative basis.
there is debate,unhapinees in dilution of faith in prouncement to two
word relativity.
Either way
1=0=1 or 0+1=1.
for me one was always one,even before Koran was bestowed upon Earth.
AB TO ALI
AUR ALI ,SIRF ALI ALI ALI.
Firstly we have know of our Imam at different level of faith,
At Tariqat level He is a Imam as a Human being,subjected to geo political compulsions
,government and sentiments other fellow Moslems.
So the changes are cosmetic in nature,but the essence remains the same for a Haqiqati Momin.
the word ALLAH itself isa mystery by itself,It got proclaimed in Arabic Language. Why the most intelligent entity in the Universe (GOD) choose this as a final name, needs to be explored.
It is ALI+LAH and LAH word is arabic is noting.
the word Allah by default is ALI,take it r leave it.
In simple maths
1+0=1 or 0+1=1.
as for faith of Nuseri ,which should be hall mark of us all Ismailis, It was a verbal declaration of haqiqat made in front of Moula ALI,seen at Tariqat level by others.
we can even shorten the relativety by breaking the word Allah
the haqiqati word of ALI ALLAH or ALIULALLAH
and move to Marifat level
by one word of Ali +Lah is ALI.
at this level one word ALLAH is enough to believe in ALI and not
two word of Ali n Allah in relative basis.
there is debate,unhapinees in dilution of faith in prouncement to two
word relativity.
Either way
1=0=1 or 0+1=1.
for me one was always one,even before Koran was bestowed upon Earth.
AB TO ALI
AUR ALI ,SIRF ALI ALI ALI.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
And where did you come up with this baba nuseri ??it is ALI+LAH and LAH word is arabic is noting.
the word Allah by default is ALI,take it r leave it.
The word Allah is derived from "AL" = THE and "ILLAH" = DIETY
So Allah = The Diety
remember the words "LA ILLAH ILA ALLAH "??? which means there is no DEITY, except for God (Allah)
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Right !!!...But what you forget is that the name allah is not chosen by you, me or the imam's....Instead, its the supreme deity himself who chose that name...And in arabic my dear admin people use the term AL = THE in referring to most of the things....like,If Allah was Al Illah, people would call him Illah and not Allah.
Al Furqan
Al Saud etc etc
What is interesting is that there is no plural of "allah"...Just like we have "god" and "goddess".
Admin bhai should also note that Allah is the personal name of the supreme deity in ARAMAIC/ARAMIC [spell check here] the language of prophet jesus [as]
Hmmm...you're right !!!...These are the same people who can barely understand the meaning of Allah or where did it come from and call themselves above muslims.Amongst the most interesting interpretations of the word, is one by Corbin but I guess this would be too high level to understand for many of us here who have not even tasted the basic flavour of the meaning of Imam.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
To Admin:
Excellent reply,Whether the other blogger is a regular practicing Ismaili or a Khoja Ishnasari? is a greater mystery.
Simple things on earth are the most difficult to understand.
A human being is simple to know,but to know him as GOD is difficult.
The word Allah is simple but difficult to understand.
Our Kalima is easy to recite but very difficult to understand, Even Imam
SMS has said on understanding of it in Totality.
What is written in Koran is there,but what is to be understood is only blessed in our Shia Sufi traditions to understand the Baatin (Esoteric) essence of it.
Our Baatin interpretation and conviction will most definitely look amusing and annoying to Shariatis.(Their hallmark is Beard,Burqa and a blast somewhere and nothing more like the word LAA in Arabic and everything is black about them).
Excellent reply,Whether the other blogger is a regular practicing Ismaili or a Khoja Ishnasari? is a greater mystery.
Simple things on earth are the most difficult to understand.
A human being is simple to know,but to know him as GOD is difficult.
The word Allah is simple but difficult to understand.
Our Kalima is easy to recite but very difficult to understand, Even Imam
SMS has said on understanding of it in Totality.
What is written in Koran is there,but what is to be understood is only blessed in our Shia Sufi traditions to understand the Baatin (Esoteric) essence of it.
Our Baatin interpretation and conviction will most definitely look amusing and annoying to Shariatis.(Their hallmark is Beard,Burqa and a blast somewhere and nothing more like the word LAA in Arabic and everything is black about them).